Any idea where Saldistead may be?

[Kalavier.1097]

Frode's journal mentions weeks of travel from his home lodge (location unknown, but they got a gift from Gaeta) to Saldistead. 

[Danikat.8537]

As far as I know that's the first time it's been mentioned and the only clues there are it's far to the north. Frode's journal mentions a lake nearby but that doesn't narrow it down.

It sounds like it was a bigger settlement (based on the numbers of people mentioned as having come from there) but there's a lot of the Northern Shiverpeaks, and it could be pretty much anywhere.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Those journals are very weird in pretty much all aspects, to me.

Far to the north during this timeframe would have been firmly Jormag / Icebrood territory with almost no homesteads. Bitterfrost Frontier is named that for a reason - it's the frontier into Jormag's territory, and no norn lived that far north. The only norn settlement so far north wasn't in the Shiverpeaks, but Drizzlewood - those in Bjora are old, abandoned, only Jora's Keep having been reclaimed by the Vigil (so, y'know, sometime after 1320).

In order to remain consistent with lore and not be a massive plot hole, this "far north" would have to be... south of Bitterfrost Frontier. So... west of Frostgorge Sound? Not that far north tbh.

 

But like Danikat, I think this is the first time Saldistead is mentioned.

[Lord Korag.8439]

Possibly somewhere in the Far Shiverpeaks, as the Norn originate from there. Now with Jormag gone, there is no reason going there.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

2 hours ago, Lord Korag.8439 said:

Possibly somewhere in the Far Shiverpeaks, as the Norn originate from there. Now with Jormag gone, there is no reason going there.

Frode's journals aren't pre-Jormag, and they aren't post-Jormag either. It's from when Arina was born, and she certainly isn't a mere 2 years old in SotO, nor 150+ years old.

It wouldn't make much sense for Frode to have lived, or tried to bring a baby to, a homestead in the heart of Jormag's territory.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Kalavier.1097]

55 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Frode's journals aren't pre-Jormag, and they aren't post-Jormag either. It's from when Arina was born, and she certainly isn't a mere 2 years old in SotO, nor 150+ years old.

It wouldn't make much sense for Frode to have lived, or tried to bring a baby to, a homestead in the heart of Jormag's territory.

It's also explicitly during a time when Knut is established as leader of Hoelbrek, and Gaeta gives a gift.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

It's also explicitly during a time when Knut is established as leader of Hoelbrek, and Gaeta gives a gift.

Yeah, given Arina's apparent age in SotO, the journals seem to be ~20-25 years prior. Can't imagine it being more than 35 years, Arina doesn't seem that old (nor Frode). So I imagine the journals take place in 1305-ish AE tops, making Arina roughly Canach's age.

Would be weird as heck for Frode to be going into the Far Shiverpeaks when Jormag's at full might. Though he does talk about using the path refugees took south so... It's just weird, everything points to the homestead being literally within the heart of Jormag's territory, but having "weird things happening" at night.

It's the most seemingly contradictory piece of lore since EoD by far.

[Kalavier.1097]

6 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Yeah, given Arina's apparent age in SotO, the journals seem to be ~20-25 years prior. Can't imagine it being more than 35 years, Arina doesn't seem that old (nor Frode). So I imagine the journals take place in 1305-ish AE tops, making Arina roughly Canach's age.

Would be weird as heck for Frode to be going into the Far Shiverpeaks when Jormag's at full might. Though he does talk about using the path refugees took south so... It's just weird, everything points to the homestead being literally within the heart of Jormag's territory, but having "weird things happening" at night.

It's the most seemingly contradictory piece of lore since EoD by far.

Could be something that was on the furthest edge of known territory, a group that tried resettling to the north but it didn't work out?

 

[mandala.8507]

Arina is younger than Braham, according to the first of Frode's journal entries.

[Kalavier.1097]

8 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Arina is younger than Braham, according to the first of Frode's journal entries.

I wonder what exactly happened to the mom. It's unclear.

Also, I think I have a location. the ruins in the Aberrant forest. It'd be before Jora's Keep is established (Vigil isn't a thing yet at all), at the borders of icebrood territory, and a hefty distance away from Hoelbrek region. If it's a location we can see ingame, that'd fit the bill. Miasma being how weird the forest is, and the voices (and how some theorize Wurm forcibly stopped the other Norn from becoming a boneskinner).

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

11 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Arina is younger than Braham, according to the first of Frode's journal entries.

Yes, so as I said, Arina would be ~20-25.

During SotO, in 1336 AE, Braham would be 27. As he was 17 in 1326 AE.

 

Dunno why I got reacted with a confused emoji for my post saying this.

2 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I wonder what exactly happened to the mom. It's unclear.

Also, I think I have a location. the ruins in the Aberrant forest. It'd be before Jora's Keep is established (Vigil isn't a thing yet at all), at the borders of icebrood territory, and a hefty distance away from Hoelbrek region. If it's a location we can see ingame, that'd fit the bill. Miasma being how weird the forest is, and the voices (and how some theorize Wurm forcibly stopped the other Norn from becoming a boneskinner).

The "borders of icebrood territory" is Bitterfrost Frontier.

The entire map's narrative is that they're at the edge of Jormag's territory, which is why the Bitter Cold area is a thing - it's that close to Jormag that the temperatures became so frigid as to prevent access going any further north, that even icebrood end up freezing by getting too close. Hence the whole elixir subplot:

Elder Ulf: In the far north, just beyond civilization, there exists an expanse of tundra overrun by Svanir and Jormag's icebrood.

Elder Ulf: It is believed that Jormag has taken up residence nearby.

Elder Ulf: And that the Elder Dragon's influence corrupts all who go there.

Elder Ulf: The only safe place is a kodan sanctuary where the quaggan and kodan residents stubbornly refuse to give up the fight.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Journey_to_Bitterfrost_Frontier

It's also worth noting that Bitterfrost Frontier is called the "far north" in S3E3:

Elder Shaman Aukje: Braham has gone to the far north in search of a lost magical scroll he plans to use on Eir's bow.

<Character name>: That sounds like a fitting way to honor his mother.

Elder Ulf: There is no more dangerous area in the Shiverpeaks. I wish you good hunting.

So "far north" != "Far Shiverpeaks". It's just... decently north, really. So Saldistead could be west of Frostgorge, or a bit east of Bitterfrost, before Jormag moved in, since this was about 20-25 years ago.

EDIT: I see someone's on a confused reaction spam on my posts yet again.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[mandala.8507]

37 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Yes, so as I said, Arina would be ~20-25.

This line:

21 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Can't imagine it being more than 35 years, Arina doesn't seem that old (nor Frode).

Led me to believe you didn't know she was younger than Braham for certain, so I chimed in.

[Kalavier.1097]

59 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

So "far north" != "Far Shiverpeaks". It's just... decently north, really. So Saldistead could be west of Frostgorge, or a bit east of Bitterfrost, before Jormag moved in, since this was about 20-25 years ago.

 

And Braham left his guild around Jora's Keep, which was the Vigils northernmost outpost. So it's not like we haven't had confirmation of people being that far north before Jormag was put to sleep in season 3.

Also we had the Kodan group in Bjora, who were native/stranded in that area north of Bitterfrost.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

16 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

And Braham left his guild around Jora's Keep, which was the Vigils northernmost outpost. So it's not like we haven't had confirmation of people being that far north before Jormag was put to sleep in season 3.

Also we had the Kodan group in Bjora, who were native/stranded in that area north of Bitterfrost.

Jora's Keep was a Vigil outpost maintained by access from Grothmar Valley, though. It wasn't an old homestead that was largely independent and an actual place of living.

And while the Still Waters Speaking group is a weird situation given that's the heart of Jormag's territory which shouldn't be possible given icebrood mindless hostility, they got stranded there while fleeing Jormag's flight south and got stuck from the water freezing up. They hadn't even been there a full generation, seeing how the (former) Honor and Claw weren't elected there by all indication; and above that, they're in isolation, cut off from the outside, only very recently making contact with Jora's Keep. Arguably, Still Waters Speaking only survived because Jormag passed them by and settled near Bitterfrost Frontier before Braham's group forced it to go to northern Drizzlewood for narrative demand.

This is a far cry from a homestead of generations that has constant contact and trade with Hoelbrak by land route. That'd be like saying there's a village in SE Orr that's fully inhabited by Orrians with constant trade with Mount Maelstrom until it got wiped out by something not Zhaitan or Risen.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Kalavier.1097]

7 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Jora's Keep was a Vigil outpost maintained by access from Grothmar Valley, though. It wasn't an old homestead that was largely independent and an actual place of living.

And while the Still Waters Speaking group is a weird situation given that's the heart of Jormag's territory which shouldn't be possible given icebrood mindless hostility, they got stranded there while fleeing Jormag's flight south and got stuck from the water freezing up. They hadn't even been there a full generation, seeing how the (former) Honor and Claw weren't elected there by all indication; and above that, they're in isolation, cut off from the outside, only very recently making contact with Jora's Keep. Arguably, Still Waters Speaking only survived because Jormag passed them by and settled near Bitterfrost Frontier before Braham's group forced it to go to northern Drizzlewood for narrative demand.

This is a far cry from a homestead of generations that has constant contact and trade with Hoelbrak by land route. That'd be like saying there's a village in SE Orr that's fully inhabited by Orrians with constant trade with Mount Maelstrom until it got wiped out by something not Zhaitan or Risen.

Hoelbrek didn't have constant contact though, It's mentioned they had grown apart and distant. They are also "In the far north" with the winter storms being so fierce they cannot effectively travel north.

We know the lodge is to the west of a lake, as that is where Sejm lead them before his death. So it could easily be on the other side of the water that spawned out of Drakkar Lake.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

38 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Hoelbrek didn't have constant contact though, It's mentioned they had grown apart and distant. They are also "In the far north" with the winter storms being so fierce they cannot effectively travel north.

We know the lodge is to the west of a lake, as that is where Sejm lead them before his death. So it could easily be on the other side of the water that spawned out of Drakkar Lake.

But the very fact that Frode traveled to and fro on multiple occasions shown that they weren't really that far apart and distant, and "in the far north with winter storms so fierce they cannot effectively travel north" is stated to be the situation in Bitterfrost Frontier and even Frostgorge Sound - the former being called "the far north" by NPCs. So "the far north" != "only the Far Shiverpeaks".

If the homestead was west of a lake - that means the lake's to the east and there certainly isn't one to the abandoned Bjora forest village you mentioned. So it can't be that place. Unless that lake happened to be the one Kralkatorrik erupted from but that's a very weird kitten way to reference it, and would place it as being Longeye's Stead more than anything. Which I doubt given all the descriptions (and why travel through Jormag territory when you could through charr territory - safer by far).

Since Bitterfrost Frontier is called the far north and has a lake, it feels most logical to assume that Saldistead is west of Bitterfrost.

Also while it was called Drakkar Lake, I don't think it's ever called that in modern times (certainly too big to be a lake now) - I don't think that body of water is called anything, unfortunately (Chasing Ghosts references Drakkar Lake though not by name, but also in mainly historical context; Still Waters Speaking (story) mentions a lake, but "northwest" corner of the lake being Sifhalla, so it is referencing Fractured Lake not the massive body of water that Sifhalla is inside of now, and is on the wrong side of Sifahalla to be Drakkar Lake (though looking at it, the hole in the Fractured Lake perfectly matches the angle and position of Drakkar in the gw1 lake, but as said it's on the wrong kitten side of Sifhalla...); The Hunt Begins also talks of Drakkar in a lake but never names it weirdly enough). Kind of annoying, seems they wanted to keep it being Drakkar Lake, but couldn't settle on calling it, and reference Fractured Lake as a different thing but that's equally haunted with voices as if it was the og Drakkar Lake? Confusing.

 

Anyways, given all hints, I'd argue "west of Bitterfrost Frontier" is the most probable location. It's west of a lake, and said lake is called "the far north" like Saldistead. And while it might've been used by the norn fleeing the north, it wasn't overrun with Jormag's minions.

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

But the very fact that Frode traveled to and fro on multiple occasions shown that they weren't really that far apart and distant, and "in the far north with winter storms so fierce they cannot effectively travel north" is stated to be the situation in Bitterfrost Frontier and even Frostgorge Sound - the former being called "the far north" by NPCs. So "the far north" != "only the Far Shiverpeaks".

I'll point out that nothing says Frode has traveled to and from that location many times. Infact, it almost sounds like a rare trip with the explicit mention how the place has grown apart from them, and is in Isolation.

The place is described as being "A few weeks away" after a week a travel. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Kalavier.1097

[Lord Korag.8439]

On 11/28/2023 at 6:24 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

It's the most seemingly contradictory piece of lore since EoD by far.

Yeah. Since the scrap of the IBS several retcons of Jormag or Primordus could be seen. I am only waiting when those two will be literally deleted.

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, Lord Korag.8439 said:

Yeah. Since the scrap of the IBS several retcons of Jormag or Primordus could be seen. I am only waiting when those two will be literally deleted.

What?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 11/29/2023 at 1:31 PM, Kalavier.1097 said:

I'll point out that nothing says Frode has traveled to and from that location many times. Infact, it almost sounds like a rare trip with the explicit mention how the place has grown apart from them, and is in Isolation.

Frode's very act of moving south to Hoelbrak for Arina to be born and doesn't seem to have issues with knowing the route to take would suggest regular travel is an occurrence. It might not be "every month travel happens", but more than once a year. And I mean for the homesteaders in general, not Frode specifically.

On 11/29/2023 at 1:31 PM, Kalavier.1097 said:

The place is described as being "A few weeks away" after a week a travel. 

So is Ascalon City from Ebonhawke. Roughly same distance between Hoelbrak and Bitterfrost - and unlike in Ascalon, there are mountains that force winding paths in the Shiverpeaks, canonically at least if not mechanically.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Frode's very act of moving south to Hoelbrak for Arina to be born and doesn't seem to have issues with knowing the route to take would suggest regular travel is an occurrence. It might not be "every month travel happens", but more than once a year. And I mean for the homesteaders in general, not Frode specifically.

So is Ascalon City from Ebonhawke. Roughly same distance between Hoelbrak and Bitterfrost - and unlike in Ascalon, there are mountains that force winding paths in the Shiverpeaks, canonically at least if not mechanically.

Frode's journal directly references following a road the refugees took, which was littered with bodies and remains. It's not like he was traveling without some sort of guiding trail.

Quote

We've stayed out of sight, following the path that the refugees took southward. Bodies line the road. Bloody remnants are just about everywhere—beast and norn alike. I don't know how many lost on their way, but that number is likely significant.

Infact, nothing mentions moving south away from Saldistead. They actually describe moving AWAY from Hoelbrek before Arina is born.

Quote

For now, we fortify. Come winter, we'll have one more belly to keep full. A smaller one, but game is less bountiful on this side of the Shiverpeaks nonetheless. We all miss Hoelbrak.

Also, wasn't it something more like 3 days to a week for the trip from Ebonhawke to Ascalon, with them setting up camp 3 times?

Edited December 1, 2023 by Kalavier.1097

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

12 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Frode's journal directly references following a road the refugees took, which was littered with bodies and remains. It's not like he was traveling without some sort of guiding trail.

Infact, nothing mentions moving south away from Saldistead. They actually describe moving AWAY from Hoelbrek before Arina is born.

Also, wasn't it something more like 3 days to a week for the trip from Ebonhawke to Ascalon, with them setting up camp 3 times?

Roads built in mountainous areas tend to swerve around said mountains even with modern technology. It seemed like the refugees in this context were the ones fleeing Jormag 150 years ago, so I doubt they had an actual paved road to follow, it was most likely a heavily trodden (by hundreds of thousands of norn in the exodus) path that got marked.

You do realize they'd have had to left Saldistead for Hoelbrak to be leaving Hoelbrak to return to Saldistead, right? "We all miss Hoelbrak" means they came from Hoelbrak on that trek, but they're originally from Saldistead. And there's nothing to suggest it was one time thing.

No specific length is given in the novel, four nights are explicitly mentioned, including the ones they depart and arrive, with several in-between mentioned but too uneventful to be part of the novel. But unlike Frode, they had a more or less straight route and even got to double time it with Rytlock's company across a lake. It's still far, far longer than what would be possible in-game by any standard. ANet's always played it fast and loose with how long it takes for a group to get form Point A to Point B, but keep in mind that Frode's group had Arina and Na with them - that's not going to be a fast travel, and will definitely be slower than 6 individuals moving as fast as they could to remain undetected.

[Kalavier.1097]

5 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Roads built in mountainous areas tend to swerve around said mountains even with modern technology. It seemed like the refugees in this context were the ones fleeing Jormag 150 years ago, so I doubt they had an actual paved road to follow, it was most likely a heavily trodden (by hundreds of thousands of norn in the exodus) path that got marked.

You do realize they'd have had to left Saldistead for Hoelbrak to be leaving Hoelbrak to return to Saldistead, right? "We all miss Hoelbrak" means they came from Hoelbrak on that trek, but they're originally from Saldistead. And there's nothing to suggest it was one time thing.

No specific length is given in the novel, four nights are explicitly mentioned, including the ones they depart and arrive, with several in-between mentioned but too uneventful to be part of the novel. But unlike Frode, they had a more or less straight route and even got to double time it with Rytlock's company across a lake. It's still far, far longer than what would be possible in-game by any standard. ANet's always played it fast and loose with how long it takes for a group to get form Point A to Point B, but keep in mind that Frode's group had Arina and Na with them - that's not going to be a fast travel, and will definitely be slower than 6 individuals moving as fast as they could to remain undetected.

I'm not really sure what lore books you are referencing, because some of these details aren't at all included Linking for direct reference. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frode's_Journal 

The Refugees mentioned would be the ones fleeing Saldistead, not 150 year old corpses or events. Also, only Sejm and Frode traveled back to Saldistead, and the "We all miss hoelbrek" is them leaving Hoelbrek to another location. Also, Ragna and Arina aren't included in any of the trips.  Even if Saldistead isn't in Bjora, it was apparently a major settlement with a lot of Norn, and was west of a Lake that was coated in Miasma, which sounds like stuff Drakkar/the Aberrants do.

Entry one: There is a line "They've grown apart from us, our people. Knut is worried what they'll do in isolation." Which does imply Frode and Sejm are from, or lived at Saldistead. However, if they had yearly contact with the settlement, why would Knut be worried about them being isolated and grown apart? The phase "Grown apart" and "Isolation" would imply that the community there had been out of contact. It very much seems like Knut had asked Frode and Sejm to travel far to the north to check on them. This is before winter, though a storm is making travel hard. They mention "For now, we Fortify." And that game is less bountiful on this side of the shiverpeaks. They miss Hoelbrek. So Ragna, Sejm, and Frode left Hoelbrek and went to another settlement. They are not at Saldistead or returning there as a group. Eir has gifted them mixtures that helped her before Braham was born (So Arina is, at the most, one year younger then Braham or so, depending how long Norn pregnancies last). 

Entry two: Winter is freshly here, Arina is born. They mention Wolf's teachings, and elders are watching over Ragna and Arina. Frode is helping repair the outer walls of the settlement. The only known walled settlement we've seen ingame (outside Hoelbrek, somewhat) is Craigstead. I believe that is where they are living based on how heavily they mention wolves and Ranga as a former priestess of Wolf. It's also a spot where refugees from the north would take shelter reasonably.

Entry three: Knut has written them a letter about dire news. And they recent had arrivals from the north/Saldistead. They don't speak, children are without parents, the wolves terrified. Only Ragna is figured to be able to communicate with them, but she's miserable and incredibly saddened by something and thus can't rise and talk to them. The refugees stay by the fires, eating their food. Knut promises to send rations when he can. This would tie into how Craigstead asked Knut for help in Flames and Frost, with the two settlements having good relations and helping each other. Sejm is mentioned again, talking about Wurm speaking to him. Frode has not heard the call, and is afraid of what they'll find since they will have to go before Spring's planned trip anyway.

Entry 4: Before leaving, Frode sees Ragna under blankets, and Arina playing with a doll gifted by Gaerta Whitebear, Knut's wife. Sejm and Frode travel north, though unknown beasts howl in the darkness of the trees and the travel is harsh. They travel along the road the refugees (Recently arrived, not 150 years old), but hidden, as it's lined with bodies of beast and Norn, dead where they fall. A huge number of dead are noted. A survivor, before they left, mentioned somebody must've stayed behind, but Frode is doubtful anybody is left, or that he will even return again.  

Entry 5: Saldistead was empty, not even bodies left there. It was empty and just dust and echoes. They go east to a lake, but the air is thick with Miasma. Nothing is around. Sejm rushed onto the lake and started to transform, crying out for Wurm. The transformation halted, and Sejm crashed beneath the waves with his limbs breaking off, killed. (I suspect the theory about Wurm purposefully stopping a boneskinner transformation is perhaps true, with Wurm claiming Sejm and causing him to die rather then give him up to Jormag). Frode is nearly home, but is broken.

Entry 6: five years later. Frode leaves the settlement, broken and haunted by that lake. He hopes Arina forgets him and Ragna is apparently dead at this point from unknown causes. This is where he runs into Astral Ward and joins them.

 

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by Kalavier.1097

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

5 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I'm not really sure what lore books you are referencing, because some of these details aren't at all included Linking for direct reference. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frode's_Journal 

The Refugees mentioned would be the ones fleeing Saldistead, not 150 year old corpses or events. Also, only Sejm and Frode traveled back to Saldistead, and the "We all miss hoelbrek" is them leaving Hoelbrek to another location. Also, Ragna and Arina aren't included in any of the trips.  Even if Saldistead isn't in Bjora, it was apparently a major settlement with a lot of Norn, and was west of a Lake that was coated in Miasma, which sounds like stuff Drakkar/the Aberrants do.

I'll admit I misremember the specifics of "the road the refugees took southward", but my interpretation of Arina and Na mentioned is that they were with them for part of the journey, but left behind as Frode went ahead to check out the situation. Either way, again, even if this "sounds like stuff Drakkar / the Aberrants do", it's in the wrong cardinal direction for the village to be in Bjora.

If the lake is to the east, which is the right hand side of the world map, that puts the village to the west of the lake, the left hand side of the world map. Or in other words, that would put the village in Drizzlewood Coast or thereabouts. Which was unaffected by Drakkar and the Aberrants - or anything of note 25ish years ago.

To visualize it for you.

If the lake is to the east, the village is to the west. Kryta is to the west - ergo, Saldistead is on Kryta's side of the Shiverpeaks / mysterious lake.

And not only that, but the norn would be VERY well aware to avoid Drakkar Lake 25 years ago. This isn't pre-Jormag when they only treated the lake as forbidden and haunted, this is oh kitten that's an Elder Dragon champion that turns people who get too close time period. In fact, as evidence by Still Water Speaking, the norn did not go near the area since the kodan arrived until IBS. Drakkar's whispers didn't reach beyond the valley until the deaths of the Elder Dragons within the past 10 years - a good 15 years after the events mentioned in Frode's journal.

Not only that, but the entries make it clear: whatever happened at the lake is new. It wasn't an issue last time Frode and the others were at Saldistead.

 

Either way, this journal makes no sense unless the location of Saldistead is south of Jormag's territory - south of the Far Shiverpeaks - because the norn were unable to go to those areas, let alone settle there, between 1165 AE and 1334 AE. The events in the journal took place roughly 1305 AE, give or take a few years, given Arina's age. Therefore, without being a massive contradiction in lore, because even if some kodan were left alive in a small isolated valley, the norn didn't go back north because the tooth never got cracked. And even if they did, this is well after the norn were aware to avoid Drakkar Lake because dragon champion, and the journal makes it clear: whatever transpired was both new and unusual. All evidence and reason points to it NOT being tied to Jormag. And certainly not occurring in Bjora Marches even if about Drakkar Lake, because it is in the wrong cardinal direction.