Engi Thoughts

[Cattoo.4659]

So, I admit that I am new to the game (220 hours), most of that play time is on the engineer. I admit I do not have the most informed opinion because of this. Still, I have some thoughts about the class that I want to share in a public place.

1. Comparison to Ele

Engineers are supposed to be comparable to Ele in complexity, this seems like the idea behind the engi, tankier, with less potential dps than the ele. I feel as though the kit system kinda works to detriment this. Engis with 1 kit effectively get the normal amount of weapon skills, and 7 utility skills (I say this because toolbelt skills with the exception of the rifle turret one feel like them.) This in no way compares to Eles with 20 weapon skills and 3 utility skills, especially considering the fact that utility skills are defined by long cooldowns. This gets a little better with holosmith, considering the fact that photon forge has the heat mechanic, and from my playtime with condi-smith, this is just fine mechanically if you put a kit with it. Still, the base engineer is severely lacking in the complexity it is supposed to have. My solution for this would be to give the class weapon swapping; I am aware that this is antithetical to the class's design, and this is a rant about that. Still, I would argue in comparison to the class that engi is supposed to be on the same level as complexity wise, I think this will honestly be reasonable. I also acknowledge this would require A-Net to effectively double the weapons engi has access to, which would admittedly be dev resources spent on a weird idea.

2. Condi-Scrapper

I have no idea why this isn't in the game. I think it may be that you would still be able to generate barrier whilst disabled, but I have no idea, so I would like clarification here.

3. I hate mechanists

The idea that a meta build exists with a rotation that is 3 keys and 3 other "utility keys" on a maximum complexity class is frankly insulting. If the catalyst came out in EoD with a rotation that simple and performed the highest DPS out of the whole class, I don't think many Ele players would be happy about that. I feel like my weapon swapping idea from before would alleviate this slightly, although not by enough to even put it on par with low complexity classes. Heal mechanists are okay, mind you. The fact that you have to jump between two kits instead of having a bar full of signets makes it within the realm of being reasonable design.

Please critique my opinions if I got something messed up, I believe that that is how learning happens.

Edited January 8 by Cattoo.4659

[SeTect.5918]

38 minutes ago, Cattoo.4659 said:

2. Condi-Scrapper

I have no idea why this isn't in the game. I think it may be that you would still be able to generate barrier whilst disabled, but I have no idea, so I would like clarification here.

Nah its not that. Necro can do that too with blood bank.

I think its just that this isnt meant to have support, power and also condi.
I d love to have condi scrapper tbh, because i like scrapper the most of all engi specs but i also like condi.

But sadly most e specs that have traits for condi, power and support lack one of the 3 immensely.
Engi related Example:

• Mechanist has traits for power, support and condi, but power is kinda weak on it. I mean you can use it but deals low damage compared to condi.

Scrapper just gives power dps and support and does those 2 well.
Holo just gives condi and power dps and does those well.

[Jerus.4350]

3) You’ll find many long term Engi mains agreeing, BUT that was the point, to simplify Engi for the masses.  Similar to how Mesmer got Virtuoso simplifying their play style.  EOD as a whole just gave us a lot of easy builds.  They actually nerfed flamethrower on release so that Superconducting Signet was better…

 

2)  condi Scrapper doesn’t exist because it was designed as a power spec with a bruiser mentality.  It’s gotten a Lot of reworks and was pretty bad when it released.  That said, condi quick Scrapper is perfectly viable thanks to core Engi’s strength.  Dropping ~2-3k dps from Tools on core condi for group quickness and such.  If they wanted to make condi dps Scrapper a thing they’d need to do it through a GM trait.

 

1) This is pretty subjective, what makes something complex?  Just more buttons?  I think Engi’s high learning curve has always been based on the idea that you need to track cooldowns you can’t see more than just number of skills.  Ele may have 20 weapon skills, but you only have 5 at a time and are locked out of the rest until you can attunement swap.  Engi on the other hand can swap kits almost at will, so those additional skills are part of your current setup and need to be used properly.  We have tricks like tying cool downs to weapon/toolbelt skills that are visible but that’s not always possible.

I’ve been seeing a lot of request for weapon swap lately, and my main thought is, “why?”.  Like when would you use it?  Hammer is king on power.  Sword is solid on Holo over 100 heat but requires camping the auto for most of the non forge part.  Rifle is just bad.   Then for condi mace isn’t really giving us much of anything, so just camp pistols.  All I see coming from it is annoying myself when I swap weapons because I’m bashing weapon swap to drop a kit.   I could maybe see having shield on swap for the block, but that’s toolkit’s job.  
 

And I’ll end with saying that core Engi is actually the most complex of the Engi builds imo.  They’re all pretty similar with either a hammer base or pistol/condi base.  Holo you just layer forge rotation on top, mech you add some pet skills, and Scrapper is pretty much just do the main rotation.  But core Engi has either dodges+2nd throw mine to worry about on power (gotta be in the hitbox for second throw mine) or it has streamlined kits to worry about on condi.

Edited January 9 by Jerus.4350

[noneHotBuildTest.7251]

less QQ, more pewpew. 

[Dawdler.8521]

10 hours ago, Jerus.4350 said:

2)  condi Scrapper doesn’t exist because it was designed as a power spec with a bruiser mentality.  

No, it was designed to be reasonably used by both power and condi (barrier based on taking hits, not strike damage) then Anet changed it to only work with power and promised to look into a way to make it work for condi.

Then they promptly ignored it and nerfed everything else that made the scrapper unique to the point we now have 1s stealth on 1s pulse that last 3s with a goddamn elite skill.

[Corvolupo.5708]

11 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Nah its not that. Necro can do that too with blood bank.

I think its just that this isnt meant to have support, power and also condi.
I d love to have condi scrapper tbh, because i like scrapper the most of all engi specs but i also like condi.

But sadly most e specs that have traits for condi, power and support lack one of the 3 immensely.
Engi related Example:

• Mechanist has traits for power, support and condi, but power is kinda weak on it. I mean you can use it but deals low damage compared to condi.

Scrapper just gives power dps and support and does those 2 well.
Holo just gives condi and power dps and does those well.

I agree, but 1 note for modern Power Mech: the Hybrid version (concentration) with hammer Is currently One of the strongest options available to SOLO play, capable of 20k DPS, tons of self boons, High sustain, High CC and escape options, on top of being really Easy and intuitive to play. 

[Jerus.4350]

4 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

No, it was designed to be reasonably used by both power and condi (barrier based on taking hits, not strike damage) then Anet changed it to only work with power and promised to look into a way to make it work for condi.

Then they promptly ignored it and nerfed everything else that made the scrapper unique to the point we now have 1s stealth on 1s pulse that last 3s with a goddamn elite skill.

Yeah, lots of changes and I might be wrong but I don’t remember Scrapper ever really doing anything for condi, just riding the coattails of core Engi’s condi ability.

 

(and yeah stealth gyro in wvw is a freakin joke)

[Rezzet.3614]

6 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

No, it was designed to be reasonably used by both power and condi (barrier based on taking hits, not strike damage) then Anet changed it to only work with power and promised to look into a way to make it work for condi.

Then they promptly ignored it and nerfed everything else that made the scrapper unique to the point we now have 1s stealth on 1s pulse that last 3s with a goddamn elite skill.

and thus a Meme was born : "Purity of Purpose"

[Sindust.7059]

17 hours ago, Cattoo.4659 said:

The idea that a meta build exists with a rotation that is 3 keys and 3 other "utility keys" on a maximum complexity class is frankly insulting. If the catalyst came out in EoD with a rotation that simple and performed the highest DPS out of the whole class, I don't think many Ele players would be happy about that.

Go try condi tempest. Nowadays condi tempest, while camping fire attunement, can do more damage than power mech with less input. Power mech is not anywhere near highest dps with the simple rotation you describe, it's in fact worse than most support builds that people accept in groups. And even the complex rotation with 2 kits and hammer will be lower than power quick berserker. And condi mech isn't any less complicated than virtuoso or specter, and is in fact more complicated than a "proper" tempest when played with more than 1 kit.

The things you read in 1+ year old threads are no longer true. If anything, power mech needs a massive buff, and the removal of the range limit on Mechanical Genius to be viable. Even I'm playing scrapper now, even though I hate hammer as a weapon (because of the insanely long animation lock of hammer 3 that will throw me off of edges if the boss happens to port away) and I hate playing melee, because rifle power mechanist is just this bad, and if I have to use hammer anyway, with scrapper I at least don't have to worry about what parallel universe the stupid mech ran off into.

17 hours ago, Cattoo.4659 said:

2. Condi-Scrapper

I have no idea why this isn't in the game. I think it may be that you would still be able to generate barrier whilst disabled, but I have no idea, so I would like clarification here.

Condis do not generate shield on scrapper, so even if condi scrapper was viable, he would be squishier than the power variant.

[Dawdler.8521]

38 minutes ago, Rezzet.3614 said:

and thus a Meme was born : "Purity of Purpose"

Purity of purpose was because of… purity of purpose 😑

Edited January 9 by Dawdler.8521

[Ghos.1326]

21 hours ago, Cattoo.4659 said:

So, I admit that I am new to the game (220 hours), most of that play time is on the engineer. I admit I do not have the most informed opinion because of this. Still, I have some thoughts about the class that I want to share in a public place.

1. Comparison to Ele

Engineers are supposed to be comparable to Ele in complexity, this seems like the idea behind the engi, tankier, with less potential dps than the ele. I feel as though the kit system kinda works to detriment this. Engis with 1 kit effectively get the normal amount of weapon skills, and 7 utility skills (I say this because toolbelt skills with the exception of the rifle turret one feel like them.) This in no way compares to Eles with 20 weapon skills and 3 utility skills, especially considering the fact that utility skills are defined by long cooldowns. This gets a little better with holosmith, considering the fact that photon forge has the heat mechanic, and from my playtime with condi-smith, this is just fine mechanically if you put a kit with it. Still, the base engineer is severely lacking in the complexity it is supposed to have. My solution for this would be to give the class weapon swapping; I am aware that this is antithetical to the class's design, and this is a rant about that. Still, I would argue in comparison to the class that engi is supposed to be on the same level as complexity wise, I think this will honestly be reasonable. I also acknowledge this would require A-Net to effectively double the weapons engi has access to, which would admittedly be dev resources spent on a weird idea.

2. Condi-Scrapper

I have no idea why this isn't in the game. I think it may be that you would still be able to generate barrier whilst disabled, but I have no idea, so I would like clarification here.

3. I hate mechanists

The idea that a meta build exists with a rotation that is 3 keys and 3 other "utility keys" on a maximum complexity class is frankly insulting. If the catalyst came out in EoD with a rotation that simple and performed the highest DPS out of the whole class, I don't think many Ele players would be happy about that. I feel like my weapon swapping idea from before would alleviate this slightly, although not by enough to even put it on par with low complexity classes. Heal mechanists are okay, mind you. The fact that you have to jump between two kits instead of having a bar full of signets makes it within the realm of being reasonable design.

Please critique my opinions if I got something messed up, I believe that that is how learning happens.

Hello there friend,

Just a couple tidbits: scrapper was meant more to be a power focused elite spec, being a bruiser or "tank" (this was recently changed and scrapper is supposed to be "support" now, pretty stupid). That's why it doesn't have much to offer in the condition realm.

I like the idea of the weapon swap, but I also don't. However, one idea to bounce of yours, would be to add a kit to the weapon swap button, which it can then act as a "second weapon" but in reality it would be a kit. Same cd, same everything, just instead of taking of a bar on the utility spot, it lives in the weapon swap button.

[Zzik.5873]

Scrapper is just not a real espec. Its does not have any newmechanic compare to other espec, function gyro does not really count as a espec mechanic lets be real. So yeah scrapper is more like core engi but with gyro and group superspeed + quickness wirch is kinda dump and does not fit at all with the descriltion of this "espec".

[Sobx.1758]

3 hours ago, Zzik.5873 said:

Scrapper is just not a real espec. Its does not have any newmechanic compare to other espec, function gyro does not really count as a espec mechanic lets be real.

Plenty of other especs act similarly and it doesn't make them any less of an espec.

3 hours ago, Zzik.5873 said:

So yeah scrapper is more like core engi but with gyro and group superspeed + quickness wirch is kinda dump and does not fit at all with the descriltion of this "espec".

Description of scrapper:
"Scrappers are support-oriented engineers with access to gyros and a plethora of other cleansing abilities. You can aid multiple allies in large-scale battles with massive area-of-effect skills, healing and providing superspeed and other necessary boons. They are also adept at crowd control."

Not sure what's "not fitting at all" for you here. Looks like complaining for the sake of complaining, while forgetting what especs are supposed to be in the first place.

[jason.1083]

4 hours ago, Zzik.5873 said:

Scrapper is just not a real espec. Its does not have any newmechanic compare to other espec, function gyro does not really count as a espec mechanic lets be real. So yeah scrapper is more like core engi but with gyro and group superspeed + quickness wirch is kinda dump and does not fit at all with the descriltion of this "espec".

Compared to other Especs of Engi, yes Scrapper is plane and much closer to core.

But if you look over into other classes their Especs also don't stray too far from the original, for the most part they don't gain some special mechanic adding onto or replacing the core one, which seems to be your qualification.

Superspeed and Quickness fit in just fine thought, that's kind of what Scrapper is by definition, a mobile bruiser that buffs and soaks damage for surrounding allies. 

In a parallel universe I'd even go as far and say I'm against the Applied Force trait and I think it would make more sense to make it so Might gives Toughness or Healing Power instead of going even harder on Power.

[Jerus.4350]

I actually view Scrapper as "core" now, because it's play is more basic than Core Engi >.<. 

 

Core Power Engi is the Scrapper Hammer rotation but with dodges and double throw mine.  Holo PBM is Scrapper Hammer with Forge.  pMech is Scrapper hammer with pet skills.  Scrapper is just doing the basic rotation and using filler skills such that you maintain Superspeed. 

 

It is pretty much core with Function Gyro and some different bonuses (superspeed/barrier).  But, we're not alone, Catalyst is also basically core Ele with an F5 now.