Build "Issues" are *building* my resolve to quit playing and I need genuine advice....

[Hibuki Kye Menio.4723]

Hello to all that see this.

Plainly, this is a cry for help. I don't know what to do and I've been constantly tweeking my build, double and triple-reading through menus I can find everywhere and anywhere, seeking better and better versions or my current iteration of the build I want. I'll do my best to explain the issue as clearly as I can, please be patient with me as I try to explain why this is ruining the entire experience for me. 

For Context:
To begin, I started playing Elementalist almost on a whim after being largely disappointed with some 6 years of Ranger and Druid, I really wanted to play with bows but quickly found they were very underwhelming against other choices like axes, swords, and such. I made a bunch or tester characters to see what felt nice. Eventually I bumped into the idea of a Tempest healer with Dagger-Horn, it works just fine, but feels unnecessary in all but the most intense battles. I feel like a total side-liner instead of useful. So I tried fitting into some DPS Tempest shoes. I went into a deep-dive of reading and learning abilities/traits/moves/etc because as much as they might be "good" I strongly dislike just grabbing some cookie cutter build off the META and becoming someone else's work/preferences. I want to get to "good" and maybe eventually "great" on my own merit and builds, whether they be similar or totally out there in nature, not ignorantly on the back of another (as rude as that sounds I mean it respectfully).

I found I really enjoy Duel-Daggers, learned that Condi has a higher return than Power with them in the training area, talked over build choices with a friend for good measure, triple checked with a calculator build site (I'll link that too for good measure here, so that others can see exactly where I'm trying to go with this), it goes on and on. I really felt like I was doing good improvements, little by little, until I got where I am. I watched my DPS go up, 6K. 9K. 12. 16. I'm now hovering somewhere just below 16/17K in REAL boss fights as long as they aren't this supposed "Power Fight" that I've been told of (I really don't know, people just say that some bosses are weaker to Power or Condi, I have no real proof). 

Here's that calc-site for those who want all the context on the build or to just see it outright: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGhAgilZw0YLsGWJOqPmtLA-DSRYMRDmMsxIeB0JB8dMgFe/0gKA-e

TL;DR: I'm REALLY trying to build the best I can, I really am.

The Issue:
I started heading down a path involving a Bleed-Condi Tempest build that should ideally be proc-ing Burning that, in turn, should be proc-ing Blind in a vicious cycle, allowing me to safely apply more stacks while abusing Blind to occasionally score a free dodge, and building a lot of damage off of the 2k Condi while resting, and 2800+ Condi with might. Part of this involved me taking Rabid/Trailblazer gear to get Toughness up to capitalize on [Strength of Stone] while managing my Precision so that I can maintain a 60% Crit-rate because I've been told Crit still effects Conditions?? The end result is me being able to utilize buffs from shouting and sigils to quickly reach full Might, even on my own, while using my toughness to survive in the meantime because it is WAY to easy to die in a lot of expansion content. That toughness is added to the loop boosting my Condi even more until I have notable stats of: a "meh" 1750 Power, a dense 2000 Toughness and 2990 Armor, an "ok" 60% Crit with Fury I can also apply myself, a whopping 2829 Condi, with +88% Bleed Time and +38% Burn Time. 

I thought all of this was at least "pretty good". I've no illusions of this being some world-shaking build, but it's my build and I like it. I also have no issues with me tanking because of my toughness. I can change my moves to block/aegis/invuln and stay alive just fine, and I love Tanking/Healing more that DPS anyway. (you might think it's masochistic, but rather than "hit it until it dies", I just find it more fun and rewarding when it is "it's going to hit you, try not to die" or "it's going to kill them, don't let it") Anyway, I have all I think I need but people now treat me like in the kittening devil himself.

I shouldn't ever tank, "not supposed to be tough at all, why did you build it at all", "your (16K) damage is kitten", god-forbid if fight a "Power Fight" and it get anywhere near 10K-- I'll be flat-out kicked from any public anything. The list of complaints is infinite and I truely don't know why I'm so hated when I'm (excuse the egotism) tap-dancing through the same PvE content that would gib me before this. In fact I'm the one doing the gibbing now. Why am I so wrong???? The extreme responses from anyone other than my closest friends is sapping my will to play the game anymore and that hurts. It's just spit and vitriol from everyone but no-one will let it fly when it seems to it's user to work just fine, much better than before even.......

TL;DR: It seems like everyone hates me but I genuinely don't know why.

Edit: Quick disclaimer: I want to express that I don't hate the META or am avoiding it, I actually use it as reference material to gain a better understanding of the class. It just doesn't feel fun to copy stuff 1-to-1 and never know why the big, funny number is what it is. It doesn't feel like me, more like memorizing and answer and repeating it for a test. It's just... kinda unsatisfying to parrot the crowd.

Also, I've been doing some more diving and I'm seeing that Elementalists are lauded as the worst possible class in the game, being the most complex with the worst returns in damage, as well as the lowest health and more. I'm seeing that just about any class can do better easier, for less. Is this true? Am I trying to fight gods with @#$% on a stick?

Edited February 6 by Hibuki Kye Menio.4723

[Chyro.1462]

It really depends on the content.

For anything open world, events, story, dungeons - pretty much anything works. Up to a certain difficulty, even for fractals and strikes.

As soon as you go into instanced group content of a certain difficulty level (high fractals, certain strikes, raids and any cms) you'll run into people that have certain expectations of what you should bring to the group. For a dps, that's usually having dps on the level of the average meta build. Meta builds exist for a reason - they're what people figured out works best for certain classes and builds. If your self-made build can't hold up to that standard and underperforms notably, you may run into people that complain about it.

If you enjoy healing more, why not bring that for the harder group content? The kind of content where people care about dps output is usually also content that requires a healer in each sub-squad (or high fractal party). Heal-alac tempest works quite well for most harder content, I mainly play that myself. You can still keep your other build for playing the easier content, if you enjoy that build. Or if you want to dps in harder content, maybe overcome your reluctance of going for a meta build. There's also some easier dps builds (LI - low intensity builds) that are a lower hurdle to learn, I myself play a LI condi tempest that can pretty much camp fire attunement all the time and deal decent enough dps (though I usually also prefer to heal).

On a side note, you really don't want toughness on a dps build for PvE. The tank role in content that even has it is usually done by either a pure tank or a tank healer build. A dps doesn't need toughness since its the healer's job in harder content to keep the dps alive through boons and healing, and investing stats in that hurts your damage output too much compared to using pure dps stat gear (even if you have a trait that gives a % of toughness as condi, it doesn't make up for it).

 

 

Edited February 6 by Chyro.1462

[Hibuki Kye Menio.4723]

Yeah, I do actually use Alac-Heal Tempest too, nice to find another! I use it for most content at the moment but it just really doesn't feel active. Maybe it's my groups never needing it, or maybe we're overcompensating but most of the time I'm just camped in Water Attunement and Overloading on cooldown. I have piddly for damage so I don't help there, but I also never get to heal because no one ever gets past 80% at worst. Unless of course someone soaks a mechanic or is trying to win a stupid-prize, but those really aren't the norm. It's like I said for that earlier, I just feel like a side-liner, warming a bench and granting passive regen, only to bubble on cooldown. 

I also feel like I might need to rethink my wording in the main post but I'm not actually all that reluctant to use META things, in fact I used a lot of them as reference material. It's more so that I really don't want to be a 1-to-1 copy of something I have no working understanding of just because it's the approved response. It just..... saps fun just so I can get big numbers I don't know why I got. It's like it's just some written exam at that point. Just memorize and repeat the *right* answer.

[Chyro.1462]

Hm.. shouldn't be camping water even as a heal tempest. Can't really keep up alac 100% that way, gotta rotate through a few elements. As a healer your job isn't just to heal, it's to keep many useful boons active and stacked up - for tempest that's 25 stacks of might, and possible perma uptime of protection, regen and vigor (optionally swiftness too). So you're often going through fire + overload, blasting fire fields for more might with combos, going through earth overload for protection. Air usually just if you need CC or want to give swiftness. You do have a decent amount of passive healing as tempest through regen and Soothing Mist, which is likely why you rarely have anything to heal in easier content - when people end up going low, you react with burst heals.

If you enjoy playing heal but don't wanna feel useless when not healing, you could try running Celestial gear for full allrounder stats. It's strong enough for heal tempest to fulfill its support role for most content, and you can do a bit more damage when there's no healing required while going through your boon rotation (though in hardcore content where people really end up dying, the heal output of pure healer gear like harriers may be required). Also makes you a bit more tanky, which is okay for a heal (could also fulfill the role of heal-tank in certain instances) - it helped me with being comfortable enough with healing in t4 fractals since it was a bit of a safety net, till I felt confident enough to put more pure heal pieces in.

Can't help you much with your dps build, cause I'm not super experienced with dps. Fairly sure that for condi, ele deals more damage through burning than bleed - so not having maxed burn duration likely isn't great. The toughness gear probably costs you quite a bit of expertise, compared to something like Viper's gear. My fire-camping LI build runs runes of Balthazar, which makes it easy to cap burn duration (though the build doesn't care about bleed), and scepter/focus for the most burning dmg - on the other hand if I play as alac-dps tempest, I do have to rotate through fire and earth to keep up alac thus also applying some bleed (and warhorn for more boons). Relic of the Fractal which is good for condi requires applying bleed, so in my fire-only build I need to have a earth sigil to apply bleed for triggering the relic.

Dunno how much all that helps, just writing from personal experience. I haven't done super hard content like HTCM, but doing T4 fractals regularly, tried a few easier fractal cms, and cleared a bunch of raids and some easier strike cms. But I'm not really a number crunching guy. I read up what's expected of my class and role, try to find a fitting build and learn how I can adjust it to best suit any given situation.

Edited February 6 by Chyro.1462

[Hibuki Kye Menio.4723]

4 minutes ago, Chyro.1462 said:

Hm.. shouldn't be camping water even as a heal tempest. Can't really keep up alac 100% that way, gotta rotate through a few elements. As a healer your job isn't just to heal, it's to keep many useful boons active and stacked up - for tempest that's 25 stacks of might, and possible perma uptime of protection and regen (optionally swiftness too). So you're often going through fire + overload, blasting fire fields for more might with combos, going through earth overload for protection. Air usually just if you need CC or want to give swiftness. You do have a decent amount of passive healing as tempest through regen and Soothing Mist, which is likely why you rarely have anything to heal in easier content - when people end up going low, you react with burst heals.

   ...

It helps, believe me. All this info is useful and noted, I promise. I'm being really reductive with the healer part cuz it was just kinda a side note, but yes, I do use my healer to it's fullest. It's just feels real passive for all but stuff like the T4's and "Killer" stuff like Boneskinner. That to the side though, I've been told about a Fire Camping Scepter/Focus build. Might that be the one people call "Fire Wizard"? If so, my friend I mentioned showed me that one and was flat-out just mashing the keys on cooldown-- like actual face-rolling behavior-- the damage was good, don't get me wrong, but that one really looked like prime brain-off gameplay! 😆

[Chyro.1462]

That's the build I'm running, I prefer not having to focus on the dps rotation too much so I can pay more attention to the fight's mechanics. Thus I went for that LI fire-smashing build 😄

[Dadnir.5038]

"Toughness" is the reason people "hate" you because on some bosses aggro is based on toughness. It mean that the more toughness you have the more likely you'll take the aggro from the "tank" creating unwelcome variable in the boss's positioning. The consensus is that unless you are the "tank" of the raid, you don't take any toughness in your build.

If you want to lose the "hate", just switch your gear like that:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGhAgilZw0YLsGWJOqPmtLA-DSRYfRDWOsxIeB0JB8dMgFePrgKA-e

In any way, toughness only impact aggro in PvE, it barely provide any survivability at all.

[soulknight.9620]

Im not gonna sugar coat it: there is only one way you can avoid "player hate" - "go meta or go home". Sure you can play an offmeta build, sure you can experiment and find a better build that suits your playstyle, sure you can find a "mash your keyboard" build and get 5-10% less dps than meta build (but way more easier build). But overall players (at least the elitist part of gw community) will hate you for this. Its the flaw of gw2 game desing that led to this situation. Classes are balanced of meta builds and SC benches and thats it. There is literary 0 chance you will figure a build yourself that works "better" than meta builds cause devs are balancing off SC benches. And even if you suddenly do find such a build, you will get nerfed either directly or as a "collateral damage nerf". 

Or you can just be like many of us here and ignore meta builds, SC and elitist attitude. Get a decent LI/buttonmash build and adjust it for your needs and have fun, while ignoring all of the "hate" that will be coming your way. 

[zeyeti.8347]

Use any build you wish if it get the job done , i don' think many ppl just watch your dps as long as it is decent , or boon uptime as long as you provide a 75-80% of the key boon , and healing if you maintain non avoidable damage off group concern . But if you say you play quickness dps and has same dps as a healer and 15-20% quickness uptime , don't get big eyeballs when your group ask you to be more performing, replace you with someone else or kick you.

That's the deal you play with a group/squad , you have to apply to this ppl requirement , if you play alone , nobody is gonna care or bother what you do even if your build or your gameplay make no sense at all.

[AliamRationem.5172]

The only way people would know the specifics of your build would be if you're telling them (we have no way of viewing other player's gear).  So, if you're initiating conversations about buildcraft and then getting defensive about it when other players try to explain what you're doing wrong, I can understand why you might see negative results.

So, what are you doing wrong?  Trait-wise you're in good shape.  Blinding ashes is fairly useless, but so is persisting flames with no power damage, while pyromancer's puissance has the unfortunate side-effect of burning off 10 might stacks every time you rotate out of fire.  Otherwise you're using the obvious picks for a condi DPS build.

The big standout here is burn duration.  If possible, you should use full trailblazer for this build to benefit from expertise and trapper rune to increase condition damage and further increase condition duration.  Scepter/warhorn would increase your damage as well, although I don't see anything wrong with dagger/dagger for an open world build.  The focus on crit rate is also misguided as you don't have a lot of on-crit damage and your power damage is very weak.  Expertise would benefit you a great deal more.

Where you might run into issues with this build is in group content.  Group compositions typically include support roles and those that don't are going to require top tier damage.  For this reason you should avoid sacrificing damage for sustain and limit choices that negatively impact damage output for personal preference.

Unfortunately, you haven't reinvented the wheel with this.  It's a pretty standard meta condi DPS build modified with some questionable choices that come down to you being a new player.  As I said, the big one to change is the rune and gear to increase that burn duration.  Beyond that you're fine.  This build should work well for open world and deal plenty of damage.  When you get into group content, I'd switch it up to viper stats and play scepter/warhorn and take persisting flames instead of burning ashes.  Minor details: Food should be expertise primary until you cap condition durations at +100% and I'd probably work the fire signet in to a utility slot and use glyph of elementals if you want better damage.

[Hibuki Kye Menio.4723]

10 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

"Toughness" is the reason people "hate" you because on some bosses aggro is based on toughness. It mean that the more toughness you have the more likely you'll take the aggro from the "tank" creating unwelcome variable in the boss's positioning. The consensus is that unless you are the "tank" of the raid, you don't take any toughness in your build.

If you want to lose the "hate", just switch your gear like that:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGhAgilZw0YLsGWJOqPmtLA-DSRYfRDWOsxIeB0JB8dMgFePrgKA-e

In any way, toughness only impact aggro in PvE, it barely provide any survivability at all.

Thanks, this is very helpful as an alternative. I'm just going to lament going back to being one-shot by most stuff. Hopefully the VIT will be enough for that not to be the case. 👍

[Hibuki Kye Menio.4723]

9 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Im not gonna sugar coat it: there is only one way you can avoid "player hate" - "go meta or go home". Sure you can play an offmeta build, sure you can experiment and find a better build that suits your playstyle, sure you can find a "mash your keyboard" build and get 5-10% less dps than meta build (but way more easier build). But overall players (at least the elitist part of gw community) will hate you for this. Its the flaw of gw2 game desing that led to this situation. Classes are balanced of meta builds and SC benches and thats it. There is literary 0 chance you will figure a build yourself that works "better" than meta builds cause devs are balancing off SC benches. And even if you suddenly do find such a build, you will get nerfed either directly or as a "collateral damage nerf". 

Or you can just be like many of us here and ignore meta builds, SC and elitist attitude. Get a decent LI/buttonmash build and adjust it for your needs and have fun, while ignoring all of the "hate" that will be coming your way. 

That's...... real sad. If that's really the case I can't see the game ever improving, rather than slipping into an irreversible power-creep spiral. Why bother giving us an "option" at all if there was only ever one "right" one,  as per even the Dev's? Also, thank you for the up-front honesty, I appreciate you leveling with me.  As far as PvE goes I'll keep using this build or maybe even use the tweeked gear further up, I'm just destroyed over literal weeks of grinding and research turning me into an elitist's Public Enemy #1. I had made this build at all b/c I was trying to get into higher contents.

[Hibuki Kye Menio.4723]

5 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

The only way people would know the specifics of your build would be if you're telling them (we have no way of viewing other player's gear).  So, if you're initiating conversations about buildcraft and then getting defensive about it when other players try to explain what you're doing wrong, I can understand why you might see negative results.

  ...

That was very educational and explained some of my lingering questions, thank you. I'm not really engaging in open conversations over the build but it's hard to keep secret when so many of the LFG groups want proof at the door, or worse, half-way in when something specific comes up like who in the (often-times)death-ball is tanking. I'd also rather not lie if asked. I've come to see that the build is not good for groups, I'm just struggling with the elitism and my sunk costs now.

As for the one question that did pop up from reading this: You mentioned that I should take Power and [Persisting Flames] into consideration but during one of my test iterations I had 3000 Power vs just 1500 Condi, but after my friend clocked the damage on ArcDPS, we found my statuses still accounted for 54% of my damage even on my most-perfected rotation at the time. I was lead to think then that, at least for the condition-rich Elementalist, that Power was largely wasted effort against just sheer Condi. Is that not the case? And if so, what's the missing element in my test-runs, is the Scepter/Horn or Focus combos that much better at returns on Strike Damage? 

[draxynnic.3719]

6 hours ago, Hibuki Kye Menio.4723 said:

That was very educational and explained some of my lingering questions, thank you. I'm not really engaging in open conversations over the build but it's hard to keep secret when so many of the LFG groups want proof at the door, or worse, half-way in when something specific comes up like who in the (often-times)death-ball is tanking. I'd also rather not lie if asked. I've come to see that the build is not good for groups, I'm just struggling with the elitism and my sunk costs now.

As for the one question that did pop up from reading this: You mentioned that I should take Power and [Persisting Flames] into consideration but during one of my test iterations I had 3000 Power vs just 1500 Condi, but after my friend clocked the damage on ArcDPS, we found my statuses still accounted for 54% of my damage even on my most-perfected rotation at the time. I was lead to think then that, at least for the condition-rich Elementalist, that Power was largely wasted effort against just sheer Condi. Is that not the case? And if so, what's the missing element in my test-runs, is the Scepter/Horn or Focus combos that much better at returns on Strike Damage? 

It's not the case, but it is worth noting that 3000 power versus 1500 condition damage probably is indicative of a condition build. Partly this is because condition damage starts at 0, while a level 80 character has a certain baseline level of power that is the equivalent of zero condition damage: I don't know off the top of my head what precisely that is, but it does mean that you can't compare power and condition damage numbers directly. Second, power builds usually also rely on precision and ferocity to get crit damage up: while increasing power alone will always increase your power damage, it won't compare to having those additional multipliers.

In terms of trait selection, though, it is worth noting that sometimes a power build will use condi traits or vice versa because that works out to be an overall DPS increase, especially when the build is inherently more of a hybrid as often happens with elementalist: as you might have noticed, it's pretty hard to build elementalist to be purely power or condi, it's just a matter of shifting the proportions.

When it comes to preferred damage types against specific bosses, there are two factors:

1) Armour affects power but not condition damage. So the armour of a boss can affect which is better.

2) Some bosses have short burn windows, clear conditions when they phase, force you to fight a sub-boss that naturally loses conditions when it does, or otherwise mess up condi builds that often require some time to build up their stacks of conditions. Power builds do better here because they do their damage immediately rather than potentially losing damage when conditions are cleared or rendered less effective. That said, it's worth noting that burn builds are less susceptible to this because burn durations are generally shorter, so they ramp up quicker and have less to lose if the condition is nullified.

[Seon.8402]

I've had the same kinda feel where I don't just want to copy/paste a build and memorize a rotation. I like to mess around a bit and try out more uncommon things, as there are a lot of traits, utility skills that are often unused in the meta builds (which does makes sense, as they tend to focus on maximizing damage). For me it's more interesting to be able to trade a bit of damage for some type of utility to be used reactively to help the team, even if I'm playing a DPS or boon DPS. But as others said there is a reason certain builds are common, especially in the context of instanced content where players will specialize in roles.

It sounds like you're already accomplishing your goal of learning a spec deeply and understanding the"why" behind the meta builds listed on build sites. This is valuable as it can help you learn more about what makes these builds work and able to adjust them on the fly based on the needs of your group or specific bosses. Adding on to that, there are so many traits, utilities and weapons that just may not ever be really useful in a gamemode like instanced content but come in handy to swap around for WvW, PvP, Soloing things in Open World. So again for a class you really like to play studying it as you are is a great thing if you want to play it everywhere.

I have found when trying out my own builds that arcdps is very handy not only to see overall damage or if I am generating enough boons but another really cool feature is a "Self Skills" panel that shows a percentage for you how much each skill or condition contributes to your total damage. It is super useful to help find out which of your skills are actually the most damage and which to prioritize, which ones you can swap out. The damage listed in tooltips can give some idea but is not always really easy to tell and keep track of.

As far as group dynamics go I don't think I have much to add to what others have already said. Usually people want to get a clear as quick as possible, so more damage = faster. But for me it's worth to trade for some utility that may save us from wiping. Less wipes = less time for people to complain and look for points of failure. It is a fine line, you don't want to give up too much damage if that is your primary role. I will say if you get some people together that regularly run strikes or raids, that can be some room to try more unconventional builds and roles.

P. S. I am also a Heal Tempest fan. I have only recently started playing it and with Cele gear it's a nice little bump to your team's damage

[Tom.8029]

I just wanted to point out that some bosses have proximity tank. So you can use toughness on those and not worry as the boss will attack the closest person to them either during the fight or at the start. Some examples are Old Lion’s Court, and Qadim 1.  And the first person who enters the room at Mathias is the target of his projectile attack.  And there are others as well. 

Edited February 7 by Tom.8029

[Hibuki Kye Menio.4723]

23 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

It's not the case, but it is worth noting that 3000 power versus 1500 condition damage probably is indicative of a condition build. Partly this is because condition damage starts at 0, while a level 80 character has a certain baseline level of power that is the equivalent of zero condition damage: I don't know off the top of my head what precisely that is, but it does mean that you can't compare power and condition damage numbers directly. Second, power builds usually also rely on precision and ferocity to get crit damage up: while increasing power alone will always increase your power damage, it won't compare to having those additional multipliers.

  ...

That's SUPER helpful! I wasn't thinking that maybe the starting points had an effect like that; it totally skipped my mind. That's also a very apt description of the "power boss" thing, thank you! No one's really explained that to me before... so it's more about uptime and seeing the stacks to their completion, and if I have to divide my attention or not. I've been doing my research again to see if I can make anything work out and I've been thinking that maybe I should just scrap this build as the group content build and just enjoy it as a worldly build instead. I'll drop it here for all to see but I've been wondering if a Catalyst would be better?

I've been thinking that this would be ok for a build? I've fixed the 100% Condi time things, I've managed to boost both Power and Condi to even greater heights with the Catalyst stacks. For those that see, is this better??
Catalyst Build:  http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGRAIlZwuYasKGJOqPmRXA-DSRYmRBWOszoDJQIKAF+LgFePrgKA-e

[Hibuki Kye Menio.4723]

8 hours ago, Seon.8402 said:

I've had the same kinda feel where I don't just want to copy/paste a build and memorize a rotation. I like to mess around a bit and try out more uncommon things, as there are a lot of traits, utility skills that are often unused in the meta builds (which does makes sense, as they tend to focus on maximizing damage). For me it's more interesting to be able to trade a bit of damage for some type of utility to be used reactively to help the team, even if I'm playing a DPS or boon DPS. But as others said there is a reason certain builds are common, especially in the context of instanced content where players will specialize in roles.

   ....

I know, right!? I think you managed to word it better your way too. The thing I grind against the most is not understanding the "how it works" part. I'm okay with being slightly less optimized for enjoyment's sake, like I tend to avoid targeted abilities just because my brain can't handle having to break focus and let go of the camera to aim. (I hold right click a lot, it's an issue, I know....) I just want to be good enough to not catch hell for it, is all. Good to see another healing connoisseur! 

[Chyro.1462]

On the catalyst build, the main thing that sticks out to me is the Ritualist gear and Blinding Ashes in the fire traitline and that you're taking Spectacular Sphere yet no Sphere Specialist. It kinda makes it seem like you're undecided wether you want to be a dps or a boon dps. Cause you have a bit of boon duration from Ritualist gear (and vitality) over pure dps stats, yet not really enough for a boon dps - and Spectacular Sphere is for boons, yet not enough without Sphere Specialist (you'd want 100% quickness uptime as a boon dps). Or as a non-boon dps, you wouldn't take Spectacular Sphere but probably Evasive Empowerment or Empowering Auras for 15% attributes / 10% dmg respectively. Blinding Ashes serves no purpose for a dps build (unless you're concerned for your own survival, which shouldn't be your concern in group content) - it's more a trait for PvP/WvW or solo gameplay if you lack survivability.

[Zohane.7208]

On 2/6/2024 at 7:13 PM, Hibuki Kye Menio.4723 said:

Thanks, this is very helpful as an alternative. I'm just going to lament going back to being one-shot by most stuff. Hopefully the VIT will be enough for that not to be the case. 👍

In group content you won't get oneshot as much as you think, as long as you know the encounter well enough to avoid the earth-shattering mistakes. The healers usually do an excellent job at keeping people alive - that is, after all, one of their main tasks 🙂

[Nash.2681]

On 2/6/2024 at 9:53 AM, soulknight.9620 said:

Im not gonna sugar coat it: there is only one way you can avoid "player hate" - "go meta or go home". Sure you can play an offmeta build, sure you can experiment and find a better build that suits your playstyle, sure you can find a "mash your keyboard" build and get 5-10% less dps than meta build (but way more easier build). But overall players (at least the elitist part of gw community) will hate you for this. Its the flaw of gw2 game desing that led to this situation. Classes are balanced of meta builds and SC benches and thats it. There is literary 0 chance you will figure a build yourself that works "better" than meta builds cause devs are balancing off SC benches. And even if you suddenly do find such a build, you will get nerfed either directly or as a "collateral damage nerf". 

Or you can just be like many of us here and ignore meta builds, SC and elitist attitude. Get a decent LI/buttonmash build and adjust it for your needs and have fun, while ignoring all of the "hate" that will be coming your way. 

While I strongly disagree with all the underlying "elitists" nonsense build on unfounded prejudices, I second the few objective and correct statements. You don't have to run a meta build to be successfull, performing 5-10% below them but with a build you feel confident with and get a long well, is totally fine and no one will ever attack you for that (unless you apply for a top hardcore raiding guild aiming for record runs...).

But I'd like to add- meta (and LI) builds are there for a reason. And while I admire OP's dedication, it's highly unlikely at this point to reinvent the wheel. The info is all out there and it's nothing wrong in using it. And by "using it" I don't mean blindly copy&pasting, but using it as a starting point, understand why certain traits, skills and gear choices are made and then adjust it to ones own preferences. Also it's often totally fine to stick with something you figured out to work well, even though some updates change things in the meantime. For example- I still refuse to buy SotO, so I don't have access to some relics and weapon choices. But I still play my Reaper the "old" way with a staff in the 2nd weapon slot and guess what- works perfectly fine and I still do better than most other Reapers I meet. And why? The build fits to my playstyle, I practiced it and I know how to adjust it for certain situations. Or if there's a need for an aDPS, I still dust of my Condi-Alac-Tempest running a ~1 year old build with mainhand scepter instead of dagger. And you can guess it- absolutely no issues with the squads or the content since I know the build, what it does and how it works and just do what I'm supposed to do.

[Ephurum.2965]

First off, OP, you've done a really great job and takin' the info people put forth and actually listening to it and questioning it, which is something that's lacking on a lot of MMO forums.

There's a thin line of "meta" builds and their importance. But we also, as players, need to remember that having fun is important when you're spending time on a video game. I used a hammer on guardian since the game launched, cause I really kittening love hammers in games. But I also needed to make sure that my damage stayed within' a threshold that I wasn't dragging down "high - end" content and make someone else's job harder. I've been "maining" ele for about 2 and a half years now and have had a wonderful time. I think your choice of reading, understanding, and experimenting is important, as there are a lot of people who grab meta builds without understanding why. There are a couple of things in your opening paragraph that others have addressed, and I may hit them in this as well, so sorry in advance :P

People have pointed out that in terms of open world (OW) your build will be fine. And that's 100% true. You kill things, you don't die. You also play the game how you want to play it, which is very important. When you get to that "high-end" content is where this comes into question. People have pointed out that toughness can drag aggro from certain mechanics (especially in raids) and that can be hard to fight against. Also, the question that occurs is what does that extra toughness bring? We're eles. We're squishy as kitten. So the extra vitality and tough can be very helpful in openworld to survive a little longer, I get it. And I strongly believe in the model of you do more damage alive than in the downed/defeated stated, lol.. I run full Mara/dragons in my open world build because it's just more enjoyable to me.

When you have that full group/squad, that toughness drops off. It doesn't bring enough extra to the table over everything else. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGgAgilZwuYLsGGJOqOmtLA-DSRYLB5ZGNchnRCSgOUAK8YAL8+bBVA-e is a build I threw together that, is close to "meta" but also brings some more survivability to the playing field to be more enjoyable in high-end content. The difference between your previous build and this one is about 100 condi damage, which you get from the toughness trait, but a drop of almost 1100 power. Almost every ability that applies conditions does power damage of some sort. So having extra damage (even if you're not critting hard) still adds more to the end game. You've also brough up the crit chance. Crit chance doesn nothing for flat condi damage. BUT, there are many traits/sigils that work off of criting to apply something. Burning Precision works like this in the fire tree. The condi duration is also super important. Case in point, in the build you originally linked, and the build above, even though you have more condi damage, the burning from the build I linked above will end up doing more burning damage because it lasts longer. 

The burning causes blind trait (Blinding Ashes) can work in OW, it just adds more survivability. But anything with a defiance bar won't be affected by blinding. So any high-end combat will find that trait worthless. Persisting Flame's Damage increase is only strike damage, but the longer lasting burning fields increases burning ticks, as well as the extra strike damage is, no matter what, an extra damage increase. Pyromancer's Puissance is a fine trait as well, because stacking might as a tempest isn't hard, and the explosions from switching out of fire does apply some burning.

Also, if you have the ritualist gear, you can some pieces of that on for a solid condi-alac build from tempest that can also be super enjoyable.

I want you to have fun. The way you want to do it. We're not gonna talk about "just Dodge" and there does need to be a justification for people playing the weapons/items they want as long as they're competent with them. I think that's the hard part that a lot of people forget when playing this game. It is a fluffin' game, lol. I hope you find your fun and enjoy the game how you want to!

[Hibuki Kye Menio.4723]

On 2/9/2024 at 10:29 AM, Ephurum.2965 said:

First off, OP, you've done a really great job and takin' the info people put forth and actually listening to it and questioning it, which is something that's lacking on a lot of MMO forums.

 ....

Yeah, I don't want to just deny the facts in front of me for some flimsy pride. Feels too much like losing the plot entirely then, I think I've managed to cobble together some builds separate for group/ vs solo ventures. I at least *think* I've come to understand the finer points of Power and Condi -- being that.... insert "Both? Both. Both is Good." El Dorado meme here. I'm gonna get back into it all now and get back to trying out this Catalyst in the testing-grounds and making some of the mentioned tweeks above. Thanks to EVERYONE for being both honest and patient with me lack of expertise on the subject!

Edited February 10 by Hibuki Kye Menio.4723