The balance is...

[Myror.7521]

@Sahne.6950 another factor might also be that easier to Play classes are also most of the time easier to understand. Means you could most of the time easily tell what the enemy will do or use next just to know what he allready used and in what situation he is or was. While against more complicated classes they have multiple choices what to use in what situations ^^. So its even more difficulty to counter Play them at all ^^

[Flowki.7194]

22 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

The problem with this philosophy is that it takes focus away from the player and puts it on the class. What you're suggesting is that the better player should make it into high ranks because of the class they picked, not based on how well they play. 

In healthy games, there are very often characters/classes that are easy to pick up, but reward solid fundamentals over complexity. This allows players to express their skill via different means. 

I play a lot of Smash, Ultimate is considered by most to be the most balanced title to date in spite of its massive roster. And while there are difficult top tiers in that game like Joker, Pikachu, Sora, and Shulk. There are also more straight forward top tiers like Wolf and Palutena who have low bars to entry, but greatly reward players with good fundamentals. Most players in this game will agree that, in a battle between good characters, it's the better player who tends to win. 

Gw2 has countless problems that hider it as a competitive title (the biggest being it wasn't designed from the ground up as a PvP game). The existance of "easy" classes in high level matches is not one of those problems.  

 

Quite the opposite, and it isn't a philosophy, its a biological fact, which is shown across all cultures past and present. Where is communism now?.. I agree with most of what communism is based on, but it is simply too much against the grain of human nature to ever work, bar human engineering. Easy should not be as rewarding as hard.. there are thousands of quantified scientific journals that back up what I am talking about, millions if you include theory. It is proven time and time again why destroying this balance leads to desaster, the majority of people are not cognitively designed for "everyone is a winner", and for good reason. 2 workers, why do 80% of the heavy lifting for 50% of the reward?, it leads to the reverse compitition, who can do the least amount of work for 50% of the reward. Look at Gw2 class representation, what is the least effort spec for the most reward, and what a suprise in representations. This law is univesal.

 

What you go on about in other posts is also a complete misrepresentaion of complexity, you need to stop conflating. If player A has 5 buttons that achieve 5 unique outcomes, and player B has 1 button that achieves the same 5 unique outcomes, there is a clear difference here. Player A has to look at the situation, understand what ability is the most applicable for that situation, and press the corrosponding button. Player B, in any situation, presses the same button. This is an extreme example, but it is the definition of complex vs simple. You are trying to suggest simple specs are "complicated" by brigning in universal game sense skills that all specs need. Player A has more room for mistakes, becuase player A might not understand the game enough to know what the correct button is OR, player A might simply press the wrong button by mistake (mechanical error). Now, player B might have something called "limitation".. only having 1 button means an instand CD wall. Limitation is NOT the same as difficulty. The increased difficulty for player A, comes with a reward for the complexity here, having more buttons means resources can be divided better, less CD wall, which leads to "difficult BUT less limiting". 

 

Now, take a class like warrior, very few buttons to press that apply to MANY situations, that means the spec should be inherently limited (which it was). But then, Anet just buff numbers through the roof (Blade/condizerker).. to outright mitigate that clear limitation. So, warrior is now "easy BUT less limiting".  It is at this point where 90% of warrior mains make the error of confusing limitation with difficulty.

 

What I am saying here is genuinely not an opinion, it is the collective finding of science across hudrends of years, which isn't always right.. but its all we have. Fair compitition has consistantly proven to be important, where it is not deemed fair, people stop engaging with it. Easy specs being in the same ball park for reward as complex specs is not fair (only people who want same reward for less effort side with this argument/ those are the game theory "cheaters", the leaches, the paracites, many names for it). It leads to A: Easy specs becoming the common demominater AND B: those who do not find such specs fun, quit the game, or sPVP.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Flowki.7194]

9 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

From a logical standpoint... i get what you are saying.... i really do.

BUT... if we would just blindly follow your train of thoughts here.....  we steer in to a big problem...   Please try and really understand and think about what i am saying here.

 

Certain specs are just alot simpler than others... by design..   If they would put you in charge right now.. and you implement your  "effort -> reward philosophy"...

Then Necrowould be super bad... regardless of how good you play it.. simply because its not as mechanically challenging, than for example Holo or Ele.

 

Answer the following thing

-> Do you want the "ez-specs" to be straight up bad, just because they are easy? <-     

-> Do you want Ele/Holo and Herald to dominate high elo, just because they are hard to play? <-

Because that is what would be the next logical step when following your logic.        

The answer here has to be NO.    

There is builds and specs that are easier to play...   Thats just how it is right now. And Anet cant and wont change that at this point of the game.

 

so the only thing they can do, is:    make all the specs, regardless of complexity, when played perfectly, perform roughly on the same level.    <-  THAT is their current philosophy.   

And is that soo bad?   

You simply have to accep that certain things are easier... and others are more challenging.     

Pick what works for you... but dont be mad at people for picking the other thing. 

  Reveal hidden contents

you also need to understand that the Vindicator you are playing falls in the "ez" category.  

Following your logic, would mean nerfs to it, as the "effort<->reward" is simply out of whack.

It can get away with alot of things simply because you can mindlessly spam evade and blockframes. But still is able to burst people down in mere seconds, inbetween those windows.

I personally think its easier to play than Reaper, atleast inside of Conquest. A Reaper has to be positioned right all the time to never get focused by the team, as they have no "full mitigate" outside of their 2 dodges.   Reapershroud wont protect you when there is 3 people wanting you dead.

A vindi.....  not so much.  You have ALOT of Evade and blockframes to completly negate incoming Damage, which lets you get away with bad positioning alot more and take alot more "heat" compared to necros.

Just my 2cts tho.    mileage may vary... but i feel like Vindi is in the top 5 easiest specs. 

It is not a philospophy as I pointed out above. If I was in charge of this game, the first thing I would do is begin raising the skill floor on many specs, so that buffs to their skill ceilings would not send the spec mega OP. Warrior, gaurdian and necro are in dier need of higher skill floors.. it is bottlenecking them from getting any serious buffs (they are already verging OP just becuase of being so simple to play and ANet just buffing raw numbers).

 

Don't get me twisted, I do not "hate" any class, I would like to play them all, I would like them all to be engaging. Im not talking about hammer cata piano mode here.. but come the fk on people, are any of you going to defend how mind numbingly easy zerker is to play for its damage output? and in all fairness, condi core thief is just as brainded, as is untamed condi.. specs that are AGAIN on the line of becoming rediculously OP if Anet just continue to buff raw numbers.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Kuma.1503]

1 hour ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Communism bad cuz Hooman Nature. Not sure why I'm getting politic in video game forum tbh. 

Not even sure how that's relevant. I guess the mindset here is communism = forced equality = the wrong people rise to the top of the socioeconomic hierarchy. 

Ez classes good = the wrong people make it to the top of the ranked ladder = people who don't deserve to win will win? 

There's no way to really... debunk this without getting into a political debate  aaaand... I'm not gonna do that <3

 

1 hour ago, Flowki.7194 said:

 

If player A has 5 buttons that achieve 5 unique outcomes, and player B has 1 button that achieves the same 5 unique outcomes, there is a clear difference here. Player A has to look at the situation, understand what ability is the most applicable for that situation, and press the corrosponding button. Player B, in any situation, presses the same button. 

This... is actually a great example, because this describes the difference between, say, Ele and Mechanist

One is currently meta, one is broadly considered garbage.  By this logic it should be the Mechanist that terrorizes high ranks, but it isn't. Why is that?

 

Lets say the I'm playing I'm playing D/F Ele. I get hit by condis. Cool, Swap to fire, gain fire aura, transmute aura, then press button again to gain new fire aura. Boom 4 condis immediately gone. Then I get stunned. K, I either lightning flash out of danger, I mist form, or I overload to break stun. Cool. 

Lets say I'm playing Mecha, what most consideer the most braindead spec in the game. I get condi bombed. Cool, I shfit signet to cleanse myself. Then I get stunned. Cool I shift signet to stunbr-- wait. 

Sure would be nice if I had 2 different buttons to handle these two different situations~  Turns out there's a trade-off to having fewer condensed buttons. 

1 hour ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Now, take a class like warrior, very few buttons to press that apply to MANY situations, that means the spec should be inherently limited (which it was). But then, Anet just buff numbers through the roof (Blade/condizerker).. to outright mitigate that clear limitation. So, warrior is now "easy BUT less limiting".  It is at this point where 90% of warrior mains make the error of confusing limitation with difficulty.

Fair. You could also argue that for every ele that decides to turn themselves into a walking mirror instead of using LoS. They've mistaken class knowledge for actual game fundamentals. 

While ele might disproportionately test how well you know your class. Warrior disproportionately tests a players PvP fundamentals. Both of these are still skills,  I'd aruge, if you can play Warrior well, you can probably swap to any other class and do decent thanks to your solid understanding of the game's core mechanics. 

(Probably why I cannot play Warrior well because I am a carried engi/ele main)

1 hour ago, Flowki.7194 said:

What I am saying here is genuinely not an opinion, it scientific fact. [citation needed]. 

Lol.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Kuma.1503
Trimming the fat. Hard to keep things short when there's a lot of points to address.

[Flowki.7194]

58 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Not even sure how that's relevant. I guess the mindset here is communism = forced equality = the wrong people rise to the top of the socioeconomic hierarchy. 

Ez classes good = the wrong people make it to the top of the ranked ladder = people who don't deserve to win will win? 

There's no way to really... debunk this without getting into a political debate  aaaand... I'm not gonna do that ❤️

 

This... is actually a great example, because this describes the difference between, say, Ele and Mechanist

One is currently meta, one is broadly considered garbage.  By this logic it should be the Mechanist that terrorizes high ranks, but it isn't. Why is that?

 

Lets say the I'm playing I'm playing D/F Ele. I get hit by condis. Cool, Swap to fire, gain fire aura, transmute aura, then press button again to gain new fire aura. Boom 4 condis immediately gone. Then I get stunned. K, I either lightning flash out of danger, I mist form, or I overload to break stun. Cool. 

Lets say I'm playing Mecha, what most consideer the most braindead spec in the game. I get condi bombed. Cool, I shfit signet to cleanse myself. Then I get stunned. Cool I shift signet to stunbr-- wait. 

Sure would be nice if I had 2 different buttons to handle these two different situations~  Turns out there's a trade-off to having fewer condensed buttons. 

Fair. You could also argue that for every ele that decides to turn themselves into a walking mirror instead of using LoS. They've mistaken class knowledge for actual game fundamentals. 

While ele might disproportionately test how well you know your class. Warrior disproportionately tests a players PvP fundamentals. Both of these are still skills,  I'd aruge, if you can play Warrior well, you can probably swap to any other class and do decent thanks to your solid understanding of the game's core mechanics. 

(Probably why I cannot play Warrior well because I am a carried engi/ele main)

Lol.

 

https://ibb.co/b5ZXYds

You don't understand anything I am talking about, which is fine. This link is from the game Ive just played, it directly backs up everything I have said. This type of solo sPVP class representation isnt rare.. you want more screenshots? I tell what I cannot give you a screen shot of though, a game full of ele, hollow and vindi... becuase it hasnt happened.

 

Btw, this is not about ele, it is about the game overall. But since you braught it up, many specs have teleport, and all that I have played, have higher range than ele tp, while nobody is using mist becuase of its rediculously high CD. Warrior has better virsionS of mist, on half the CD, wanne swap? Your example then gets worse, you talk about condi removal on a support come dps spec that is not great overall.. or else, where are all the tempest DPS? Im tired of people talking out of their kitten, look at the link again.

 

What are the odds though? I make a post suggesting warrior necro and gaurdian have low skill floors, are too easy for the reward, which leads to such classes dominating representation. Then, the very next game I join are full of warrior, necro and gaurdians. But this isnt a problem man.. this isnt an echo chamber at all.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Myror.7521]

@Flowki.7194 i gotta think this is tha state in lower tiers. I saw multiple willbender each game while been in middle or lower g3 tier. But when your on higher games this just changes. Still at least one Guardian each Match but the rest of team could be litterly all classes.

Also as i know the "lower Skill needed classes" as you said are in favor in lower tiers cause ..... Well they are easy to learn and peops doesn't know how to Dodge and when to Kite (or at least not too Well)

 

The Suggestion is: Yes there are more "easy to Play" in ranked/unranked Games. But is it Bad? No i don't think so. Cause as said most of them are not good and just take this classes to learn how to Play Well. This means in higher tiers its just a mix cause classes are more or less in Balance rn. (Well its still like there are some Builds that are meta and see more Play in this case but still)

[Flowki.7194]

17 minutes ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Flowki.7194 i gotta think this is tha state in lower tiers. I saw multiple willbender each game while been in middle or lower g3 tier. But when your on higher games this just changes. Still at least one Guardian each Match but the rest of team could be litterly all classes.

Also as i know the "lower Skill needed classes" as you said are in favor in lower tiers cause ..... Well they are easy to learn and peops doesn't know how to Dodge and when to Kite (or at least not too Well)

 

The Suggestion is: Yes there are more "easy to Play" in ranked/unranked Games. But is it Bad? No i don't think so. Cause as said most of them are not good and just take this classes to learn how to Play Well. This means in higher tiers its just a mix cause classes are more or less in Balance rn. (Well its still like there are some Builds that are meta and see more Play in this case but still)

Right, so lower/middle ranks is full of easy and effective specs. Then, we all know the shameless top plats duo Que dodge to farm low gold/silvers (MMR is litterally getting that bad). So, an average level player, on a complex spec.... so much reward.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Kuma.1503]

2 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

https://ibb.co/b5ZXYds

You don't understand anything I am talking about, which is fine. This link is from the game Ive just played, it directly backs up everything I have said. This type of solo sPVP class representation isnt rare.. you want more screenshots? I tell what I cannot give you a screen shot of though, a game full of ele, hollow and vindi... becuase it hasnt happened.

Congratulations, you have provided proof of an anecdote. Which supports the claim that Warrior, necro, and Guardian have a higher payrate than other classes. 

 I'd believe it. It also alligns with what I've been seeing. These have been the most popular specs for as long I can remember. 

High Playrate is correlated with something being OP. Obviously the stronger it is, the more people want to play it. However, correlation =/= causation. This debate up until now has been an attempt by many people to show the negatives to the easy design you claim (or at least imply) is purely beneficial. 

2 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Btw, this is not about ele, it is about the game overall. But since you braught it up, many specs have teleport, and all that I have played, have higher range than ele tp, while nobody is using mist becuase of its rediculously high CD. Warrior has better virsionS of mist, on half the CD, wanne swap? Your example then gets worse, you talk about condi removal on a support come dps spec that is not great overall.. or else, where are all the tempest DPS? Im tired of people talking out of their kitten, look at the link again.

Sounds like you're latching onto any irrelevant detail to avoid the argument behind what's actually being said. 

That being the pros/cons of condensed skills vs individual specialized skills.

One allows you to adapt to any situation provided you know when to apply each skill to the appropriate situation. 

The other requires less thought because skills function as a catch-all, BUT using a skill to handle one situation might leave you vulnerable as it was ALSO your primary to handle a the next negative situation you find yourself in. A.k.a the Mechanist example which was conveniently ignored. 

This requires the player to find other more creative problem solving methods, or simply rely on solid fundamentals/game sense to carry them instead of looking at what tools exist within their class's kit. 

2 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

What are the odds though? I make a post suggesting warrior necro and gaurdian have low skill floors, are too easy for the reward, which leads to such classes dominating representation. Then, the very next game I join are full of warrior, necro and gaurdians. But this isnt a problem man.. this isnt an echo chamber at all.

People follow the path of least resistance. Even if difficult classes better results when mastered. If you can achieve similar results for less effort, most will opt for less effort. 

People also like to copy what works. If I see some guy carrying on Necro. I'm going to think "Wow this guy just carried on Necro. I bet If I copied him I could do that too". This reinforces the behavior

This leads to some classes having vastly higher representation than others. This is why I caution people against concluding that "X Class is played more = X class is better". This is very often not the case. 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[vilesoldier.9826]

3 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

long post…good tho

 

Kuma I think you’re starting to come to a similar point in understanding Flowki’s viewpoint as I did; where any argument you present is hit with resentment > resentment > resentment 
(resentment for other classes i mean)

 

At this point you gotta ask yourself; do you think Flowki likes this game? From what I’ve read, largely no.

 

But I think the more interesting question is; from all that he’s put forth, is there any game with a roster of characters/classes/heroes that blatantly says “mechanically difficult classes will definitively perform better than easy classes”?

 

Isn’t the point of bringing different classes with different playstyles together that they should generally be on an even playing field?

 

“bUt ItS nOt FaIR”

go play chess then, idk. Video games might not be your thing

Edited December 20, 2023 by vilesoldier.9826

[Sandzibar.5134]

That guy comes across as a super salty broken record, pining for his glory days of facerolling op cata, and 5 man ele comps.

🤡

 

 

[vilesoldier.9826]

4 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Don't get me twisted, I do not "hate" any class

 

4 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Easy specs being in the same ball park for reward as complex specs is not fair (only people who want same reward for less effort side with this argument/ those are the game theory "cheaters", the leaches, the paracites, many names for it)

 

“Parasites” xddd

yikes

[Flowki.7194]

22 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Congratulations, you have provided proof of an anecdote. Which supports the claim that Warrior, necro, and Guardian have a higher payrate than other classes. 

 I'd believe it. It also alligns with what I've been seeing. These have been the most popular specs for as long I can remember. 

High Playrate is correlated with something being OP. Obviously the stronger it is, the more people want to play it. However, correlation =/= causation. This debate up until now has been an attempt by many people to show the negatives to the easy design you claim (or at least imply) is purely beneficial. 

 

I never mentioned OP (I don't think), Im talking about the relative effectivness of low skill floor specs in relation to high skill floor specs. The top ceilings of specs and high skill play (absolute minority of the playerbase, like 5%) is not the point of my arguments, never has been, never will be. 90% of this playerbase would be more effective on a lower effort spec, becuase the reward for the same level of skill (the average player) of playing a complex spec, is lower than playing a low effort spec (compare hammer cata to scourge or SB). That is very clear from representations. Cata has always been good, where are all the catas? Hollow is good, where are they? vindi and even herald in good hands pumps out some nasty damage, but where are they on avarage levels?..

Necro, warrior, gaurdian and SB, all do it easier, for similar or more reward. Ive played all the specs I mention, I have no reason to lie, it is clear what specs pump out damage or support easier, and its no coincidence those specs are the most represented.

 

23 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Sounds like you're latching onto any irrelevant detail to avoid the argument behind what's actually being said. 

That being the pros/cons of condensed skills vs individual specialized skills.

One allows you to adapt to any situation provided you know when to apply each skill to the appropriate situation. 

The other requires less thought because skills function as a catch-all, BUT using a skill to handle one situation might leave you vulnerable as it was ALSO your primary to handle a the next negative situation you find yourself in. A.k.a the Mechanist example which was conveniently ignored. 

This requires the player to find other more creative problem solving methods, or simply rely on solid fundamentals/game sense to carry them instead of looking at what tools exist within their class's kit. 

 

Im latching onto nothing. Limitation is not the same thing as difficulty, there is an objective difference. I will not explain it again, read that post if its unclear, im really not trying to be a kitten here but seriously, they are different things.

 

23 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

People follow the path of least resistance. Even if difficult classes provide similar or even slightly better results when mastered. If you can achieve similar results for less effort, most will opt for less effort. 

People also like to copy what works. If I see some guy carrying on Necro. I'm going to think "Wow this guy just carried on Necro. I bet If I copied him I could do that too". This reinforces the behavior

This leads to some classes having vastly higher representation than others. This is why I caution people against concluding that "X Class is played more = X class is better". This is very often not the case. 

 

That is why you ensure all skill floors are at a similar level, so that the difference in effectiveness is not a gaping canyon, like it is in GW2, leading to an over representation of certain classes.. dramatically limiting class/spec diversity. In the average game now, both teams have a support gaurd, thats a given. The games are then very often won by the team that has the most necros. Gaurd+scourge nion garuntees 1 point is safe, if they are half decent they litterally take a 3v2 to down in any reasonable time, while not being hard to play. Roaming is often done by slighter harder specs, and requires better 1v1 or know how, it's very common to see "roamers" getting caught out in a +1 on both teams. But, the team with the garud+scourge, again, nion garuntee the holding of 1 cap, it tilts the game, for 0 effort. Stand still, spam blocks/boons, ground aoe, while also currupting boons on enemy, and > res if they get past all that.

 

DH is also a huge problem. Such a low skill floor for the damage it can pump out with traps, and it takes a lot more effort/know how about the game to effectively counter a DH.. they are getting an absolute free ride atm.

[Myror.7521]

@Flowki.7194 I mean the meta actually is.... Core Guardian (heal)/Scrapper(roam,Teamfight,plus one), Condi Specter (plus one,roam,Teamfight)/condi warr (Sidenode)

Aside this there are also other builds that are also somewhat good in ranked but maybe not against specific teamcombs meaning Bladesworn (Sidenode)/ Catalyst (me Not ele Main but i think: Sidenode,Teamfight while not too good in last one)/ Reaper (Teamfight)/ Scourge (Teamfight)/ Holosmith (Sidenode, plus one, roaming), Condi Druid (Sidenode), Herald (plus one, roaming), Vindicator (roaming, plus one), Virtuoso (Sidenode)..... I could name even more i am seeing these days running around. And all of this builds are not just as OP as the meta is but they are just good enough to deal with them If it get played good enough. 

 

But then again as the others said (and me too). Ele might be one of the hardest to learn class. (Cause there are so many skills u need to learn when to use etc.) but that does not mean its harder to actually play then other once. 

More skills does only mean you need longer to play the class right. And thats basicly it. The Rest is get a feeling for Press buttons fast enough and so on. Ele is just better than other classes in the sence that it get more skills that it could actually use. While other classes just need to kite or wait till their allready used skills CD finished. And THIS exactly is the difference. 

So in the end all classes are just as good as the other..... in theory but then there are also builds that working better with the gamemode than other. Exactly this is then the time when metabuilds drop in ^^

[Flowki.7194]

22 minutes ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Flowki.7194 I mean the meta actually is.... Core Guardian (heal)/Scrapper(roam,Teamfight,plus one), Condi Specter (plus one,roam,Teamfight)/condi warr (Sidenode)

Aside this there are also other builds that are also somewhat good in ranked but maybe not against specific teamcombs meaning Bladesworn (Sidenode)/ Catalyst (me Not ele Main but i think: Sidenode,Teamfight while not too good in last one)/ Reaper (Teamfight)/ Scourge (Teamfight)/ Holosmith (Sidenode, plus one, roaming), Condi Druid (Sidenode), Herald (plus one, roaming), Vindicator (roaming, plus one), Virtuoso (Sidenode)..... I could name even more i am seeing these days running around. And all of this builds are not just as OP as the meta is but they are just good enough to deal with them If it get played good enough. 

 

But then again as the others said (and me too). Ele might be one of the hardest to learn class. (Cause there are so many skills u need to learn when to use etc.) but that does not mean its harder to actually play then other once. 

More skills does only mean you need longer to play the class right. And thats basicly it. The Rest is get a feeling for Press buttons fast enough and so on. Ele is just better than other classes in the sence that it get more skills that it could actually use. While other classes just need to kite or wait till their allready used skills CD finished. And THIS exactly is the difference. 

So in the end all classes are just as good as the other..... in theory but then there are also builds that working better with the gamemode than other. Exactly this is then the time when metabuilds drop in ^^

You need to stop focusing in on ele, Ive said multiple times its not specifically about ele. I've played nion all of the specs youve just mentioned, and I know kitten well what is harder and what is easier. Take this for example.. I would say revenent supports actually has some of the hardest specs in the game.

 

You are trying to convince me that all specs are of equal difficulty, and its absolute bs. Again another case of conflating limitation and difficulty.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Myror.7521]

@Flowki.7194 Well but Revanent is simply not a good build ^^. This would be the same if i would say but Sword Sword condi core Warrior isn't good xD

Edited December 21, 2023 by Myror.7521

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Flowki.7194 Well but Revanent is simply not a good build ^^. This would be the same if i would say but Sword Sword condi core Warrior isn't good xD

What are you talking about? rev support is above good. Herald, vindi and core have strong, but decently skilled support builds. People don't even know that is true becuase theyve never taken the time to properly try them (I played staff, scepter, and dagger support tempest for a while, along with some gaurd, I can compare very well). It also has multiple decent condi builds, which you'll see will shine very bright if the low skill 1 button condi builds get bruaght in line (which they should).

Edited December 21, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Kuma.1503]

Not gonna quote or this will be too long. Lets distill this down a bit. 

"Simple classes achieve similar results for less effort. Thats why they're played more."

Correct. This is not a problem because PvP skill tests players in ways beyond what class they pick. 

 

"Limitation =/= Difficulty"

Technically correct if arguing semantics. However, limitation imposes its own brand of difficulty. 

Take options away from the player and the game becomes harder. This is the core principle behind many self-imposed challenge runs.

 

"All specs are not equal in difficulty. Easy specs are easier even with their limitations. They should be rewarded much less"

All specs are not equally hard, correct. 

However, what matters is not whether the harder class wins, but whether the player who played better wins. 

If you play a complex spec at an above avg level, but devote so much mental bandwidth toward your class that your fundamentals start to slip. Someone on an easier class CAN capitalize on that to gain the W. 

This is how things SHOULD work. Don't like it? Just play better, or let go of ego and play something easier. 

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Sahne.6950]

17 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

but come the fk on people, are any of you going to defend how mind numbingly easy zerker is to play for its damage output?

REEEEE🙉    i am   thiiiiiis 👌 close from loosing it bro...

you NEED to read what people are telling you. Otherwise we are just spinning in circles...

 

i keep it short

 

• Noone is defending anything.  
• Your observations are spot on.
• Some specs are just easier, and some are harder. That is their ACTUALY INTENDED DESIGN, TO MAKE GW2 ACCESSIBLE FOR ALMOST EVERYONE, WHILE ALSO CATERING TO PEOPLE THAT SEEK A CHALLENGE.
• People are telling you, that this is a 10 year old game, on its last breath.   
• Anet cant and wont completly rework every charackter at this point of the game.
• Nor do they have any interest in doing so, because according to them... its working out.
• They also cant make the ez specs straight up bad, just because they are easy.
• The most reasonable thing they can do at this gamestage, is having them perform roughly on the same level, when played perfect.
• You can demand nerfs, to things because they overperform. That is totally fine.  i would agree if you said: "BSW is op".
• But:   "BSW is so easy to play! Ele is alot harder to play, so it should be worse than ele"    is not a valid argument and not something people will agree with.

Okey and now stop for a second....     and read the bold sentences again.       and again.   and again.        AND AGAIN.

Read them over and over and over again until you understand this thing down here:

------> You are spot on.  But your "problem" is actually intended gamedesign.<---------

 

So what do you do now?

There is two things:

 Join the dark side.  

or play whats fun for you, and learn to appreciate that you are able to make the harder specs or even some goofy offmeta things work.

 

The second i stopped caring about "being the best / winning / reaching topspots / my elo" was the second i  learned to appreciate this shitshow for what it is.      

Stop pretending like this is any form of fair competition. Because it really isnt.

I treat pvp games as " those 5 people are forced to fight me for the next 10 minutes"  so i just kitten around and have some fun fights. Thats all that pvp is for me nowadays.   If you reached that point, you are able to take the kitty thrown your way ALOT better.  

1 teammate afk?  great! i can train to fight outnumbered.  Whole team afk? Great!   lets see how long i can kite these 5 players!  

For me its only fights.... winning or loosing doesnt matter at all.  Its all just practice fights.

STOP CARING AND HAVE FUN.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[felincyriac.5981]

when deadeye is nerfed sure.

[Cicero.6374]

honestly the balance is great and better than ever except for deadeye

remove deadeye just look at mat finals

[Frequency.6407]

1 hour ago, Cicero.6374 said:

honestly the balance is great and better than ever except for deadeye

remove deadeye just look at mat finals

While we're at it can we remove weaver as well.

[Khalisto.5780]

yes nothing is omega strong, i just get annoyed by the same things for years, which is pulsing CC and stealth spam

[Flowki.7194]

19 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Not gonna quote or this will be too long. Lets distill this down a bit. 

"Simple classes achieve similar results for less effort. Thats why they're played more."

Correct. This is not a problem because PvP skill tests players in ways beyond what class they pick. 

 

"Limitation =/= Difficulty"

Technically correct if arguing semantics. However, limitation imposes its own brand of difficulty. 

Take options away from the player and the game becomes harder. This is the core principle behind many self-imposed challenge runs.

 

"All specs are not equal in difficulty. Easy specs are easier even with their limitations. They should be rewarded much less"

All specs are not equally hard, correct. 

However, what matters is not whether the harder class wins, but whether the player who played better wins. 

If you play a complex spec at an above avg level, but devote so much mental bandwidth toward your class that your fundamentals start to slip. Someone on an easier class CAN capitalize on that to gain the W. 

This is how things SHOULD work. Don't like it? Just play better, or let go of ego and play something easier. 

 

 

Pvp tests people in many ways, sure.. but most of that comes down to "game sense", which is a univeral skill. Specs have varied mobility to roam and side node for example, but at that point you compare romaer X to roamer Y. Then you compare group fight X to group fight Y spec.

 

This playerbase is riddled with people who conflate limitation with difficulty. If you were to cut zerkers condi damage in half, it is just as easy to play, but half as effective. Double Czerkers zerkers current damage, it is just as easy to play, and twise as effective (in a nutshell). This is how Anet have essentially been buffing and nerfing specs. A spec can be hard to play + effective or hard to play and not effective. A spec can be easy to play and effective or easy to play and not effective. That is far from semantics. If these easy specs that are in use now were so limiting, they wouldnt be reaching meta, and they wouldnt be highly represented.. because XYZ complex specs (played by average players) would be farming them all day long, which they arent, evidently by representation. Where is the limitation exactly?

 

You said; "All specs are not equally hard, correct >>>> However, what matters is not whether the harder class wins, but whether the player who played better wins."

Youre really going to make me point this out. It is easier to play better (and more consistantly) on an easy spec, why on earth do you think people play them? especially when ANet have beefed up dps/mitigation values that DID NOT increase difficulty of the easier specs, but increased effectivenes. That means that even when playing well, you then begin losing fights to an easy spec, who is putting in half the effort. Thats before "mistakes". You are simply trying to justify the reward that easy specs are now getting, which is bs.

Ive mentioned this a few times, after months of playing hammer cata, I had no memory of winning a 1v2, I actively avoided getting +1d. After a few hours of playing BS (litterally 1/5th the difficulty of hammer cata), I won a 1v2, and people were litterally running away from 1v1s all the time. I wasnt playing great, but you didnt have to, nion every button you spam gave face tanking shield.. I was getting away with MANY things that would land me back in spawn on hammer cata. I can give you such examples on other specs that get away with bad play, carried by low skill floor mechanics. This idea you have about "better player wins"... only exclusively true when low skill floor spec meets low skill floor spec, essentailly a mirror match. Then you also have the nerve to say a player on a more complex spec should "play better", while a player on a low skill floor spec plays like kitten, and gets hard carried by easy mechanics (like I did on Blade).

Edited December 21, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Flowki.7194]

13 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

REEEEE🙉    i am   thiiiiiis 👌 close from loosing it bro...

you NEED to read what people are telling you. Otherwise we are just spinning in circles...

 

i keep it short

 

• Noone is defending anything.  
• Your observations are spot on.
• Some specs are just easier, and some are harder. That is their ACTUALY INTENDED DESIGN, TO MAKE GW2 ACCESSIBLE FOR ALMOST EVERYONE, WHILE ALSO CATERING TO PEOPLE THAT SEEK A CHALLENGE.
• People are telling you, that this is a 10 year old game, on its last breath.   
• Anet cant and wont completly rework every charackter at this point of the game.
• Nor do they have any interest in doing so, because according to them... its working out.
• They also cant make the ez specs straight up bad, just because they are easy.
• The most reasonable thing they can do at this gamestage, is having them perform roughly on the same level, when played perfect.
• You can demand nerfs, to things because they overperform. That is totally fine.  i would agree if you said: "BSW is op".
• But:   "BSW is so easy to play! Ele is alot harder to play, so it should be worse than ele"    is not a valid argument and not something people will agree with.

Okey and now stop for a second....     and read the bold sentences again.       and again.   and again.        AND AGAIN.

Read them over and over and over again until you understand this thing down here:

------> You are spot on.  But your "problem" is actually intended gamedesign.<---------

 

So what do you do now?

There is two things:

 Join the dark side.  

or play whats fun for you, and learn to appreciate that you are able to make the harder specs or even some goofy offmeta things work.

 

The second i stopped caring about "being the best / winning / reaching topspots / my elo" was the second i  learned to appreciate this shitshow for what it is.      

Stop pretending like this is any form of fair competition. Because it really isnt.

I treat pvp games as " those 5 people are forced to fight me for the next 10 minutes"  so i just kitten around and have some fun fights. Thats all that pvp is for me nowadays.   If you reached that point, you are able to take the kitty thrown your way ALOT better.  

1 teammate afk?  great! i can train to fight outnumbered.  Whole team afk? Great!   lets see how long i can kite these 5 players!  

For me its only fights.... winning or loosing doesnt matter at all.  Its all just practice fights.

STOP CARING AND HAVE FUN.

I have read all your posts and fully understood your points, but ill opt to keep complaining about low skill floor specs having numbers buffed to make them more effective than is justifiable. If youve got in touch with your inner Brahman, then enjoy the game, there is no need to engage with me.

[Kuma.1503]

I believe we've reached a point in this conversation where both sides understand the points the other is making. Now we come down to a difference of opinion. 

The most important question to answer now is:

"Is bladeswsorn OP"

YES. 

...  Okay now the ACTUAL question.

"If complex classes offer no advantage to the average player. Why bother engaging with them at all"?

 

This is not an unreasonable question to ask. Obviously, if you're putting extra work in, you expect to get something extra out of it. That would only be fair yes?

On the surface, yes. Typically as metas develop, it's the complex characters that will sloooowly eek their way towards the top, and the simpler characters that will fall off. This is because there is an inherent advantage to having more tools at your disposal once you have mastered them. 

But there's a caviat. This process is slow, and you mostly see it in games that have ceased to receive updates. This is because in order for optimization to take place, the meta needs time to settle and then develop. Gw2 devs have a lovely habit of taking a sledgehammer to anything and everything that moves, reworking builds, specs, and even entire classes into something unrecognizable. This makes it very difficult for players to optimize, and only the best at adapting are going to be able to truly reap the rewards of playing something complex. 

Ele, Rev, and Holosmith have all had a very solid history in PvP, being at the top or near the top of the meta more often than not. But the barrier to entry prevents most players from capitalizing off of their strengths. 

This means that, yes, if the average joe on one of these complex classes runs into the average joe on a simpler class, you can bet that most of the time, the simpler class will win. 

And honestly... that's fine. Because the issue here is ultimately that players just aren't using the tools available to them properly. The people playing the complex class are making more mistakes and are getting punished for those mistakes more often. The natural result of that is that they preform worse once until they've crossed that skill hump. 

 

The real benefit of playing something complex is ultimately enjoyment. I know. Enjoyment? FUN? In MY WHOLESOME CHRISTIAN GAME? 

I'm an engi/ele main, not because I'm looking for an advantage, but because simple classes bore me. I need something extra to sink my teeth into. I need obscure mechanics and interactions to master. I NEED to be playing at 200 APM just to keep my ADHD brain happy or my last two functional brain cells will start crashing into each other in protest. 

If all you care about is results. It's time to be realistic, an easier spec is the way to go. But if you don't mind taking the more difficult road. The reward is still there for you in the end. You'll most likely have a very solid spec under your belt that has withstood the test of time (Literally when has Holo/Herald not been at the very least GOOD in the meta?)

I don't need my class to cover for my mistakes to compensate for the increased difficulty curve.

I feel no need to punish others because I intentionally chose the more difficult road for myself. I'm in it for the enjoyment of mastering something challenging. 

It's up to you to decide what's more important. 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Kuma.1503