Let's talk about Guardian Pistols, and what's already going to hold them back in PvE: Torch, and Radiant Fire

[Pixel.8012]

Hey all! Like a lot of Guard players I'm really excited about dual pistols, they seem super fun for a variety of builds across each game mode, but there's been a long-standing issue in guardian that will hold them back as a both a fun and interesting weapon choice by attaching them to the hip to something frustrating -- Radiant fire and the monopoly of torch on every condi guardian build.

Torch is a fantastic weapon, and radiant fire is big damage from a single trait. Torch 5 not so much, but the instant cast alone from torch 4 is so powerful that every condi build on guardian wants some mainhand weapon coupled with torch, and maybe another mainhand weapon if you're lucky (right now this is only willbender, but historically firebrand has also brought scepter), not to mention the projectile from torch 4. This might not seem like an issue, plenty of classes have weapons that they want/need on both weapon sets, but guardian runs into a very specific issue with torch/radiant fire and a secondary weapon set that occupies the offhand skills slots -- either with a two-handed weapon, or with a second off-hand in the case of pistols.

Because radiant fire will give you the flipover skill (zealots fire) without you manually pressing torch 4, the instant cast will often get hidden behind an active projectile charge, delaying your casts of the primary skill. On firebrand this mostly an inconvenience -- albeit a frustrating one -- but on willbender (because of restorative virtues), this can be backbreaking. For instance, restorative virtues reduces the cooldown of torch 4 but not of radiant fire, which causes Zealot's Fire to get overlapped by the trait proc's projectile cast with astonishing frequency. This frustration is compounded by the fact that, on builds like condi quickbrand, which brings a ton of ritualist gear, doesn't trigger the crits for radiant fire all too frequently. This makes the performance of the build and the flow of its rotation largely dependant on crit RNG, which feels awful.

This has a secondary -- and more relevant -- issue, though. Because condi guardians have seldom needed to care about more than one-handed weapons, this hasn't been a big issue, but condi willbender builds being interested in greatsword has proven to be another issue that will be further compounded (and for more builds) with the addition of dual pistols -- Radiant Fire's current design is incredibly hostile to anything else sharing the offhand skills with torch. Whether that's willbender running Greatsword Scepter/Torch, or after this patch any build considering running Pistol/Pistol as it's secondary weapon set, players are going to have to contend with being punished by Radiant Fire more and more. Not being able to push Zealot's Flame off cooldown because you have another weapon set is already a loss in DPS, but swapping back and needing to throw the projectile to get access to the skill just feels atrocious.

This problem is fixable though! There's a few solutions
- Radiant fire no longer gives you access to a charge of Zealot's Fire
- Radiant fire no longer gives you access to the charge, but the trait gives you an upgraded version of Zealot's Fire, similar to Lingering Curse on Necromancer
- Rework radiant fire entirely to be a more broadly useful condi damage trait and less tied to torch specifically

Condi guard is super fun, and with the different varieties of that core concept getting increased weapon diversity with dual pistols, it bears mentioning just how much of a burden both radiant fire and torch are for weapon diversity on condition Guardian builds, as well as (arguably more importantly) the general fun of those builds as well. I really hope this affects some sort of positive change because pistols look incredible, but if they get held back because of radiant fire then it's gonna be hard for guardian players to justify engaging with them like they deserve.

[swiftsvre.1605]

So much this. Radiant Fire limits fun in ways that are, well, very much not fun.

It should be changed to be less restrictive/mandatory.

Edited November 27, 2023 by swiftsvre.1605

[zealex.9410]

They nuked all the weapon enhancing traits, just roll the 2 charges baseline and detach the trait from the weapon. There, problem solved.

[Machineuzi.5604]

53 minutes ago, Pixel.8012 said:

Hey all! Like a lot of Guard players I'm really excited about dual pistols, they seem super fun for a variety of builds across each game mode, but there's been a long-standing issue in guardian that will hold them back as a both a fun and interesting weapon choice by attaching them to the hip to something frustrating -- Radiant fire and the monopoly of torch on every condi guardian build.

Torch is a fantastic weapon, and radiant fire is big damage from a single trait. Torch 5 not so much, but the instant cast alone from torch 4 is so powerful that every condi build on guardian wants some mainhand weapon coupled with torch, and maybe another mainhand weapon if you're lucky (right now this is only willbender, but historically firebrand has also brought scepter), not to mention the projectile from torch 4. This might not seem like an issue, plenty of classes have weapons that they want/need on both weapon sets, but guardian runs into a very specific issue with torch/radiant fire and a secondary weapon set that occupies the offhand skills slots -- either with a two-handed weapon, or with a second off-hand in the case of pistols.

Because radiant fire will give you the flipover skill (zealots fire) without you manually pressing torch 4, the instant cast will often get hidden behind an active projectile charge, delaying your casts of the primary skill. On firebrand this mostly an inconvenience -- albeit a frustrating one -- but on willbender (because of restorative virtues), this can be backbreaking. For instance, restorative virtues reduces the cooldown of torch 4 but not of radiant fire, which causes Zealot's Fire to get overlapped by the trait proc's projectile cast with astonishing frequency. This frustration is compounded by the fact that, on builds like condi quickbrand, which brings a ton of ritualist gear, doesn't trigger the crits for radiant fire all too frequently. This makes the performance of the build and the flow of its rotation largely dependant on crit RNG, which feels awful.

This has a secondary -- and more relevant -- issue, though. Because condi guardians have seldom needed to care about more than one-handed weapons, this hasn't been a big issue, but condi willbender builds being interested in greatsword has proven to be another issue that will be further compounded (and for more builds) with the addition of dual pistols -- Radiant Fire's current design is incredibly hostile to anything else sharing the offhand skills with torch. Whether that's willbender running Greatsword Scepter/Torch, or after this patch any build considering running Pistol/Pistol as it's secondary weapon set, players are going to have to contend with being punished by Radiant Fire more and more. Not being able to push Zealot's Flame off cooldown because you have another weapon set is already a loss in DPS, but swapping back and needing to throw the projectile to get access to the skill just feels atrocious.

This problem is fixable though! There's a few solutions
- Radiant fire no longer gives you access to a charge of Zealot's Fire
- Radiant fire no longer gives you access to the charge, but the trait gives you an upgraded version of Zealot's Fire, similar to Lingering Curse on Necromancer
- Rework radiant fire entirely to be a more broadly useful condi damage trait and less tied to torch specifically

Condi guard is super fun, and with the different varieties of that core concept getting increased weapon diversity with dual pistols, it bears mentioning just how much of a burden both radiant fire and torch are for weapon diversity on condition Guardian builds, as well as (arguably more importantly) the general fun of those builds as well. I really hope this affects some sort of positive change because pistols look incredible, but if they get held back because of radiant fire then it's gonna be hard for guardian players to justify engaging with them like they deserve.

such a well thought post, but i am going to have to confused react sorry because 'blue class' or whatever

[Ahlaradra.5837]

Pistols dead on arrival confirmed. 😒

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

so, if i understand your point correctly:

1) offhand pistol is inferior to torch, because of Radiant Fire trait buffing torch so much.

2) the trait ruins torch on many builds, because it essentially removes the primary skill, by forcing use of only the flip-over skill.

3) the trait ruins many builds because you can't use the flip-over skill when torch is not the current offhand weapon, thereby wasting DPS potential.

My personal opinion of the trait is that the devs intended to force us to make a choice with the trait. use the flip-over skill by equipping torch. or choose different weapons for different purposes. The trait was designed in such a way to STILL give (melee range) DPS benefit for other weapons, but MORE benefit for using torch. They have done this concept with other weapon traits, also. Give a benefit for use with all weapons, and MORE benefit for using the specified weapon. (look at the traits the give say 120 stat, +120 MORE of the same stat when equipping the specified weapon.)

as for usability issues, i am FOR changes that would make the trait better for torch-bearers, instead of the trait making torch super clunky.

however, i must say that this is the first time in 11+ years that i remember seeing someone post about how clunky is the traited torch.

[zealex.9410]

9 hours ago, Forgotten Legend.9281 said:

so, if i understand your point correctly:

1) offhand pistol is inferior to torch, because of Radiant Fire trait buffing torch so much.

2) the trait ruins torch on many builds, because it essentially removes the primary skill, by forcing use of only the flip-over skill.

3) the trait ruins many builds because you can't use the flip-over skill when torch is not the current offhand weapon, thereby wasting DPS potential.

My personal opinion of the trait is that the devs intended to force us to make a choice with the trait. use the flip-over skill by equipping torch. or choose different weapons for different purposes. The trait was designed in such a way to STILL give (melee range) DPS benefit for other weapons, but MORE benefit for using torch. They have done this concept with other weapon traits, also. Give a benefit for use with all weapons, and MORE benefit for using the specified weapon. (look at the traits the give say 120 stat, +120 MORE of the same stat when equipping the specified weapon.)

as for usability issues, i am FOR changes that would make the trait better for torch-bearers, instead of the trait making torch super clunky.

however, i must say that this is the first time in 11+ years that i remember seeing someone post about how clunky is the traited torch.

They can still have the trait benefit all condi builds and torch specifically. Just make it so when you crit you proc the zealot's flame effect (the pulsing aoe around you) but without it flipping torch 4, further more make it so picking this trait gives you another charge or zealot's fire.

[cat.8975]

9 hours ago, Forgotten Legend.9281 said:

however, i must say that this is the first time in 11+ years that i remember seeing someone post about how clunky is the traited torch.

We've been complaining about this trait for at least 5+ years at this point in various PvE discords (and other places). It makes condi guard incredibly annoying to play when you're trying to squeeze out every last bit of damage and heavily discourages the use of two-handed weapons or other off-hand swaps.

The main points of frustration are:

1. It's time sensitive. When it procs, you are required to cast the skill within the next few seconds or lose a huge chunk of damage. This sucks if you don't have a torch out due to using another weapon set, tomes, bundles, etc.
2. It's random. It only procs on critical hits, and you will never run 100% crit chance in an optimal condi build.
3. It heavily punishes mistakes. If you fail to cast your base torch 4 before the trait procs, you will end up with the two casts being out of sync, and it's very difficult (or impossible) to sync them back up. Due to the janky casting mechanics in this game, having them out of sync costs you more time and thus more dps.
   • Willbender suffers from this problem but in reverse. It has a trait that reduces weapon skill cooldowns, but not this trait cooldown, so you will never have the two in sync.

I'd love if they could somehow give t4 the Skyscale fireball treatment. A "combined ammo" skill where you could have the base skill work normally (only ever recharging to 1 ammo) and the trait procs adding a bonus throw every now and then (so you could have up to two throws at any given point). Remove the crit reliance while we're at it, too (just have it proc whenever the cooldown is up).

Would also be nice if the skill wasn't a flipover. The flipover effect here is pointless and creates the illusion of choice (it's always best to throw it, as you keep the "passive" pbaoe burn regardless of what you do).

Edited November 28, 2023 by cat.8975

[draxynnic.3719]

2 hours ago, cat.8975 said:

Would also be nice if the skill wasn't a flipover. The flipover effect here is pointless and creates the illusion of choice (it's always best to throw it, as you keep the "passive" pbaoe burn regardless of what you do).

That's probably a bug. Come to think on it, Zealot's Flame is supposed to inflict additional burning on the final pulse, which if it worked would make Zealot's Fire less of an "of course I'll use that" skill, but that's also bugged.

In short, at least some of the problems discussed here would probably be resolved by bugfixing.

[Falseprophet.1502]

Instead of the pulsing/flip over effect, just make it a buff that you get similar to Thief poisons or Ashes of the Just. Whenever you proc Zealot's Fire, you get three stacks of burning that will apply on your next attack. Similar interaction when you proc it through the trait, it just adds an extra three stacks. It would make it feel good when you're not on Torch.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Falseprophet.1502

[cat.8975]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

That's probably a bug. Come to think on it, Zealot's Flame is supposed to inflict additional burning on the final pulse, which if it worked would make Zealot's Fire less of an "of course I'll use that" skill, but that's also bugged.

In short, at least some of the problems discussed here would probably be resolved by bugfixing.

If they "fixed" it, it would make the skill even more frustrating to use. The optimal play would be to press the button, wait as long as possible, and then throw it just before it expires. Awful awful awful terrible gameplay.

[draxynnic.3719]

16 hours ago, cat.8975 said:

If they "fixed" it, it would make the skill even more frustrating to use. The optimal play would be to press the button, wait as long as possible, and then throw it just before it expires. Awful awful awful terrible gameplay.

I think that's where the extra burning on the final pulse comes in. If it did three stacks on the final pulse, you might not want to throw it at all if you were in melee. Zealot's Fire has a significant power coefficient on it, but on a condi build, taking the time to do that might not be a priority.

Get that working, and the final step could be to make a minor rework and have Zealot's Fire carry away however many stacks of burning Zealot's Flame had left. That might just switch to creating pressure to throw it ASAP, though.