GW2 Sales/Revenue/Earnings Report 3Q-2023

[Gehenna.3625]

10 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

Sorry, I don't see the mistake your are mentioning. 93 billion = 93000 million (93,000 million with thousands separator), And 20 billion (GW2 exactely: 20.977 billion) are 20000 million (GW2 exactely: 20977 million which is 20,977 million with thousands separator). 1 billion = 1000 million (1,000 million). Or in other words: 1 billion = 10⁹ and 1 million = 10⁶

 

And this is exactly why your graph is wrong to say billions of krw. (Edit: perhaps you don't understand how graphs work. When you say a graph is expressed in billions, like you do, then it means that the 20,000 should be multiplied by one billion which equals 20 trillion, which is why NcSoft themselves say it's expressed in millions)

Can you read the line directly below the header of "PC Online Games"? There it says Unit: KRW and then what? Spoiler, it's not billion. So by stating in your graph that the unit is in billions of KRW you say that it's 20,977 x abillion instead of 20,977 x a million. 

And that's why NCSoft express the exact same number (20,977) in millions that you express in billions. 

10 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

 

Why do you think you know what I think, so that you could says that they don't actually make as much as I think? 😉

Well, that was based on your mistake, which is 1000 times more than it should be.

10 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

Since we don't know the costs of GW2/Anet because they are not reported individually, we actually cannot say whether there is a lot or a little (or no) profit left over from the sales.

No, but you can make a rough calculation based on real life figures (like average salary of a developer), which we did around the time of the layoffs NcSoft required. It's certainly not exact but it gives you a ballpark figure. I think it came down to a conservative calculation of 2 million usd per month and that's without calculating any taxes on the sales figures. In the end I can't be sure but NcSoft sure thought it wasn't enough when it went below 20,000 million krw.

10 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

My conclusion that KRW 20 billion per quarter is sufficient is only based on the assumption that if this amount was not sufficient, GW2 would have been discontinued years ago when the sales were much lower.

I agree. 20 billion KRW = 20,000 million KRW = 14.5 million USD.  But I didn't say anything to the contrary.

Well, so NcSoft saw fit to make Anet cut 30% of their staff a few years ago, so that also meant they didn't have enough margin as far as NcSoft was concerned. So my conclusion is that with the current staffing levels it has enough margin to carry on but they're taking on new staff now because they are working on a new game. Whether that's GW3 or something else I'm not sure but they're not taking on new staff because they're doing so much better. Otherwise we would see more resources put into GW2.

And again, you say it's 20,000 billion per quarter because you say the numbers in your graph are expressed in billions and not millions as the report says. 

Edited April 28 by Gehenna.3625

[Zok.4956]

4 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

And this is exactly why your graph is wrong to say billions of krw. (Edit: perhaps you don't understand how graphs work. When you say a graph is expressed in billions, like you do, then it means that the 20,000 should be multiplied by one billion which equals 20 trillion, which is why NcSoft themselves say it's expressed in millions)

What you wrote would be correct (and I would have made a mistake) if the scale label of the y-scale in my graph had been "20,000" (with a comma). But it isn't. It says "20.000" (with a decimal point), so that's the numerical value "20". Yes, the ".000" digits are actually unnecessary, but it's not wrong. It seems to me that you read the decimal points in the graph as thousands separator commas.

4 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

And again, you say it's 20,000 billion per quarter because you say the numbers in your graph are expressed in billions and not millions as the report says. 

And again, I didn't write anywhere, neither in my text nor in my graphics, about "20,000 billion" KRW quarterly sales. Maybe you need better glasses to better distinguish dots and commas. 😉

[RedNuii.5680]

On 4/27/2024 at 6:04 PM, Gehenna.3625 said:

GW2 has stabilized in recent times but they don't actually make as much as you think. 20,000 million krw is less than 15 million usd. So let's say about 5 million usd per month. Considering the total costs they will have every month of equipment, offices, software and mostly the salaries of staff, that's not actually a whole lot. And it's probably the reason why NcSoft cut their staff a few years ago.

How is 70 million dollars not enough for a live service game?? This is more than enough and its the reason NCSoft has greenlit their next 2 expansions. The layoffs in 2019 had nothing to do with low revenue and more to do with the fact that they tried to make another game using gw2 revenue and it didn't come to fruition so they abandoned it and the layoffs ensued.

Since 2022 ANET's workforce has grown by 15% while most other tech and game companies have had massive layoffs.

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, RedNuii.5680 said:

Since 2022 ANET's workforce has grown by 15% while most other tech and game companies have had massive layoffs.

Notice that this 15% growth is compared to the post-layoff state that saw a loss of one-third (at least, possibly more considering the wave of people quitting in months after it happened) of Anet's employees.

[RedNuii.5680]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Notice that this 15% growth is compared to the post-layoff state that saw a loss of one-third (at least, possibly more considering the wave of people quitting in months after it happened) of Anet's employees.

Grouch said that the team is about as large as it was during the development of LWS4 and about 15% larger than during the development of EoD. That was the exact quote.

[Astralporing.1957]

40 minutes ago, RedNuii.5680 said:

Grouch said that the team is about as large as it was during the development of LWS4 and about 15% larger than during the development of EoD. That was the exact quote.

Yes, i know. I also know that LS4 was when Anet pushed most of the devs off GW2 towards other projects, which resulted in things like cancellation of Expansion 3, IBS, and layoffs. EoD was when they were barely recovering from both. If you are comparing the sizeof the teams, both are actually times when those were at its worst. Much smaller than the team they had post-HoT, when they were able to concurrently work on LS3 and PoF (even though Anet's overall dev count was bigger later - and still is - it does not mean much if those devs aren't working on GW2).

Again, Anet "getting through period of growth when other companies suffered massive layoffs" is just due to the fact that Anet got through that layoff phase a bit earlier.

[RedNuii.5680]

17 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes, i know. I also know that LS4 was when Anet pushed most of the devs off GW2 towards other projects, which resulted in things like cancellation of Expansion 3, IBS, and layoffs. EoD was when they were barely recovering from both. If you are comparing the sizeof the teams, both are actually times when those were at its worst. Much smaller than the team they had post-HoT, when they were able to concurrently work on LS3 and PoF (even though Anet's overall dev count was bigger later - and still is - it does not mean much if those devs aren't working on GW2).

Again, Anet "getting through period of growth when other companies suffered massive layoffs" is just due to the fact that Anet got through that layoff phase a bit earlier.

Right but his quote is saying that the team is as big as it was during LWS4 development (pre-layoffs). That means we are back to the size of the team that delivered LWS4. That's a great thing to have, now we have no data on how many of those are working on gw2 or not or if this only includes people working on gw2. So that would be unwise to speculate on considering we have no base to go off of. So all we can go by is that the team is at a really healthy size right now.

Edited May 1 by RedNuii.5680

[Zok.4956]

6 hours ago, RedNuii.5680 said:

That means we are back to the size of the team that delivered LWS4.

We do not know the size of the team that delivered LWS4. Because at least one other team was working on an unannounced side project that got canceled. Its cancellation was given as a reason for the mass layoffs that took place a few months before the end of LWS4.

We also don't know the size of the teams that develop/have developed SotO and the expansion after SotO. And we don't know if there's another team working on something else.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

LOL good, im sure the exciting announcement of gw3 helped that revenue out as well.  Whats that nobody wants to invest in a game thats at EOS or abandoned, imagine that.

[Izzy.2951]

On 4/30/2024 at 9:40 PM, RedNuii.5680 said:

Grouch said that the team is about as large as it was during the development of LWS4 and about 15% larger than during the development of EoD. That was the exact quote.

I understand that PR speak is all about generating hype. But you guys read things wrong. Grouch said that the team is about the size of EoD AFTER launch, not during EoD development, thats very different things. Cos ppl get hired do a job for the expansion then leave, other went to other companies so it is very different the team size during development of EoD and after the launch of EoD that is what grouch said.

Anyway it is just PR speak and we are all seeing the scope and quality of the new expansions, it is worst than LWS4, EoD etc...

Edited May 2 by Izzy.2951

[Zok.4956]

On 4/30/2024 at 9:40 PM, RedNuii.5680 said:

Grouch said that the team is about as large as it was during the development of LWS4 and about 15% larger than during the development of EoD. That was the exact quote.

4 hours ago, Izzy.2951 said:

I understand that PR speak is all about generating hype. But you guys read things wrong. Grouch said that the team is about the size of EoD AFTER launch, not during EoD development, thats very different things.

Could one (of you) please provide a link to the conversation from which the quote comes. In order to have context in which the statement was made and to which question the answer was and what was said before and after the statement. Thanks.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

3 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

Could one (of you) please provide a link to the conversation from which the quote comes. In order to have context in which the statement was made and to which question the answer was and what was said before and after the statement. Thanks.

Our current team size is roughly what it was during the development of Living World Season 4 and about 15% larger than it was at the release of End of Dragons in 2022. Thanks to the support of our fans, we’ve been able to grow our team in recent years, but we’ve been very careful not to expand too quickly or beyond our means. Maintaining stability for our employees is a top priority for myself and the rest of our leadership team.

https://wccftech.com/guild-wars-2-qa-arenanet-on-switch-to-yearly-expansions-secrets-of-the-obscure-learnings-and-2024-update/

[RedNuii.5680]

On 5/1/2024 at 10:11 PM, Izzy.2951 said:

I understand that PR speak is all about generating hype. But you guys read things wrong. Grouch said that the team is about the size of EoD AFTER launch, not during EoD development, thats very different things. Cos ppl get hired do a job for the expansion then leave, other went to other companies so it is very different the team size during development of EoD and after the launch of EoD that is what grouch said.

Anyway it is just PR speak and we are all seeing the scope and quality of the new expansions, it is worst than LWS4, EoD etc...

 

On 5/2/2024 at 5:29 AM, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

Our current team size is roughly what it was during the development of Living World Season 4 and about 15% larger than it was at the release of End of Dragons in 2022. Thanks to the support of our fans, we’ve been able to grow our team in recent years, but we’ve been very careful not to expand too quickly or beyond our means. Maintaining stability for our employees is a top priority for myself and the rest of our leadership team.

https://wccftech.com/guild-wars-2-qa-arenanet-on-switch-to-yearly-expansions-secrets-of-the-obscure-learnings-and-2024-update/

Please refer to this quoted tweet and stop ignoring the facts. Doomer takes are only taken seriously when they don't contain blatant lies.

[Astralporing.1957]

On 5/1/2024 at 3:39 PM, RedNuii.5680 said:

Right but his quote is saying that the team is as big as it was during LWS4 development (pre-layoffs). That means we are back to the size of the team that delivered LWS4. That's a great thing to have, now we have no data on how many of those are working on gw2 or not or if this only includes people working on gw2. So that would be unwise to speculate on considering we have no base to go off of. So all we can go by is that the team is at a really healthy size right now.

Like i said, they started to siphon devs offf GW2 to other projects practically as soon as PoF got released. Whole LS4 was the time of team recuction, when (as i have already said) many (if not most) of their devs did not work on GW2 at all.

Also, a hint: layoffs didn't really hurt GW2 team size (directly at least), as the affected devs were from the non-gw2 projects that got cancelled. If you heard about a GW2 dev that got let off at that time, it's very likely they weren't working on GW2 anymore. Sure, there were some exceptions, but those people got laid off to make space for people from other projects that were being brought back. I am quite sure that post-layoff GW2 team size wasn't any smaller than the pre-layoff one, even if the number of Anet employees in general got significantly reduced. If you think post-layoff GW2 team size was bad, it's because it already was that way before it happened.

So, again, it's a comparison to one of the GW2's worst times. And the fact that post-EoD size was even lower than that is hardly optimistic either.

[Izzy.2951]

6 hours ago, RedNuii.5680 said:

 

Please refer to this quoted tweet and stop ignoring the facts. Doomer takes are only taken seriously when they don't contain blatant lies.

Fanboy takes. Do you understand the difference between the RELEASE of EoD and the DEVELOPTMENT of EoD to keep spreading lies? again i also said how expansions and gaming industry work in the other post.

Realistic takes seems to hurt a certain amount of people. Also enligteen us how SoTo, Gyala Delve and everything since years is not worst than LWS4/EoD and even IBS. Do you know the meaning of "recycled" and "filler content"?

Yeah the team that you are praising and that is so BIG is the team that made Gyala Delve, SoTo and is the team that has SPvP, WvW, Raids etc... on maintenance mode.

Edited May 3 by Izzy.2951

[Ashen.2907]

1 hour ago, Izzy.2951 said:

Fanboy takes. Do you understand the difference between the RELEASE of EoD and the DEVELOPTMENT of EoD to keep spreading lies? again i also said how expansions and gaming industry work in the other post.

Realistic takes seems to hurt a certain amount of people. Also enligteen us how SoTo, Gyala Delve and everything since years is not worst than LWS4/EoD and even IBS. Do you know the meaning of "recycled" and "filler content"?

Yeah the team that you are praising and that is so BIG is the team that made Gyala Delve, SoTo and is the team that has SPvP, WvW, Raids etc... on maintenance mode.

You claimed that Grouch said one thing but the posted quote and link show something else. It is not fanboying to request that you not intentionally make false statements. The game is in a kitten poor state in my opinion. You dont need to falsify facts to support that position. Making false statements undermines your point.

[Vayne.8563]

On 4/28/2024 at 8:04 AM, Gehenna.3625 said:

You made a big mistake with this. You say it's billions of korean won but it's actually millions. Check the financial reports very closely. Look at where it says "Unit". It's million and not billion. You got confused because above that they quote the totals in billions but that's because they say for example 93.2 billion instead of 93,196 million (Q3 2023 report) for the total sales for their PC division. Notice there's a point in the first amount and a comma in the second.

GW2 has stabilized in recent times but they don't actually make as much as you think. 20,000 million krw is less than 15 million usd. So let's say about 5 million usd per month. Considering the total costs they will have every month of equipment, offices, software and mostly the salaries of staff, that's not actually a whole lot. And it's probably the reason why NcSoft cut their staff a few years ago.

According to interviews, the staff is currently the same size as Season 4 was being worked on, and about 20% bigger then the release of EOD.

Edited to be more accurate.

Edited May 3 by Vayne.8563
accuracy

[Astralporing.1957]

1 minute ago, Vayne.8563 said:

According to interviews, the staff is currently 20% larger than it was when Season 4 was being worked on.

Untrue, see the quotes few posts back.

[Vayne.8563]

6 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Untrue, see the quotes few posts back.

Different interview I think. 

Guild Wars 2 Q&A - ArenaNet on Switch to Yearly Expansions, Secrets of the Obscure Learnings, and 2024 Updates (wccftech.com)

Edit: I got it wrong here's the quote from this interview.

"Our current team size is roughly what it was during the development of Living World Season 4 and about 15% larger than it was at the release of End of Dragons in 2022."

Edit 2: My point is, people keep saying, without proof, that we have less people working on the game. Anet is saying otherwise. I do wish people would stop making things up. Someone in this thread misquoted an interview and got accused of lying yet the claims of less people is supported by no evidence. Who is really making things up here?

Edited May 3 by Vayne.8563

[Astralporing.1957]

2 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Different interview I think. 

Guild Wars 2 Q&A - ArenaNet on Switch to Yearly Expansions, Secrets of the Obscure Learnings, and 2024 Updates (wccftech.com)

Read it again, then:

Quote

Our current team size is roughly what it was during the development of Living World Season 4 and about 15% larger than it was at the release of End of Dragons in 2022

(bolded the relevant parts).

[Vayne.8563]

14 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Read it again, then:

(bolded the relevant parts).

Yep I read it again before you posted and corrected it. Not really the point.

People like you come into threads to point out that OMG the staff isn't larger than you say it is, the proof says something different. Yet, when people say without proof at all that the staff is smaller, or they're working on a skeleton crew, I don't see you in those threads asking for proof.

Despite the percentage difference in what I claim, if the staff is roughly the same size as the very much lauded Season 4 crew, than all the people saying that the game is closing down, or in maintenance mode, or working on a skeleton crew are simply wrong. The post is corrected and still refutes the posts I'm referencing, even then. Shrugs.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

So, some are saying the Devs that worked on End of Dragons left the studio the day before EoD's release?  They didn't stick around for the big release party?  Didn't want to see how the release went?  Sad, if true. 

[Vayne.8563]

3 hours ago, Izzy.2951 said:

Fanboy takes. Do you understand the difference between the RELEASE of EoD and the DEVELOPTMENT of EoD to keep spreading lies? again i also said how expansions and gaming industry work in the other post.

Realistic takes seems to hurt a certain amount of people. Also enligteen us how SoTo, Gyala Delve and everything since years is not worst than LWS4/EoD and even IBS. Do you know the meaning of "recycled" and "filler content"?

Yeah the team that you are praising and that is so BIG is the team that made Gyala Delve, SoTo and is the team that has SPvP, WvW, Raids etc... on maintenance mode.

There are definitely lies being told, but I think the people telling them aren't the people you think they are. You have a theory. You have nothing to back up that theory. You offer no evidence. Someone else offers evidence and you accuse them of lying. In truth though, no one really knows. Interviews suggest the staff as the same time as during the development on Season 4. I posted one. Where's your proof?

[Astralporing.1957]

9 hours ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

So, some are saying the Devs that worked on End of Dragons left the studio the day before EoD's release?  They didn't stick around for the big release party?  Didn't want to see how the release went?  Sad, if true. 

Left the studio? Not necessarily. Left the GW2 team? Yep, that happened more than once before.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Same thing.  Would be sad if they left the team the day before launch.  Didn't stay around in case of any bugs or adjustments to be made.  Seems counter-productive.  🤷‍♂️