Vindicator

[Buran.3796]

2 hours ago, Sereath.1428 said:

And I know why CM©️ whoever "balances" this game mode, did it:
They simply want vindi players to 

   Which Vindi players?

   This thread seems already too long for a spec nobody plays in a prefession largely absent from MATs...  I'm not moaning, I think is ok for a Rev to have this low profile in PvP after 7 years of dominance,  but feels like we are talking about how Firebrand is broken at PvP.

[Buran.3796]

6 minutes ago, Sereath.1428 said:

, it's only 4k with full glass cannon (Devastation). Playing without Salvation nowadays feels terrible.

   Devastation is  PvE  trait line that barely anyone uses in PvP.

   The way PvP choices works is well known and had been a norm for years: you select what seems that works, it get nerfed, you move to another until everything is garbage and then everyone uses rune od Divinity not because was good, but evcause everything else was terrible.

   With a game mode with no boon duration, barely any variety in gear, boons nerfed to nothingness...  For a Rev is hard to run Devastation or Retribution, because those traitlines do nothing. Invocation would probably always be used, because is thematically agnostic, but Salvation was used due was the less bad option. And I say "was" because most Rev at PvP moved to other professions.

[Sereath.1428]

43 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Devastation is  PvE  trait line that barely anyone uses in PvP.

   The way PvP choices works is well known and had been a norm for years: you select what seems that works, it get nerfed, you move to another until everything is garbage and then everyone uses rune od Divinity not because was good, but evcause everything else was terrible.

   With a game mode with no boon duration, barely any variety in gear, boons nerfed to nothingness...  For a Rev is hard to run Devastation or Retribution, because those traitlines do nothing. Invocation would probably always be used, because is thematically agnostic, but Salvation was used due was the less bad option. And I say "was" because most Rev at PvP moved to other professions.

Yup, correct.
They do like to nerf things hard enough so that they never have worry about them later, they really think that they can somehow permanently balance things. As if perfect balance was a thing.

Most of my fav players/streamers who played Revenant have either left the game (frostball99) or switched to something else a while ago. I miss Boyce playing Power Herald, so entertaining to watch, but for a while now even he can't do enough for a team with it.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Sereath.1428

[Burnfall.9573]

On 10/7/2023 at 5:20 PM, Riba.3271 said:

Scorpion wire isn't AoE pull. (Also it has much slower travel time and can be reflected unless combined with Basilisk Venom)

I don't really get your point.

 

9 hours ago, Sereath.1428 said:

It is obviously "riskier" to play Death Drop than Imperial Impact or Saint's Shield.
But that doesn't change the fact that one is significantly more impactful on the field than the rest, most of the time.

4k damage + 15% damage buff
vs
0.5 seconds of protection + 2 stacks of might
vs
500 heal + 500 barrier
After all, the best defence is a good offence.
(and obviously roleplay heal vindi takes saints shield, I know that)

It's bad game design to have multiple options, but in the end have one that is simply way above the rest in most situations.
If you put a playstyle into the game (traits, weapons) then the expectation is to at least attempt to make them all equally competent. Otherwise it's dead content. 
(The thing is for devs to at least try, because ofc it would be impossible to make everything as effective. To show interest by experimenting more each patch.)
Balancing a whole spec around a single thing is terrible design as well, such as engineers taking grenades for almost everything, guardians with the mandatory Renewed Focus, etc.

And this is a critic for the whole game, because as I said, many classes suffer from this: Complete trait-lines dead, useless weapons in every game mode, and so on.

 

Toxicity to Bad Design, "What you put your energy into, is what comes back to you"

[ccccc.4963]

Who is the best vindi player 

[magickthief.6492]

48 minutes ago, ccccc.4963 said:

Who is the best vindi player 

Golden Potato.0420

[Flowki.7194]

21 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

The damage dodge part is only on the end and can sometimes even be avoided. So if you sacrifice dodges for damage, you get punished. If you use it for dodging only, it does damage if you hit the target unless you're kiting it isn't. So if kiting, you lose damage and no extra sustain from the other vindi dodge traitlines and more vulnerable because of it. It is a double edged blade many times at cost of dps and sustain. The damage after last patch nerfs on it makes it not too much, unless you go full invo/devastation traits, but then you are squishy.

 

Yes I accept all of that, however it still does not sit right with me that you can setup damage while evading an attack. I have a general issue with all such abilitys like that, evades into a 3-6k crit, chrono invuln into god knows how much dmg, etc. I personally prefere mechanics that are seperate, you are either doing damage, mitigating/escaping, or healing, but unfortunately in gw2 many abilitys do 2 or 3 major mechanics/effects at once, which imo is quite a casual system and devolves the game into a 5 button burstfest (which it is).

 

It such a strange game in that the dodge system has such a high skill floor/celing, yet the application of damage has an incredibly low skill floor in general. This then isnt suprising that specs who can get away with more ''facetanking'' from their core mechanics, are a lot more effective for moderate effort compared to specs that melt for that, which then lends itself to all the 5 button bunker specs. Well, aside from the vindi dodge, its moderately hard to play, and its sustain is moderately hard at least, so I have no issues with it or rev overall.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[arazoth.7290]

50 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Yes I accept all of that, however it still does not sit right with me that you can setup damage while evading an attack. I have a general issue with all such abilitys like that, evades into a 3-6k crit, chrono invuln into god knows how much dmg, etc. I personally prefere mechanics that are seperate, you are either doing damage, mitigating/escaping, or healing, but unfortunately in gw2 many abilitys do 2 or 3 major mechanics/effects at once, which imo is quite a casual system and devolves the game into a 5 button burstfest (which it is).

 

It such a strange game in that the dodge system has such a high skill floor/celing, yet the application of damage has an incredibly low skill floor in general. This then isnt suprising that specs who can get away with more ''facetanking'' from their core mechanics, are a lot more effective for moderate effort compared to specs that melt for that, which then lends itself to all the 5 button bunker specs. Well, aside from the vindi dodge, its moderately hard to play, and its sustain is moderately hard at least, so I have no issues with it or rev overall.

The moment this gets removed, vindicator will get in return big buffs to weapon and alliance stance back to compensate and then they do too much damage while going tanky traited. Just leave it as it is, it works and many don't mind it and some like it. If you don't like to play with that trait, there are builds or specs since you have no problem with rev overal. Redesigning how that one is atm at the cost of bigger imbalances isn't worth it

[ArthurDent.9538]

2 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Yes I accept all of that, however it still does not sit right with me that you can setup damage while evading an attack. I have a general issue with all such abilitys like that, evades into a 3-6k crit, chrono invuln into god knows how much dmg, etc. I personally prefere mechanics that are seperate, you are either doing damage, mitigating/escaping, or healing, but unfortunately in gw2 many abilitys do 2 or 3 major mechanics/effects at once, which imo is quite a casual system and devolves the game into a 5 button burstfest (which it is).

Most all builds look for ways in which they can attack while being protected from counterattack. This can take the form of evading while attacking like vindi does, but also applying blinds, aegis, barrier, disabling the enemy with cc, applying weakness, opening from stealth, out ranging the target, etc. Having safe attack windows allows for skilled outplaying to be possible as players attempt to maximize value during their strong windows while minimizing their opponent's ability to do the same. Without these windows, fights would come down to whatever build has the most damage+sustain and warrior would just always win in the current state. Vindi tends to be lacking in most of these options such as all gs skills are melee and leave them vulnerable to counterattack and it has very limited cc options. What it does have is a bit of damage at the end of its dodge which helps to compensate its other deficiencies but as it currently stands it is clearly not even close to dominating the meta.

[Flowki.7194]

2 hours ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

Most all builds look for ways in which they can attack while being protected from counterattack. This can take the form of evading while attacking like vindi does, but also applying blinds, aegis, barrier, disabling the enemy with cc, applying weakness, opening from stealth, out ranging the target, etc. Having safe attack windows allows for skilled outplaying to be possible as players attempt to maximize value during their strong windows while minimizing their opponent's ability to do the same. Without these windows, fights would come down to whatever build has the most damage+sustain and warrior would just always win in the current state. Vindi tends to be lacking in most of these options such as all gs skills are melee and leave them vulnerable to counterattack and it has very limited cc options. What it does have is a bit of damage at the end of its dodge which helps to compensate its other deficiencies but as it currently stands it is clearly not even close to dominating the meta.

 

Im not just talking about vindi, a lot of specs have evades/immunes that do dmg during it, or like a mili second after it, Im against all of it. Warrior is one of the biggest offenders of what I dislike, attacking while taking 0 dmg back, AND (more importantly) its attacking mechanics come with clense/boonrip/healing simply as a bonus for doing damage. This has led to some of the most degenerate simple playstyles that are way too effective for the effort; Blade sworne sustain, Zerker damage, SPB stun uptime.

 

Focusing in on zerker. I picked this back up the other day, and my god.. how can something so simple be so effective in both damage and sustain. It isn't right, and its the product of allowing so few buttons to do many things. To achieve what zerker can in terms of damage and sustain on both power cata, and vindi, its worlds apart in effort.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Sereath.1428]

Yeah like I said, my criticism was for the whole game, with other classes as well. 

Definitely don't touch Death Drop without redistributing some of its damage between GS and Alliance skills.
(Herald can't even run GS anyway, so no problem there, it folds without staff and can't stick to targets without swords)
Because revenant really has nothing else going for it at the moment.

And there's a big difference between "balance" being about giving everyone equal access to unhealthy mechanics
(fields of pulsing CC/damage, irradiating conditions all around you, ranged CC, immunities, stealth, no cast times, etc)

and good design.

And that is directly reflected by how enjoyable most people will find the game to be, which if it gets to the point where it is fun enough, people will just play regardless of the rewards and content.

That's why, at first, I had no problem pointing out what I thought was poorly thought-out with my preferred class. I see the same problems with other classes.

Anyway

Quote

Definitely don't touch Death Drop without redistributing some of its damage between GS and Alliance skills.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Sereath.1428

[arazoth.7290]

Let me tell how this will go.

 

Arenanet reads title, and see many complaints but don't read it through. They will think vindicator needs more dodge nerfs on damage or higher cds or whatever their creative nerfing is.

This is how it usually goes 

[Sereath.1428]

25 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Let me tell how this will go.

 

Arenanet reads title, and see many complaints but don't read it through. They will think vindicator needs more dodge nerfs on damage or higher cds or whatever their creative nerfing is.

This is how it usually goes 

It is, I just wanted to make things clear one more time.
So that's it for me now.
 

Spoiler

Maybe I should have just cried hard about everything I don't like without elaborating further, zero specifics, like most people here who instead come up with imaginary builds and scenarios, because that's the kind of feedback that seems to make it into the game.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Sereath.1428

[Sahne.6950]

13 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Let me tell how this will go.

Arenanet reads title, and see many complaints but don't read it through.

Let me tell how this will go.

Arenanet doesnt read the forums.

 

 

end of the story.