Rifle Mesmers Direct Allies to the Nearest Emergency Exit

[Terrorhuz.4695]

Wrong thread

Edited November 28, 2023 by Terrorhuz.4695
:(

[Vennyhedgie.5369]

21 hours ago, Loules.8601 said:

Alacrity - Chrono speciality, I don’t like the idea that Mirage will get easier access to it. And it’s not the only effect of talent - it’s a dps talent too.

And if anything - it should get you quickness on Mirage, not alacrity. As a possible solution quickness can be removed from Chrono too, to make Mirage more unique in this regard.  
 

But I’m hardly against such Alacrity buffs to Mirage - it shouldn’t be a spec with more annd easier Alacrity than Chrono. 

TBH I'm still mad they added alacrity to Mirage to begin with. And in such a very clearly specialized way it really screamed "I just made a build for myself to play" from S.

[Vennyhedgie.5369]

Double Post

Edited November 29, 2023 by Vennyhedgie.5369
Double Post

[ShadowKatt.6740]

1 hour ago, Vennyhedgie.5369 said:

TBH I'm still mad they added alacrity to Mirage to begin with. And in such a very clearly specialized way it really screamed "I just made a build for myself to play" from S.

And then they gave it to rangers, necros, revenants, engineers, guardians, thieves, and even warriors, because at the end of the day, why ARE you playing a mesmer when you could be playing LITERALLY ANYTHING ELSE.

[Mevelios.4809]

12 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

And then they gave it to rangers, necros, revenants, engineers, guardians, thieves, and even warriors, because at the end of the day, why ARE you playing a mesmer when you could be playing LITERALLY ANYTHING ELSE.

That's diversity there, I'm glad it is - I'm no alacrity donkey. Again, memories of the painful HoT/PoF years with chrono, a profession reduced to a single way to play as the only provider of both quickness & alacrity...

Edited November 29, 2023 by Mevelios.4809

[ShadowKatt.6740]

3 minutes ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

That's diversity there, I'm glad it is - I'm no alacrity donkey. Again, memories of the painful HoT/PoF years with chrono, a profession reduced to a single way to play as the only provider of both quickness & alacrity...

I see it as quite the opposite. I get what you're saying, you want to join a group, you're a mesmer, they ask if you're running Alac and if you say no, you get booted. At the same time, with the state of things, you could roll in as a mesmer with....well, ANY build and get booted, because why do they need you? As it stands now, you're right, people only wanted Alac/Quick Chronos back then. Now, unless you're running a St/St Alac Mirage, you're in the same boat.

I've been reading the comments both here and in the other beta thread about the new rifle, and you wanna know how I feel right now? I wish they would take the Mirage, break it in half, and throw it in the trash. While most of the criticisms for the rifle pertain to the rifle itself and are generally very poignant criticisms, I have read over and over and over and over again how the rifle NEEDS to have Alacrity and Quickness so the meta Mirage builds can use it. You spoke about how Chrono's used to be pigeonholed into the Alac/Quick build, but right now I feel like if you're not running the meta Mirage build then you're just a liability in the eyes of this current game, and I don't like that feeling. It used to be that whenever one build became dominant the devs in charge of balance would break it, but with Mirage....well, I guess that's it. Either play their way or go play by yourself.

[Mevelios.4809]

1 hour ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

I see it as quite the opposite. I get what you're saying, you want to join a group, you're a mesmer, they ask if you're running Alac and if you say no, you get booted. At the same time, with the state of things, you could roll in as a mesmer with....well, ANY build and get booted, because why do they need you? As it stands now, you're right, people only wanted Alac/Quick Chronos back then. Now, unless you're running a St/St Alac Mirage, you're in the same boat.

It neither was my meaning, neither is my experience; most groups I encounter fill first the boon/heal/other special roles before grabbing dps, then they don't care however you play it unless you're running a build that's performing too poorly. Staff mirage is not the only way to play - if playing cdps I jump in with my axe/pistol & axe/torch and never got bothered (few exceptions with raids) about why would I play it over the staff, a weapon I personally dislike for being so slow and focused on auto-attack/ambush. Nobody's going to impose how should I play anyway!

Now if some key buffs were profession-locked, then that'd precisely be what happens. "You're the only one who can provide alacrity. Not playing the build for it? Get out!" Those were the HoT/PoF years.

1 hour ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

I have read over and over and over and over again how the rifle NEEDS to have Alacrity and Quickness so the meta Mirage builds can use it. You spoke about how Chrono's used to be pigeonholed into the Alac/Quick build, but right now I feel like if you're not running the meta Mirage build then you're just a liability in the eyes of this current game, and I don't like that feeling.

No offense to anyone who arrived after that era, but that suggestion's wrong considering we already have the very experience of a build doing both boons for years, which caused more harm than it did any good. So much I'm still unwilling to play chrono again. I'd love to be able to provide both again, but I know all too well how unhealthy it proved to be in the end. I doubt the team would willingly jump into that trap again!

As for the feeling you're getting, that falls on player behavior. There'll always be such people and won't stop despite how forgiving the game is; make some contacts with those that aren't all about "meta meta meta"!

Edited November 29, 2023 by Mevelios.4809

[draxynnic.3719]

13 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

I see it as quite the opposite. I get what you're saying, you want to join a group, you're a mesmer, they ask if you're running Alac and if you say no, you get booted. At the same time, with the state of things, you could roll in as a mesmer with....well, ANY build and get booted, because why do they need you? As it stands now, you're right, people only wanted Alac/Quick Chronos back then. Now, unless you're running a St/St Alac Mirage, you're in the same boat.

I've been reading the comments both here and in the other beta thread about the new rifle, and you wanna know how I feel right now? I wish they would take the Mirage, break it in half, and throw it in the trash. While most of the criticisms for the rifle pertain to the rifle itself and are generally very poignant criticisms, I have read over and over and over and over again how the rifle NEEDS to have Alacrity and Quickness so the meta Mirage builds can use it. You spoke about how Chrono's used to be pigeonholed into the Alac/Quick build, but right now I feel like if you're not running the meta Mirage build then you're just a liability in the eyes of this current game, and I don't like that feeling. It used to be that whenever one build became dominant the devs in charge of balance would break it, but with Mirage....well, I guess that's it. Either play their way or go play by yourself.

I've never been booted from an endgame instance group for playing mesmer, and I've never seen anyone else be booted for it either. From all I've seen and heard, it seems to be regarded as one of the stronger and more reliable professions overall for anything but healing (oh, look!). Mirage specifically has fallen a little out of favour, but... swings and roundabouts and all. It has uses elsewhere.

[Passerbye.6291]

Staff axe mirage does over 45k dps atm after the balance patch. DPS mirage was rather bad after the recent confusion changes, but we already knew it was bound to get some buffs and it will likely get tuned down to be in line with everyone else sooner rather than later.  We'll then proceed to create threads about how anet hates mesmers/mirage etc. It is interesting to see how we are unwilling to see something as good unless it way overperforms.

Did I enjoy axe mirage underperforming? No. But I like to take a step back and view things as objectively as I can instead of believing that they are trying to remove X or Y class from the game. The whole argument of mesmer is useless and brings nothing special to the table sounds so ignorant to me. We have portals, a reflect on low cooldown, clones to body block projectiles as a niche form of mitigation, plenty of CC, ranged power and condi damage that are high up there, a condi dps build that is very easy to play, has amazing sustain and does pretty good damage, a ranged power dps build that can opt to provide either alac or quick by switching a single trait and overcapping said boon with no boon duration requirement, letting you fulfill 3 different roles with a single set of gear.

I'm glad not everyone thinks mesmer is useless or unwanted, but seeing some people suggest that it is makes me question how well they play mesmer, or whether they play it at all. While this may sound like a personal attack, I truly don't see how someone can play the same class as me and still fail to see the things it has to offer. Especially saying things like if you aren't bringing staff staff mirage for alacrity, mirage is unwanted 2 days after a patch that massively buffed axe damage.

Btw for the reference, staff mirage was less desirable than DPS mirage, not the other way around. Staff mirage has a really slow ramp up to its damage while not doing more damage than other alacdpses in long fights either, has really low cleave, is reliant on there being a strong persistent target (aka a boss that doesn't phase, leave the fight or become invulnerable frequently) to consistently provide alac, suffers immensely in the absence of such a target because you can't provide proper alac uptime during fights like in between phases on Xera, and unlike quickness, alacrity remains useful even between phases as it serves to reduce the active cooldowns, allowing more of the party's skills to be ready for the start of a new phase.

From my experience, the reason why people may feel iffy about having mesmers is because we tend to be on the extreme ends. Whenever I see a chrono, I've come to expect either great dps/boon uptime or really bad damage/low boon uptime. Same thing happens with staff mirages, even in fights where the boss doesn't become invulnerable or leave the fight, people somehow fail to provide proper alac uptime while they should be able to overcap it in such scenarios. Having seen this multiple times, I can't blame people for having mixed feelings when they see a mesmer, meanwhile classes known to perform well with minimal input like quickdps herald, which is currently the absolute meta and objectively overtuned, tend to be a lot more reliable (btw I don't know why alac mirage uptimes tend to suffer so much in fights where they don't need to worry about boss phasing or clones dying since it is one of the easiest builds out there as well, got no answer for that I'm afraid).

Edited November 30, 2023 by Passerbye.6291
Typos and whatnot.

[Exciton.8942]

6 hours ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

Staff axe mirage does over 45k dps atm after the balance patch. DPS mirage was rather bad after the recent confusion changes, but we already knew it was bound to get some buffs and it will likely get tuned down to be in line with everyone else sooner rather than later.  We'll then proceed to create threads about how anet hates mesmers/mirage etc. It is interesting to see how we are unwilling to see something as good unless it way overperforms.

Did I enjoy axe mirage underperforming? No. But I like to take a step back and view things as objectively as I can instead of believing that they are trying to remove X or Y class from the game. The whole argument of mesmer is useless and brings nothing special to the table sounds so ignorant to me. We have portals, a reflect on low cooldown, clones to body block projectiles as a niche form of mitigation, plenty of CC, ranged power and condi damage that are high up there, a condi dps build that is very easy to play, has amazing sustain and does pretty good damage, a ranged power dps build that can opt to provide either alac or quick by switching a single trait and overcapping said boon with no boon duration requirement, letting you fulfill 3 different roles with a single set of gear.

I'm glad not everyone thinks mesmer is useless or unwanted, but seeing some people suggest that it is makes me question how well they play mesmer, or whether they play it at all. While this may sound like a personal attack, I truly don't see how someone can play the same class as me and still fail to see the things it has to offer. Especially saying things like if you aren't bringing staff staff mirage for alacrity, mirage is unwanted 2 days after a patch that massively buffed axe damage.

Btw for the reference, staff mirage was less desirable than DPS mirage, not the other way around. Staff mirage has a really slow ramp up to its damage while not doing more damage than other alacdpses in long fights either, has really low cleave, is reliant on there being a strong persistent target (aka a boss that doesn't phase, leave the fight or become invulnerable frequently) to consistently provide alac, suffers immensely in the absence of such a target because you can't provide proper alac uptime during fights like in between phases on Xera, and unlike quickness, alacrity remains useful even between phases as it serves to reduce the active cooldowns, allowing more of the party's skills to be ready for the start of a new phase.

From my experience, the reason why people may feel iffy about having mesmers is because we tend to be on the extreme ends. Whenever I see a chrono, I've come to expect either great dps/boon uptime or really bad damage/low boon uptime. Same thing happens with staff mirages, even in fights where the boss doesn't become invulnerable or leave the fight, people somehow fail to provide proper alac uptime while they should be able to overcap it in such scenarios. Having seen this multiple times, I can't blame people for having mixed feelings when they see a mesmer, meanwhile classes known to perform well with minimal input like quickdps herald, which is currently the absolute meta and objectively overtuned, tend to be a lot more reliable (btw I don't know why alac mirage uptimes tend to suffer so much in fights where they don't need to worry about boss phasing or clones dying since it is one of the easiest builds out there as well, got no answer for that I'm afraid).

We need to focus the feedback on play mechanics not numbers. It is easy for balance team to adjust numbers but not the gameplay.

For example, right now staxe mirage is benching high but maintaining that 10% chaos aura buff is hard and unfun to play with for most ppl. If its bench number gets adjust down to like 41-42k then again no one will play due to how difficult it is to play that spec well + its inherent slow dps ramp up.

[Passerbye.6291]

1 hour ago, Exciton.8942 said:

We need to focus the feedback on play mechanics not numbers. It is easy for balance team to adjust numbers but not the gameplay.

For example, right now staxe mirage is benching high but maintaining that 10% chaos aura buff is hard and unfun to play with for most ppl. If its bench number gets adjust down to like 41-42k then again no one will play due to how difficult it is to play that spec well + its inherent slow dps ramp up.

I mean, in an ideal world, I'd rather have it changed as well, but they probably have a general idea as to how they wish to proceed. I'm simply pointing out the numbers because people make baseless claims as to how mesmer is an underdog. It sounds especially ill informed to suggest so 2 days after a patch that clearly aims to streamline axe mirage gameplay, making it much less of a burden to play as well as balance changes that seek to create a good heal chronomancer spec. There are currently some bugs with mirage as well btw like axe 2 having a higher cooldown than intended.

We can argue that not all changes are on point, which is fair, but saying that mesmer isn't worth playing is something entirely different.
When it comes to discussing gameplay and not numbers, I think numbers matter a lot as well. As much as I'd love to see mesmer clones retarget the nearest enemy instead of disappearing when a target dies, or being able to generate idle clones or phantasms without a target to generate boons during downtimes aswell as a plethora of other things, these are already things that have been discussed again and again over the course of time.
Meanwhile the numbers play a very important role in balance, often more so than the actual gameplay, as you'd see people gravitate towards a build that  could do 50k dps even if it had some questionable mechanics. Subjectively, I'd enjoy seeing my favourite class outperform others, it would be interesting for a while for sure, but objectively, numbers that miss the mark need to be pointed out. I find it disingenuos when someone calls a class weak when it has multiple builds doing really well in terms of balance or when people try to downplay overtuned things. This isn't a mesmer-specific issue btw, we've seen this again and again over the course of time. Catalist does almost 48k damage? Elementalist mains raise from their downstates to claim that elementalist is 8 times harder than anything else in the game, makes people break their wrists therefore deserving to do obscene damage numbers. Scourge does 50k dps, then necro mains crawl out of cemeteries to suggest that scourge was never ever viable in the past 85.3 years and therefore deserves to power word kill everything within the vicinity.

Basically, all I want is, we all have biases towards things, but just try to take a step back and view things objectively, when something is out of line with the rest of the classes, do not deny it or try to deflect the matter or justify its presence.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Passerbye.6291

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

21 hours ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

(btw I don't know why alac mirage uptimes tend to suffer so much in fights where they don't need to worry about boss phasing or clones dying since it is one of the easiest builds out there as well, got no answer for that I'm afraid).

An interesting thing to note is that boons, including Alac, are only applied when the purple orb hits the target. This applies to the clones' orb as well.  So between the cast time and the time it takes for the orb to travel to the target, especially when your clones are a little far from the target, you lose a bit of time during those tiny windows. It doesn't help that uptime is heavily balanced around having Vigor and especially having 3 clones up at all time, with little buffer room unlike Chrono. So it takes a while to ramp up and overcap the boon.

And speaking from my own experience, my uptime heavily suffered when I couldn't maintain 3 Clones.  I also used to run Illusions, and I've noticed a clear difference when switching to Dueling and using the Deceptive Evasion (DE) trait where I could ensure 3 clones are up at all times. Whereas I could only give a tiny amount of Alac that falls off the moment the boss sneezes due to fluctuation in clone number before DE, with DE I could now comfortably cap Alac through the phase breaks of most fights. Although I still prefer to use Chrono unless a fight specifically calls for condi damage.     

 

 

[Passerbye.6291]

1 hour ago, ZephidelGRS.9520 said:

An interesting thing to note is that boons, including Alac, are only applied when the purple orb hits the target. This applies to the clones' orb as well.  So between the cast time and the time it takes for the orb to travel to the target, especially when your clones are a little far from the target, you lose a bit of time during those tiny windows. It doesn't help that uptime is heavily balanced around having Vigor and especially having 3 clones up at all time, with little buffer room unlike Chrono. So it takes a while to ramp up and overcap the boon.

And speaking from my own experience, my uptime heavily suffered when I couldn't maintain 3 Clones.  I also used to run Illusions, and I've noticed a clear difference when switching to Dueling and using the Deceptive Evasion (DE) trait where I could ensure 3 clones are up at all times. Whereas I could only give a tiny amount of Alac that falls off the moment the boss sneezes due to fluctuation in clone number before DE, with DE I could now comfortably cap Alac through the phase breaks of most fights. Although I still prefer to use Chrono unless a fight specifically calls for condi damage.     

Yeah, there is definitely some decision making involved when it comes to trait choices or the gameplay during certain fights. For instance, it is important to know that the trait that generates clones upon dodging can increase your 3 clone uptime in fights where you don't have adds, but in fights where there are adds, it can actually prove counterproductive as the clones generated that way focus the closest enemy and if said enemy is an add, your clone will die with them. Similarly, getting your regen uptime higher when in a party where noone provides sufficient uptime also factors into your boon uptime as you gain boon duration from regen as well. In fights where you are concerned with your clones dying to damage, choosing to not use your F2 shatter will give you the option to replace them frequently with staff 2 and 3.

On a dummy, mirage overcaps alacrity by 30 to 40% iirc, which, while not quite at chrono level, is still high enough to comfortably keep alacrity on straightforward fights with no phases or splits, but I guess the aforementioned trait and gameplay choices would be the deciding factor on determining whether you have horrible or good uptime on alac. So essentially, while easy to play, the fact that staff mirage requires some game/encounter knowledge is what makes it more of a wildcard compared to other simple boondps options.

[draxynnic.3719]

15 hours ago, ZephidelGRS.9520 said:

An interesting thing to note is that boons, including Alac, are only applied when the purple orb hits the target. This applies to the clones' orb as well.  So between the cast time and the time it takes for the orb to travel to the target, especially when your clones are a little far from the target, you lose a bit of time during those tiny windows. It doesn't help that uptime is heavily balanced around having Vigor and especially having 3 clones up at all time, with little buffer room unlike Chrono. So it takes a while to ramp up and overcap the boon.

And speaking from my own experience, my uptime heavily suffered when I couldn't maintain 3 Clones.  I also used to run Illusions, and I've noticed a clear difference when switching to Dueling and using the Deceptive Evasion (DE) trait where I could ensure 3 clones are up at all times. Whereas I could only give a tiny amount of Alac that falls off the moment the boss sneezes due to fluctuation in clone number before DE, with DE I could now comfortably cap Alac through the phase breaks of most fights. Although I still prefer to use Chrono unless a fight specifically calls for condi damage.     

 

 

Yeah, I've always found Mirage to be much more comfortable to play with DE. It's not the max damage benchmark build since in perfect conditions it doesn't contribute to DPS, but when conditions aren't perfect it's the closest thing you can get to a guarantee that you'll have the clones you want, when you want them. 

[Micah.3789]

22 hours ago, ZephidelGRS.9520 said:

boons, including Alac, are only applied when the purple orb hits the target

This is objectively false. Boons are applied when the cast is completed, by you and/or clones. You can even cast chaos vortex without a target to help maintain a bit of alac between phases.

The main reason some mirages struggle to maintain alac is clone interruption. Summoning new clones, shattering, or cloaking too rapidly can all cause your clones to miss casts. Phantasmal warlock is a major culprit as it produce 2x clones on a delay that can easily catch a less attentive mirage off guard. The trick is to cloak while casting it so your clones (without quickness) start casting ahead of you. You'll still be in the window when you're done so can immediately cast chaos vortex. When you're finished casting, use a shatter. Not only is this clone efficient (since you'll gain 2 clones a moment later), but it also serves as an indicator for when your phantasmal warlock is finished and therefore when it's safe to cloak again.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

Didn't have so much fun with Mesmer in ages! Spent the past 1-2 hours experimenting with Mirage, the Rifle Ambush skill and bleed stacks. The final result was horrible from the DPS point of view. Did not even scratch 5k with the perfect build and setup. But with proper positioning, I can coat the screen in purple clouds and stars now. Power build was slightly better, but still far beyond useful.

https://i.ibb.co/gPyTWXX/gw360.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/YDrSSLW/gw361.jpg

My two main problems with this skill are the very short range of 600 units only and it only does 4 hits. I utilized Sharper Images in combination with a bleed/condi build. But with the 4 hits only, I cannot get beyond 22 stacks. Even with the perfect setup. Chaining ambush after ambush after ambush wave ... no chance. There is potential. But in the current state, the ambush does not work out. At least for a condi approach.

But that wasn't your intention anyway, right? You want it to be a healer. And the Mesmer fanbase want it to be a healer.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

On 11/29/2023 at 11:17 AM, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

I see it as quite the opposite. I get what you're saying, you want to join a group, you're a mesmer, they ask if you're running Alac and if you say no, you get booted. At the same time, with the state of things, you could roll in as a mesmer with....well, ANY build and get booted, because why do they need you? As it stands now, you're right, people only wanted Alac/Quick Chronos back then. Now, unless you're running a St/St Alac Mirage, you're in the same boat.

I've been reading the comments both here and in the other beta thread about the new rifle, and you wanna know how I feel right now? I wish they would take the Mirage, break it in half, and throw it in the trash. While most of the criticisms for the rifle pertain to the rifle itself and are generally very poignant criticisms, I have read over and over and over and over again how the rifle NEEDS to have Alacrity and Quickness so the meta Mirage builds can use it. You spoke about how Chrono's used to be pigeonholed into the Alac/Quick build, but right now I feel like if you're not running the meta Mirage build then you're just a liability in the eyes of this current game, and I don't like that feeling. It used to be that whenever one build became dominant the devs in charge of balance would break it, but with Mirage....well, I guess that's it. Either play their way or go play by yourself.

I understand how you are getting the thoughts. Mirage IS talked about a lot...

But with regards to the rifle it's a bit opposite to what you're seeming to think.

 

Since the June balance patch the Mirage is LITERALLY the least played spec in group content.

Like it literally only was played for 0.5% of plays tracked by the GW2 Wingman site. Meanwhile Virtuoso was one of the most played specs in the game.

Mirage is the meta choice for complete Solo content and that's it.

 

The people talking about what the rifle can do for the Mirage is purely out of a desire to make it viable in group content while it currently isn't.

[Batalix.2873]

On 11/29/2023 at 10:17 AM, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

I see it as quite the opposite. I get what you're saying, you want to join a group, you're a mesmer, they ask if you're running Alac and if you say no, you get booted. At the same time, with the state of things, you could roll in as a mesmer with....well, ANY build and get booted, because why do they need you? As it stands now, you're right, people only wanted Alac/Quick Chronos back then. Now, unless you're running a St/St Alac Mirage, you're in the same boat.

I've been reading the comments both here and in the other beta thread about the new rifle, and you wanna know how I feel right now? I wish they would take the Mirage, break it in half, and throw it in the trash. While most of the criticisms for the rifle pertain to the rifle itself and are generally very poignant criticisms, I have read over and over and over and over again how the rifle NEEDS to have Alacrity and Quickness so the meta Mirage builds can use it. You spoke about how Chrono's used to be pigeonholed into the Alac/Quick build, but right now I feel like if you're not running the meta Mirage build then you're just a liability in the eyes of this current game, and I don't like that feeling. It used to be that whenever one build became dominant the devs in charge of balance would break it, but with Mirage....well, I guess that's it. Either play their way or go play by yourself.

I hope you mean breaking Mirage staff in half.

Alac Mirage is a trash idea that should never have existed. Up there with Firebrand and Mechanist as "design decisions with the most harmful effect on the overall game".

Axe Mirage is the best goddamn feeling DPS espec in the game.

Edited December 8, 2023 by Batalix.2873

[ShadowKatt.6740]

14 hours ago, Batalix.2873 said:

I hope you mean breaking Mirage staff in half.

Alac Mirage is a trash idea that should never have existed. Up there with Firebrand and Mechanist as "design decisions with the most harmful effect on the overall game".

Axe Mirage is the best goddamn feeling DPS espec in the game.

I'm showing my ignorance here but it's because I absolutely DO NOT chase the meta. Yes, that's what I mean, but moreso I mean that I don't know why a support mirage is a thing, and I think it's ONLY because the staff ambush gives alacrity and 3 staff clones grant a LOT of alacrity, and so mirage became THE mesmer support class. Now I've heard that as being St/St OR St/axe, although I don't know why the axe is involved or what it offers in terms of support.

Myself, my mirage build uses an axe, because I like my mirage being, well, mirage-y. So I use Axe/Focus and Scepter/Focus, and I agree, feels pretty good. I just hate that this spec that SHOULD be this great ambush, spike build has been relegated to "Give us Alacrity. Give us MORE alacrity. Keep giving us MORE Alacrity!" because for some reason that's absolutely NOT the same as the pre-PoF days when people only wanted Chronomancers in the party to "Give us Alacrity. Give us MORE alacrity. Keep giving us MORE Alacrity!"

Bad on Chronomancers, Good on Mirages....I dunno, double standards I guess.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

3 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

I'm showing my ignorance here but it's because I absolutely DO NOT chase the meta. Yes, that's what I mean, but moreso I mean that I don't know why a support mirage is a thing, and I think it's ONLY because the staff ambush gives alacrity and 3 staff clones grant a LOT of alacrity, and so mirage became THE mesmer support class. Now I've heard that as being St/St OR St/axe, although I don't know why the axe is involved or what it offers in terms of support.

Myself, my mirage build uses an axe, because I like my mirage being, well, mirage-y. So I use Axe/Focus and Scepter/Focus, and I agree, feels pretty good. I just hate that this spec that SHOULD be this great ambush, spike build has been relegated to "Give us Alacrity. Give us MORE alacrity. Keep giving us MORE Alacrity!" because for some reason that's absolutely NOT the same as the pre-PoF days when people only wanted Chronomancers in the party to "Give us Alacrity. Give us MORE alacrity. Keep giving us MORE Alacrity!"

Bad on Chronomancers, Good on Mirages....I dunno, double standards I guess.

People don't want Alacrity to leave Chronomancers. They want both Chronomancers and Mirages to be able to choose between a support build and DPS builds.

 

You just don't see people complaining about the Chronomancer quick/Alac because they have been able to provide them in the past few patches while Mirage couldn't.

Every profession has two specs that can provide support. Why should Mesmer be the only one where you can only provide support if you're a Chronomancer?

 

It's much more healthy for the game to have the varied build options instead of every spec only restricted to one playstyle.

This current patch Mirage seems to be able to be a very good damage dealer with the Axe. Snowcrows has the benchmarks for 46k-48k. It'll be more difficult than other builds but it's a capable damage dealer and still a much worse support spec than Chrono. 

You'll still see people talking about Mirage support. But not because Mirage is the only valid support spec for Mesmer but because Chrono is already a viable support spec so doesn't really need as much attention paid to it.

[Batalix.2873]

4 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

I'm showing my ignorance here but it's because I absolutely DO NOT chase the meta. Yes, that's what I mean, but moreso I mean that I don't know why a support mirage is a thing, and I think it's ONLY because the staff ambush gives alacrity and 3 staff clones grant a LOT of alacrity, and so mirage became THE mesmer support class. Now I've heard that as being St/St OR St/axe, although I don't know why the axe is involved or what it offers in terms of support.

Myself, my mirage build uses an axe, because I like my mirage being, well, mirage-y. So I use Axe/Focus and Scepter/Focus, and I agree, feels pretty good. I just hate that this spec that SHOULD be this great ambush, spike build has been relegated to "Give us Alacrity. Give us MORE alacrity. Keep giving us MORE Alacrity!" because for some reason that's absolutely NOT the same as the pre-PoF days when people only wanted Chronomancers in the party to "Give us Alacrity. Give us MORE alacrity. Keep giving us MORE Alacrity!"

Bad on Chronomancers, Good on Mirages....I dunno, double standards I guess.

Okay good. And yes, we are pretty much in agreement there. And honestly, I'm not opposed to the idea of Staff Mirage as a ranged version of the espec--it just never should have been given alacrity. I have so many thoughts on this but ultimately the camps are not going to be swayed: people who hide behind Quickbrand and PMech and AlacMirage apologism are just players who would make the game even easier and more passive if they could.

26 minutes ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

People don't want Alacrity to leave Chronomancers. They want both Chronomancers and Mirages to be able to choose between a support build and DPS builds.

 

You just don't see people complaining about the Chronomancer quick/Alac because they have been able to provide them in the past few patches while Mirage couldn't.

Every profession has two specs that can provide support. Why should Mesmer be the only one where you can only provide support if you're a Chronomancer?

 

It's much more healthy for the game to have the varied build options instead of every spec only restricted to one playstyle.

This current patch Mirage seems to be able to be a very good damage dealer with the Axe. Snowcrows has the benchmarks for 46k-48k. It'll be more difficult than other builds but it's a capable damage dealer and still a much worse support spec than Chrono. 

You'll still see people talking about Mirage support. But not because Mirage is the only valid support spec for Mesmer but because Chrono is already a viable support spec so doesn't really need as much attention paid to it.

This is a terrible stance to take. The game's mechanics are not deep and varied enough to have multiple viable builds across 27 especs. The meta invariably condenses down into the classes that do the most DPS and provide the most passive boons for the least amount of effort. This argument for "build options" is really just a disguised framing of wanting the game to homogenize classes even more and actually remove meaningful buildcraft for the sake of one or two "approved" builds per espec--which all increasingly play exactly like the other especs/professions.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

44 minutes ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

People don't want Alacrity to leave Chronomancers. They want both Chronomancers and Mirages to be able to choose between a support build and DPS builds.

Okay but why. I guess this is the part that I'm really struggling with. We as mesmers already have Five Innate Specializations. I'm not condescending to you, I know you know, but just as foundation here we have Domination, Dueling, Chaos, Illusion, and Inspiration. Of those five, Inspiration is and continues to be absolutely support based. It even says so on the wiki, but when we look at the traits inside of it it already lets us heal and boon our allies around us. We had support options before HoT was even a glimmer in someones eye. The way I see it is if you want to play a support version of any Espec all you have to do is slap Inspiration in there and there you go. Build your support class. Now we can talk about how good it is, how bad it is, but all of that should be kept inside the Inspiration line, not in the Chaos line, not in the Mirage line, but that seems to be where it's all bleeding into.

I'll reiterate here that I don't WANT the mirage to be a support spec. I want it to be the ambushing, spike damage that it was originally meant to be. That does NOT mean that you can't slap Inspiration into your build and be a very supporty mesmer assassin, but the former should not come at the expense of the latter. Every profession already has support options. Necromancers have Blood magic, Engineers have elixers and elixer guns, even Warriors have the Tactics line and a wide selection of banners. We don't need every Espec to fill both of those roles when one of them already exists. Chronomancers happen to be better at being supporters than base mesmers and I think they should lean into that. Let THEM be the best support spec they can be with their wells of boons and repeating shatters. Honestly, I look at the chronomancer and wonder WHY anyone would want an alac mirage when Split Second + Flow of Time + Stretched Time would seem to me to do a lot better than Chaos Vortex + Mirage Mantle. 

1 hour ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

You'll still see people talking about Mirage support. But not because Mirage is the only valid support spec for Mesmer but because Chrono is already a viable support spec so doesn't really need as much attention paid to it.

But what about base mesmer as a support build? And support virtuoso? I'll assume that you're right here and that Chrono is actually in a good place. Dunno, I don't really play with other people so I don't really use support abilities outside of carrying the Relic of Mercy and Medic's Feedback (Yes, -I- run Inspiration). My point is this, people are complaining about mirage not being a good enough support class when it shouldn't even be expected to be a support class in the first place. I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm just saying that if you want to play support Mirage then you shouldn't expect to be the best about it. I deal with this ALL THE TIME! I run Dungeons and Dragons (among others) games and I constantly have to remind my players that you CAN play a gnomish barbarian if you want to. No, you aren't going to be as tough, or as strong, or as fast as an orcish barbarian but that doesn't mean you can't do it if that's what makes you happy. But you ARE going to have to settle with NOT being the best out there. And that's what I see with all the people constantly, repeatedly, begging for Alac on the new rifle, or trait changes for more alac on mirage, or more quickness. They want the mirage to be just as good as all the other support classes. They want it to be better. Well if that's the case then from where I'm sitting just gut the mirage and make it that then. We were given the Especs so we COULD play a different role than just our base profession. Base mesmer is NOT a spike damage profession. We were also not a great support profession, or a....whatever....virtuoso is....supposed to be, we weren't that either. BUT NOW WE CAN BE!

 

44 minutes ago, Batalix.2873 said:

The game's mechanics are not deep and varied enough to have multiple viable builds across 27 especs. The meta invariably condenses down into the classes that do the most DPS and provide the most passive boons for the least amount of effort. This argument for "build options" is really just a disguised framing of wanting the game to homogenize classes even more and actually remove meaningful buildcraft for the sake of one or two "approved" builds per espec--which all increasingly play exactly like the other especs/professions.

I disagree with the first sentence but I agree with the second. I think there is PLENTY of depth in this game to do whatever you want. You can throw Dueling and Domination on a Chronomancer and go nuts with dual swords and lots of shatters. You can throw Inspiration and Chaos on a Mirage and buff your team from either inside the fight or out of it. You can even....okay, this is where I should say what you can do with the Virtuoso but I still have no idea what the Virtuoso DOES aside from fling daggers, so....just do whatever you want with it I guess. The point is you can, and each one should excel at THAT. If you absolutely MUST play a mesmer and absolutely MUST be the most supporty you can be, go play Chrono, but that SHOULD be the realm of the min-maxing, meta-chasing, no-fun-having power players that only care about numbers, and the game should not be catering to them.

And the rifle STILL should not get alacrity on its Death By Glitter ambush.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

2 hours ago, Batalix.2873 said:

 

This is a terrible stance to take. The game's mechanics are not deep and varied enough to have multiple viable builds across 27 especs. The meta invariably condenses down into the classes that do the most DPS and provide the most passive boons for the least amount of effort. This argument for "build options" is really just a disguised framing of wanting the game to homogenize classes even more and actually remove meaningful buildcraft for the sake of one or two "approved" builds per espec--which all increasingly play exactly like the other especs/professions.

Chronomancer currently has defensive support, offensive support, power DPS, and now likely a condi DPS build.

Firebrand has a HealQuick, CondiQuick, and CondiDPS.

Scourge can be AlacHeal, Alac DPS, or pure DPS.

 

Classes throughout the game have multiple builds that are all viable for providing both DPS as well as Support either sacrificing only a little DPS or a lot.

That makes for a much more fun game where you can have multiple options for how to play a character or a role that you want.

For the upmost top tier difficulty content yes options are much more limited but for 99% of the game a wider variety of available build is much better than only having one viable build for each spec.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

1 hour ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Okay but why. I guess this is the part that I'm really struggling with. We as mesmers already have Five Innate Specializations. I'm not condescending to you, I know you know, but just as foundation here we have Domination, Dueling, Chaos, Illusion, and Inspiration. Of those five, Inspiration is and continues to be absolutely support based. It even says so on the wiki, but when we look at the traits inside of it it already lets us heal and boon our allies around us. We had support options before HoT was even a glimmer in someones eye. The way I see it is if you want to play a support version of any Espec all you have to do is slap Inspiration in there and there you go. Build your support class. Now we can talk about how good it is, how bad it is, but all of that should be kept inside the Inspiration line, not in the Chaos line, not in the Mirage line, but that seems to be where it's all bleeding into.

I'll reiterate here that I don't WANT the mirage to be a support spec. I want it to be the ambushing, spike damage that it was originally meant to be. That does NOT mean that you can't slap Inspiration into your build and be a very supporty mesmer assassin, but the former should not come at the expense of the latter. Every profession already has support options. Necromancers have Blood magic, Engineers have elixers and elixer guns, even Warriors have the Tactics line and a wide selection of banners. We don't need every Espec to fill both of those roles when one of them already exists. Chronomancers happen to be better at being supporters than base mesmers and I think they should lean into that. Let THEM be the best support spec they can be with their wells of boons and repeating shatters. Honestly, I look at the chronomancer and wonder WHY anyone would want an alac mirage when Split Second + Flow of Time + Stretched Time would seem to me to do a lot better than Chaos Vortex + Mirage Mantle. 

But what about base mesmer as a support build? And support virtuoso? I'll assume that you're right here and that Chrono is actually in a good place. Dunno, I don't really play with other people so I don't really use support abilities outside of carrying the Relic of Mercy and Medic's Feedback (Yes, -I- run Inspiration). My point is this, people are complaining about mirage not being a good enough support class when it shouldn't even be expected to be a support class in the first place. I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm just saying that if you want to play support Mirage then you shouldn't expect to be the best about it. I deal with this ALL THE TIME! I run Dungeons and Dragons (among others) games and I constantly have to remind my players that you CAN play a gnomish barbarian if you want to. No, you aren't going to be as tough, or as strong, or as fast as an orcish barbarian but that doesn't mean you can't do it if that's what makes you happy. But you ARE going to have to settle with NOT being the best out there. And that's what I see with all the people constantly, repeatedly, begging for Alac on the new rifle, or trait changes for more alac on mirage, or more quickness. They want the mirage to be just as good as all the other support classes. They want it to be better. Well if that's the case then from where I'm sitting just gut the mirage and make it that then. We were given the Especs so we COULD play a different role than just our base profession. Base mesmer is NOT a spike damage profession. We were also not a great support profession, or a....whatever....virtuoso is....supposed to be, we weren't that either. BUT NOW WE CAN BE!

 

I disagree with the first sentence but I agree with the second. I think there is PLENTY of depth in this game to do whatever you want. You can throw Dueling and Domination on a Chronomancer and go nuts with dual swords and lots of shatters. You can throw Inspiration and Chaos on a Mirage and buff your team from either inside the fight or out of it. You can even....okay, this is where I should say what you can do with the Virtuoso but I still have no idea what the Virtuoso DOES aside from fling daggers, so....just do whatever you want with it I guess. The point is you can, and each one should excel at THAT. If you absolutely MUST play a mesmer and absolutely MUST be the most supporty you can be, go play Chrono, but that SHOULD be the realm of the min-maxing, meta-chasing, no-fun-having power players that only care about numbers, and the game should not be catering to them.

And the rifle STILL should not get alacrity on its Death By Glitter ambush.

The game has 3 options for every trait level. If each eSpec only has one viable build path then there is only ever one viable choice at each level.

Having Mirage be a viable support spec can have literally zero effect on anyone trying to play Mirage as an ambushy stealthy axe wielding assassin.

Just don't take the Alac/Support traits... The Alac Support Mirage WILL take the 2nd Master trait and the 1st Grandmaster trait. So as long as the 1st and 3rd Master traits and the 2nd and 3rd Grandmaster traits are viable then you're just fine... And as you say there's still the core spec lines so Inspiration and Chaos are good for the Elite Spec support traits and there are core spec lines good for DPS elite spec traits.

[draxynnic.3719]

3 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Okay but why. I guess this is the part that I'm really struggling with. We as mesmers already have Five Innate Specializations. I'm not condescending to you, I know you know, but just as foundation here we have Domination, Dueling, Chaos, Illusion, and Inspiration. Of those five, Inspiration is and continues to be absolutely support based. It even says so on the wiki, but when we look at the traits inside of it it already lets us heal and boon our allies around us. We had support options before HoT was even a glimmer in someones eye. The way I see it is if you want to play a support version of any Espec all you have to do is slap Inspiration in there and there you go. Build your support class. Now we can talk about how good it is, how bad it is, but all of that should be kept inside the Inspiration line, not in the Chaos line, not in the Mirage line, but that seems to be where it's all bleeding into.

I'll reiterate here that I don't WANT the mirage to be a support spec. I want it to be the ambushing, spike damage that it was originally meant to be. That does NOT mean that you can't slap Inspiration into your build and be a very supporty mesmer assassin, but the former should not come at the expense of the latter. Every profession already has support options. Necromancers have Blood magic, Engineers have elixers and elixer guns, even Warriors have the Tactics line and a wide selection of banners. We don't need every Espec to fill both of those roles when one of them already exists. Chronomancers happen to be better at being supporters than base mesmers and I think they should lean into that. Let THEM be the best support spec they can be with their wells of boons and repeating shatters. Honestly, I look at the chronomancer and wonder WHY anyone would want an alac mirage when Split Second + Flow of Time + Stretched Time would seem to me to do a lot better than Chaos Vortex + Mirage Mantle. 

But what about base mesmer as a support build? And support virtuoso? I'll assume that you're right here and that Chrono is actually in a good place. Dunno, I don't really play with other people so I don't really use support abilities outside of carrying the Relic of Mercy and Medic's Feedback (Yes, -I- run Inspiration). My point is this, people are complaining about mirage not being a good enough support class when it shouldn't even be expected to be a support class in the first place. I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm just saying that if you want to play support Mirage then you shouldn't expect to be the best about it. I deal with this ALL THE TIME! I run Dungeons and Dragons (among others) games and I constantly have to remind my players that you CAN play a gnomish barbarian if you want to. No, you aren't going to be as tough, or as strong, or as fast as an orcish barbarian but that doesn't mean you can't do it if that's what makes you happy. But you ARE going to have to settle with NOT being the best out there. And that's what I see with all the people constantly, repeatedly, begging for Alac on the new rifle, or trait changes for more alac on mirage, or more quickness. They want the mirage to be just as good as all the other support classes. They want it to be better. Well if that's the case then from where I'm sitting just gut the mirage and make it that then. We were given the Especs so we COULD play a different role than just our base profession. Base mesmer is NOT a spike damage profession. We were also not a great support profession, or a....whatever....virtuoso is....supposed to be, we weren't that either. BUT NOW WE CAN BE!

 

I disagree with the first sentence but I agree with the second. I think there is PLENTY of depth in this game to do whatever you want. You can throw Dueling and Domination on a Chronomancer and go nuts with dual swords and lots of shatters. You can throw Inspiration and Chaos on a Mirage and buff your team from either inside the fight or out of it. You can even....okay, this is where I should say what you can do with the Virtuoso but I still have no idea what the Virtuoso DOES aside from fling daggers, so....just do whatever you want with it I guess. The point is you can, and each one should excel at THAT. If you absolutely MUST play a mesmer and absolutely MUST be the most supporty you can be, go play Chrono, but that SHOULD be the realm of the min-maxing, meta-chasing, no-fun-having power players that only care about numbers, and the game should not be catering to them.

And the rifle STILL should not get alacrity on its Death By Glitter ambush.

You want mirage to be DPS-oriented rather than support. I'm going to channel the taco kid meme and ask why not both?

What the people who originally made alacmirage did wrong was giving it for free. Slot staff, you get alacrity and can still do full damage. So nerfs had to be applied to keep damage down. Linking it to a trait instead, though, meant that it could compete with DPS traits and both versions could coexist.

As for rifle mirage: like it or not, rifle is a support weapon. Might not be what you wanted it to be, but lack of a true healing weapon was one of the things holding healmes back. Fact of the matter is that the rifle ambush isn't made to be able to give alacrity with the trait, it will be a dead skill because rifle will only ever be used by chronomancer.