What if I told you there is an actual "I Win" combo in this game that makes it pointless for the target to have a keyboard? 🧪🐤💀

[Chaba.5410]

44 minutes ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Except, you do seem to be making the same point that Medieval and Dawdler were: that the CC + Moa combo is no different from any other chain-CC situation

What do you mean by seem?  I said what my point was explicitly and I shouldn't have to type it again.  You wrote "any perma-CC" and brought up past forum-dweller suggestions for some sort of diminishing returns on CC which allowed me to illustrate my point.  If there were such a system, then you wouldn't have been locked out of the Moa skill bar and could have evaded the next attack.  So the subject of perma-CC is not really a separate topic.
 

44 minutes ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Let's not strawman this.

It's not a hypothetical situation so nope, not a strawman.  It's one of the builds I play in WvW for a guild and considering that metabattle also has a similar build as zerging meta, you can't call it hypothetical.  It literally has no stunbreak.  You can try that build out too!
 

44 minutes ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

This discussion is specifically about Moa in combination with CC, which unlike any other burst combo or CC-chain, completely and totally locks out the skill bar, regardless of any normally-available stun breaks

I get that you're trying to differentiate between different perma-CC combos because this happened to you, but it still comes off looking like a big reach (and btw, I haven't been really reading through what the others have been saying in detail).  There's no purpose to differentiate between perma-CC combos.  Like, you provided your own answer to "solve" the specific Moa+CC combination and that answer involved making one of those hypothetical forum-suggested changes to the CC part.  Another solution would be to add a stunbreak to the Moa skillbar, but then we'd still be left with all those other perma-CC combos.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

19 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

What do you mean by seem?  I said what my point was explicitly and I shouldn't have to type it again.  You wrote "any perma-CC" and brought up past forum-dweller suggestions for some sort of diminishing returns on CC which allowed me to illustrate my point.  If there were such a system, then you wouldn't have been locked out of the Moa skill bar and could have evaded the next attack.  So the subject of perma-CC is not really a separate topic.
 

It's not a hypothetical situation so nope, not a strawman.  It's one of the builds I play in WvW for a guild and considering that metabattle also has a similar build as zerging meta, you can't call it hypothetical.  It literally has no stunbreak.  You can try that build out too!
 

I get that you're trying to differentiate between different perma-CC combos because this happened to you, but it still comes off looking like a big reach (and btw, I haven't been really reading through what the others have been saying in detail).  There's no purpose to differentiate between perma-CC combos.  Like, you provided your own answer to "solve" the specific Moa+CC combination and that answer involved making one of those hypothetical forum-suggested changes to the CC part.  Another solution would be to add a stunbreak to the Moa skillbar, but then we'd still be left with all those other perma-CC combos.

I guess the difference is, I'm actually tolerant of CC-spam builds like the ones others were describing because: (1) what those builds invest in CC-spam they sacrifice in other areas like damage or sustain, and (2) (broken-record time) they don't effectively disconnect your keyboard and render it pointless to slot stun breaks.  Knockdown warrior, daze mesmer, immob-druid, and CC-spam eles might be annoying and unfun to play against but they aren't about to make it pointless to have a keyboard.  I'd happily have dealt with any of those in the situation in the clips versus the CC + Moa combo.  The difference is, I would actually have been able to do something. I would actually get to play!

The strawman argument I was referring to is when you were discussing Moa in isolation, which is not at all what this topic is about.  Again, it's Moa in combination with CC that is a recipe for that no-no (in my book) of game design: totally taking away a player's ability to do anything, when they haven't assumed the risk by for example running no stun breaks.  On that note, this no-stunbreak Spellbreaker zerg build you brought up frankly isn't relevant.  Obviously, it gets by without slotting stun breaks because it occupies a unique zerg role and relies on supports for stability and stun breaks.  We're not talking about a situation where a zergling with no stun-breaks walks straight into a CC-spamming roamer.  There's really no discussion to be had there.

If your experience is primarily in the boon ball scene and not in truly solo (no partner at all) roaming, you may not have the best insight on this issue.

[Dawdler.8521]

6 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

This discussion is specifically about Moa in combination with CC, which unlike any other burst combo or CC-chain, completely and totally locks out the skill bar, regardless of any normally-available stun breaks.  "Keyboard might as well be disconnected for 3+ seconds" and "literally can't press any buttons" are not hyperbolic descriptions.  This is exactly what Moa + CC does.  I don't know how else to put it. 

And unlike any other CC,  moa does not lock you in place or make you unable to dodge (immo, knockdown) nor does it make you unable to use all skills (daze) nor does it make you unable to attack (blind). 

In fact it gives you a fairly long evade skill which can be more than what some builds have on their skill bar.

None of that is hyperbolic. You are straight up incorrect that no other CC locks you out of the skill bar, since that’s what daze does.

Moa has one good use as a CC over all other CCs and that's cancel transforms and shroud.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Dawdler.8521

[Chaba.5410]

5 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Obviously, it gets by without slotting stun breaks because it occupies a unique zerg role and relies on supports for stability and stun breaks.  We're not talking about a situation where a zergling with no stun-breaks walks straight into a CC-spamming roamer.  There's really no discussion to be had there.

The punchline is I've been Moa'd too in the middle of the zerg. What makes you think that a skilled engi isn't going to be pulling the same combo while skirting the edge of a zerg? The only difference I see is that I can call out for help from the zerg. The power of friends...

[Chaba.5410]

5 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

If your experience is primarily in the boon ball scene and not in truly solo (no partner at all) roaming, you may not have the best insight on this issue.

It's not my primary mode of play, yet I've played it before. Combat mechanics don't change though. Moa+CC functions the same whether you solo or in a zerg.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

16 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

22 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

This discussion is specifically about Moa in combination with CC, which unlike any other burst combo or CC-chain, completely and totally locks out the skill bar, regardless of any normally-available stun breaks.  "Keyboard might as well be disconnected for 3+ seconds" and "literally can't press any buttons" are not hyperbolic descriptions.  This is exactly what Moa + CC does.  I don't know how else to put it. 

And unlike any other CC,  moa does not lock you in place or make you unable to dodge (immo, knockdown) nor does it make you unable to use all skills (daze) nor does it make you unable to attack (blind). 

In fact it gives you a fairly long evade skill which can be more than what some builds have on their skill bar.

None of that is hyperbolic. You are straight up incorrect that no other CC locks you out of the skill bar, since that’s what daze does.

Moa has one good use as a CC over all other CCs and that's cancel transforms and shroud.

Please read the bold-underlined part where you quoted me, compare it to your response, and consider whether we're talking about the same thing. 😑

For the bazillionth time, this is about being Moa'd and CC'd simultaneously.  Not Moa or CC in isolation.

Some of you are trying so hard to disagree with me you can't even keep track of the issue.  Or are putting words in my mouth.  Or are talking about things that are totally irrelevant like what class I was on, or how things play out differently if you're in a zerg or playing something with no stun breaks.  It's some next level strawmanning.

[Chaba.5410]

1 hour ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

It's some next level strawmanning.

Again, those aren't strawman arguments.  I thought you said you were serious about debate.

Moa+CC doesn't change whether you are on thief or warrior.  Moa+CCs doesn't change whether your skillbar is from Moa or your personal build.  Moa+CC doesn't change whether you have slotted a stunbreak or not.  Moa+CC doesn't change whether you are playing as a solo roamer or a zergling.

How do you "fix" Moa+CC?  You suggested one of the diminishing returns on CC changes that others have brought up here before.  It wasn't I nor Dawdler nor anyone else who brought up that suggestion.  I won't claim it, simply point it out.

Edited January 1 by Chaba.5410

[Dawdler.8521]

7 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

For the bazillionth time, this is about being Moa'd and CC'd simultaneously.  Not Moa or CC in isolation.

You know that doesn’t even matter right?

Immo + daze is the same effect.

Knockdown + daze is the same effect. 

You keep saying oh it’s the worst. It’s literally the same because daze is the key CC not moa.

[godfat.2604]

As far as I can tell, the OP's argument is based on having a lot of stun breaks, CC chain is not really an issue because they can break stun multiple times. However being moa'ed will remove their stun breaks thus becoming an issue.

I do see this difference however I don't think it's a big difference, comparing to like a long CC chain with 3+ CCs. This game has so many CCs that I see they're similar enough... and it's really not hard to chain many CCs either.

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

Man that video is so satisfying to watch. You play a spec that is not fun to face and exists just to screw with people for cheap and now you are ranting on the forums because of a meme.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a9/84/7a/a9847a0580d6208d9037b47c03d2db7e.gif

[Chaba.5410]

1 hour ago, godfat.2604 said:

I do see this difference however I don't think it's a big difference, comparing to like a long CC chain with 3+ CCs.

It's a meaningless difference. It can be "fixed" by adding a stunbreak to Moa skills. Then get cc'd again and then what?

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

20 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Again, those aren't strawman arguments.  I thought you said you were serious about debate.

They are the definition of strawman arguments because I didn't argue any of the following:

20 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Moa+CC doesn't change whether you are on thief or warrior.

You brought up warrior, not me.  I've been saying repeatedly (whether to you or others), that class is irrelevant to this discussion because the CC + Moa would have disabled any class just the same.  Yet a lot of people are hung up on me being on my thief that day.

20 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Moa+CCs doesn't change whether your skillbar is from Moa or your personal build.

Again, never said anything about this.  Only said that you literally can't do anything due to the combined effect of the CC + Moa (CC takes away your skill bar and Moa takes away stun breaks, which would normally be available when CC'd).

20 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Moa+CC doesn't change whether you have slotted a stunbreak or not.

Never said it does.  Only said it takes away any stunbreaks you may normally have, which I happen to think is unhealthy.

20 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Moa+CC doesn't change whether you are playing as a solo roamer or a zergling.

You brought up the zergling scenario and stated it is different because "power of friendship."  I never said this combo is an issue in zerg scenarios.

20 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

How do you "fix" Moa+CC?  You suggested one of the diminishing returns on CC changes that others have brought up here before.  It wasn't I nor Dawdler nor anyone else who brought up that suggestion.  I won't claim it, simply point it out.

And I never said you or Dawdler suggested that solution.  I said others have.  I specifically mentioned Grimm for suggesting a stun break be added to Moa skills.

--

I'm sorry, but you are in fact doing a whole lot of strawmanning.  Or at the least, not following what I'm saying before responding.

This isn't to condescend, but to ensure you know what is meant by strawmanning:

Quote

A strawman argument is a fallacious argument that distorts an opposing stance in order to make it easier to attack. The person using the strawman pretends to attack their opponent’s stance, while in reality they are actually attacking a distorted version of that stance, which their opponent doesn’t necessarily support. It is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

13 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

You know that doesn’t even matter right?

Immo + daze is the same effect.

Knockdown + daze is the same effect. 

You keep saying oh it’s the worst. It’s literally the same because daze is the key CC not moa.

Are you seriously saying Immo + Daze and Knockdown + Daze cannot be stun-broken/cleansed?

I'm well aware that the CC in the CC + Moa combo is what locks out the skill bar, just as any other CC does.  And that it is Moa that removes any stun breaks you might normally have.  In combination, CC + Moa is oppressive and unhealthy.  You can disagree, but it is not at all the same as ordinary CC-chains, which can be stun-broken and reacted to.  That's simply a fact.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

13 hours ago, godfat.2604 said:

As far as I can tell, the OP's argument is based on having a lot of stun breaks, CC chain is not really an issue because they can break stun multiple times. However being moa'ed will remove their stun breaks thus becoming an issue.

This person gets it.  But it's not just about having lots of stun breaks.  I said earlier that stun breaks aren't the only tool against CC-spam. After stun-breaking, it's up to you what you do next, be it play defensively, offensively, or run.

Any other time I get CC'd by surprise, I can break stun into dodge or evade or invuln or block or blind or reflect, or CC the enemy back, or port out of range, etc.  None of that is possible with the CC + Moa combo.  It really is the closest thing to an "I Win" button when it lands.

13 hours ago, godfat.2604 said:

I do see this difference however I don't think it's a big difference, comparing to like a long CC chain with 3+ CCs. This game has so many CCs that I see they're similar enough... and it's really not hard to chain many CCs either.

I don't have issues with any of the CC-spam builds because once I break stun, I make the most of it by playing defensively or running.  Or if no other choice, fighting back.

The difference between ordinary CC-chaining versus CC + Moa is so obvious to me, I can't believe it's being debated for so many pages.

[Dawdler.8521]

55 minutes ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Are you seriously saying Immo + Daze and Knockdown + Daze cannot be stun-broken/cleansed?

Not unless you have many, many stunbreaks. Moa can be used once and that's it. It's a 100% gamble given so much evades, reflects, projectile blocks that exist. Daze, knockdown, immobilize is spammable from multiple sources and can lock you down forever.

But hey if a single roamer can explain why he doesnt run an uber core engineer spec with an I win button in every fight and instead use those pathetically weak things like soulbeast, willbender, harbinger or daredevil specs then I'm all ears.

Given the amount of core engineers running around WvW in comparison to... literally every other spec in existance... there must be a logical reason nobody wants to insta-win all their fights?

Come to think of it twilight, do you run core engineer?

[Leger.3724]

9 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Not unless you have many, many stunbreaks. Moa can be used once and that's it. It's a 100% gamble given so much evades, reflects, projectile blocks that exist. Daze, knockdown, immobilize is spammable from multiple sources and can lock you down forever.

But hey if a single roamer can explain why he doesnt run an uber core engineer spec with an I win button in every fight and instead use those pathetically weak things like soulbeast, willbender, harbinger or daredevil specs then I'm all ears.

Given the amount of core engineers running around WvW in comparison to... literally every other spec in existance... there must be a logical reason nobody wants to insta-win all their fights?

Come to think of it twilight, do you run core engineer?

You're trying to explain risk/reward to people who play a class that 99% of the time has no concept of risk and reward because they run away at the first sign they might have to risk anything.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

12 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Not unless you have many, many stunbreaks. Moa can be used once and that's it. It's a 100% gamble given so much evades, reflects, projectile blocks that exist. Daze, knockdown, immobilize is spammable from multiple sources and can lock you down forever.

Again, stun breaks aren't the only answer to CC-spammers.  All you need is one stun break to get a chance to do something again, even if that's running away and not giving the annoying CC build any fun.

15 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

But hey if a single roamer can explain why he doesnt run an uber core engineer spec with an I win button in every fight and instead use those pathetically weak things like soulbeast, willbender, harbinger or daredevil specs then I'm all ears.

Given the amount of core engineers running around WvW in comparison to... literally every other spec in existance... there must be a logical reason nobody wants to insta-win all their fights?

Come to think of it twilight, do you run core engineer?

Never said core engi is a top roamer.  Did say it's a meme build with the closest thing to an "I win" button in this game.  Which uncommon or tricky to execute or not, still produces an unhealthy effect: totally depriving a player of being able to do anything if they fail to react by surprise in half a second.  Maybe it needs to happen to you a few times before you decide it's pretty dumb.

2 minutes ago, Leger.3724 said:

You're trying to explain risk/reward to people who play a class that 99% of the time has no concept of risk and reward because they run away at the first sign they might have to risk anything.

You must be talking about Willbenders and Harbingers, IMO the two most out-of-whack risk/reward propositions in WvW.  Anyway, even when I'm not on thief, I tend to play glass or near glass, which I'm getting criticized for as well.  "If you play glass, you can't expect to always be the cannon," someone said.  Glass cannon is kind of the epitome of risk-reward tradeoff.  I'm not running around with perma-every boon while still hitting hard, or skulking around with pocket zergs or gank buddies and calling it solo roaming.  Spare me the risk-reward lecture please.

[Dawdler.8521]

10 minutes ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Never said core engi is a top roamer.  Did say it's a meme build with the closest thing to an "I win" button in this game.  Which uncommon or tricky to execute or not, still produces an unhealthy effect: totally depriving a player of being able to do anything if they fail to react by surprise in half a second.  Maybe it needs to happen to you a few times before you decide it's pretty dumb.

Ssssshhh nobody say anything about scrappers tossing nades over their heads while running away. May take away from the ardent glory that is the moa meme core engineer.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

58 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Ssssshhh nobody say anything about scrappers tossing nades over their heads while running away. May take away from the ardent glory that is the moa meme core engineer.

They're annoying too but at least they don't disconnect your keyboard for not having 0.5-second reaction time.  This thread wouldn't exist if the engi in the clip was running nade scrapper instead.

[MercurialKuroSludge.8974]

6 minutes ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

They're annoying too but at least they don't disconnect your keyboard for not having 0.5-second reaction time.  This thread wouldn't exist if the engi in the clip was running nade scrapper instead.

No, this thread wouldn't.
But Im 99% sure somebody or even you will start a thread titled "Nerf Nade Scrapper" or something along those lines, if there were enuf Scrapper videos.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

12 minutes ago, MercurialKuroSludge.8974 said:

No, this thread wouldn't.
But Im 99% sure somebody or even you will start a thread titled "Nerf Nade Scrapper" or something along those lines, if there were enuf Scrapper videos.

I don't base my balance and design opinions on videos but my own experience in game.  So no, you won't see me making a thread on nade scrappers unless Anet buffs them stupidly.  Reflect is pretty rough on them.

Edit: As a general design-philosophy, I'm not a fan of things that minimize player-interaction. "1-shot combos" or anything that kills reasonably built, reasonably skilled, players very quickly, approach this, but if there is an element of skill in their execution, and adequate potential counterplay, I think they have a place in competitive gaming.  The problem with CC + Moa is that even though it may be tricky to execute (which is debatable), there is virtually no counterplay when it lands, as shown in the clips.

Perhaps more people will need to experience it before they get where I'm coming from.

Edited January 2 by Twilight Tempest.7584
Added general design philosophy discussion.

[godfat.2604]

7 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

But it's not just about having lots of stun breaks.  I said earlier that stun breaks aren't the only tool against CC-spam. After stun-breaking, it's up to you what you do next, be it play defensively, offensively, or run.

Any other time I get CC'd by surprise, I can break stun into dodge or evade or invuln or block or blind or reflect, or CC the enemy back, or port out of range, etc.  None of that is possible with the CC + Moa combo.  It really is the closest thing to an "I Win" button when it lands.

Let's say I agree with this for now, I think a very important aspect is what your build does bring. I think for the most builds unless built to handle this in a very defensive or mobile or stealth way, there are too many more win buttons (as you called) which are almost the same. I am guessing your build has way more those escaping tools than most builds so you see a bigger difference.

To me, there are just too many other ways to kill me, and this one isn't more deadlier than the others yet harder to pull, so it doesn't make sense to kill me this way.

[Chaba.5410]

20 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

You brought up warrior, not me.  .... class is irrelevant to this discussion because the CC + Moa would have disabled any class just the same.

Yes, I brought up a different class because you say class is irrelevant for Moa+CC since it disables any class just the same.  That's not a strawman.  That's called agreeing with you.
 

20 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

you literally can't do anything due to the combined effect of the CC + Moa (CC takes away your skill bar and Moa takes away stun breaks, which would normally be available when CC'd).

Right, which is another way of saying that the effect of Moa+CCs doesn't change whether your skillbar is from Moa or any personal build that doesn't have a stunbreak slotted.  Again, we agree.  You literally can't do anything if you don't have a stunbreak available.  I am not misrepresenting your stance about Moa+CC in any way here.  I could have been more explicit and written "effect of" earlier to be more clear.  I failed to see how writing "Moa+CC" could be misinterpreted as anything other than the combined application of those skills.
 

20 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

it takes away any stunbreaks you may normally have, which I happen to think is unhealthy.

Hence the effect of Moa+CC doesn't change whether you personally have slotted a stunbreak or not.  Reiteration of what you yourself wrote is not a strawman.

 

20 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

You brought up the zergling scenario and stated it is different because "power of friendship."  I never said this combo is an issue in zerg scenarios.

No, I stated that the outcome is different in that scenario due to having other players around while you took my quote about the mechanics of Moa+CC not changing whether zerg or roamer.  We're talking about combat mechanics here like CC and stunbreaks, are we not?   Now who is doing the strawman here and misrepresenting stances so they can be easily knocked down?

Also that's kind of odd that you wouldn't want to recognize other scenarios.  It would strengthen your argument about how OP this Moa+CC combo is above other forms of perma-CC chains.  You claimed to not be writing hyperbole but it looks like hyperbole if it's not really an "I win" button because it depends upon context.  Why don't you just change the thread title to "Actual I win combo but only if certain conditions are met"?

 

20 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

And I never said you or Dawdler suggested that solution.  I said others have.

Several times I said you said others made that suggestion and just wanted to be clear yet again that it was you and you alone who brought that up, not Dawdler nor I.  Why would something you brought up yourself be a strawman?  If you're receptive to Grimm's suggestion about adding a stunbreak to Moa, I thought you'd also be receptive to the thing you brought up.  My mistake?
 

19 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

On 12/31/2023 at 11:53 PM, godfat.2604 said:

As far as I can tell, the OP's argument is based on having a lot of stun breaks, CC chain is not really an issue because they can break stun multiple times. However being moa'ed will remove their stun breaks thus becoming an issue.

This person gets it.  But it's not just about having lots of stun breaks.  I said earlier that stun breaks aren't the only tool against CC-spam. After stun-breaking, it's up to you what you do next, be it play defensively, offensively, or run.

That person gets it, that CC chain is not an issue for people who have lots of stunbreaks.  Grass is also green.  How many stunbreaks should everyone run, do you suppose?  What poor saps don't have a stunbreak in their build?!   How many stunbreaks should be added to Moa form?  If you had one stunbreak on Moa and then get hit with another stun, you gonna be posting here again about how Moa+CC is so far and above worse than running many stunbreaks to deal with CC chains?  Should then add some blinds or aegis to Moa skills too?  Extra dodge maybe?  Load Moa up with some invulns and reflects too while we're at it.

 

 

Edited January 2 by Chaba.5410

[Chaba.5410]

12 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

The person using the strawman pretends to attack their opponent’s stance, while in reality they are actually attacking a distorted version of that stance, which their opponent doesn’t necessarily support

Why won't you think of the children?

[Firefly.5982]

Should something like this exist in the game? Probably not.

Is it actually a problem? No.

You said yourself, you've played thousands of hours and never encountered it before. It's clearly not a viable build besides the occasional memeing so barely anyone runs it and even those who do CAN be countered once you know what awaits you. It's a super niche build for super niche encounters and it brings someone an occasional kitten and giggle -shrug-

I agree that it's annoying and a tad unfair and shouldn't exist but it won't be addressed by anet anyways, it's not really an issue because it's so rare, you can kill the dude in other scenarios, so just move on...?