Why did Orr lose to the Charr

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Is this one of these head Canon = facts threads? 

Yep it is. Nice! I have something to read for a while. 

Dont mind me. Just getting comfy. 

[Justine.6351]

Yeah it didn't make a lot of sense for Orr to lose so quickly.

[Kalavier.1097]

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Strictly speaking, it is. Avatars are god magic (ArenaNet was mostly careful to only give avatars to enemies that were human and/or connected to the gods in some fashion, and in MOX's case, it was explained as not actually being avatars but MOX having some form of multifunctional core and the 'avatars' were actually different modes of operation), and human racial skills are tapping into the power of the gods that lingers in humans. There's also divine fire, although it wouldn't surprise me if that gets retconned to be something more directly related to the Forgotten than the gods. However, human racial skills also demonstrate the broad maximum power level that humans can tap into... and conventional magic has more potential overall.

And we also see clear indications that Risen are able to tap into these powers as well as living humans are, so the claim that the living Orrians were stronger than the Risen due to having access to god magic is patently false. What we see is at or above what those individuals were likely capable of achieving in life, and Zhaitan was likely able to cherrypick the most powerful spellcasters in Orr's history - apart from Reza and a couple of others that were called out as having been there at that time, there is no guarantee that any of the Risen spellcasters we fight were alive at the time of the Cataclysm. Heck, even if they were, they probably weren't part of the army - the reason the army left the city to fight outside seems to be that the Orrians wanted to stop the charr before they were close enough to use the Cauldrons, so those that fought the charr would have died somewhere on the route and might not have been in a place where Zhaitan was able to collect them. 

Okay, being fair, yes the god magic in form of avatars and the divine fire. I will concede that as being true. That is not at all what the other guy was trying to argue however, with vague and completely unclear implications that the priests were super-forms of classes or whatever lol.

 

Also a fun thing is that the Awakened could tap into those powers. Warden Amala uses the Avatar forms from her dervish skills despite being killed and Awakened. On that same angle, any risen Dervish/priests would be able to tap into those powers as well, if channeled enough Risen energy to be champions/powerful. 

 

Also another aspect is that even if the spellcasters/priests of the gods were preparing to fight, the Army being routed and destroyed in 12 hours would give them zero warning the lines have broken and the Charr were rampaging across Orr. It'd kill any prep time they had.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 11/22/2023 at 11:32 PM, Kalavier.1097 said:

Okay, being fair, yes the god magic in form of avatars and the divine fire. I will concede that as being true. That is not at all what the other guy was trying to argue however, with vague and completely unclear implications that the priests were super-forms of classes or whatever lol.

 

Also a fun thing is that the Awakened could tap into those powers. Warden Amala uses the Avatar forms from her dervish skills despite being killed and Awakened. On that same angle, any risen Dervish/priests would be able to tap into those powers as well, if channeled enough Risen energy to be champions/powerful. 

 

Also another aspect is that even if the spellcasters/priests of the gods were preparing to fight, the Army being routed and destroyed in 12 hours would give them zero warning the lines have broken and the Charr were rampaging across Orr. It'd kill any prep time they had.

Oh, agreed.

I think it's been well established that these powers come from the gifts of the gods granted long ago - the gods don't play a direct role in using these abilities. So a human who has turned away from the gods, for whatever reason, still has access to these abilities. Which is also how Arenanet could say that the gods had been silent for centuries (until PoF) even though human racial skills existed.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

On 11/19/2023 at 11:29 PM, Kalavier.1097 said:

You do understand that legendary weapons are often just... unique or have great story? Having a shield with a quaggan baby in it doesn't make you the most powerful warrior around. Sharur's description is just that it's a spectral hammer that was at the source of Orr, and it's corruption is benign and couldn't be fully cleansed. Pharus, another Orrian legendary weapon simply unsummons itself when not used by a hero and returns to the reliquary. Neither weapon are implied to be incredibly powerful or capable of changing wars, they are just highly unique.

Ah yes, the Risen Priestess being controlled by Zhaitan. You know, the Priestess and Priests who all make outright lying statements including "Zhaitan devoured the gods"

Aka, complete nonsense meant purely to demoralize the attacking forces of the pact.

But it means Sharur is a legendary level of good weapon, and Orr got tons of it. Even Ascalon's artifact was from Orr, which could bring Foefire.

Nobody said all Orrians were dead, but the majority of them were dead.

Yeah, trying to deny quotes again. She was using divine power at the same time.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Slowpokeking.8720]

On 11/22/2023 at 12:46 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Strictly speaking, it is. Avatars are god magic (ArenaNet was mostly careful to only give avatars to enemies that were human and/or connected to the gods in some fashion, and in MOX's case, it was explained as not actually being avatars but MOX having some form of multifunctional core and the 'avatars' were actually different modes of operation), and human racial skills are tapping into the power of the gods that lingers in humans. There's also divine fire, although it wouldn't surprise me if that gets retconned to be something more directly related to the Forgotten than the gods. However, human racial skills also demonstrate the broad maximum power level that humans can tap into... and conventional magic has more potential overall.

And we also see clear indications that Risen are able to tap into these powers as well as living humans are, so the claim that the living Orrians were stronger than the Risen due to having access to god magic is patently false. What we see is at or above what those individuals were likely capable of achieving in life, and Zhaitan was likely able to cherrypick the most powerful spellcasters in Orr's history - apart from Reza and a couple of others that were called out as having been there at that time, there is no guarantee that any of the Risen spellcasters we fight were alive at the time of the Cataclysm. Heck, even if they were, they probably weren't part of the army - the reason the army left the city to fight outside seems to be that the Orrians wanted to stop the charr before they were close enough to use the Cauldrons, so those that fought the charr would have died somewhere on the route and might not have been in a place where Zhaitan was able to collect them. 

Can Risen use human's racial skill? No.

Can other Risen, other than the priestess tap into god power? No.

Can Zhaitan itself use 6 gods' power? No.

Only the Risen priests, the one who was able to use it during their life, could use it. The answer is obvious.

The Risen could not tap into god power unless they were able to do it in their life.

And after turning into Risen, their god would not give them power anymore, also the gods had long left, of course they would be weaker than that. Priests' power work like that.

That also made little sense when they need to save Orr but forgot to send their most powerful magic users.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Slowpokeking.8720]

On 11/22/2023 at 5:32 AM, Kalavier.1097 said:

Okay, being fair, yes the god magic in form of avatars and the divine fire. I will concede that as being true. That is not at all what the other guy was trying to argue however, with vague and completely unclear implications that the priests were super-forms of classes or whatever lol.

 

Also a fun thing is that the Awakened could tap into those powers. Warden Amala uses the Avatar forms from her dervish skills despite being killed and Awakened. On that same angle, any risen Dervish/priests would be able to tap into those powers as well, if channeled enough Risen energy to be champions/powerful. 

 

Also another aspect is that even if the spellcasters/priests of the gods were preparing to fight, the Army being routed and destroyed in 12 hours would give them zero warning the lines have broken and the Charr were rampaging across Orr. It'd kill any prep time they had.

Same thing here for the Awakened, only those who were able to use it in their LIFE, could use it after turning into undead. Even Joko himself could not tap god power and use it.

And that is the problem: WHY would the Orrian army, who was anyone's equal, were wiped by the charr in like 12 hours, also without sending their magic users? Are their commanders dumb?

Edited November 30, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Slowpokeking.8720]

Actually both the Risen and the Awakened showed the logic of undead using god magic.

Only those who worship the gods, being able to tap into it could use it after death.

Even Zhaitan and Joko could not use god magic.

Do you see any Awakened teaching others how to use god magic? No.

Most of the Risen didn't have anything to do with god maigc, even though most of them were from Orr, but Krytan humans do. If THIS could not prove that they would lose god magic, I don't know what can.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

On 11/23/2023 at 6:49 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Oh, agreed.

I think it's been well established that these powers come from the gifts of the gods granted long ago - the gods don't play a direct role in using these abilities. So a human who has turned away from the gods, for whatever reason, still has access to these abilities. Which is also how Arenanet could say that the gods had been silent for centuries (until PoF) even though human racial skills existed.

And Risen don't, do we see random Risen being able to use god magic? NO.

[Kalavier.1097]

Headcanon =/= Canon.

 

[Slowpokeking.8720]

5 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Headcanon =/= Canon.

 

Do you see Risen use god magic unless they are priests/spellcasters in their life?

Novels don't show them use god magic at all, unlike humans. I think it's fair to call it fact.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Kalavier.1097]

22 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Do you see Risen use god magic unless they are priests/spellcasters in their life?

Novels don't show them use god magic at all, unlike humans. I think it's fair to call it fact.

Novels don't use the term "god magic" for anything the characters do. God magic is more of avatar stuff, not anything a mesmer or necromancer can do. The term "God magic" isn't even used ingame that much either.

Also, legendaries aren't automatically more powerful then any other weapon. Claw of Khan Ur is just a very historically important dagger, not a super-weapon.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

5 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Novels don't use the term "god magic" for anything the characters do. God magic is more of avatar stuff, not anything a mesmer or necromancer can do. The term "God magic" isn't even used ingame that much either.

Also, legendaries aren't automatically more powerful then any other weapon. Claw of Khan Ur is just a very historically important dagger, not a super-weapon.

Novels made clear about how they attack, same with all other occasions, Risen don't have humans' link to the 6 gods.

Human Mesmer and necromancers' magic also came from the 6 gods.  Other than Grenth' priests, Risen's death magic is quite different than Grenth as well.

We saw what Orrian artifacts can do, even Foefire was its magic.

[Kalavier.1097]

26 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Human Mesmer and necromancers' magic also came from the 6 gods.  Other than Grenth' priests, Risen's death magic is quite different than Grenth as well.

And once again, there you go with headcanon that is not actual lore in any way, shape, or form.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

And once again, there you go with headcanon that is not actual lore in any way, shape, or form.

It is actual lore, Risen's magic, or even Zhaitan itself's magic is quite different than Grenth.

[Kalavier.1097]

3 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

It is actual lore, Risen's magic, or even Zhaitan itself's magic is quite different than Grenth.

And Necromancy is not some thing that can only come from Grenth. Orrian necromancers aren't using "God magic" They are using necromancy. You really need to learn the lore.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

15 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Do you see Risen use god magic unless they are priests/spellcasters in their life?

Novels don't show them use god magic at all, unlike humans. I think it's fair to call it fact.

I don't see any risen using god magic. I don't humans using god magic even if they are priests/spellcasters.

The only thing defined as god magic in core Orr is the effects surrounding the statues of the gods when the temples are active. Something that is actively immune to Zhaitan's corruption, as defined later in Arah explorable and S2, which is why Zhaitan and Risen cannot consume that magic so instead they just utilize it.

[Kalavier.1097]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I don't see any risen using god magic. I don't humans using god magic even if they are priests/spellcasters.

The only thing defined as god magic in core Orr is the effects surrounding the statues of the gods when the temples are active. Something that is actively immune to Zhaitan's corruption, as defined later in Arah explorable and S2, which is why Zhaitan and Risen cannot consume that magic so instead they just utilize it.

Wouldn't that, in a way, imply that Zhaitan can make use of god magic, as they use the network of statues to their advantage when they hold the temples? 😛

[Slowpokeking.8720]

16 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

And Necromancy is not some thing that can only come from Grenth. Orrian necromancers aren't using "God magic" They are using necromancy. You really need to learn the lore.

Actually, even those necromancy magic are quite different than Zhaitan's magic.

We don't see most of the Risen, or even champions of the dragon could use necromancy power, just Zhaitan's magic to corrupt ppl into Risen. No necromancer could make Risen. Even Joko's magic is a lot different than Zhaitan.

Such as Captain Whiting, even after he was turned into a Risen Champion, didn't get the magic do summon shade or minions. Just that his bullets could turn victim into Risen.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Slowpokeking.8720]

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I don't see any risen using god magic. I don't humans using god magic even if they are priests/spellcasters.

The only thing defined as god magic in core Orr is the effects surrounding the statues of the gods when the temples are active. Something that is actively immune to Zhaitan's corruption, as defined later in Arah explorable and S2, which is why Zhaitan and Risen cannot consume that magic so instead they just utilize it.

The Priests do, summon Balthazar's hounds, summon Grenth' minions, change nature form obviously are god magic.

[Tauren.1306]

Correct, they just named the spells after the gods.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

12 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Wouldn't that, in a way, imply that Zhaitan can make use of god magic, as they use the network of statues to their advantage when they hold the temples? 😛

Elder Dragon minions could interact with objects that held magic that the Elder Dragons could not sense / consume / corrupt - we see this many times, for example the risen high priests having bloodstone shards in their forehead Diablo style,

11 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

The Priests do, summon Balthazar's hounds, summon Grenth' minions, change nature form obviously are god magic.

"summon Balthazar's hounds" - you know these aren't the real Temur and Tegan, right? They're just the human elite skill, which isn't god magic - if any human was capable of god magic, Livia wouldn't have created such emphasis on what god magic was in Abaddon's Reliquary.

"summon Grenth's minions" - you mean those super generic Shades that any charr, asura, sylvari, and norn necromancer can summon?

"change nature form" - not sure what "change nature form" you're talking about since the Priestess of Melandru doesn't change forms, but becoming a spectral oakheart is something all the druids did and they were neither exclusively human nor exclusively followers of Melandru. Their magic wasn't god magic, it was nature magic.

[Kalavier.1097]

5 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

"change nature form" - not sure what "change nature form" you're talking about since the Priestess of Melandru doesn't change forms, but becoming a spectral oakheart is something all the druids did and they were neither exclusively human nor exclusively followers of Melandru. Their magic wasn't god magic, it was nature magic.

He earlier referred to the temple event where the Priest of Melandru goes invincible IIRC, and randomly turns players into animals or something.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

49 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

He earlier referred to the temple event where the Priest of Melandru goes invincible IIRC, and randomly turns players into animals or something.

Mesmers can turn people into moas, don't see how that means it's god magic. 

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

Mesmers can turn people into moas, don't see how that means it's god magic. 

He has very weird ideas on what "God-magic" is. Also apparently views things through a power-scaling lens with "Priests means Orr is more powerful then Charr so they should've won!" even though the Charr broke the army so fast it's unlikely any temple or even the king got warning the army was gone lol.