How to fix celestial, boons and minstrel very easily

[Dawdler.8521]

59 minutes ago, graishak.5406 said:

if concentration was nerfed, i guess people would just swap to runes with boon duration

Which is why everything just leads back to one conclusion, every single time - delete concentration (and things in similar style, yes that includes expertise). 

When a skill has been balanced to have 10s cd and 5s boon duration - that's why it's on 10s cd, that's why it has a 5s boon duration, it is what it is - how the kitten are you supposed to uphold that balance if the boon can last 5s OR 6s OR 7s OR 8s OR 8s OR 10s? Because there will be people that go omg this skill is super op, perma boon, need more cd! and then you raise it to 20s cd instead and people go omg this skill is useless, 20s cd and it only have 5s duration you overnerfed it! and then it'll just bounce between random changes to try to fix it until it's "redesigned" and we have a 50/50 chance of it being about as bad or worse.

And people on the forums will still cheer on having boon duration.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

13 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Just because you are playing bad builds doesn't mean cele isn't miles better than those stats - for both druid and untamed.

Why even pad your post count to reply to me with this utter ignorance? 😂

No, actually you know what--please show me your 'good' roaming condi druid build using cele stats.  

 

[Zyreva.1078]

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?POABcix/lZw8YbMG2JeST2t7S+WaA-D2IY1onvEkfAA-w

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 2/26/2024 at 2:55 PM, Zyreva.1078 said:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?POABcix/lZw8YbMG2JeST2t7S+WaA-D2IY1onvEkfAA-w

I would say I said 'good' but that is somewhat mean spirited--so will just leave it at that's not my cup of tea. 

Mostly because no CC at all on the weapon set and it's all projectile--I also don't see how that is any better than just going straight condi; just swap sword out for MH dagger (then you can run either shared anguish or ambidexterity as you'd have enough poison gen with dagger on each set).

Anyway.    

[Yaki.9563]

On 2/23/2024 at 10:34 PM, Riba.3271 said:

Current boon duration is 71.9% and concentration 703. Change in boon duration will be 703/15-703/25 = 18.7 %. So final boon duration will be 53.2%. What does this mean to total boon duration necessary to make up for it:

18.7 % * 25 concentration/% =  467.5 concentration

703 concentration is only 703/15 = 46.9% boon duration as it is. It's already less than your "nerfed" boon duration.. Why aren't you targeting the boon duration from runes and sigils and food instead? Those are overtuned anyway, especially the runes.

[Riba.3271]

5 hours ago, Yaki.9563 said:

On 2/24/2024 at 9:34 AM, Riba.3271 said:

 

703 concentration is only 703/15 = 46.9% boon duration as it is. It's already less than your "nerfed" boon duration.. Why aren't you targeting the boon duration from runes and sigils and food instead? Those are overtuned anyway, especially the runes.

True, that is also another reasonable request to balance runesets between each other, but changing those have certain issues:

1. It will affect PvE and PvE is developers favorite child

2. Are low boon duration builds really a problem everywhere? Isn't  roamer being able to choose between having 15-20% boon duration  and none actually build diversity?

3. It will only make Celestial/Minstrel even stronger compared to other sets (Less boon duration => More proportionate increase from boon duration)

If they're willing to forego PvE for it, this request can also be done to runes alongside since it is true that Runes that provide % boon duration provide much more stats than corresponding runes of other stats (5% boon duration =75 stats, 10% = 150 stats, 15% = 225 stats, much more after change), so those are also reasonable to tune down across gamemode. But it will only make Celestial/Minstrel even stronger.

 

TLDR: Both of the following can be done:

1. Concentration effectiveness down tuned down in WvW

2. Boon duration runes now provide concentration corresponding to other similar runesets instead of boon duration everywhere

but doing only 2nd one will only fix rune balance and make Minstrel/Celestial stronger.

[Riba.3271]

On 2/24/2024 at 10:00 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

On 2/24/2024 at 9:34 AM, Riba.3271 said:

Actually, it isn't that simple. Because Firebrand isn't replacable and running 2 of them is considered excessive amount of same boons.

And you proposed a tiny reduction in boon duration. 

So run two of them then 🤷‍♂️

Intent of the changes isn't to make other sets unplayable, just reduce cele/minstrel proportionate amount from 40%-60% of players to 20-40%. If half people on your server are playing optimally minstrel in group play, and cele in roaming play, there is hardly much build diversity when you think that rest of the players are split between all other viable sets. It is like Desert map is only a huge problem for scoring balance because of it having half the activity of other borderlands, but if it had same activity then it wouldn't be as big of a problem.

Now if people choose to play 2nd firebrand, which is also completely viable strategy right now, then let them. But there are better 2ndary supports that provide difference bonuses (Alac, Auras, Damage reduction, stealth, superspeed, cleanse) as long as you play around timing of your boons.

Edited February 29 by Riba.3271

[DeWolfe.2174]

Leave gear stats alone. The problem is that the dev's created too much access to strike and condi damage, especially on the same weapon and utility skill.

They changed their philosophy of having specific rolls to every profession can do everything. That's why cele, the everything stat, has become too powerful.

Ele, Harbinger, and Willbender skills just need to be nerf batted hard. Not that gear stats themselves.

[Riba.3271]

On 2/29/2024 at 9:03 PM, DeWolfe.2174 said:

Ele, Harbinger, and Willbender skills just need to be nerf batted hard. Not that gear stats themselves.

Won't change the fact that 50% boon duration + 75% power DPS+ super tankiness will always be better tankier and more damaging than all damage gearsets.

Won't change the fact that blobs are still 40-60% Minstrel players.

 

On 2/29/2024 at 9:03 PM, DeWolfe.2174 said:

They changed their philosophy of having specific rolls to every profession can do everything. That's why cele, the everything stat, has become too powerful.

Cele only became super powerful after they added 50% boon duration so removing boon downtime and increasing amount of might stacks in addition to 50% condition duration so +50% potential condition damage and CC to it for free. Cele used to grant 25% more total stats than 4-stat sets, now it is 60%. 37%/76% more against 3-stat sets. So they more than doubled the incentive to choose Celestial stats over anything else.

Edited March 1 by Riba.3271

[choovanski.5462]

how about just revert all the boonrip nerfs that got us here?

 

i know that sounds crazy, but it might just work

[Jojo.6590]

They MUST equalize state values for each piece of gear. For example, a helm offers a total of 100 state points (using 100 because it is an easy number for most people to understand this concept). Next, depending on the type of equipment (zerks vs assassins) will then dictate which stat(s) is the priority/main stat while the others are minor stats. This will then give the priority stat(s) more points from the 100 total than the others. In this scenario, a zerk's helm would have 50 power, 25 precision, and 25 ferocity while the assassin's helm would have 50 precision, 25 power, and 25 ferocity. What changes is how the 100 value is distributed amongst the different stat values while being restricted by the 100 stat cap. 

This next part is not my idea originally it is one of my guild mates, but they're spot on.

Simply just remove numbers from all skills (weapons, class skills, utilities, etc) leaving just the armor/stat coefficients. This would then make your damage, healing, boon-up time, etc 100% dependent on your gear and not the current mix of odd multipliers.   

 

[DeWolfe.2174]

5 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Cele only became super powerful after they added 50% boon duration

Cele has been around for a decade and was a trash set outside of a couple Ele and Engi builds who could take advantage of it. Cele is only a problem of late because of balance changes that allows builds to take advantage of the all stats. It's not the stats, it's the balance changes. Nerf bat the problems, not the stats.

[TheGrimm.5624]

8 hours ago, choovanski.5462 said:

how about just revert all the boonrip nerfs that got us here?

 

i know that sounds crazy, but it might just work

I think this might be the first step versus having the tail wag the dog.

[TheGrimm.5624]

6 hours ago, DeWolfe.2174 said:

Cele has been around for a decade and was a trash set outside of a couple Ele and Engi builds who could take advantage of it. Cele is only a problem of late because of balance changes that allows builds to take advantage of the all stats. It's not the stats, it's the balance changes. Nerf bat the problems, not the stats.

Agree.

Cele has gotten a place at the table due to more builds that can use Cele. These discussions are similar to when condi gained a place at the table compared to power and all the calls to nerf condi builds. The cycle continues. No to nerfing gear stats. If you have issues with skills, take them to the profession subforums and address them there. 

[TheGrimm.5624]

12 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Cele only became super powerful

Please stop the witch hunts. Cele works on cele builds. Just like power works on power builds and condi works on condi builds. Just as sustain works on sustain builds and healing works on healing builds. You need to address this in the class forums where you think that one rules them all. Sorry disagree they don't. And I play some of them all. You need to stop assuming that one rules them all. Even your assumption on percentages, where are these stats coming from? I try and see multiple points and you asked me to stop that, so where are these numbers coming from? 

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 2/23/2024 at 5:10 AM, Riba.3271 said:

Also balances Minstrel which 40 to 60% of party members have been running since its release.

I don't deny they aren't out there. 

But 40-60%? Run Havoc too much, have never grouped with any that use the set and I run tanky. Maybe this is a difference in large and small scale? Maybe this is why large scale ask for nerfs to damage while small scale ask why is that needed?

 

[TheGrimm.5624]

All sets have at most points been called out to be nerfed. In all cases its a bad idea. Focus on the skills that make you think the set is OP and address it in the profession sub forum if you want results. Sets that have been posted as OP in this sub forum is basically, all. 

[Zyreva.1078]

@TheGrimm.5624

Do you think it would be balanced, if marauder (and only marauder) received a flat 30% increase to all of it's stats?

Edited March 4 by Zyreva.1078

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 3/2/2024 at 6:59 AM, Zyreva.1078 said:

@TheGrimm.5624

Do you think it would be balanced, it marauder (and only marauder) received a flat 30% increase to all of it's stats?

Where is Cele or Mini asking for a buff? I am not sure what you are asking. Mara has builds its BiS for same as others. Where I disagree with Riba is that non Cele elites are wasting stats if we all just tell non-forum goers to Cele and you win. Choose the gear set that matches the class and elite. Where I think we disagree on is they have been adding elites that can use Cele. And I disagree with nerfiing any set versus addressing the skills that can use the set. Again, we have seen this in a ton of sets over time, I can't even count the number of sets that I have seen that players asked to nerf due to skills that could use them. Mara included had to defend. sPvP lost a ton of players as they removed Amulets, I think we would lose even more in WvW by a magnitude. 

Edited March 4 by TheGrimm.5624
Mara details

[Dawdler.8521]

2 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Again, we have seen this in a ton of sets over time, I can't even count the number of sets that I have seen that players asked to nerf due to skills that could use them. 

And the skills just happen to expansion related. I think dagger on a full dire ranger would do more power damage than pistol on a full berserker engineer.

[Zyreva.1078]

9 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

I am not sure what you are asking.

My question is very clear and the answer is either yes or no. So, what's your answer?

[Widebody.5071]

Celestial became over powered when more players gained access to items that carried it's stats. The complainers lost their biggest advantage, even after driving melee stats down for at least a decade or more they are still complaining for more nerfs. As melee classes start to become less represented in competitive mode and players switch over to the casters (which was taunted to be the best to do instead of "playing a no brain, loser class") they're literally having fits now hoping for a change.

Change what I don't like but don't touch my preferred stats or it'll cause a total collapse of the game mode. It's like a can I get a buff brotherhood trying to rig the game for themselves. No one talks about lowering condi damage which in my opinion is way overtuned. There's no way condi should benefit more from might then physical skills.

 

 

Edited March 4 by Widebody.5071

[schloumou.3982]

On 3/2/2024 at 8:58 AM, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Agree.

Cele has gotten a place at the table due to more builds that can use Cele. These discussions are similar to when condi gained a place at the table compared to power and all the calls to nerf condi builds. The cycle continues. No to nerfing gear stats. If you have issues with skills, take them to the profession subforums and address them there. 

The Cele buff took place around the same time of the big balance overhault that nerfed power coefficients across the board and detached damage from CC skills. That was supposed to lay the foundation for follow up balancing but that never happend and left many cc heavy builds and traits unplayable. This is what made good cele builds unkillable. I was playing core dd ele at the time with some cele gear in the mix for the lulz and it sucked until the patch. Suddenly i was deleting people in non cele gear left and right. What i dont understand is, you are here long enough to know how Anet handles the game, this mode and balance in particular and still propose to adress every skill of all the specs separately to solve the issue of one clearly broken set in this environment. Its just delusional. Sorry not gonna happen. Reverting the cele buff and look from here is a realistic option here tho.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1) Unnerf the boon rip nerfs.

2) Give more hard CCs their damage back.

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 hour ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

My question is very clear and the answer is either yes or no. So, what's your answer?

Do I think Mara needs a buff? I think we didn't need the 2020 Feb nerf patch and made the statements at the time that all that was going to lead to is where we are now where players would be calling out tank builds and sustain builds as they did when people started switching over to PVT versus Zerk gear. And just like when players asked that PVT be removed I am against that. Now not all posts are going that removal route, but when it starts to go that way, that's where I am going to reply, same with the whole amulet position since we have seen what that did to sPvP, not for that. And yes, I didn't reply to just Mara since I use the set and honestly I am not asking for buffs to gear sets I use so you leave me in a position asking if some of my toons to get buffed, and outside of asking that War bola be changed into a lockdown that's then converted to a pull if it hits, asking for buffs is just not something I post on. But I am not a fan of the nerf culture we see on the forums either. So yes in that aspect, add to the game, not take things away.