The balance is...

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Kuma.1503 said:

I believe we've reached a point in this conversation where both sides understand the points the other is making. Now we come down to a difference of opinion. 

The most important question to answer now is:

"Is bladeswsorn OP"

YES. 

...  Okay now the ACTUAL question.

"If complex classes offer no advantage to the average player. Why bother engaging with them at all"?

 

This is not an unreasonable question to ask. Obviously, if you're putting extra work in, you expect to get something extra out of it. That would only be fair yes?

On the surface, yes. Typically as metas develop, it's the complex characters that will sloooowly eek their way towards the top, and the simpler characters that will fall off. This is because there is an inherent advantage to having more tools at your disposal once you have mastered them. 

But there's a caviat. This process is slow, and you mostly see it in games that have ceased to receive updates. This is because in order for optimization to take place, the meta needs time to settle and then develop. Gw2 devs have a lovely habit of taking a sledgehammer to anything and everything that moves, reworking builds, specs, and even entire classes into something unrecognizable. This makes it very difficult for players to optimize, and only the best at adapting are going to be able to truly reap the rewards of playing something complex. 

Ele, Rev, and Holosmith have all had a very solid history in PvP, being at the top or near the top of the meta more often than not. But the barrier to entry prevents most players from capitalizing off of their strengths. 

This means that, yes, if the average joe on one of these complex classes runs into the average joe on a simpler class, you can bet that most of the time, the simpler class will win. 

And honestly... that's fine. Because the issue here is ultimately that players just aren't using the tools available to them properly. The people playing the complex class are making more mistakes and are getting punished for those mistakes more often. The natural result of that is that they preform worse once until they've crossed that skill hump. 

 

The real benefit of playing something complex is ultimately enjoyment. I know. Enjoyment? FUN? In MY WHOLESOME CHRISTIAN GAME? 

I'm an engi/ele main, not because I'm looking for an advantage, but because simple classes bore me. I need something extra to sink my teeth into. I need obscure mechanics and interactions to master. I NEED to be playing at 200 APM just to keep my ADHD brain happy or my last two functional brain cells will start crashing into each other in protest. 

If all you care about is results. It's time to be realistic, an easier spec is the way to go. But if you don't mind taking the more difficult road. The reward is still there for you in the end. You'll most likely have a very solid spec under your belt that has withstood the test of time (Literally when has Holo/Herald not been at the very least GOOD in the meta?)

I don't need my class to cover for my mistakes to compensate for the increased difficulty curve.

I feel no need to punish others because I intentionally chose the more difficult road for myself. I'm in it for the enjoyment of mastering something challenging. 

It's up to you to decide what's more important. 

 

 

 

There is nothing enjoyable about fighting simple specs that are often face tank friendly. It means you can play flawlessly on an active mitigation spec, but lose/leave the fight on attrition of your actives and dodges. Warriors being rewarded with 0 0 0 for eating a stun, scourges spewing out AOE+shield, gaurds spewing out blocks, and so on.. it all amounts to such specs getting away with bad play, especially in group fights were the brainded mitigation/aoe overlaps.

 

In every single game Ive played tonight both teams had a DH, in every match a DH topped damage, for doing nothing other than stand on mid and spam blocks-traps. The DH is just scourge.. brainded area denial which is ramped up to toxic levels if they have the brainded core support at their side. What is fun about being forced to play sides by specs that are under half as difficult, or to face them, and put in 3x the effort/risk to counter such cake mode combos?

 

Skill floors need raised on such specs. It is simply better for everybody to punish lack of skill, rather than to reward simplicity at the direct result of punishing complexity. If you lack skill, you can get better.. if the game punished for complexity.. whats the solotion, get worse?

Edited December 22, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Kuma.1503]

Idk what to tell ya man. Maybe take a break.  

I had to take a several month long hiatus from the game because I got annoyed by Engineer's changes. Came back recently, and I don't play as much as I used to, but I'm having fun again with a fresh mindset. Maybe that would benefit you too. 

--Or don't. I'm not your mom. 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Shagie.7612]

I get it, it sucks to lose to some condi zerk when he facetanks all your damage and dodges poorly and whatever else.

But lol all these ele players got the same exact unearned wins 6 months ago
It's just not their turn rn

[Sahne.6950]

@Flowki.7194

Alright, so you did read. But your opinion differs,... that is okey and something i can work with.  Then i was rude and i want to apologize for that. ^^

You know what? lets go down that rabithole!  I am honestly giving it a shot, because you seem to be dedicated.

 

Can you elaborate on your plans to "raise the skillfloor"?

Because i dont understand how they are gonna accomplish that....  Without completly reworking gw2 from the ground up

Realistically speaking, it needs to happen on a "class-by-class-level".  We need to come up with good suggestions on what skills and trait interactions can and need to be changed to accomplish your vision.  

My initial problem with your "raising the skillfloor" suggestion was, that i am CONVINCED that its crazy hard to redesign things to be "harder to play", without either making skills clunky on purpose/ completly butchering core sustain mechanics which would cause insane collateral damage to otherwise okayish builds/ or straight up lowering overall performance by adjusting numbers.

How are you gonna accomplish that?   If you have good suggestions, maybe we can bake something here.

Start with BSW or CZerker or whatever you want...  theres alot of candidates.

• This
• That
• This
• and also this.

That type of condensed feedback/suggestions is whats needed for us to truely understand your vision... and actually have a starting point for a discussion.

Because right now i have exactly 0 ideas that dont turn out to be a nerf in disguise, and not something to actually make the class more mechanically challenging to play. 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Sahne.6950]

Double post.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Flowki.7194]

21 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Idk what to tell ya man. Maybe take a break.  

I had to take a several month long hiatus from the game because I got annoyed by Engineer's changes. Came back recently, and I don't play as much as I used to, but I'm having fun again with a fresh mindset. Maybe that would benefit you too. 

--Or don't. I'm not your mom. 

Obviously youre not my mom, becuase I'm your dad 😜 Sorry son mate, you walked right into it. Yeah the game is frustrating for me at the minute, the easier dps specs are boring, yet the more complex specs do not feel worth the effort. I'd be happy playing support, but thats also a bad experiance with the wide MMR, you end up as a spectator to the slaughter of your outskilled dps every other game.

 

14 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

@Flowki.7194

Alright, so you did read. But your opinion differs,... that is okey and something i can work with.  Then i was rude and i want to apologize for that. ^^

You know what? lets go down that rabithole!  I am honestly giving it a shot, because you seem to be dedicated.

 

Can you elaborate on your plans to "raise the skillfloor"?

Because i dont understand how they are gonna accomplish that....  Without completly reworking gw2 from the ground up

Realistically speaking, it needs to happen on a "class-by-class-level".  We need to come up with good suggestions on what skills and trait interactions can and need to be changed to accomplish your vision.  

My initial problem with your "raising the skillfloor" suggestion was, that i am CONVINCED that its crazy hard to redesign things to be "harder to play", without either making skills clunky on purpose/ completly butchering core sustain mechanics which would cause insane collateral damage to otherwise okayish builds/ or straight up lowering overall performance by adjusting numbers.

How are you gonna accomplish that?   If you have good suggestions, maybe we can bake something here.

Start with BSW or CZerker or whatever you want...  theres alot of candidates.

• This
• That
• This
• and also this.

That type of condensed feedback/suggestions is whats needed for us to truely understand your vision... and actually have a starting point for a discussion.

Because right now i have exactly 0 ideas that dont turn out to be a nerf in disguise, and not something to actually make the class more mechanically challenging to play. 

Anybody that can apologise gets my time, every time (although for the record I was not offended, no need to apologise).

 

There would be a lot to talk about but I will break it down to simple concepts.

 

1. Passive mitigations should be dramatically reduced, and classes should have active mitigation buffed to compensate. This means more reliance on concious mitigaation, especially dodges, which should be a universal skill that is rewarded/punished across specs, as equally as possible. Anything less, means things like the dodge system are completely descriminatory to specs that do not have have low skill floor block/shield spam, or passive mitigation (Blade; core gaurd; scourge etc).

 

2. No set duration immune (like warrior stunbreak) should allow the player to also attack. Arcane shield is a perfect example of how to balance durational blocks.. becuase the shield count has to be actively monitored (you play ele you know this). If it is full durational immunity/block, it  = no attacking (that includes garudian blocks). At that point, I would remove unblockables from the game, it is a broken, opressive mechanic for certain specs that rely on only 1 or 2 blocks. Gaurdian blocks go under the radar for how casual they are, but when balanced in the right way, they would be fine (get to that soon).

 

3. AOE damage should be reduced, single target attacks should hit harder as a strict rule. AOE CC should not exist, single target only. Being CC'd by some guy that isnt even looking at you in a group fight, infact you are begind him (lets be honest, 99/100 times is a necro), is fking kitten. Like.. absolutely kitten.

 

4. There is too much stealth spam, and not enough universal counter. Thief abuses this most of all, I personally think more universal counters to stealth are needed, and thieves are given more active sustain that doesnt revolve around mobility/stealth. Thief is too low risk, im never impressed by a good thief, but I want to be.. becuase the toxic stealth/mobility aside, its a relitively high skill floor spec. I have no problem with stealth, or with many specs having it.. but it needs a real universal (but skill based) counter. How that looks, I don't know. Feel free to suggest.

 

5. Many classes do too much damage/mitigation across too few buttons. Warrior and gaurdian for example could use another utility bar of some sort. Then, they can have mechanics seperated and spread across more abilitys, so that 5+ rewards are not given just for pressing 1 button. Currently, classes like warrior/gaurdian, and specs like SB, have way too much on hand access to high damage/mitigation, where classes like rev, ele, engi(some builds) have to shift around more to unlock the classes potential. Even necro specs and specter has to jump into more "stances" in theory, but that could be made alot more skill indexed. For example on specter.. just spamming 3 is rediculously effective. Classes should have utility/damage/mitigation spread out to be of similar nature to ele/rev, anybody who has played those knows what Im getting at. The dependency on multiple stances increases the skill floor, in a good way, as it also unlocks interesting game play (cough... condi zerker).

 

6. AOE support. I never liked tempest aoe auras, aoe healing, aoe blocks from gaurd etc. I would make all such support utility single target, but reduce CDs and increase durations where appropriate. For example, core gaurd can apply a single target block to a team mate who is about to, or is getting nuked. The gaurd has 5 "ammo" on that block, and could spam it on one target if being hard nuked, or spreads them around team if mixed damage. Tempest applies a single target mag aura to a team mate being nuked by LB/deadeye etc, maybe it shares a linked CD with other auras, but the CD is very low. You see what Im getting at? concious choices on what type of support a team mate needs, rather than just pressing a button, which spams your entire team with AOE mitigation.

 

There are many changes like the above to increase skill floors, to easily elaborate on, im off to play a game now though. Anet really need to adress core mechanics, and there are some very easy starting points.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Sahne.6950]

you know what.   i agree.      Not everything is perfect.   but you got the spirit.

 

The thing is,  to really get something going, you need to structure bulletpoints on how to change problematic skills or traits. 

 

[Shagie.7612]

i think it's actually a relatively easy fix to reduce the amount of effective HP some specs have honestly

like, it's not unrealistic that anet could change up the numbers on things that get away with eating a lot of hits to the face instead of being smart
reduced durations, smaller heals, longer CDs, that sorta stuff

it won't fix everything, but it'd be at least good enough for a mode that doesn't see a lot of large changes anymore

im gonna lose it the next time i lose to some condi zerk who eats everything and lands like one out of every 50 hits but can't die so long as they have a pulse
or a tempest who pressed create character and is thus immune to any projectile ever
or a condi reaper that's no longer nearly as weak to power burst as it used to be

oh also can we finally fix the jalis elite not letting you act after you cancel it, so i have an actual stunbreak i can use against ring effects

like for example, i just landed a huge amount of skills on a necro: spirit crush, full sevenshot, with impossible odds up, 100% crit, and it did... less than 7500, like a third of his HP
if i got caught in that kind of situation i'm dead twice over, lol

Edited December 23, 2023 by Shagie.7612

[Aaron.1294]

@Flowki.7194

1.Many passive skills were nerfed to hell, there's not a single one spec that is carried by passives anymore (if you're not talking about instant cast skills ofc)

2. Most things are working like that so I don't get this point. Maybe some learning before spreading false rumors about diff classes could help...

3. Wouldn't say it's the best solution - some single target skills are very fast, hard to dodge and have good range/most melee attacks are also AoE (IMO all of them should be) With necro u probably are talking about it's elite - which supposed to be situational and has longer cd than most CCs skills in the game.

4. That's nothing new - most ppl would prefer some significant changes to stealth

5. Some classes are designed to deal dmg with one particular skill or rotation (funny that it comes from ele main too) . Obviously these skills are easier to use due to how many diff things they're doing, but they're also easier to counter. 

6. The main problem with this point is not that there's way too much AoE auras /heals/aegis etc. it is the fact that they're applicable WHEN your ally is under other defensive skills. Which creates this toxic support meme, tank + AoE heals/boons

In conclusion - most of these ideas are just number fixes and would lead to more complains by people like you. Some of them are obviously good, others are just scuffed due to lack of understanding classes possibilities and needs or just how PvP operates in this game (rock paper scissors balancing, only conquest being an "okayish" gamemode). But It's probably obvious to everyone why this happens, waiting 3-4 months for a single patch just to get a numbers changed, not many significant changes to something like skill lag, some unnecessary aftercasts being left alone etc.

[ccccc.4963]

On 12/21/2023 at 8:30 PM, Flowki.7194 said:

you can play flawlessly on an active mitigation spec

Is this you trying to dressup some dogwater 0 pressure build?

[Kuma.1503]

1 hour ago, ccccc.4963 said:

Is this you trying to dressup some dogwater 0 pressure build?

Play a tempest and the enemy will simultaneously start burning and bleeding :)

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:36 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

Because right now i have exactly 0 ideas that dont turn out to be a nerf in disguise, and not something to actually make the class more mechanically challenging to play. 

DH - Take the area denial out of the traps--in fact remove area denial as a thing in general, and this would include the untamed cantrip too.  Area denial is too low effort, only made sense on things like guard when they moved slow, but with fast pace of game it's ridiculous to have to dodge invisible walls among all the clutter.  They also took out ancient seeds for this reason, it was 'unfun' to be immob'd for long periods of time off random CC's (i.e. mindless tether into DH trap puke that also prevents you from leaving without stab, etc; and no I don't care you can stunbreak the tether--you could stunbreak out of ancient seeds too.).

Mesmer - Distortions need looking at, and Moa has never belonged in a competitive environment--it's the ultimate no-skill 'I win' for Virt as they can just Moa then condi burst down with no repercussions--even a time shave would work to 2-3s instead of friggin' 6.

Reaper - Do the opposite of what they are about to with sword and address the mobility; reaper was balanced when it was slow, now two HP bars, a pistol, chilled to the bone, etc. etc. makes it a fast spec that's also super low effort.  If Mechanist can get shaved because it's low effort, then so should reaper.

Scourge/Core Guard - Adjust the barrier spam and mitigations to make them more thoughtful to play like Specter is.  As specter can still well bomb but needs to use mobility to stay alive, not block/invuln/barrier.

Soulbeast (surprise!) - Rethink how Dolyak  stance works--can add more to the burst again, but need to make Doylak into an elite or rework it somehow so you can't just spam it YOLO offensively.  Ranger has too much mobility for this and too much potential damage for this, and it's also detrimental to every other ranger spec that can't compete with one button that does 4 things.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Flowki.7194]

11 hours ago, ccccc.4963 said:

Is this you trying to dressup some dogwater 0 pressure build?

You remind me of another guy around here. A quick check of your post history and your motivation is clear; Self proclaimed elitist who craves attention through insulting others, becuase you lack any decency to gain attention with any other means.

 

Welcome to the ignore list.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Arheundel.6451]

On 12/22/2023 at 12:30 AM, Flowki.7194 said:

 

There is nothing enjoyable about fighting simple specs that are often face tank friendly. It means you can play flawlessly on an active mitigation spec, but lose/leave the fight on attrition of your actives and dodges. Warriors being rewarded with 0 0 0 for eating a stun, scourges spewing out AOE+shield, gaurds spewing out blocks, and so on.. it all amounts to such specs getting away with bad play, especially in group fights were the brainded mitigation/aoe overlaps.

 

In every single game Ive played tonight both teams had a DH, in every match a DH topped damage, for doing nothing other than stand on mid and spam blocks-traps. The DH is just scourge.. brainded area denial which is ramped up to toxic levels if they have the brainded core support at their side. What is fun about being forced to play sides by specs that are under half as difficult, or to face them, and put in 3x the effort/risk to counter such cake mode combos?

 

Skill floors need raised on such specs. It is simply better for everybody to punish lack of skill, rather than to reward simplicity at the direct result of punishing complexity. If you lack skill, you can get better.. if the game punished for complexity.. whats the solotion, get worse?

It's funny how posts telling the truth always get drowned with sad emojis...truly a statement of what gw2 is about.

"the game punished for complexity" happens when a game studio goes through different balance philosophies when the developer teams keep rotating out of the job. The team who made elementalist and all core classes left anet and they got replaced by "a good class and great results should not mean complexity, on the contrary".......something.... something guardian main  

Since then we had things like dragon hunter...firebrand...scourge..and I don't need to keep going to get the point across, and the only reason elementalist is even in a decent spot is because an ele main player became an active balance dev. He redesigned many outdated utilities/traits/weapon, so let's be truthful here: elementalist is in a much better place than before he started and the game was in the hands of "complexity should not be rewarded".

For better or for worst, the game is in this state now and asking to neuter anything at this point would be wrong. The vast majority of the playerbase is used to "never dodge" sort of gameplay and you want to remove it...it's not gonna work, at least not as favourably as you think, they tried already with that by removing amulets, sigils from PvP...and that clearly backfired, it only deepened the chasm between professions at least in PvP, where the fundamental difference in base stats and mechanics, could not be covered anymore with gear.

No reason to remove tanky amulets when some professions got access to low CD base "facetanking" mechanics like reaper's shroud or evades or etc etc etc. Dragonhunter and CO& is already in the game, and the only way forward is to add something as simple to play to other professions to balance things out

[ccccc.4963]

5 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

You remind me of another guy around here. A quick check of your post history and your motivation is clear; Self proclaimed elitist who craves attention through insulting others, becuase you lack any decency to gain attention with any other means.

 

Welcome to the ignore list.

Just say you play power Rene 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:30 PM, Flowki.7194 said:

 It is simply better for everybody to punish lack of skill, rather than to reward simplicity at the direct result of punishing complexity. If you lack skill, you can get better.. if the game punished for complexity.. whats the solotion, get worse?

I still don't agree with this line of reasoning, but let's assume I do. 

‐---------‐-‐-‐----------------------------

Steelman begins here.

--------------------------------------------

Okay, but then also give specs that have simple kits by design more complicated options to compete with the specs that are already complex.  I can see how one might consider it frustrating to hit a warrior and get 0s for the trouble, but that warrior also has to put up big foghorn noises whenever they do something that is going to hurt you. If you're punishing them for not having many buttons to press, course of action along with that should be a couple of kits with more buttons to press, with less telegraph. If I had a couple of kits to juggle as war, would that justify my burst damage being more deadly and less avoidable?

Assuming this isn't an argument in the avenue of "this class specifically should be rewarded more in general because it presses a lot of buttons." And your solution to problems like the above is not "just play ele".

Also, keep in mind complex classes can be played in uncomplicated ways while still being effective. surely there would be tailored nerfing where its due?

Edited December 26, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Arheundel.6451]

56 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I still don't agree with this line of reasoning, but let's assume I do. 

‐---------‐-‐-‐----------------------------

Steelman begins here.

--------------------------------------------

Okay, but then also give specs that have simple kits by design more complicated options to compete with the specs that are already complex.  I can see how one might consider it frustrating to hit a warrior and get 0s for the trouble, but that warrior also has to put up big foghorn noises whenever they do something that is going to hurt you. If you're punishing them for not having many buttons to press, course of action along with that should be a couple of kits with more buttons to press, with less telegraph. If I had a couple of kits to juggle as war, would that justify my burst damage being more deadly and less avoidable?

Assuming this isn't an argument in the avenue of "this class specifically should be rewarded more in general because it presses a lot of buttons." And your solution to problems like the above is not "just play ele".

Also, keep in mind complex classes can be played in uncomplicated ways while still being effective. surely there would be tailored nerfing where its due?

They tried to add more complicated options to those professions with access to simplistic gameplay and that did not age too well, with each respective playerbase complaining to no end in sight on the forum till that "complex" option got removed or replaced with yet another simplistic or simply ignorable mechanic in favour of fire and forget gameplay. Well, old blight comes to mind....apparently it was too punishing for the necro community, so they complained so much till they neutered it completely, to a point where it's more of an "eye candy" sort of icon than a downgrade...

The GW2 playerbase has made fairly clear that "complexity =/ reward", but then the same playerbase asks for balance....like wtf?! You simply can't ask for balance when you play something that goes against the very principle of balance = "being punished for mistakes and rewarded for correct decision making", the GW2 playerbase loves to play low risk=high reward specs, so I find it rather hypocritical to ask for balance...it's more people asking for "balance" when considering what they don't play.

Example: Necro players go on the forum and ask to reduce elementalist aura spam, complaining about eles running mid-point and casting shocking aura on all teammates, rather a funny story given how the same necro player goes mid and casts F1 then spins to win followed by "chilled to the bone" for massive AoE CC on a point. And here you can add the usual "but necro dies when focused blah blah"..like other professions don't when focused too....

Maybe the GW2 playerbase should stop pointing fingers outward and never inward all the time....if you want to remove easy options from other professions...we should include also the easy options on your class in the list of removal and that is something this playerbase hates to do, no?!

Even better let's stop with this "balance" talk, it's rather obvious that nobody here really wants it, nobody here wants equality and nobody here wants to be rewarded for their efforts and realistically speaking any MMO would die with that line of thought. Imagine a game where you reward only those people who play 12 hrs p/day..every day, that MMO would not last longer than a year

Edited December 26, 2023 by Arheundel.6451

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

They tried to add more complicated options to those professions with access to simplistic gameplay and that did not age too well, with each respective playerbase complaining to no end in sight on the forum till that "complex" option got removed or replaced with yet another simplistic or simply ignorable mechanic in favour of fire and forget gameplay. Well, old blight comes to mind....apparently it was too punishing for the necro community, so they complained so much till they neutered it completely, to a point where it's more of an "eye candy" sort of icon than a downgrade...

The GW2 playerbase has made fairly clear that "complexity =/ reward", but then the same playerbase asks for balance....like wtf?! You simply can't ask for balance when you play something that goes against the very principle of balance = "being punished for mistakes and rewarded for correct decision making", the GW2 playerbase loves to play low risk=high reward specs, so I find it rather hypocritical to ask for balance...it's more people asking for "balance" when considering what they don't play.

Example: Necro players go on the forum and ask to reduce elementalist aura spam, complaining about eles running mid-point and casting shocking aura on all teammates, rather a funny story given how the same necro player goes mid and casts F1 then spins to win followed by "chilled to the bone" for massive AoE CC on a point. And here you can add the usual "but necro dies when focused blah blah"..like other professions don't when focused too....

Maybe the GW2 playerbase should stop pointing fingers outward and never inward all the time....if you want to remove easy options from other professions...we should include also the easy options on your class in the list of removal and that is something this playerbase hates to do, no?!

Even better let's stop with this "balance" talk, it's rather obvious that nobody here really wants it, nobody here wants equality and nobody here wants to be rewarded for their efforts and realistically speaking any MMO would die with that line of thought. Imagine a game where you reward only those people who play 12 hrs p/day..every day, that MMO would not last longer than a year

The playerbase can complain all it wants (and it will). As long as whatever balancing principle Anet decides to go by is applied across the board. If complicated mechanics net you more damage, every class should have a complicated damage kit for competitive and pve, so that they can do damage if they learn it. If they want simple classes or playstyles to do less/be less effective, then it should be like that for every class. As long as that is adhered to, I don't mind adapting. Whatever effort Anet deems is worth rewarding, as long as that is not adhered to lopsidedly, I'm in most cases fine with it (egregious examples notwithstanding.)

A lot of the streamlining that got applied to classes across the board, especially in the case of warrior, necro, and guardian specs, sprung up suddenly and made the players of a particular competency not only worse, but subject to further nerfing when the new mechanic apparently nobody asked for was shipped too strong. 

[Shagie.7612]

3 hours ago, ccccc.4963 said:

Just say you play power Rene 

joke's on u buddy rene doesn't have passive or active mitigation

[Flowki.7194]

5 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I still don't agree with this line of reasoning, but let's assume I do. 

‐---------‐-‐-‐----------------------------

Steelman begins here.

--------------------------------------------

Okay, but then also give specs that have simple kits by design more complicated options to compete with the specs that are already complex.  I can see how one might consider it frustrating to hit a warrior and get 0s for the trouble, but that warrior also has to put up big foghorn noises whenever they do something that is going to hurt you. If you're punishing them for not having many buttons to press, course of action along with that should be a couple of kits with more buttons to press, with less telegraph. If I had a couple of kits to juggle as war, would that justify my burst damage being more deadly and less avoidable?

Assuming this isn't an argument in the avenue of "this class specifically should be rewarded more in general because it presses a lot of buttons." And your solution to problems like the above is not "just play ele".

Also, keep in mind complex classes can be played in uncomplicated ways while still being effective. surely there would be tailored nerfing where its due?

 

This is what I have been arguing for a long time. If the likes of warrior and gaurd had another utility bar, then the likes of boon rips, healing, stability, some mobility etc etc can go there. Right now, warrior and gaurd have a lot of mechanics crammed into 5 buttons, which makes them very volotile to becoming OP from slight number buffs. Spreading utility/dmg out will then require more concious choices of what "stance" to swap into, and what specific ability to use for the specific situation. That will increase the skill floor and ceiling, it will also allow for much better targeted buffs/nerfs of specific abilitys.. so that things like condi zerker never become a thing. 

 

Yes engi is a good example of a complex class with easier specs. Thats fine, but for example, condi mech should never be as effective as hollow, and it isn't hard to keep it that way. 

[Sereath.1428]

55 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

 

This is what I have been arguing for a long time. If the likes of warrior and gaurd had another utility bar, then the likes of boon rips, healing, stability, some mobility etc etc can go there. Right now, warrior and gaurd have a lot of mechanics crammed into 5 buttons, which makes them very volotile to becoming OP from slight number buffs. Spreading utility/dmg out will then require more concious choices of what "stance" to swap into, and what specific ability to use for the specific situation. That will increase the skill floor and ceiling, it will also allow for much better targeted buffs/nerfs of specific abilitys.. so that things like condi zerker never become a thing. 

 

Yes engi is a good example of a complex class with easier specs. Thats fine, but for example, condi mech should never be as effective as hollow, and it isn't hard to keep it that way. 

I've been lurking on these forums less and less as I've found it depressing to see the remaining players admit defeat and go:
"You know what, the devs are right! Balance is great these days, everyone is a winner no matter what they play!"
Fully embracing ***** certain guardian main dev philosophy.
But I still mostly agree with Flowki.
However, I wouldn't say that complexity should necessarily be a lot more rewarding that classes with a single mechanic/F1. (But it still should be a little more rewarding).
What should be more rewarding is risk, commitment:

Low Risk / Low Reward
High Risk / High Reward

And it's nothing like that.
A more elaborated response I did back in November:

Edited December 27, 2023 by Sereath.1428

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Flowki.7194 said:

 

This is what I have been arguing for a long time. If the likes of warrior and gaurd had another utility bar, then the likes of boon rips, healing, stability, some mobility etc etc can go there. Right now, warrior and gaurd have a lot of mechanics crammed into 5 buttons, which makes them very volotile to becoming OP from slight number buffs. Spreading utility/dmg out will then require more concious choices of what "stance" to swap into, and what specific ability to use for the specific situation. That will increase the skill floor and ceiling, it will also allow for much better targeted buffs/nerfs of specific abilitys.. so that things like condi zerker never become a thing. 

 

Yes engi is a good example of a complex class with easier specs. Thats fine, but for example, condi mech should never be as effective as hollow, and it isn't hard to keep it that way. 

Fair enough.  I can get behind that. 

[Kuma.1503]

1 hour ago, Sereath.1428 said:

However, I wouldn't say that complexity should necessarily be a lot more rewarding that classes with a single mechanic/F1. (But it still should be a little more rewarding).
What should be more rewarding is risk, commitment:

Low Risk / Low Reward
High Risk / High Reward

And it's nothing like that.
A more elaborated response I did back in November:

This sounds good  I'd be down with encouraging and rewarding risk. But I have to ask if people would actually be on board with this. 

 

PvPers will say they care about risk/reward. They'll say they care about rewarding players for mastering something complex... Until the build beats them. Then suddenly they start adding a million asterisks. 

Risky builds are fine. So long as they aren't annoying asf to fight. See: Hammer Warrior, LR Weaver, Power Mechanist, DPS Mesmer in general anytime it's good. 

Rewarding Complexity is fine... Until the complex spec starts becoming immortal in good player's hands because they have a tool to handle everything. 

See: Catalyst, Holosmith, Vindicator, Untamed. 

They'll say high skill builds should perform well. But the instant something becomes meta, they'll downplay the skill required to play the build and paint those that abuse it as button mashing monkys who refuse to acknowledge how hard their build carries them. 

 

Whatever it is people claim they want to reward, it ultimately boils down to "Nerf the things I personally dislike, and buff the things I like." (This can and WILL change based on my mood, the time of day, if I had my caffeine this morning. The phase of the moon. ect).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

What I'd like from PvP

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

None of this is to say Anet should throw up their hands and do nothing. I don't want to be that guy who just says "NO" to every suggestion without offering any of their own. So here's what I'd like to see from PvP. 

LESS FOCUS on arbitrarily nerfing things people don't like, and more on the things that will build a healthier game. 

• Clearer Animations! (Subtle hand waving is NOT clear animations)
• Reducing Visual clutter
• Balancing skills based on how difficult they are to land and how much set up they take (Hundred Blades should hit MUCH harder than it does.)
• Balancing skills based on how obvious their tells are. (Visually noisy skills should scream AVOID ME. Subtle skills should hit less hard). 
• Cleaning up traits which cause skills to proc 100000 different effects. 

We need people to have a better grasp of what's happening to them on a moment to moment basis. That's priority number 1

This is where the frustration in PvP lies. Not knowing WTF the enemy is doing leads players to fill in the gaps with make believe scenarios that justify their loss. Not knowing how an opponent's build functions at a glance leads to frustration and confusion. How can you come up with countermeasures on the fly if you can't tell what's actively killing you? 

A condi thief that steals to me and loads me up with 8 condis immediately on an instant cast skill with no animation... Okay. How am I meant to counteract this? This is an example of something that needs to be changed. 

Meanwhile a hammer Warrior that shouts his clear intentions to kill me from the rooftops before I even enter the arena with him, and telegraphs every one of his moves... Honestly, no problem with that. If I get CC chained it's because I didn't react to his CLEAR intent to kill me and deserve to die for it. 

 

That's my opinion on the matter anyway. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Kuma.1503
Fixed a typo where Warrior had 900 more blades than intended.

[Arheundel.6451]

12 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I still don't agree with this line of reasoning, but let's assume I do. 

‐---------‐-‐-‐----------------------------

Steelman begins here.

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Okay, but then also give specs that have simple kits by design more complicated options to compete with the specs that are already complex.  I can see how one might consider it frustrating to hit a warrior and get 0s for the trouble, but that warrior also has to put up big foghorn noises whenever they do something that is going to hurt you. If you're punishing them for not having many buttons to press, course of action along with that should be a couple of kits with more buttons to press, with less telegraph. If I had a couple of kits to juggle as war, would that justify my burst damage being more deadly and less avoidable?

Assuming this isn't an argument in the avenue of "this class specifically should be rewarded more in general because it presses a lot of buttons." And your solution to problems like the above is not "just play ele".

Also, keep in mind complex classes can be played in uncomplicated ways while still being effective. surely there would be tailored nerfing where its due?

Anet did that mistake already....when they lowered damage across the board and like you, they "forgot" to consider the base differences between all professions. Things like base HP, mechanics and weapons available. These broad applications without clear scope are even worst for the game, it's always the same professions which end up suffering in the end with these broad changes. 

Lowering dmg on a class with 10k base HP is not the same as lowering the dmg on a class with 15k base HP. With the reduced time to kill, the first cannot afford anymore to go full glass before being outsustained and now it's not clearly possible how you can do dmg while still having enough sustain....the 15k base HP can still afford to dmg without having to worry about HP. These little things tend to break the overall balance on the long run

Example: this time the playerbase complain about sustain and Anet goes: " we hear you..." and boom, they nerf healing burst across the board and happy is the community...but hey: stealth, blocks, 2nd HP bar, evades are all tools used to avoid death, right? And shouldn't they count as form of sustain?...sadly that simple thought  process never happens and so at the end of the broad change, only few professions suffer while few others become stronger than ever, and this what happen with broad changes.

In the end these rotating balance principles never get applied equally, they are always some number crunching or trait changes made to please the playerbase for a time.

[Flowki.7194]

I played Cata tonight, it is nion unplayable in mid elo now. Its just not worth the effort anymore, between all the block spam, LB-SB rangers jumping from range to melee with 0 effort, which takes a kitten lot more reaction in auras (at-least power untamed took skill), scourges face tanking 30k bursts, virts jumping from stealth and doing decent fking damage for a spec that has moa and invuln spam. And then warrior.

 

Take this for example. In one of the games, an enemy CORE dps gaurd teleported onto mid, was surrounded by our entire team, which inlcuded 2x DH's with traps (what a suprise). Despite all that, the core gaurd downed our necro. Now sure, the necro was probably new or lower skill.. but can we just have a moment of silence to apreciate the BS front loaded face tanking mechanics that allowed that to take place. And then im suppose to go up against a half decent WB on cata, which takes god knows how much more skill that I just don't have. 0 isnentive.

 

Please fix your game Anet.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Flowki.7194