Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Ohoni.6057" said:Answer, you ask.

Why did you play this today?:A: I really enjoy it.B: I'm grinding [the reward] until I get it.C: The general loot is better than other options.D: It's a daily.E: Other.

Ideally this one would be pick as many as you like, or split into separate questions on "how much do you enjoy it" and "which matters more, the unique loot or the general loot?"

So wait you want them to provide polls and ask the players after every, important, change they make to the game? Trying to picture how much of a development hit something like this would make to the entire process, and obviously how much it would hinder any kind of fresh and new types of content from appearing. Why bother trying new things? Just do more of what the players already enjoy and bring a stale, boring game!

[Kilamanjaro.2705]

Why do i suddenly feel like i did a decade or so ago when i heard "your vote matters", and then watched in disbelief as the lawyers and politicians devolved into various ploys until it became (and often still remains) "as long as it fits our agenda"We'll allow that numbers are only a representation of a much larger base, and satisfied players typically don't come to forums. And that as rumor spread throughout the raid community (especially the "sellers") that more of them would have likely showed up to vote. But even at that the presented tally on page 1 is pretty one-sided. Most companies have a metric to calculate the basic player interest based on such numbers.Now, seeing as all we are seeing on this thread now is pointless banter between the same players, perhaps its time to agree to disagree, let anet run or not run, with the numbers and let it go

[Ohoni.6057]

@"maddoctor.2738" said:So wait you want them to provide polls and ask the players after every, important, change they make to the game?

Not every player, not every time they do anything, but if there's something they are considering, they could spawn poll pop-ups over a few weeks or months, a true random sampling of participants in a bit of content that the the metrics are sketchy on and they're considering changing. On bigger questions, where they want the views of people who don't do the thing too, they can cast the net wider, randomly quiz players that are anywhere in the game, or maybe players that are doing something similar but different, depending on who they want to hear from on the topic.

It's a multi-step process. Raw statistical metrics point out some red flags, cases where player behavior doesn't match expectations. Reddit/forum threads are other red flags, cases where even if the metrics seem "fine," some players are reporting an issue. Spot polling is the best way of figuring out what the deal is, what is the explanation for those metric red flags? Do the views of the people in the thread represent any significant amount of players, or are they just random cranks? Polling is the best way to determine that.

Trying to picture how much of a development hit something like this would make to the entire process, and obviously how much it would hinder any kind of fresh and new types of content from appearing. Why bother trying new things? Just do more of what the players already enjoy and bring a stale, boring game!

This argument doesn't specifically apply to anything I was talking about. You could make the same argument with or without polling. I'm not advocating playing it safe, or not innovating. I'm talking about getting the best data available from the players about potential moves, or in review of changes already made, to figure out the best next step. Again, at NO point are ANet beholden to do exactly what the majority viewpoint says, but they should still know what it is, so that they can make their own informed decisions.

I'm not sure if you were around in beta, but they actually did run polling back then (and for a bit after launch, I think?). I liked that practice. Any time you completed a mission, or an event, or various other things, there was a random chance that a little poll would pop up, and you could rate how well you liked it and offer direct feedback. I'm not saying they need to go fully back to that system as a generalized mechanism, but doing it a little bit in certain cases should provide useful feedback to work with.

Why do you seem so opposed to this? I thought you liked "statistics?"

[Ferelwing.8463]

@Ferelwing.8463 said:Actually no it isn't... I didn't think I would like WvW at all, in fact I generally dislike PvP period. I was not keen on going into WvW and having to get Gift of Battle in the first place because that was not something I thought I would be interested in. However, guess what? I tried it and got hooked on it. I enjoyed the playstyle of having massive battles and testing my skills against other players more than I thought I would.

Right, that's nice, but what if you still hated it? How long should you have to keep doing it to get what you want? I support

short term

unique items that encourage players to

try

new elements of the game, as you did. I do

not

support

long term

unique goals, which require players to

keep

playing a specific mode even after they've decided that it's not for them. I believe that long term goals re good too, but they need to be more flexible, so that they keep you playing

the game,

while not keeping you bound to a game mode that you hate.

That I completely agree with, the Gift of Battle reward track did NOT take me weeks or months to finish it was pretty fast. I completely agree that there should be short-term stuff that will let you try something to see if you like it and it shouldn't be such a long commitment. I agree with you that there should be choices to get to the paths you want to get to vs ONE TRUE WAYism in a game.. If a player doesn't want to do PvP or WvW or Raids there should be other options to get Legendary Armor.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Ohoni.6057 said:I'm not sure if you were around in beta, but they actually did run polling back then (and for a bit after launch, I think?). I liked that practice. Any time you completed a mission, or an event, or various other things, there was a random chance that a little poll would pop up, and you could rate how well you liked it and offer direct feedback. I'm not saying they need to go fully back to that system as a generalized mechanism, but doing it a little bit in certain cases should provide useful feedback to work with.

The difference being: the game was under development back then. There are many games under development that still do that, asking their players what they want, especially games that are crowd funded. On the other hand, Guild Wars 2 is a released game. I think they take feedback from players seriously and make changes according to that, like how they made their new mount adoption license, how they added an extra character slot for those who had the core game before buying Heart of Thorns, how they removed participation from Heart of Thorns maps and so on, how their returned the Alpine Borderlands to WVW. I think we can find numerous times when they responded to feedback. They even created a poll asking the community about WVW changes so even poll creation/usage isn't out of the question.

But on this specific topic, they've been crystal clear and uncompromising.

[Ferelwing.8463]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Ohoni.6057" said:True, which is why you would need to do

direct

polling of the community to find out their interests. Either that or just do it and see what happens.That'ts unlikely to happen

Why do you think it's unlikely Anet might do direct polling? Riot Games (League of Legends) polls their community regularly. They gain a lot of insight into what their community wants/needs as a result.. They then use that direct polling to course change with their game. Why would you think that Anet wouldn't/couldn't do the same thing? They could, and I honestly think they should. It would help give them ideas/perspectives on things. Forums are great but there's nothing that beats directly asking.

But there are no other stats that would reliably predict that result. You've suggested several, but they are each seriously flawed.According to you they are flawed, I don't see them as flawed, it's how statistics work.

Have you taken a statistics class? You do not work with flawed data and then claim that it "works" that's just bad statistics and it shows flawed judgement when you do something like that. You DO NOT use bad data-sets or flawed datasets period and then claim that's how statistics work..

Again, only to point out to people who seemed certain of their position that they had no basis of it beyond their opinions.Same as you... You are certain of your position yet you have no basis of it beyond your opinion. Yet you try to make this opinion of yours appear as something that it isn't.

"Vague "it would be a lot of work so we chose not to do it" is not sufficient, I need details to be satisfied in the response. "

Did they give any market details regarding Open World PVP so they didn't add it? Did they provide any details for not including Mounts? (Before Path of Fire)Did they provide any such details when they added Raids with Heart of Thorns?They did not. I don't think they need to provide any extra details, just like they didn't have to provide any extra details for any other piece of content they've ever added to the game. And no, satisfying your personal curiosity isn't a valid reason.

Or they could provide their community who support their games/paychecks with some insight into the how's/why's of things and then allow them to provide feedback. It would be nice to get a clearer picture of things.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Ferelwing.8463" said:Have you taken a statistics class? You do not work with flawed data and then claim that it "works" that's just bad statistics and it shows flawed judgement when you do something like that. You DO NOT use bad data-sets or flawed datasets period and then claim that's how statistics work..Yes but here is the thing. IT's not flawed data because you or someone else says it is.

Or they could provide their community who support their games/paychecks with some insight into the how's/why's of things and then allow them to provide feedback. It would be nice to get a clearer picture of things.They already do that when it's something important for the game overall. Mount adoptions, extra character slots with Heart of Thorns for those who bought the core game, removal of participation from Heart of Thorns maps, and I'm sure lots of others. When the first major debate for the game erupted (Ascended gear addition) they did explain clearly why they did add Ascended to the game. Even if it took them a while to do so. Some, but not all, of the skill changes had lengthy explanations attached to them.

Maybe THIS particular topic isn't important enough to warrant an extra explanation? Ever thought about that? That it's only an "issue" for some loud vocal forum posters and it's not making its presence known anywhere else? You wouldn't demand that they spend all their time on forums explaining absolutely every decision they make.All of the other things that Arenanet responded had their own mass complaints about them, both on the forums but also elsewhere, on reddit, on social media, and even on major gaming websites (the mount adoption license for sure, but also others). There is nothing on the subject of this post anywhere else outside this forum.

[Ferelwing.8463]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Ohoni.6057" said:I'm not sure if you were around in beta, but they actually

did

run polling back then (and for a bit after launch, I think?). I liked that practice. Any time you completed a mission, or an event, or various other things, there was a random chance that a little poll would pop up, and you could rate how well you liked it and offer direct feedback. I'm not saying they need to go fully back to that system as a generalized mechanism, but doing it a little bit in certain cases should provide useful feedback to work with.

The difference being: the game was under development back then. There are many games under development that still do that, asking their players what they want, especially games that are crowd funded. On the other hand, Guild Wars 2 is a released game. I think they take feedback from players seriously and make changes according to that, like how they made their new mount adoption license, how they added an extra character slot for those who had the core game before buying Heart of Thorns, how they removed participation from Heart of Thorns maps and so on, how their returned the Alpine Borderlands to WVW. I think we can find numerous times when they responded to feedback. They even created a poll asking the community about WVW changes so even poll creation/usage isn't out of the question.

But on this specific topic, they've been crystal clear and uncompromising.

Riot Games is probably one of the most successful gaming companies in E-sports(worldwide). I haven't played League of Legends in close to a year but I still watch League of Legends pro's (and go to their gaming events). They send me and other "players" polls about every 3 months or so. This game has seasons and has been going on for about 7 years now. They are still regularly polling their players and regularly polling their community. They also have a beta server to test changes to various classes etc. Their game is a bit different than GW2 as it's a MOBA vs a MMO but the comment still stands. They are successful because they continue to seek community input into their game. They poll regularly about changes they would like to make (if it isn't a balance change) and they test those changes in a PBE environment with players who are randomly selected (or who sign up to be beta testers). This allows them to make regular changes to the game, get feedback and track down bugs.

This can be done with an MMO and probably SHOULD be done with an MMO. It gives the MMO the ability to get feedback on what they can and should change with regular polling. Riot also has forums but they pay closer attention to the things that happen in their PBE environment AND with their direct polling. Riot has made mistakes too (they removed Solo-queue for 1 year and brought it back after community polling suggested that people wanted the option of both Flex AND Solo).

So no, regularly polling your community/users isn't something that people stop doing after they get out of beta. It's something that helps make sure the company has a handle on what's going on and keeps a game healthy. Games that poll their community get better feedback which gives them an advantage.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Ferelwing.8463 said:So no, regularly polling your community/users isn't something that people stop doing after they get out of beta. It's something that helps make sure the company has a handle on what's going on and keeps a game healthy. Games that poll their community get better feedback which gives them an advantage.

Arenanet gets feedback too when they make balance changes. And they revert or change them.Btw: when was the last time Riot Games added completely new game modes in League of Legends?

[Ferelwing.8463]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Ferelwing.8463" said:Have you taken a statistics class? You do not work with flawed data and then claim that it "works" that's just bad statistics and it shows flawed judgement when you do something like that. You DO NOT use bad data-sets or flawed datasets period and then claim that's how statistics work..Yes but here is the thing. IT's not flawed data because you or someone else says it is.

You are claiming that the data from Efficiency speaks for the entire Game. The amount of people who use efficiency are less than a major percentage of the overall players of GW2 as stated by their own statistics. This is a weak data-set at the very least and cannot be used to determine the entirety of the game as a whole because of this. However, you are using this specific data-set to determine your whole correlation and that is just bad statistics period.

Or they could provide their community who support their games/paychecks with some insight into the how's/why's of things and then allow them to provide feedback. It would be nice to get a clearer picture of things.They already do that when it's something important for the game overall. Mount adoptions, extra character slots with Heart of Thorns for those who bought the core game, removal of participation from Heart of Thorns maps, and I'm sure lots of others. When the first major debate for the game erupted (Ascended gear addition) they did explain clearly why they did add Ascended to the game. Even if it took them a while to do so. Some, but not all, of the skill changes had lengthy explanations attached to them.

And that's nice but having a better picture of how long it takes to do certain things and the reasoning behind things would be nice as well.. Riot games posts a bi-weekly "state of the game" where they talk about various parts of the game that they're not happy with and various parts of the game where they are. They discuss upcoming balance changes (how's and why's) etc... This kind of thing would be helpful for any game not just a MOBA.

Maybe THIS particular topic isn't important enough to warrant an extra explanation? Ever thought about that? That it's only an "issue" for some loud vocal forum posters and it's not making its presence known anywhere else? You wouldn't demand that they spend all their time on forums explaining absolutely every decision they make.All of the other things that Arenanet responded had their own mass complaints about them, both on the forums but also elsewhere, on reddit, on social media, and even on major gaming websites (the mount adoption license for sure, but also others). There is nothing on the subject of this post anywhere else outside this forum.

Ok, you are asserting that this topic doesn't warrant any extra discussion and yet it keeps cropping up over and over again. When Legendaries exist and they are locked to specific content it's a problem. They pop out new legendary weapons every few months but the Legendary gear is almost exclusively Raid only. 1 Legendary Trinket was given to the Open World (Living World Season 3). The next Legendary Trinket, Raid only (again). This is the root of the issue: Legendary Items shouldn't be locked to specific content only for specific players. There should be choices.

Those who want to play Raids should be able to have choices as well. It shouldn't be "normal only fail till you make it". So far all of the things that Ohoni has mentioned make sense. It would give more players the chance to play various areas. But those who do NOT want to raid and aren't interested in elitism shouldn't be locked out of having Legendary Gear just because someone else says so. There should be more than 1 way to attain different types of Legendaries. Legendary Armor should be attainable in multiple ways for PVE.

My assertion is that there should be more choices period for PVE Legendary Armor. It should not be locked to 1 mode. Earlier someone was commenting about the skins for various dungeon armor. Dungeon armor is exotic, there are not stat changes on it and while it's a nice looking piece it's not something that people are going to be "clamoring" for. You do not go to Dungeons to get Ascended Armor and as far as I know Ascended Gear is either made or it's a drop item. Even if you play Fractals tokens have to be made as part of getting Ascended's so it's still mostly crafted and the only thing needed is the recipe. So, the comparison is apples to oranges.

Legendary Armor on the other hand allows options if you are not in combat you can change the stats immediately, you do not have to go to the Mystic Forge to change your stats, you do not have to have a previously created piece to combine with a book, some globs of ecto etc. It means that you are not forced to go to a Mystic Forge when you want to change something. This gives players the options of testing other builds on the fly vs making pieces and having to use the books constantly. Because of the nature of how Legendary Armor works vs Dungeon armor previous comments comparing the two are not even on the same level. The Dungeon armor is Exotic at the highest and the skins are nice but they do not do the same thing that a Legendary or even an Ascended Piece of armor do. With an Ascended piece you can change the stats (see comment about having all these extra pieces to change your stats at the Mystic Forge), exotic armor CAN'T do any of those things. It's therefore a bad example to use. As a result of Legendaries very nature there should be more than one option in PVE to get to it. It should NOT be locked solely behind instanced content. I also object to Legendary Backpacks being locked to 1 mode but since back pieces are pretty easy to get since Living Worlds Season 3 it's less of an issue.

I would particularly like to object to the very drab and boring Legendary Armor found in WvW (considering how often we change stats in WvW it's annoying that our Legendary Armor isn't epic looking at all while people who rarely if ever change stats get super epic looking shinies). Let's face it, the reason people in PVE get Legendary armor is because it's pretty... I don't want to deny the people in PVE their shinies, I think there should be other paths to getting their shinies.

Do I want better shinies? Yes, I play WvW and need to change my stats with updates or when changing playstyles (and we change based on how many people are on at a given time). When I was playing PVE I would have preferred other options for my shinies. I would have preferred more viable build paths. PVE is stagnant in it's content and in what is viable build-path wise, period. WvW and PvP are NOT stagnant in our build-paths and as a result it's incredibly irritating that PVE get's the shiniest of the shinies while WvW and PvP get "meh" shinies even though we get the most out of the Legendaries, and to us they're not just skins they're actually needed. (Yes, it's a whole other conversation). Which brings me back to another question, why is there only 1 path to Legendary Armor in PVE (there could be lots of Legendary Armor sets but only 1 for PVE?) Why do you get to add Legendary Trinkets to your Raid Content? Instead of continuing the Living World Season 3 of getting a Legendary Trinket from there?

Having the next Legendary Trinket locked behind Raiding is annoying. I can't get it in WvW, I do not want to raid. I don't want to keep buying new trinkets after every balance patch, but somehow Raiders get a Trinket, Legendary Armor (which looks epic) and the rest of the game? ... crickets? So yeah, some people would like other options.

Why do all the super pretty shinies go to the people who don't have any reason to change their builds (outside of when another expansion comes in?)

[Teamkiller.4315]

Stihl, the reason why so many people think Ohoni's proposal is absurd is because he specifically wants envoy armor out of easy mode

[Ferelwing.8463]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Ferelwing.8463" said:So no, regularly polling your community/users isn't something that people stop doing after they get out of beta. It's something that helps make sure the company has a handle on what's going on and keeps a game healthy. Games that poll their community get better feedback which gives them an advantage.

Arenanet gets feedback too when they make balance changes. And they revert or change them.Btw: when was the last time Riot Games added completely new game modes in League of Legends?

Umm Riot Games added Clash, last month... It has SMS to prevent cheating and smurfing. They also have their rotating game modes that happen every weekend. They are always adding new things (when they add new skins or a new character they also have a Game Mode that goes with it).

Anet gets feedback from their forums not from directly polling. That is literally not the same thing. With their PvP and WvW stats they would do better to have balance patches more often but then we get into the problem with gear shifts (and how Legendary items are harder to get). So it's a catch-22. Riot's build paths shift with each balance patch because each game you load in and you build from the gold you get during "laning" etc, so using that as an example wouldn't work.

If Anet started using direct polling and using some of their statistics for balance changes it would go a long way to helping make a healthier game. Having a bi-weekly "state of the game" would also go a long way to helping players understand where the dev's are coming from and have the dev's understand where the players are coming from.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Ferelwing.8463" said:You are claiming that the data from Efficiency speaks for the entire Game.I never said the data from efficiency speak for the entire Game, only that it is a rather large sample, which I think is very much indisputable. You do understand what sampling is I hope. If everyone that ever posted statistics over a subject had to poll every single interested person then we wouldn't have statistics to begin with.

And that's nice but having a better picture of how long it takes to do certain things and the reasoning behind things would be nice as well.. Riot games posts a bi-weekly "state of the game" where they talk about various parts of the game that they're not happy with and various parts of the game where they are. They discuss upcoming balance changes (how's and why's) etc... This kind of thing would be helpful for any game not just a MOBA.Agreed. Discussing balance changes is important for any game not just a MOBA. About other upcoming features? Not so much.

Ok, you are asserting that this topic doesn't warrant any extra discussion and yet it keeps cropping up over and over again.Notice how it keeps cropping up by random people and then it's the same 5-6 that keep the thread active for 70+ pages. It's the SAME PEOPLE all the time. If you check the other major complaint threads you'll find that's not the case, they are full with hundreds of different posters. Not only that, but the other major setbacks of the game attracted attention from outside this forum alone. There were posts on reddit, posts on other social media, even got the attention of major youtubers and major gaming websites, while THIS topic outside of THIS sub-forum doesn't even exist.

IT's this kind of mentality shown in this thread that makes me understand why developers are more likely to post on reddit than post on these forums.

[Ferelwing.8463]

@Teamkiller.4315 said:Stihl, the reason why so many people think Ohoni's proposal is absurd is because he specifically wants envoy armor out of easy mode

It's not unreasonable to want to have a different mode for different types of players. I think Ohoni might not be as irritated about the armor if there were other options and other types of Legendary Armor (equally epic) that they could get without having to go into the raiding.

If there was a training mode, I might give raiding a try (as I said previously) but I'm not going to spend 4 hours wiping with zero feedback from the encounter when I could just go and play WvW with 100% instant feedback.

[Teamkiller.4315]

@Ferelwing.8463 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:Stihl, the reason why so many people think Ohoni's proposal is absurd is because he specifically wants envoy armor out of easy mode

It's not unreasonable to want to have a different mode for different types of players. I think Ohoni might not be as irritated about the armor if there were other options and other types of Legendary Armor (equally epic) that they could get without having to go into the raiding.

If there was a training mode, I might give raiding a try (as I said previously) but I'm not going to spend 4 hours wiping with zero feedback from the encounter when I could just go and play WvW with 100% instant feedback.

@Ferelwing.8463 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:Stihl, the reason why so many people think Ohoni's proposal is absurd is because he specifically wants envoy armor out of easy mode

It's not unreasonable to want to have a different mode for different types of players. I think Ohoni might not be as irritated about the armor if there were other options and other types of Legendary Armor (equally epic) that they could get without having to go into the raiding.

If there was a training mode, I might give raiding a try (as I said previously) but I'm not going to spend 4 hours wiping with zero feedback from the encounter when I could just go and play WvW with 100% instant feedback.

No he specifically wants envoy armor out of easy mode. That's the thing. It's not about an open world legendary armor or whatever, it's about specifically having envoy come out of easy mode.

He wont budge on this point.

[Ferelwing.8463]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Ferelwing.8463" said:You are claiming that the data from Efficiency speaks for the entire Game.I never said the data from efficiency speak for the entire Game, only that it is a rather large sample, which I think is very much indisputable. You do understand what sampling is I hope. If everyone that ever posted statistics over a subject had to poll every single interested person then we wouldn't have statistics to begin with.

It's not a strong enough sample size to merit the type of emphasis you are asserting the data for. I can go and double check the exact stats but from what I recall it was less than 10% of the entire GW2 community. That sample size is not a strong enough indicator and is a weak data set period. The sampling isn't a good indicator, you'd need a larger sample size period to infer the type information you are claiming. The sample size of 20-30% would be a better indicator and polling directly for the different player types (as shown by data) would be an even better indicator. The majority of the people who use Efficiency are a "higher than average" player.

And that's nice but having a better picture of how long it takes to do certain things and the reasoning behind things would be nice as well.. Riot games posts a bi-weekly "state of the game" where they talk about various parts of the game that they're not happy with and various parts of the game where they are. They discuss upcoming balance changes (how's and why's) etc... This kind of thing would be helpful for any game not just a MOBA.Agreed. Discussing balance changes is important for any game not just a MOBA. About other upcoming features? Not so much.

Riot discusses upcoming features as well to prepare the community for changes and to give them time to comment/suggest/complain. It does work far better then "surprise" and then having the fall-out from that. (They learned that early)

Ok, you are asserting that this topic doesn't warrant any extra discussion and yet it keeps cropping up over and over again.Notice how it keeps cropping up by random people and then it's the same 5-6 that keep the thread active for 70+ pages. It's the SAME PEOPLE all the time. If you check the other major complaint threads you'll find that's not the case, they are full with hundreds of different posters. Not only that, but the other major setbacks of the game attracted attention from outside this forum alone. There were posts on reddit, posts on other social media, even got the attention of major youtubers and major gaming websites, while THIS topic outside of THIS sub-forum doesn't even exist.

I've seen it on Reddit a few times, and I've seen various comments come up about Legendary Armor specifically in multiple forums (not always discussing Raiding in general just how irritating it is that Raiding specifically gets the shiniest of the shinies when the PVE group doesn't really change their stats often enough to warrant it). I actually hear a lot of complaining from WvW players who I actually know who find it irritating that Raids got the latest Legendary Trinket the quote was "As if they need it." There's no corresponding Legendary Trinket being offered to anyone else, so yes, there is a bit of an issue with this entire line of thinking.

So yeah it's not just the same group, it crops up in all sorts of places, this specific group however put it into the forum as it's own separate post.

The most common frustrations I see vented are 1) Raiders get Legendary Armor (not the always about skin but the ability to change their stats on the fly outside of combat) 2) Raiders now get a Legendary Trinket only available to them (which requires those of us who change stats more often to think about raiding and get angry about it) 3) There are no other comparable options for anyone else in PVE.

Comparable meaning changing stats on the fly. Dungeon armor is Exotic you can't use that as a comparison, Ascended Armor requires recipes and while you can change the stats you can't do it on the fly, you have to go to the Mystic Forge every single time you want to change something. Exotics can't and so using the Dungeon armor to justify Legendary Gear being locked is moot. (Like I said, I'm not a fan of the back item but at least they made getting ascended back pieces really cheap in Living World season 3)

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Ferelwing.8463" said:It's not a strong enough sample size to merit the type of emphasis you are asserting the data for.

Really? The sample size is your problem? -rolleyes

Riot discusses upcoming features as well to prepare the community for changes and to give them time to comment/suggest/complain. It does work far better then "surprise" and then having the fall-out from that. (They learned that early)Maybe because they don't care about surprises :) Different types of games I guess.

So yeah it's not just the same group, it crops up in all sorts of places, this specific group however put it into the forum as it's own separate post.Check the topic of the thread. Now provide some actual links that discuss THIS topic (adding an easy mode to Raids) outside of these forums. Preferably with enough pages of a discussion and not a single post.

[Ferelwing.8463]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Ferelwing.8463" said:It's not a strong enough sample size to merit the type of emphasis you are asserting the data for.

Really? The sample

size

is your problem? -rolleyes

Ok, let's get into the real problem then. It was an online poll correct? People would have to know where to go to answer the poll correctly and they would have to have been made aware of it's existence. Add in the the next portion where it wasn't a random sample size (it had the ability to be skewed) all of that states that the entire data set is not a good sample size and is a weak indicator. Having a direct poll eliminates the problem with it.

Riot discusses upcoming features as well to prepare the community for changes and to give them time to comment/suggest/complain. It does work far better then "surprise" and then having the fall-out from that. (They learned that early)Maybe because they don't care about surprises :) Different types of games I guess.

Or maybe they haven't really given that a thought because it never occurred to them that the player base might not appreciate it?

So yeah it's not just the same group, it crops up in all sorts of places, this specific group however put it into the forum as it's own separate post.Check the topic of the thread. Now provide some actual links that discuss THIS topic (adding an easy mode to Raids) outside of these forums. Preferably with enough pages of a discussion and not a single post.

I check the topics regularly on a LOT of subjects, I see the comments about raiding/raids/Legendary Armor locked behind raids a LOT. I personally don't care about raiding anymore. I still check in because it does bother me that the latest Legendary Trinket was also added to the Raiding group rather than given out in Living World or some other way. If there were more options to get Legendary armor and the most recent Legendary Trinket, you'd probably get even less "easy mode raiding". I do not want to raid (as mentioned above), I'd give it a try if there was a training mode perhaps. I am not going to sit and watch 4 hours of videos when I can just go get the instant feedback in WvW. I PLAY GW2 I don't want to watch others play it.

[STIHL.2489]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:It's a great design.. if you like losing 9/10ths of your population.Remember when WoW originally released and no one ever bought it because they heard you had to do certain content to get certain gear and it ended up being one of the biggest flops in gaming?

I was still playing EQ when WoW was launched, and listening to the

hardcore

players fussing that instance based content as opposed to server specific rare spawn mobs with rare named loot and everyone being able to get the best loot was going to destroy MMO's. They went on and on about how that there needed to be a single boss per server that only spawned once week, so that only the skilled players would get the top level loot and how anything else would ruin the whole idea of a game.

The WoW developers wisely ignored them, and pretty much made the MMO that all the EQ casuals wanted, and as irony would have it they coincidentally incorporated a lot of the suggestions and requests that were made on the old EQ forums, it was almost as if they were taking notes, which was not anywhere near as ironic for those that were there, and lo and behold, WoW shot up.. and EQ tanked shortly thereafter.

See, the elitist back then had the same mentality to what you are saying now.. good thing WoW ignored them and made a super casual game by compairosn, and, you know, every game after following that trend.

See, the toxic self-serving elitist mindset hasn't changed and the only constant is that you side has been wrong and bad for game development.. since the dawn of MMO's.

Anet I guess.. has chosen to learn this the hard way.

Vanilla WoW had tons of innovations that helped make it a smash phenomenon. And yeah, it was no where near as hardcore as Everquest to it's immense benefit. But it was by no means a casual game. Getting the best equipment demanded things from you.

It was a Huge Casual game for it's time, in fact most of their innovations you can find were what what was requested by the casual on the EQ forums. But make no mistake, in 2004, when WoW launched it was the comparable equivalent to Baby;s First MMO, among it's competitors.

This has set a trend among MMO's to become more casual friendly, which, at no one's surprise was where the largest populations were and the most fo the money was.

Truth is.. among the players looking for real challenge, PvP has replaced trying to make PvE content, as the saying goes, nothing is more a challenge then a thinking opponent, and the massive rise of MOBA's has proven this.

As Irony would have it, tho MOBA's have also proven that Casuals are just as skilled as hardcore players, as MOBA have a ginormous casual following, as being able to log in, fight, be challenged, and then go deal with the other parts of life, was a huge attraction to them, and again, to no one's surprise, they held their own.

And then WoW released cataclysm, then Pandara, then Draenor. Draenor being the most casual, where you could sit in your base all day doing nothing while your followers delivered top tier gear for you. And WoW's population plummeted. By people tracking server populations across regions WoW dropped below 1 million active users during Draenor. If we take total sales from Legion (3.3 million)as representative of WoWs current population there are more people playing on private legacy Vanilla, BC, and WotLK than live World of Warcraft. So many more players and demand for official legacy servers Blizzard announced WoW classic to try and tap into the audience playing the older version of their game.

These numbers are wrong. WoW has currently near 7 million accounts with around 5 million subs, as of WoD's release.

And I never called you stupid.. I said you were wrong, there is a difference, but the fact that you think and claim I called you stupid, is why I said I don't trust your perceptions of events as they unfold.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Ferelwing.8463 said:Or maybe they haven't really given that a thought because it never occurred to them that the player base might not appreciate it?You'd be surprised. Asking for a public test server is as old request as the game release. Asking for Arenanet to give us patch notes before they are added to the game is also an old one.

I check the topics regularly on a LOT of subjects,I asked for links because I check topics a lot too and haven't seen this subject outside of this forum.

[STIHL.2489]

@Teamkiller.4315 said:Stihl, the reason why so many people think Ohoni's proposal is absurd is because he specifically wants envoy armor out of easy mode

So what?

Don't you have enough other junk like Unique Weapon, Armor and Back skins, along with titles, miniatures and whatever (not sure all the unique things that Raids offer, TBH) to placate your need for things to display and flaunt your accomplishments?

I mean really.. how much do you need?

If the answer is Everything.. then that is why Anet made a mistake going in this direction to start with.

[STIHL.2489]

@Ferelwing.8463 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ferelwing.8463 said:It's not a strong enough sample size to merit the type of emphasis you are asserting the data for.

Really? The sample

size

is your problem? -rolleyes

Ok, let's get into the real problem then. It was an online poll correct? People would have to know where to go to answer the poll correctly and they would have to have been made aware of it's existence. Add in the the next portion where it wasn't a random sample size (it had the ability to be skewed) all of that states that the entire data set is not a good sample size and is a weak indicator. Having a direct poll eliminates the problem with it.

Riot discusses upcoming features as well to prepare the community for changes and to give them time to comment/suggest/complain. It does work far better then "surprise" and then having the fall-out from that. (They learned that early)Maybe because they don't care about surprises :) Different types of games I guess.

Or maybe they haven't really given that a thought because it never occurred to them that the player base might not appreciate it?

So yeah it's not just the same group, it crops up in all sorts of places, this specific group however put it into the forum as it's own separate post.Check the topic of the thread. Now provide some actual links that discuss THIS topic (adding an easy mode to Raids) outside of these forums. Preferably with enough pages of a discussion and not a single post.

I check the topics regularly on a LOT of subjects, I see the comments about raiding/raids/Legendary Armor locked behind raids a LOT. I personally don't care about raiding anymore. I still check in because it does bother me that the latest Legendary Trinket was also added to the Raiding group rather than given out in Living World or some other way. If there were more options to get Legendary armor and the most recent Legendary Trinket, you'd probably get even less "easy mode raiding". I do not want to raid (as mentioned above), I'd give it a try if there was a training mode perhaps. I am not going to sit and watch 4 hours of videos when I can just go get the instant feedback in WvW. I

PLAY

GW2 I don't want to watch others play it.

Yah.. Anet is making a huge mistake trying to corral people into doing raids. It's already hurt them.. and it's going to hurt them a lot more as time goes on.

[Teamkiller.4315]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:Stihl, the reason why so many people think Ohoni's proposal is absurd is because he specifically wants envoy armor out of easy mode

So what?

Don't you have enough other junk like Unique Weapon, Armor and Back skins, along with titles, miniatures and whatever (not sure all the unique things that Raids offer, TBH) to placate your need for things to display and flaunt your accomplishments?

I mean really.. how much do you need?

If the answer is Everything.. then that is why Anet made a mistake going in this direction to start with.

Actually i have no legendaries at all, my best skin is eidolan (shield), and my most worn titles by far are dungeon master and champion paragon. In other words, not earned by doing end game content.

I'm not the correct person to attack. And also, the core problem is his refusal to accept the concept of exclusive rewards for completing different content.

[STIHL.2489]

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:Stihl, the reason why so many people think Ohoni's proposal is absurd is because he specifically wants envoy armor out of easy mode

So what?

Don't you have enough other junk like Unique Weapon, Armor and Back skins, along with titles, miniatures and whatever (not sure all the unique things that Raids offer, TBH) to placate your need for things to display and flaunt your accomplishments?

I mean really.. how much do you need?

If the answer is Everything.. then that is why Anet made a mistake going in this direction to start with.

Actually i have no legendaries at all, my best skin is eidolan (shield), and my most worn titles by far are dungeon master and champion paragon.

Ok.. so why the issue?

I mean.. legit. I do not get this.. if the people that are doing raids are not parading out all the bells and whistles banging their Raid Exclusive Drum as it were, saying look at me and what I can do . why should they care if someone like @Ohoni.6057 can get a skin from a really ugly set of armor, that they also would not wear?

[Ferelwing.8463]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Ferelwing.8463" said:Or maybe they haven't really given that a thought because it never occurred to them that the player base might not appreciate it?You'd be surprised. Asking for a public test server is as old request as the game release. Asking for Arenanet to give us patch notes

before

they are added to the game is also an old one.

And continually asking for those things might have the effect of them getting implemented eventually... If people just stop asking then they view it as no longer an issue.

I check the topics regularly on a LOT of subjects,I asked for links because I check topics a lot too and haven't seen this subject outside of this forum.

You mean easy mode raids? Yes, you're right most people aren't even bothering with the concept. A) They have only 2 armor classes that really matter for the majority of character classes (Zerkers or Condi), B) They don't want to raid because they don't want to spend 4 hours failing and don't want to be called names or have toxicity thrown at them for not knowing what to do. (Pretty reasonable things)

Having other alternatives for Legendary Armor? That comes up a lot. In fact it's a pretty big topic of conversation in my WvW guild (along with, why is our Legendary Armor pathetic compared to the raiders, why do they even need epic shinies it's not like they have any exciting build paths in PVE anyways?) Oh and the more recent one that comes up a lot "Why they did they have a Legendary Trinket added to RAID ONLY content?" Along with "Seriously, this is getting old".

That of course isn't the only thing that comes up, quite a few of us are tired of how WvW tiers are currently based more on server size and coverage vs skill etc or the lack of any reason to want to get to the higher tiers because there's no real reward other than going to the tier... But that's more for the WvW forum then this one.

This forum is directly discussing Easy Mode Raiding and of course content being locked behind Raiding. Which probably SHOULD have it's own thread. I would be interested in training mode raiding (the whole reason I even looked at this thread). I also think that having Legendary Items locked behind instanced content is wrong. Which is pretty much what I have asserted throughout this thread. I do not want to raid as it is currently, I would like to actually have a training mode where I can drag some other people who have never raided and have it show me what needs to be done rather then have some random person try to teach an entire group (or we try to figure it out alone). I was hoping that was the general idea of the thread and I liked some of proposals thrown out along the way (when they were actively thinking about how to create something cool like training mode).

What I didn't like in this thread? People calling others lazy for wanting shinies but not wanting to raid. People telling others that they didn't want to "work" for the shinies etc... Or people comparing Legendary items to Exotics and thinking that they should be treated the same.

I want another Legendary Trinket, I do NOT want to raid for it. I want the Trinket because I have to change stats based on the server population at the time while I'm playing WvW and I don't want to carry 5 different trinkets in my inventory at all times to do it that's just too much inventory space. I want a nice epically looking shiney Legendary Armor too, rather than the kinda boring/drab one WvW gave us. I don't think comparing WvW to Raiding works (both require completely different mechanics etc) but it bothers me that the PVE group gets the shiniest of the shinies and looks down on everyone else for wanting shinies too. So yeah that bothers me and I'm going to speak up about it because it's irritating.