Warrior's status

[Zekent.3652]

Spellbreaker needs an overhaul:

1. Every single meditation skill sucks, is hard nerfed or just lacking, apart from Featherfoot Grace and it's barely used since they nerfed the resistance boon anyways.
2. Winds and spellbreaker in general is overnerfed for WvW zergs.
3. This class was built with One Wolf Pack elite in mind and that's probably why this class dps was low on PvE for years.
4. The heal skill is a joke, removing your own boons...
5. The elite has really low impact.
6. Healbreaker's pvp "golden age" was a joke, it was clearly forced, nothing on spellbreaker really promotes the role and when it was meta, it was tiring for warrior mains because it was in almost every match and the system forces you to match similar popular classes, which was just bad if you didn't wanted to play as support as warrior (really, who picks a warrior to be a support in a MMO?)

Warrior wasn't meant to be a support, if you really wanna make builds like healbreaker a thing at least put some real effort on it, especially for a momment of the game where everyone now gets the support role, warrior clearly wasn't meant to be a support class in any gamemode and there are a lot of examples like this one:

Which is fine, but in a game where everyone gets teleports, good ranged resources for their ranged builds, everyone being able to be a support, warrior is clearly NOT aging well here, while this class gets changes like rifle 4 dodging first and a second later doing another action, Flurry that can't be cancelled with another weapon skill, and the worst thief skill animation on berserker's dagger burst, other classes gets a shortbow that shoots and also dodges at the same time (thief's shortbow) and our Arcing Slice animation to reduce the aftercast of their weapon skill (guardian's greatsword 5)

The only times they ever did something with warrior's animations, was meant to be a nerf (Eviscerate, core mace F1, headbutt, etc) or just badly done like rifle 4.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Zizekent.2398
Typos

[WingSwipe.3084]

Think a lot of people have stated it pretty concisely.

Warriors kit is still stuck in the 2012 GW2 era design while every other profession just seems to move forward. 
A lot of our kit and weapon skills are clunky, slow, telegraphed and have shady hit connection/registering. From my experience with other professions warrior feels very outdated.

Id honestly say you need to be substantially more skill with warrior as a profession to get the same level of use out of it as compared to other professions.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

Okay, so I'm a mesmer main and I never really understood the grab-a-sword-and-get-punched-in-the-face classes, but I am have a lot of gaming experience and years as a DM/GM, so I figured I'd weigh in. 

Ever heard of Linear Fighters/Quadratic Wizards? Its a trope that came from Dungeons and Dragons but it's application is wide. Basically, the magic casters power grows really slow and fighters outclass them early on. Later though as the wizards get more spells, bigger and badder spells, slashing, bashing, and stabbing just pales in comparison.

The problem as I see it is that we're stuck in the endgame. Playing core, pre level 80, as a warrior is pretty easy. You have the heaviest armor, the most hit points. You're a tank. But sooner or later you cap out. Level 80. Other classes have big AOE spells, or armies of minions, or tricks that make them harder to fight. But you're still bashing things with a sword. And what did we get with Scarlets War? More endgame content. LWS2? More endgame content. HoT? More endgame. LWS3? PoF? LWS4? IBS? EoD? You're still running around desperately trying to hit something with a stick.

The way I see it, and mind you I am biased, the warrior is a sword in a rifles world(yes I know they can use rifles. It's a metaphor). Every event boils down roughly to pile onto a single target and unleash all the AOEs you have. But you don't have any. I do think it's accurate to say the game moved on and the warrior got left behind. You did. What the warrior really needed was some way to multiply. Multiply it's damage, multiply its range, something. Imagine a warrior with, say, the Revenant ability to call dead warriors. Maybe something like Elementalist summoning so that you could summon another fighter for, say, 60 seconds. A DPS summoning, Condition summoning, ranged summoning, and maybe a footsoldier squad for the elite. Now yoyr warrior can attack more that one target, deal more damage, spread out damage taken since there are more targets, and be a real force on the battlefield. But instead you got gunblades and a point blank pistol.

 

The warriors status is probably irrelevant because it hasn't been allowed to grow.  It's been pigeon holed into do the same thing in a different way ever since HoT. Now as I said, I'm biased. I don't really understand how the soldier professions play. But this is my best understanding and until we solve this...I just don't see the point in warriors outside of meat shields and damage sponges.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Stop speaking true things

[Buran.3796]

22 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

The warriors status is probably irrelevant because it hasn't been allowed to grow.  It's been pigeon holed into do the same thing in a different way ever since HoT. Now as I said, I'm biased. I don't really understand how the soldier professions play. 

   Bladesworn and Berserker are really powerful in solo OW, not top tier but easily no less than one or two steps behind. Berserker absolutely is meta in PvP. At WvW Warrior has solid (but not top) roaming builds and very good in zergs and better in havoc squads.

   The main weakness in the class is that when specs arrived they started having trade offs (Berserker dealt more damage but had armor debuffs, Spellbreaker had phenomenal defenses but weaker burst, Bladesworn limited your weapon variety and gameplay...  Some of those handicaps were reverted when ANet chose to move to a more streamlined design with less debuffs, but for the Warrior some of the changes weren't as easy as removing the -300 thoughness for Berserkers...   As result, some specs feels a bit repetitive and Spellbreaker in general seems lackluster and every Bladesworn build is the same and changing traits and weapons doesn't have much effect in its gameplay.

   Must add, anyway, that is not the only one: Dragonhunter also seems lacking in relation to other Guardian specs, or Tempest, Untamed, Scrapper...

[KryTiKaL.3125]

1 hour ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Bladesworn and Berserker are really powerful in solo OW, not top tier but easily no less than one or two steps behind. Berserker absolutely is meta in PvP. At WvW Warrior has solid (but not top) roaming builds and very good in zergs and better in havoc squads.

   The main weakness in the class is that when specs arrived they started having trade offs (Berserker dealt more damage but had armor debuffs, Spellbreaker had phenomenal defenses but weaker burst, Bladesworn limited your weapon variety and gameplay...  Some of those handicaps were reverted when ANet chose to move to a more streamlined design with less debuffs, but for the Warrior some of the changes weren't as easy as removing the -300 thoughness for Berserkers...   As result, some specs feels a bit repetitive and Spellbreaker in general seems lackluster and every Bladesworn build is the same and changing traits and weapons doesn't have much effect in its gameplay.

   Must add, anyway, that is not the only one: Dragonhunter also seems lacking in relation to other Guardian specs, or Tempest, Untamed, Scrapper...

Actually just a bit of a correction here; none of the Elite Specs launched with the infamous "trade offs" I think you are referring to. Berserker did not launch with the -300 Toughness, or anything similar. Spellbreaker also did not launch with "weaker bursts" actually, they effectively had two bursts and Full Counter was actually doing the PvE damage it does now but also in PvP/WvW.

Elite Specs were just straight upgrades to Core classes across the board. They still are. The trade offs I believe you are referring to came in 2019/2020 when ANet tried rolling out a progressive endeavor for this "philosophy" of not having Elite Specs just be direct upgrades to Core classes, that they would come with trade offs so that they would be more of a horizontal path rather than a vertical one. The problem that was run into was that this did not get applied to every class nearly quickly enough and they abandoned that philosophy, so it left the ones that it was applied to (Berserker, Spellbreaker, Mirage, Soulbeast, and a few others) feeling weaker and just overall worse until they actually worked on reversing these trade offs eventually.

Again, they did not launch like that. Also if you think Tempest, Untamed and Scrapper are "lacking" in relation to other Elite Specs that would be...incorrect. Especially with Condi being as it is right now, and Scrapper can run perma Superspeed, my friend, along with good boon uptime and good damage either with grenades or a combination of that with hammer. Dragonhunter...maybe, but its also Guardian and so it has on demand Aegis, Blinds, potent area denial and the usual go to invuln. All very useful tools.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

I just need then to commit to either philosophy instead of  awkwardly trying to create a role in a way that isn't usable.

If warrior doesn't provide team support, fine. Let it do stupid levels of selfish damage and call it a day. 

If warrior is going to provide team support, fine. Make that support usable as part of a build that can protect a team and itself instead of having to pick one. 

 

On 10/10/2023 at 4:37 PM, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

The problem that was run into was that this did not get applied to every class nearly quickly enough and they abandoned that philosophy, so it left the ones that it was applied to (Berserker, Spellbreaker, Mirage, Soulbeast, and a few others) feeling weaker and just overall worse until they actually worked on reversing these trade offs eventually.

Exactly. 

[Kalthea.4326]

Warrior has been intended to do support since the game launched, which is why we have TWO base skill-lines that are support focused, those being Shouts and Banners. I never really understood why people think that Warriors can't support just because they're the front-liner?

But besides that, the issues with Warrior stem from, like others have said, just a really poor design philosophy. ANET can't seem to make up their mind as to whether or not they want Warrior to be purely front-line, or have some aspects of support or what, and it just causes it to be a horrible mess of abilities that are sub-par when compared to other professions.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 hours ago, Kalthea.4326 said:

Warrior has been intended to do support since the game launched, which is why we have TWO base skill-lines that are support focused, those being Shouts and Banners. I never really understood why people think that Warriors can't support just because they're the front-liner?

But besides that, the issues with Warrior stem from, like others have said, just a really poor design philosophy. ANET can't seem to make up their mind as to whether or not they want Warrior to be purely front-line, or have some aspects of support or what, and it just causes it to be a horrible mess of abilities that are sub-par when compared to other professions.

This.

EVERY PROFESSION was designed at the beginning to have support capabilities. The main issue with warrior is that it never had a suitable support main hand weapon. Since then, it's support has languished.

There are things that can be down with the current traits and weapons to alleviate this, but the lack of a proper MH or 2H support weapon will always hold that back.

A list of what I would do, with support in mind.

• CORE
• Change Sundering Bursts to cast "On My Mark!" on foes struck by a burst (I am not sorry Azure).
  • This will proc healing from Vigorous Shouts if it is also taken.
• Change Restorative Strength to cast "For Great Justice!" on heal. Use the PvE version in all game modes.
  • Same reasoning as above, also gives more might and fury to the group.
• Remove the ICD from Marching Orders.
  • This ICD has no place other than to inhibit the other traits, decouple and balance accordingly.
• Soldiers Comfort changed:
  • Soldiers Comfort: Heal allies for 250 (0.1 scaling) when using a burst skill. Heal for increased amounts and scaling based on the amount of adrenaline consumed
  • Tier 1: 250 (0.1)
  • Tier 2: 500 (0.25)
  • Tier 3: 750 (0.75)
  • Numbers can be adjusted as needed for PvP, but those should work for PvE and WvW.
    • SC needs to be the workhorse healing in absence of a 2H or MH support weapon. But it needs to be low base/high scaling. If the numbers there are too potent, then reduce the base lower, but raise the scaling higher.
• Shrug it Off: Conditions removed increased from 1 to 3
  • There is no reason for this to be stuck at 1, that is a hold over from when "Shake it Off" only cleansed 1 condi and this was a copy of it.
• Mending Might: Changed to heal allies you grant might to. Same amounts as before.
  • Support needs chip healing, this would provide it in abundance. This also would nerf certain bunker builds that run Tactics as it would lessen the warrior's self healing.
• Martial Cadence: Changed to add 3s of Protection granted to allies in addition to it's previous effects. Trait has a direct CD of 10s (note that this is stability in PvE and quickness in WvW/PvP for those that only play one game mode)
  • One thing that warrior support lacks is AoE protection, and since we are not getting a proper support espec, this is where I would put it in core.
• SPELLBREAKER
• Guard Counter: This now grants it's protection in an AoE
• Revenge Counter: This now grants also grants resolution in addition to resistance, both in an AoE.
• Natural Healing: Healing remains the same. Remove up to 4 boons from foes in the area, cleanse up to 4 conditions from allies in the area.
• Feather Foot Grace: Now Stunbreaks allies. Grants Superspeed and Resistance to allies in the area. This skill now has 2 ammo. 10s CD between uses, 30s recharge.
• Imminent Threat: This skill grants 10 adrenaline on use instead of per foe affected and recharges Full Counter.

[Fueki.4753]

5 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

A list of what I would do, with support in mind.

• CORE
• Change Sundering Bursts to cast "On My Mark!" on foes struck by a burst (I am not sorry Azure).
  • This will proc healing from Vigorous Shouts if it is also taken.
• Change Restorative Strength to cast "For Great Justice!" on heal. Use the PvE version in all game modes.
  • Same reasoning as above, also gives more might and fury to the group.
• Remove the ICD from Marching Orders.
  • This ICD has no place other than to inhibit the other traits, decouple and balance accordingly.
• Soldiers Comfort changed:
  • Soldiers Comfort: Heal allies for 250 (0.1 scaling) when using a burst skill. Heal for increased amounts and scaling based on the amount of adrenaline consumed
  • Tier 1: 250 (0.1)
  • Tier 2: 500 (0.25)
  • Tier 3: 750 (0.75)
  • Numbers can be adjusted as needed for PvP, but those should work for PvE and WvW.
    • SC needs to be the workhorse healing in absence of a 2H or MH support weapon. But it needs to be low base/high scaling. If the numbers there are too potent, then reduce the base lower, but raise the scaling higher.
• Shrug it Off: Conditions removed increased from 1 to 3
  • There is no reason for this to be stuck at 1, that is a hold over from when "Shake it Off" only cleansed 1 condi and this was a copy of it.
• Mending Might: Changed to heal allies you grant might to. Same amounts as before.
  • Support needs chip healing, this would provide it in abundance. This also would nerf certain bunker builds that run Tactics as it would lessen the warrior's self healing.
• Martial Cadence: Changed to add 3s of Protection granted to allies in addition to it's previous effects. Trait has a direct CD of 10s (note that this is stability in PvE and quickness in WvW/PvP for those that only play one game mode)
  • One thing that warrior support lacks is AoE protection, and since we are not getting a proper support espec, this is where I would put it in core.

Can we also add the removal of the particle effect that is "granted" by Soldier's Focus/Marching Orders to the list?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Can we also add the removal of the particle effect that is "granted" by Soldier's Focus/Marching Orders to the list?

That would be better as a system toggle and you know it.

[Fueki.4753]

10 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

That would be better as a system toggle and you know it.

But Arenanet doesn't like giving options, so it'd would be either one or the other for everyone.

No amount of improvements would make me take Tactics, as long as the particle effect is there.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

5 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

But Arenanet doesn't like giving options, so it'd would be either one or the other for everyone.

No amount of improvements would make me take Tactics, as long as the particle effect is there.

I know what you are saying, but  a particle effect being removed is best done at the system level in the options menu. They've already have turning off ally effects as an option, so it isn't much of a stretch for them to do this with self particle effects.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

7 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I know what you are saying, but  a particle effect being removed is best done at the system level in the options menu. They've already have turning off ally effects as an option, so it isn't much of a stretch for them to do this with self particle effects.

Problem being they might not let you choose and the infusions you're using could be included in that.

I'd say they need to put a higher priority on actual colorblind options if we are talking about QoL changes. Because it has been 11 years and WvW teams are still Green/Red/Blue and the most common form of colorblindness is red-green deficiency. So it would be real nice to not roll the dice on trying to glide off of something high in either the red or green borderlands without needing to physically check the objective ownership of any particular area you are in.

But anyway...