How to fix celestial, boons and minstrel very easily

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

26 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

No matter how elaborate the actual math in the background looks like, it's the same for all gear. Stats don't change the formulas, only the numbers. And there is no situation where having additional healing or boons or condis for free is going to be a detriment.

That’s incorrect. That’s like for example saying AOE skills are always superior to single target skills. just because skill A has 5x more potential to do damage than skill B since it only hits 1x.

That’s why we don’t have all skills in the game doing the same exact damage on their skills: it depends on the functions those skills have.

in that same token just cause a stat combo has 5x more stats (distributed across different stats) doesn’t make it superior to another that has 3x stat combo concentrated on one or two stats 

builds are amalgamations of many functions being exploited in conjunction, including the limitation of what skills you can actually bring in your build

Edited March 5 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Zyreva.1078]

21 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

That’s incorrect. That’s like for example saying AOE skills are always superior to single target skills. just because skill A has 5x more potential to do damage than skill B since it only hits 1x.

->

32 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

What does have an impact on formulas is context tho. Which you keep ignoring ->

It's like me saying aoe skills are generally better when multiple targets are present and you disagree because 1vs1 exist.

Edited March 5 by Zyreva.1078

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

2 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

->

It's like me saying aoe skills are generally better when multiple targets are present and you disagree because 1vs1 exist.

Uh, ya bro that is the point. Aoe skills are not generally better because there exists places where aoe is not better (like in a 1v1). You wouldn’t take a whole bunch of AOE to a 1v1 duel right…

same reason you don’t bring celestial on every build in the game cause celestial isn’t better than other stat combos not for the reason of it having more total stats…hence why 3 stat and 4 stat combos are BIS on some builds not celestial.

Edited March 6 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Zyreva.1078]

QED

Edited March 6 by Zyreva.1078

[TheGrimm.5624]

Sorry all the confused peeps. I run a range of builds and the number of times I have been told I run build x while on build y or a or z. Is actually quite funny. I think the funniest I have seen is I should run less zerg builds while jumped exiting spawn and killing gankers waiting at a side exit. Zerg is love, Zerg is life after all lol. Again, choose your role, choose your goal, choose your class/elite, then find the gear set that meets those ends.

Sorry serve mates, I should zerg less. I apologize to being afk while our masses smote those in front of us as we only stomp all that defy our will and crush the other side. May they Rue the day!

btw, who uses rue the day in 2024?

[TheGrimm.5624]

14 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Either i can't write or you can't read ... I'll leave it at that, pointless to continue like that.

If i say 1+1=2, it remains true, even if you don't agree. Basic math isn't really something to argue about.

I already said I accept we can disagree and had left it at that.

[TheGrimm.5624]

12 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

I'll ask you the same question i have already asked someone else in this thread: Do you think mara gear would be balanced, if it received a 30% buff? And what about a 100% buff? Still balanced?

 

 

Oh hai! lol! And as I told you boosting Mara on a full condi build does nothing. You asked, I answered. What you didn't ask, or didn't look into was did I ask that Cele needed boosts. To save you the research, no. 

[TheGrimm.5624]

We do have players that may just read the forums and not reply. I would assume nothing. Use a build editor, consider your play style, consider your connection speed, your group comp, your role and goal, your reaction time when considering a build. To be fair to Zyreva they are coming at this from a roamer perspective and other replies, mine included are not. So before you consider one setup or another consider those factors in your choice before spending resources or coin and materials in your build outs. Just a heads up from someone that did not and wasted resources on builds that seemed like they would fit and meet a role.

[schloumou.3982]

2 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

To be fair to Zyreva they are coming at this from a roamer perspective and other replies, mine included are not.

Dude why do you spam this topic if you dont even small scale? Cele has no impact on your game experience with or without the buff...

Edited March 6 by schloumou.3982

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

8 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

QED

Right…

6 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

To be fair to Zyreva they are coming at this from a roamer perspective

This has nothing to do with zerg vs roaming (he just kinda made it seem like it is because he couldn’t form an explanation about the actual point). I play all of these things…and the thread is generally about stats and their distribution which is independent of any particular mode or method of play style.

im also not defending celestial either…or ministrel. I actually don’t care if these stats exist or not. I’m just disassembling someone’s baseless, false argument. If anything he said was true we’d all be running celestials right now everywhere. Celestial has in fact the most stat total in the game (5719 stats) by his “math” we should all be bringing it, playing it on every build and it should be BIS on everything…he can’t explain why that’s not true in any proper way.

In other words sorry but I don’t need to be one of these folks that have to sympathize with the plight of the pitch fork mob just cause their message is relatable…Using math as a way to prove things is a universal language intended to actually verify claims made by one another. That’s part of what it is to do math even…to verify ones own claims,  making sure conjecture is actually correct, and understanding how it’s being used (whether something applies or doesn’t apply to something) so one doesn’t disillusion themselves about the things they want to talk about.

Edited March 6 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[schloumou.3982]

6 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

This has nothing to do with zerg vs roaming. I play all of these things…and the thread is generally about stats and their distribution which is independent of any particular mode or method of play style.

 

10 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

If anything he said was true we’d all be running celestials right now everywhere.

I dont understand how those statements are not contradicting. Of cause stat distribution affects different modes/playstyles in a separat way and must be discussed in the context of its environment.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

23 minutes ago, schloumou.3982 said:

 

I dont understand how those statements are not contradicting. Of cause stat distribution affects different modes/playstyles in a separat way and must be discussed in the context of its environment.

Stats, and their distribution do not vary when you change builds, playstyles, or game mode right? The way power or precision works here in zerg, works the same as power and precision in a 1v1, and the same as PVP, and the same as build X or build Y. That's what it means for stats and their distribution to be independent of those things, hence why if you make a claim about stats like "more stats = better", then that claim should apply to all those different things, since it does not change.

When you say something A is "independent" of something else B, C and D, it means the existence of A does not change with respect to B, C or D. As i said, stats and their distributions dont change from one mode or gameplay style to another...power works the same here, as it does everywhere else in the game.

I sure hope you are not trying to make the claim that stats on gear or the way they work magically change in roaming than to a zerg...

Edited March 6 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[schloumou.3982]

1 hour ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Stats, and their distribution do not vary when you change builds, playstyles, or game mode right? The way power or precision works here in zerg, works the same as power and precision in a 1v1, and the same as PVP, and the same as build X or build Y. That's what it means for stats and their distribution to be independent of those things, hence why if you make a claim about stats like "more stats = better", then that claim should apply to all those different things, since it does not change.

When you say something A is "independent" of something else B, C and D, it means the existence of A does not change with respect to B, C or D. As i said, stats and their distributions dont change from one mode or gameplay style to another...power works the same here, as it does everywhere else in the game.

I sure hope you are not trying to make the claim that stats on gear or the way they work magically change in roaming than to a zerg...

No offense but this has weird straw man vibes. I mean nobody claimed stats would work different on a mechanical level. They just dont exist in a vacuum and are affected by many modifiers that are heavily dependent on the mode/playstyle. There are ways to reduce the value of a stat like condition duration in zerg play that simply dont exist in a 1v1 scenario for example. So the stat doesnt need to magicaly work differnt to lose all its viability in another game environment.

[Nugatory.8920]

Maybe the simpler solution would be to remove concentration and expertise from the game entirely and then reevaluate boon and condition strengths from there forward.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

29 minutes ago, schloumou.3982 said:

They just dont exist in a vacuum and are affected by many modifiers that are heavily dependent on the mode/playstyle. 

That's exactly what my argument is about. You are just confused on what "Independent of something" means. You should perhaps read more carefully all that has been written thus far.

The argument from Zyvera, is that the celestial stat set is optimal just because it has the most total stats (It has 5721 total stats, where others sit around 3000 - 4000)...and can be summarized as "most stats = optimal". If that argument was true, then it would mean that everyone everywhere would be running celestial gear, which we know is not true. People still run 3 stat combinations and 4 stat combinations, which have drastically less stats.

I explain that the reason why, is because trait choices, skill choices, etc...have non-trivial relationships to all the other elements in the game and the "moar stats = better" argument is too trivial of a way to describe the way stats interact with other things.

If you didn't understand this from reading my previous comments then you need to re-read them again and you'll find that your literately agreeing with what i am saying, and that what you are confused on seems to me, just that you don't know what is meant by "independence" that stats or stat distribution don't magically change from one scale to another.  Stats still behave the same way in all of these scenarios whether thats 1v1, small scale or large scale so that argument "moar stats = better" is invalid, since we don't see celestial on every build...optimal build composition in zerg runs 3 stat and 4 stat...and then there's plenty of builds (unrelated to game mode, or playstyle) that simply don't run celestial cause its not useful for them to do so...let alone optimal.

Edited March 6 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

22 hours ago, Nugatory.8920 said:

So what would you're solution be to builds that can abuse celestial? Go through each build skill by skill and trait by trait trying to balance them for all scales of combat, whilst maintaining their viability with three and four stat combos, but reducing their strength with Celestial?

Seems a convoluted solution to me, when tackling the root cause of the problem - celestial stats - would be much simpler.

You asked me this question way earlier, so it's fair to answer:

There's many different ways you can deal with this problem. But "solving" the actual problem is really the key thing. You could just nuke from orbit these two stat combinations right...but does that actually "solve" anything or does it just kick the can down the road. My own perspective is that this just kicks the can down the road...doesn't solve anything, and more than likely just makes everything worse.

If you look at what I wrote in these comments about the theory-craft behind why certain things get picked, for builds that are used, you find that the common thread isn't what stats they pick. Reducing concentration on minstrel gear for instance, will basically do nothing with regards to how hard it is to kill zergs...Because if it wasn't minstrels it would be Clerics, than Magi's then whatever else is going to maximize outgoing healing %, and group support for a healer. Back in the day, pog champ healers would not even run minstrels, because taking any kind of self-survivability when that survivability could have been exchanged for more group support, is basically a crutch or a training wheel. This philosophy is the same when it comes to berserker classes. Taking any kind of sub berserker stat combo with the intention of self-surviability, reduces your damage output and therefor usefulness to the zerg as a whole. Thus going full balls-to-the-wall is the most useful you can be to your group, and then it just becomes L2dodge and follow tag basically.

I should also mention that, concentration was not that big of a deal in zerg back in the day, because it was assumed that your boons would be stripped and converted near immediately. It is the same reasoning why you wouldn't go full expertise in a zerg either...because your Condi's get cleansed near instantly and you are better off straight up stacking damage, as expertise becomes a wasted stat.

With all of the strips and conversions gone, concentration has gained somewhat more value (expertise in contrast has not). But even then, the extra concentration doesn't mean much because if there are no strips to worry about, then your boons are gonna hit duration cap even if you had no concentration. As the mantra goes : Wasted stats is detriment and you need to pile on more useful stats if you can. everything else is just a treat.

Anyway...that's what i really think is the problem : The lack of options for true counterplay to certain strategies...and this is a matter of how these game elements are intrinsically designed. It's not hard to just create skills that offer counterplay to such playstyles but Anet has been too busy deleting and nerfing everything in the game, rather than actually designing it, which is why all their problems are just cans they've kicked down the road since 2018. 

 

Edited March 6 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Nugatory.8920]

 

1 hour ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

That's exactly what my argument is about. You are just confused on what "Independent of something" means. You should perhaps read more carefully all that has been written thus far.

The argument from Zyvera, is that the celestial stat set is optimal just because it has the most total stats (It has 5721 total stats, where others sit around 3000 - 4000)...and can be summarized as "most stats = optimal". If that argument was true, then it would mean that everyone everywhere would be running celestial gear, which we know is not true. People still run 3 stat combinations and 4 stat combinations, which have drastically less stats.

I explain that the reason why, is because trait choices, skill choices, etc...have non-trivial relationships to all the other elements in the game and the "moar stats = better" argument is too trivial of a way to describe the way stats interact with other things.

If you didn't understand this from reading my previous comments then you need to re-read them again and you'll find that your literately agreeing with what i am saying, and that what you are confused on seems to me, just that you don't know what is meant by "independence" that stats or stat distribution don't magically change from one scale to another.  Stats still behave the same way in all of these scenarios whether thats 1v1, small scale or large scale so that argument "moar stats = better" is invalid, since we don't see celestial on every build...optimal build composition in zerg runs 3 stat and 4 stat...and then there's plenty of builds (unrelated to game mode, or playstyle) that simply don't run celestial cause its not useful for them to do so...let alone optimal.

You seem to be getting frustrated that people aren't getting the point you're trying to make. But to be polite your responses so far have been a bit muddled. Please don't take this as a personal attack; like you, I often struggle to make my points clearly.

As far as I can tell the point you are trying to make is: Cele having more stats isn't over powered because it's not the strongest choice in small and large scenarios.

That might be the case, perhaps it would be worthy of a thread of its own to discuss the topic.

This particular thread was about fixing Cele and Ministrel. I can't read minds but I imagine the original poster chose those two because of their relative strengths and prevalence in the respective types of WvW gameplay where many believe they overperfom.

I mean, I can't imagine anybody making the argument that Minstrel should be addressed because of its strengths in 1v1s. However, the argument that Ministrel should be addressed because of its overprevelance in zerg gameplay, is in my opinion a valid one. A similar argument can be made for Cele, although it doesn't see much play in zergs, it's too oppressive in small-scale and should be addressed.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

20 minutes ago, Nugatory.8920 said:

You seem to be getting frustrated that people aren't getting the point you're trying to make. But to be polite your responses so far have been a bit muddled. Please don't take this as a personal attack; like you, I often struggle to make my points clearly.

As far as I can tell the point you are trying to make is: Cele having more stats isn't over powered because it's not the strongest choice in small and large scenarios.

No not really the point. It has nothing to do specifically with small or large scales.

The point is cele "having the most stats makes it the best" is not a valid argument, because the games elements interact with each other non-trivially. Scale is one such way in which it is non-trivial...but it applies to builds and how people can choose their skills and traits...and what those skills and traits can do. Taking Celestials makes you a jack of all trades, but master of none. If your weapons only do power damage...then your condi stats that are upped in celestial are basically wasted...if you have to take a whole traitline just to make healing do something for you, than you had to give up a traitline that would have given you more power damage. 

Not all builds in this game, can take advantage of these features. It's just an obvious theory crafting fact that "throwing celestial on it" is not an optimal thing to do in most builds, because builds often can't do all 7 or 8 things that a celestial build demands out of it. 

It's really not that hard to understand that more stats don't always translate into more optimal. The problem that I have really...is that people don't get such a simple topic...how much more simpler can I word it? People are repeating the same exact things I said just a few comments earlier (almost word for word)...which is wild to me ... Just read more carefully is all I can say. Stats don't change behavior when you go from one scale to another (they dont change behaviour at all actually 🤓)....that's just a 12 year old fact that shouldn't even need to be said and yet that is the argument some people want to have about stats in this game its kind of ridiculous to me. 

Quote

 

This particular thread was about fixing Cele and Ministrel. I can't read minds but I imagine the original poster chose those two because of their relative strengths and prevalence in the respective types of WvW gameplay where many believe they overperfom.

I mean, I can't imagine anybody making the argument that Minstrel should be addressed because of its strengths in 1v1s. However, the argument that Ministrel should be addressed because of its overprevelance in zerg gameplay, is in my opinion a valid one. A similar argument can be made for Cele, although it doesn't see much play in zergs, it's too oppressive in small-scale and should be addressed.

 

About this, I just left a comment above, answering a question you asked me yesterday, that basically addresses this point you made as well. 

Minstrel gear is not prevalent due to concentration. If that were the case, everyone would be running Harrier gear in Zerg...obviously thats not the case so you have to think about why that is. the comment i left above, explains pretty much exactly why that is. 

Edited March 6 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Nugatory.8920]

50 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

You asked me this question way earlier, so it's fair to answer:

There's many different ways you can deal with this problem. But "solving" the actual problem is really the key thing. You could just nuke from orbit these two stat combinations right...but does that actually "solve" anything or does it just kick the can down the road. My own perspective is that this just kicks the can down the road...doesn't solve anything, and more than likely just makes everything worse.

If you look at what I wrote in these comments about the theory-craft behind why certain things get picked, for builds that are used, you find that the common thread isn't what stats they pick. Reducing concentration on minstrel gear for instance, will basically do nothing with regards to how hard it is to kill zergs...Because if it wasn't minstrels it would be Clerics, than Magi's then whatever else is going to maximize outgoing healing %, and group support for a healer. Back in the day, pog champ healers would not even run minstrels, because taking any kind of self-survivability when that survivability could have been exchanged for more group support, is basically a crutch or a training wheel. This philosophy is the same when it comes to berserker classes. Taking any kind of sub berserker stat combo with the intention of self-surviability, reduces your damage output and therefor usefulness to the zerg as a whole. Thus going full balls-to-the-wall is the most useful you can be to your group, and then it just becomes L2dodge and follow tag basically.

I should also mention that, concentration was not that big of a deal in zerg back in the day, because it was assumed that your boons would be stripped and converted near immediately. It is the same reasoning why you wouldn't go full expertise in a zerg either...because your Condi's get cleansed near instantly and you are better off straight up stacking damage, as expertise becomes a wasted stat.

With all of the strips and conversions gone, concentration has gained somewhat more value (expertise in contrast has not). But even then, the extra concentration doesn't mean much because if there are no strips to worry about, then your boons are gonna hit duration cap even if you had no concentration. As the mantra goes : Wasted stats is detriment and you need to pile on more useful stats if you can. everything else is just a treat.

Anyway...that's what i really think is the problem : The lack of options for true counterplay to certain strategies...and this is a matter of how these game elements are intrinsically designed. It's not hard to just create skills that offer counterplay to such playstyles but Anet has been too busy deleting and nerfing everything in the game, rather than actually designing it, which is why all their problems are just cans they've kicked down the road since 2018. 

 

In my opinion this is a fair post that adresses the topic and after reading it I tend to agree with it for the most part.

 

35 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

No not really the point. It has nothing to do specifically with small or large scales.

The point is cele "having the most stats makes it the best" is not a valid argument, because the games elements interact with each other non-trivially. Scale is one such way in which it is non-trivial...but it applies to builds and how people can choose their skills and traits...and what those skills and traits can do. Taking Celestials makes you a jack of all trades, but master of none. If your weapons only do power damage...then your condi stats that are upped in celestial are basically wasted...if you have to take a whole traitline just to make healing do something for you, than you had to give up a traitline that would have given you more power damage. 

Not all builds in this game, can take advantage of these features. It's just an obvious theory crafting fact that "throwing celestial on it" is not an optimal thing to do in most builds, because builds often can't do all 7 or 8 things that a celestial build demands out of it. 

It's really not that hard to understand that more stats don't always translate into more optimal. The problem that I have really...is that people don't get such a simple topic...how much more simpler can I word it? People are repeating the same exact things I said just a few comments earlier (almost word for word)...which is wild to me ... Just read more carefully is all I can say. Stats don't change behavior when you go from one scale to another (they dont change behaviour at all actually 🤓)....that's just a 12 year old fact that shouldn't even need to be said and yet that is the argument some people want to have about stats in this game its kind of ridiculous to me. 

About this, I just left a comment above, answering a question you asked me yesterday, that basically addresses this point you made as well. 

Minstrel gear is not prevalent due to concentration. If that were the case, everyone would be running Harrier gear in Zerg...obviously thats not the case so you have to think about why that is. the comment i left above, explains pretty much exactly why that is. 

This one not so much. It's rambling and for the most part off topic. However, you do redeem it in the end by referencing the superior comment you made, that I quoted initially.

Edited March 6 by Nugatory.8920

[schloumou.3982]

3 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

...and then there's plenty of builds (unrelated to game mode, or playstyle) that simply don't run celestial cause its not useful for them to do so...let alone optimal.

There are very few niche situations where non cele builds work in roaming that have nothing to do with the way stats are distributed. When a matchup/encounter favors you so much that defense stats become just irrelevant. In every other situation you are not playing an optimal build if you are not playing a cele build. Maybe my english is to bad to get the meaning of unrelated but in my understanding the exact opposite is true.

 

3 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Not all builds in this game, can take advantage of these features. It's just an obvious theory crafting fact that "throwing celestial on it" is not an optimal thing to do in most builds, because builds often can't do all 7 or 8 things that a celestial build demands out of it. 

It's really not that hard to understand that more stats don't always translate into more optimal. The problem that I have really...is that people don't get such a simple topic...

I think most people here understand that it only makes sense to compare optimal cele vs optimal x builds. Why would you compare bad builds to good ones as baseline to analyse balance of different stat distributions?

Edited March 6 by schloumou.3982

[TheGrimm.5624]

20 hours ago, schloumou.3982 said:

Dude why do you spam this topic if you dont even small scale? Cele has no impact on your game experience with or without the buff...

I don't small scale........?

Sorry forum friends. Hi, I am Grimm, I am an addicted to zerging. I tag and bring the hammers of the zerg down and crush all those that have less than us. We will rise, we will kill, we will dominate all those that can not bring those numbers to bear against us! Prepare to rule them all!

To fellow Warhammer players, Choppa here.

Kitten, you got me, I never go solo, how would anyone do that, I mean facing more than one!? How is that possible!? That insane. Zerg is love, zerg is life afterall! Yes?

[TheGrimm.5624]

21 hours ago, schloumou.3982 said:

Dude why do you spam this topic if you dont even small scale? Cele has no impact on your game experience with or without the buff...

Anytime you want to 2 v X, come visit SBI and I can grant you glorious death. I am quite the fan of the Han Solo concept of attacking lol. Every time it works it makes my guildmates lol the harder. 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

18 hours ago, schloumou.3982 said:

I think most people here understand that it only makes sense to compare optimal cele vs optimal x builds. Why would you compare bad builds to good ones as baseline to analyse balance of different stat distributions?

I used zerg meta builds as an example: If Celestials is better than 3 or 4 stat by virtue of total stat count alone, then celestials should also logically be meta in Zerg play, but it is not. Thus that argument is invalid.

Quote

There are very few niche situations where non cele builds work in roaming that have nothing to do with the way stats are distributed. When a matchup/encounter favors you so much that defense stats become just irrelevant. In every other situation you are not playing an optimal build if you are not playing a cele build. Maybe my english is to bad to get the meaning of unrelated but in my understanding the exact opposite is true.

Nope you have this all wrong. Celestial builds require the theory-craft to cross a certain barrier/threshold in order to make those builds useful. Those barriers include whether they can maintain certain boons, reach a certain amount of critical strike chance with traits, and then be able to use weapons, skills and traits that don't dilute themselves so much to the point of uselessness.

Some builds have this property...where they are able to overcome those barriers. Many do not. Some classes need to use two trait-lines just to be functional...while others are just effortlessly functioning by virtue of how they've been designed, and what choices they can make with their traits and skills. But the pitch fork in people's eyes blinds them in seeing that the deeper problems in this game are and that they are not going to be solved with nerf after nerf after nerf to things that aren't even the actual problem.

Btw i'm not even arguing against a celestial stat or ministrel nerf. go head. i just don't think it will really solve any actual problems. 

It's funny cause yesterday after this conversation, went ZvZing and decided to just drop minstrel and run clerics on my druid. Was fun, many bags...bigger healing, less self-crutching, feels good. 

Edited March 7 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[schloumou.3982]

2 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

I used zerg meta builds as an example: If Celestials is better than 3 or 4 stat by virtue of total stat count alone, then celestials should also logically be meta in Zerg play, but it is not. Thus that argument is invalid.

Why strow man again? Nobody claimes you could slap cele on every build in every scenario and and be OP. And for reasons that have been explained over and over you can not take zerg builds as a metric to measure balance of problamatic small scale interactions. Especially when you make statements like "there are plenty of  non cele roaming builds, so cele cant be the problem" what ever that is supposed to proof. I mean yeah sure, they all suck compared to good cele builds but they do exist.

3 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Nope you have this all wrong. Celestial builds require the theory-craft to cross a certain barrier/threshold in order to make those builds useful. Those barriers include whether they can maintain certain boons, reach a certain amount of critical strike chance with traits, and then be able to use weapons, skills and traits that don't dilute themselves so much to the point of uselessness.

Some builds have this property...where they are able to overcome those barriers. Many do not. Some classes need to use two trait-lines just to be functional...while others are just effortlessly functioning by virtue of how they've been designed, and what choices they can make with their traits and skills. But the pitch fork in people's eyes blinds them in seeing that the deeper problems in this game are and that they are not going to be solved with nerf after nerf after nerf to things that aren't even the actual problem.

Btw i'm not even arguing against a celestial stat or ministrel nerf. go head. i just don't think it will really solve any actual problems. 

It's funny cause yesterday after this conversation, went ZvZing and decided to just drop minstrel and run clerics on my druid. Was fun, many bags...bigger healing, less self-crutching, feels good. 

I dont what to be ignorant or something but what you wrote here has nothing to do with the things i said. And even the things you are arguing here about are not controversial for the most part. Just a few post before i said that cele is not the root cause of problems but a more realistic balance approach than altering skills/traits of every spec to give them access to the right amount of boon rip to battle the spam given the limited resources Anet uses on this matter. Zyreva has been saying exactly that for years.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

53 minutes ago, schloumou.3982 said:

Why strow man again? Nobody claimes you could slap cele on every build in every scenario and and be OP. And for reasons that have been explained over and over you can not take zerg builds as a metric to measure balance of problamatic small scale interactions. Especially when you make statements like "there are plenty of  non cele roaming builds, so cele cant be the problem" what ever that is supposed to proof. I mean yeah sure, they all suck compared to good cele builds but they do exist.

I dont what to be ignorant or something but what you wrote here has nothing to do with the things i said. And even the things you are arguing here about are not controversial for the most part. Just a few post before i said that cele is not the root cause of problems but a more realistic balance approach than altering skills/traits of every spec to give them access to the right amount of boon rip to battle the spam given the limited resources Anet uses on this matter. Zyreva has been saying exactly that for years.

I don't know what Zyvera has said for years...but on the previous page, I asked him what his argument was...which was mathematical in nature and I quote from him:

"Math disagrees.

If x + y + z < a + b + c + d + e = true then a + b + c + d + e + f + g + h + i < x+ y + z is impossible to be also true, since we don't have negative stats...

...Was in another thread a while ago - basically i showed that if 2 rangers with the exact same build except gear hit each other with the exact same power only longbow skills - zerk dies before cele."

This mathematical argument is the statement that because Celestial has more stats in total, it is going to be better than 3 stat and 4 stat combos. 

My counter argument is that this model is too trivial of a way to model the game, which requires understanding all these different factors since stat contribution contributes to the games elements in a non-trivial way. I used the differences in scale as one (of many) examples of a different factor that makes the equation he presented as not true (otherwise we would see celestials as meta in zerg gameplay, and everywhere else for that matter) This is exactly my argument which you just reiterated in your quote-block...and i'll quote you again : 

Just a few post before i said that cele is not the root cause of problems but a more realistic balance approach than altering skills/traits of every spec to give them access to the right amount of boon rip to battle the spam given the limited resources Anet uses on this matter.

Again this is what my argument has been about over the past two pages...and why i said to you earlier that you are agreeing with me and you seemed to just have a misunderstanding about what i said at some point (in particular the definition of what "independence" means in the context of that post)