mes needs a 5 target big spike melee weapon not another 900-1200 range weapon

[Curunen.8729]

26 minutes ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

As in literally just a reskin of the Revenant Short bow skills.

I was thinking of rev shortbow, and have no problem with that in pink bullets with butterflies.

Main thing is I would like to be able to deal good damage with it if built right - ie if on mirage or chrono to have the option of playing like a deadeye with detarget/ports/other utility and a clone firing squad. I really do not want ally targeting skills and healing, unless they are an optional choice to build for.

Scepter overlaps with Dagger, and tbh here GS does not have that great ranged potential without shatters or on mirage ambush spam.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

41 minutes ago, Curunen.8729 said:

I was thinking of rev shortbow, and have no problem with that in pink bullets with butterflies.

Main thing is I would like to be able to deal good damage with it if built right - ie if on mirage or chrono to have the option of playing like a deadeye with detarget/ports/other utility and a clone firing squad. I really do not want ally targeting skills and healing, unless they are an optional choice to build for.

Scepter overlaps with Dagger, and tbh here GS does not have that great ranged potential without shatters or on mirage ambush spam.

Greatsword has the double whirly Phantasms and the high damage AOE.

Mirror Blade even if it bounced perfectly would only get 2 or 3 hits on a single target with less damage each hit.

This Mirror Blade bounces if there are any other targets in the area so you don't have to be in melee to get the bounces.

 

Greatsword Mesmer is not a melee weapon but it doesn't suffer from being at short range.

It is still the highest DPS power weapon the Mesmer has and it really is not a melee weapon.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

4 hours ago, Curunen.8729 said:

I was thinking of rev shortbow, and have no problem with that in pink bullets with butterflies.

Main thing is I would like to be able to deal good damage with it if built right - ie if on mirage or chrono to have the option of playing like a deadeye with detarget/ports/other utility and a clone firing squad. I really do not want ally targeting skills and healing, unless they are an optional choice to build for.

Scepter overlaps with Dagger, and tbh here GS does not have that great ranged potential without shatters or on mirage ambush spam.

If I'm fighting more than one enemy I don't want to be in melee range because i want all the bouncing in the Mirror Blade to go between the enemies and not to waste bounces on myself.

If you have any allies around then adding your character in melee range will just be reducing the hits on the enemy also.

 

Can you explain how the Greatsword is a melee weapon or is it just an artifact of fighting against the Golem all by yourself that it seems to make a difference? I just don't see that making a statistical impact in real fights.

[Teknomancer.4895]

On 10/24/2023 at 6:03 PM, Blur.3465 said:

I don't like dagger swinging animations, they kill the majestic vibe for mesmer.

The annoying hooting noise it makes renders it near-unusable for me. The sound itself grates on my ears and absurdly makes me feel like I'm throwing invisible owls at everything.

[Blur.3465]

I'm really just waiting for the day when:
Sword/Focus
Scepter/Focus
Sword/Torch
Scepter/Torch
Will be VIABLE options in PvE (Raids/Fractals) on Mesmer. 

Until then, I'm just going to stick to Staff/Staff Mirage and hope.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

I dunno what we're getting but I know what I'd like to see and that's overwhelming firepower. That is, the 1 should either be single shot or burst shot. I don't care if it has conditions on it and in fact I dont' think it needs them. We need to have some kind of CC shot since it should be long range and we should keep it long range. And I'd like to see some rapid fire on it, just because I want to see four of me just gunning things down.

But overall, what should the rifle be? I think it should be a critical weapon. We've already got a power greatsword, and staff and dagger are pretty condi-licious, but I think we should have a weapon that really fits into the crit build slot. Just build it all around precision and ferocity and let those players that want to have a glass cannon build go to town. 

[ShadowKatt.6740]

5 hours ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

The annoying hooting noise it makes renders it near-unusable for me. The sound itself grates on my ears

Ditto for Guardian scepter. I can't make myself use it.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

12 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

I dunno what we're getting but I know what I'd like to see and that's overwhelming firepower. That is, the 1 should either be single shot or burst shot. I don't care if it has conditions on it and in fact I dont' think it needs them. We need to have some kind of CC shot since it should be long range and we should keep it long range. And I'd like to see some rapid fire on it, just because I want to see four of me just gunning things down.

But overall, what should the rifle be? I think it should be a critical weapon. We've already got a power greatsword, and staff and dagger are pretty condi-licious, but I think we should have a weapon that really fits into the crit build slot. Just build it all around precision and ferocity and let those players that want to have a glass cannon build go to town. 

Dagger is actually a power weapon, it turns into a condi weapon on Virtuoso because of a trait but the meta power chrono build actually uses dagger alongside greatsword. I just want Condi rifle because there isn't a single class that uses rifle in condi builds right now. 

[draxynnic.3719]

On the revenant shortbow thing, I think it is worth noting that people had been discussing that sort of style as something mesmer MH pistol might have before revenant was even unveiled. So it's more convergent evolution than copying.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

1 hour ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

I dunno what we're getting but I know what I'd like to see and that's overwhelming firepower. That is, the 1 should either be single shot or burst shot. I don't care if it has conditions on it and in fact I dont' think it needs them. We need to have some kind of CC shot since it should be long range and we should keep it long range. And I'd like to see some rapid fire on it, just because I want to see four of me just gunning things down.

But overall, what should the rifle be? I think it should be a critical weapon. We've already got a power greatsword, and staff and dagger are pretty condi-licious, but I think we should have a weapon that really fits into the crit build slot. Just build it all around precision and ferocity and let those players that want to have a glass cannon build go to town. 

But Power Greatsword is all about getting Crits to do the damage. 

I don't think there is a viable Power DPS build in the game that doesn't get Crit Chance to 100% and get as much Ferocity as possible.

 

Or are you meaning just have it be a single target weapon like the Deadeye rifle?

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Expecting a mesmer rifle skill becoming the next Gunflame for a while. Will be fun to play pink gunflame.

[Teknomancer.4895]

7 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

On the revenant shortbow thing, I think it is worth noting that people had been discussing that sort of style as something mesmer MH pistol might have before revenant was even unveiled. So it's more convergent evolution than copying.

You just had to bring up MH pistol, didn't you? 😢 At this point it's pretty clear we'll never get it. 😭

[ShadowKatt.6740]

6 hours ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

But Power Greatsword is all about getting Crits to do the damage. 

I don't think there is a viable Power DPS build in the game that doesn't get Crit Chance to 100% and get as much Ferocity as possible.

 

Or are you meaning just have it be a single target weapon like the Deadeye rifle?

Okay, granted it was a passing idea that really needed more expansion, but yes, like the Deadeye rifle.

Actually like most rifles. The Warrior rifle is also a single target DPS weapon. And technically speaking you can make ANY build a crit build if you just...you know, build for it. But what I'm talking about is a weapon that actually benefits from crits, as in every abilities comes with an "On Critical" secondary effect. What those could be could be anything, a few towards the higher end of the skillbar could even have higher crit chances (balanced by the longer CDs), but that's what I was thinking. Yes, greatsword is already a popular DPS weapon but that's really all it is. It's a hammer. Make the rifle a scalpel.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

40 minutes ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

You just had to bring up MH pistol, didn't you? 😢 At this point it's pretty clear we'll never get it. 😭

Excuse you, we are the DUELING class. Who duels with pistols? Obviously rifles make more sense.

[Curunen.8729]

16 hours ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

If I'm fighting more than one enemy I don't want to be in melee range because i want all the bouncing in the Mirror Blade to go between the enemies and not to waste bounces on myself.

If you have any allies around then adding your character in melee range will just be reducing the hits on the enemy also.

 

Can you explain how the Greatsword is a melee weapon or is it just an artifact of fighting against the Golem all by yourself that it seems to make a difference? I just don't see that making a statistical impact in real fights.

This depends on game mode.

In wvw/pvp anyone can dodge a ranged GS4/2/F1/GS3 now. Ignoring elite spec shatters, because of course virtuoso would allow you to supplement at range, but that's not talking about GS itself. For mirage and chrono you absolutely must get in their face and burst with GS to be any real threat and do the ping-pong porting in and out playstyle. It's not ranger lonbow where you can sit back and pew pew all your damage.

You're not going to chuck GS2 into a group from range and expect it to do much, and the might stacks are good on specs that require blinking in for F1.

In pve I see merit on ranged GS ambush spam on mirage and I have a template for abusing sigil of stamina with it which is great against many weak enemies, but otherwise for bosses don't see the point in playing GS power over any other hybrid or condi build.

The only good thing GS has going for it at range is auto not being a projectile.

Staff on the other hand only has a slow auto, so there is room for Rifle to have a different flavour of ranged play.

5 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Expecting a mesmer rifle skill becoming the next Gunflame for a while. Will be fun to play pink gunflame.

Hell yes this would be awesome!

[Roadkizzle.2157]

1 hour ago, Curunen.8729 said:

This depends on game mode.

In wvw/pvp anyone can dodge a ranged GS4/2/F1/GS3 now. Ignoring elite spec shatters, because of course virtuoso would allow you to supplement at range, but that's not talking about GS itself. For mirage and chrono you absolutely must get in their face and burst with GS to be any real threat and do the ping-pong porting in and out playstyle. It's not ranger lonbow where you can sit back and pew pew all your damage.

You're not going to chuck GS2 into a group from range and expect it to do much, and the might stacks are good on specs that require blinking in for F1.

In pve I see merit on ranged GS ambush spam on mirage and I have a template for abusing sigil of stamina with it which is great against many weak enemies, but otherwise for bosses don't see the point in playing GS power over any other hybrid or condi build.

The only good thing GS has going for it at range is auto not being a projectile.

Staff on the other hand only has a slow auto, so there is room for Rifle to have a different flavour of ranged play.

Hell yes this would be awesome!

Ooh. So it's about projectile and animation speed? Ok.

In PVP sure that's a possibility. I'm not very good at PVP but every Power Mesmer video I watch they spend 80-90% of their time engaging at range with the Greatsword and not in melee. I don't think it's as big of a deal as you imply.

I spent a long time looking at virtually every Power Mesmer build I could find on all the build sites. They ALL rely on the Greatsword in both PVE and PVP modes. Core, Chrono, and Virtuoso all use Greatsword but the Virtuoso is the most likely to swap it for a second dagger.

Power Mirage is just a meme tagging build but it also uses Greatsword.

Some builds do allow you to swap out to the Dagger or Sword but they always make it clear that you'll be losing damage.

Mesmer just does not have a higher DPS than Greatsword for Power.

 

Mesmer only has 6 weapons that can be used in the Mainhand. Of those only 2 are melee weapons.

Of all the OH options only Torch has a short ranged skill in the AOE burn.

Yet another ranged DPS weapon is just going to muddy the waters further.

If the Rifle does more DPS than the Greatsword then why the kitten would anyone use Greatsword again? But if the Rifle does less DPS than Greatsword then why the kitten would anyone use Rifle?

[Roadkizzle.2157]

3 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Okay, granted it was a passing idea that really needed more expansion, but yes, like the Deadeye rifle.

Actually like most rifles. The Warrior rifle is also a single target DPS weapon. And technically speaking you can make ANY build a crit build if you just...you know, build for it. But what I'm talking about is a weapon that actually benefits from crits, as in every abilities comes with an "On Critical" secondary effect. What those could be could be anything, a few towards the higher end of the skillbar could even have higher crit chances (balanced by the longer CDs), but that's what I was thinking. Yes, greatsword is already a popular DPS weapon but that's really all it is. It's a hammer. Make the rifle a scalpel.

You realize that they'll have to balance this out by assuming players are building for 100% Crit Rate because that's what players do even without any weapon with baked in 'On Crit' effects.

So why the hell would they add the extra mechanic into the weapon when it will be the same as just a baseline skill effect?

The Rifle will have to be balanced at 100% Crit rate along with the Greatsword at 100% Crit rate.

 

Neither of them would be able to have more DPS against single targets than the other because that is 100% of the End game content. 

 

So why add a new weapon that doesn't add anything that the Mesmer doesn't already have?

[Noodle Ant.1605]

im seeing a bit a misconception floating around here that gs is the highest pdps weapon on mesmer. while true in certain contexts, its important to note that it is only true (in pve, at least) wholly due to weapon swapping - in short, gs has good burst dps but poor sustained dps (due to its subpar autoattack)

just because it features on most pdps builds doesnt necessarily mean it is good in all aspects. not running gs is far less crippling than it is made out to be (usually less than 5% loss); in fact, it happens to be sort of a trap because some players get attracted to the laser visual and end up camping gs, bringing out its weakness and crippling the build far more than just camping the other weapon on swap

considering this interaction, it becomes clear that gs still actually leaves space for other pdps options. however i feel like pdps related interactions and identities should really be consolidated clearly between gs, sword and dagger before introducing another pdps weapon

[ShadowKatt.6740]

2 hours ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

Mesmer only has 6 weapons that can be used in the Mainhand. Of those only 2 are melee weapons.

And Warriors only have 2 ranged weapons, Rifle and Longbow. The rest, and there's a lot, are melee. But that's what they do. I've said it in other threads and I'll repeat it here, you shouldn't be in melee. I'm not saying you can't, I'm not saying it can't be done, but I am saying that we're a squishy class and frontline combat isn't where we belong. I understand the arguement being made that we don't need another ranged weapon and we could use more melee options but that's just not our role. If you want more versitility, well, there's a whole class of professions between heavy and light.

[Mevelios.4809]

2 hours ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

If the Rifle does more DPS than the Greatsword then why the kitten would anyone use Greatsword again? But if the Rifle does less DPS than Greatsword then why the kitten would anyone use Rifle?

As much as I understand the "efficiency" argument, there's also the "fun" factor. For a deviation of, say, max 5% I couldn't care less about which one's better than the other, if I get to enjoy it. I personally despise the greatsword and get quickly bored of playing it; I only pull it out of my inventory if I intend on joining a group that expects top damage dealer profiles (let's add "per profession" before somebody jumps at my throat yelling "META"). Having something else to play with, even if the rifle were to be a power-based ranged weapon, would be the opportunity to try something new and maybe find new synergies; in the meantime I'm either sticking with the dagger for efficiency, either just jumping into melee because that's where my fun is, even with weapons that don't perform the best (though obviously I wouldn't bring a torch on a power melee mesmer...).

However, I agree on the idea there would be other ways to enlarge and differentiate our playing options. I've lost track of the quotes I intended to make with the several recent messages, but I'd be onboard if the rifle were to replace the condition damage profile of the staff (even if it became more or less of a copy of the revenant's shortbow) so the staff could have a chance later on to become a more serious buffing tool. But that's a lot of work I doubt will happen, after remaining as-is for several years.

The other thing I'd be curious about is whether these new weapons will be tied to our related traits or not. If it is, there won't be much change about our playing options - a shift in form but not in essence; that'd be simpler, yet bit of a shame when it could open up opportunities. If it isn't, they'll need some oomph to compete with what's already possible - the stats, cooldown reductions or skill alterations. As usual, wait & see until it's unveiled!

[Dawnbreaker.4901]

This thread reminds me that I have to get the Etherbound Rifle skin unlocked before I forget again.

I joked that Mesmer Hammer would be very funny, but since we're getting Rifle, I'm kinda hoping that we'll use the butt-end of the rifle more.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

3 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

im seeing a bit a misconception floating around here that gs is the highest pdps weapon on mesmer. while true in certain contexts, its important to note that it is only true (in pve, at least) wholly due to weapon swapping - in short, gs has good burst dps but poor sustained dps (due to its subpar autoattack)

just because it features on most pdps builds doesnt necessarily mean it is good in all aspects. not running gs is far less crippling than it is made out to be (usually less than 5% loss); in fact, it happens to be sort of a trap because some players get attracted to the laser visual and end up camping gs, bringing out its weakness and crippling the build far more than just camping the other weapon on swap

considering this interaction, it becomes clear that gs still actually leaves space for other pdps options. however i feel like pdps related interactions and identities should really be consolidated clearly between gs, sword and dagger before introducing another pdps weapon

Sure. But the longest cooldown on a Greatsword DPS skill is 12 seconds on the phantasm. With alacrity it's ready within the 10 seconds of a weapon swap. 

Mirror Blade can be used every 4-5 seconds depending on Alac. 

The Sword cooldown is longer and every other OH has 20 seconds plus for all of their cooldowns.

 

 

I don't think anyone was saying that Greatsword couldn't use weapon swaps to keep damage going out.

But there is no Mesmer build that can do more power damage without using the Greatsword.

 

Are you saying that a rifle would be an adequate choice if you just have a high damage auto attack and every other skill just mediocre?

The Mesmer also has Dagger/Sword as a full ranged pDPS option with low cooldowns.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

2 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

And Warriors only have 2 ranged weapons, Rifle and Longbow. The rest, and there's a lot, are melee. But that's what they do. I've said it in other threads and I'll repeat it here, you shouldn't be in melee. I'm not saying you can't, I'm not saying it can't be done, but I am saying that we're a squishy class and frontline combat isn't where we belong. I understand the arguement being made that we don't need another ranged weapon and we could use more melee options but that's just not our role. If you want more versitility, well, there's a whole class of professions between heavy and light.

Yes and the Warrior is getting a staff. Yes it'll probably be melee still but is expected to be support oriented because that is what is lacking.

 

Mesmer is lacking in reliable support weapons and melee weapons. 

I personally hope the Rifle is either melee or they change the Scepter into a healing weapon and make the Rifle a condi DPS weapon.

 

I don't know which I'd prefer but either way would be helping plug in some gaps in the Mesmer combat.

[dannx greed.6970]

i would love to see something hybrid in the sense of dps and support,  something along the lines of engi mortar kit. 
if i was to envision it i would do 
skill 1 long ranged shot that applies bleed and confusion 
skill 2 a aggressive short forward dash that stunbreaks and summons a clone and grants allies protection
skill 3 shot gun style blast that sends 5 bullets ricocheting .  Each bullet will hit 2 targets and 2 allies; applying bleed then confusion on second hit and bounce back to the nearest allies providing regen 
skill 4 a short ranged shout/rally skill that aoe dazes, slows and provides vigor to allies
 skill 5 summon 2 phantasm that rain down aoe on a targeted location healing allies and and stacking Vulnerability on foes with okish dmg

my focus on this weapon would be to allow it to condi with bleeds or power with range mobility and crit and have a healer/support viability
great for wvw support or pve healer
 
 

[ShadowKatt.6740]

5 hours ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

You realize that they'll have to balance this out by assuming players are building for 100% Crit Rate because that's what players do even without any weapon with baked in 'On Crit' effects.

I dunno if you realize this, but that's kinda what the dev team is for. That's kinda the thing they DO.

I get that there are already 100% crit builds and it will have to be balanced. If you don't like the idea of it just doing UNLIMITED POWER! to whatever you point it at, then we can give it other effects. It does base damage and on crit it gives resolution. Or on crit it applies bleeding. Or on crit it cripples. Meaning that this weapon could go one of two ways: In the hands of a non-crit build, it's just a rifle. It does decent damage with a variety of forms and there you go. And in the hands of a crit build it becomes a condition weapon. Adjust the numbers so both are workable and that might take a couple patches, we'll see, but it's a working form.

5 hours ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

So why add a new weapon that doesn't add anything that the Mesmer doesn't already have?

Look, there's only, like, three basic builds in the game. Power, condi, and boon. And we've already got builds for ALL of those using all the weapons we already have. What do you want it to do that the rest of them don't already do or are you just going to continue to complain because we got another ranged weapon instead of a melee weapon  so our unarmored kitten can run up and get punched like all the other meatheads?

Edit: Oh my god, you actually did say that you hope the rifle is a melee weapon. See, this is why we can't be friends. If the RIFLE turns out to be a MELEE weapon I will spork someones lawn. Probably not the devs since I don't know who they are, but I've got a 1 in 325 million chance.

Edited October 26, 2023 by ShadowKatt.6740