My thoughts on pistols

[gem.9038]

So first off the damage vs. longbow is... wimpy in my opinion. It's pretty awkward too considering the symbol (#3 skill - Symbol of Ignition) drops at your feet yet all the other weapon skills are ranged. Therefore if you wanna play pistols to their full extent you gotta melee. Also whenever the #5 skill (Jurisdiction) gets fixed, it's going to make it even more awkward because you'll have to charge it, release the projectile and immediately detonate it within a split second at melee range. Again since the pistols work best at melee due to that symbol placement. Also, the indicator of charge level for Jurisdiction is the animation itself. This happens quickly and you gotta count which one you're on. It's just too cumbersome in my opinion.

Based on my opinions. Here's some thoughts on what needs to be changed. 

• Change the #3 skill (Symbol of Ignition) to a ground based AOE with 900 range
• Increase the base damage of all the skills and slightly extend the duration of conditions
• The charge level for #5 skill (Jurisdiction) should be separated into 3 segments to show which you're on
• Jurisdiction rework
  • Change all projectiles to 'on target hit'. Since this makes it easier to use, you can counter-balance it by having each charge level have different amounts of CC as well as a longer charging time (2 seconds instead of 1.25). Instead of all levels being at 400 CC. Charge level 1 (100 CC), level 2 (150 CC), level 3 (300 CC)

[AGGabriel.9230]

This is a mockery of the highest mode, no damage changes no damage done even condition with the weapons main and offhand pve/pvp and even wvw roaming or zerging even with that pierce effect.

I thought i'll go guns blazing and finish it close or chase it just tickles the rest of the vs classes, pve just makes you back up ( rolling back) or swaping weapon to finish it .

Is this another useless weapon in the guardian lockerbox

[Gaiawolf.8261]

16 hours ago, circuitnerd.5863 said:

So first off the damage vs. longbow is... wimpy in my opinion. It's pretty awkward too considering the symbol (#3 skill - Symbol of Ignition) drops at your feet yet all the other weapon skills are ranged. Therefore if you wanna play pistols to their full extent you gotta melee. Also whenever the #5 skill (Jurisdiction) gets fixed, it's going to make it even more awkward because you'll have to charge it, release the projectile and immediately detonate it within a split second at melee range. Again since the pistols work best at melee due to that symbol placement. Also, the indicator of charge level for Jurisdiction is the animation itself. This happens quickly and you gotta count which one you're on. It's just too cumbersome in my opinion.

Based on my opinions. Here's some thoughts on what needs to be changed. 

• Change the #3 skill (Symbol of Ignition) to a ground based AOE with 900 range
• Increase the base damage of all the skills and slightly extend the duration of conditions
• The charge level for #5 skill (Jurisdiction) should be separated into 3 segments to show which you're on
• Jurisdiction rework
  • Change all projectiles to 'on target hit'. Since this makes it easier to use, you can counter-balance it by having each charge level have different amounts of CC as well as a longer charging time (2 seconds instead of 1.25). Instead of all levels being at 400 CC. Charge level 1 (100 CC), level 2 (150 CC), level 3 (300 CC)

This is mostly accurate. I actually believe it, but still sorry to see, that almost all of our feedback in the official feedback thread was ignored. The biggest complaints were how the symbol encouraged melee range and how Jurisdiction's explosion was manually triggered. Both issues ignored by the devs. And the symbol could have mostly been fixed either by making it ground targeted at range or moving Hail to slot #2 so the symbol always had a distant range use. Reduce symbol direct damage as necessary.

Personally, I find the symbol's interaction with any skill that's not Hail of Justice and reliance on 240 range direct damage to be weapon's the biggest issue. Until the symbol's ranged issues are addressed, the main hand pistol is going to feel lackluster and unintuitive, regardless of how much DPS it does. I can live with not charging Jurisdiction to level 3, but that feels wrong too.

EDIT: Oh, never mind. My bad. The radius of the symbol is 180 inches, not 240. That's much better!

Edited February 29 by Gaiawolf.8261

[Kuya.6495]

Doesn't the symbol enchant your projectiles to burn so you don't need to drop the symbol on the target to burn them (if you're using pistols)?

[Marcelo.4210]

6 minutes ago, Kuya.6495 said:

Doesn't the symbol enchant your projectiles to burn so you don't need to drop the symbol on the target to burn them (if you're using pistols)?

Yeah, it does.
It's the only possible interaction from what I saw for the dual weild of the guns, outside of that, they have 0 interactions with each other. 

[Gaiawolf.8261]

10 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

Doesn't the symbol enchant your projectiles to burn so you don't need to drop the symbol on the target to burn them (if you're using pistols)?

Yes, it does, which makes OH pistol the only OH weapon that works with it outside its perimeter. However, the symbol also does decent direct damage of its own AND ignites ANY skill that hits an enemy within its area. OH torch and focus can both proc burns from the symbol, but not at range. So no matter what you use, it's doing noticeably more damage in melee, and it's almost completely useless with a torch or focus outside of 180 inches. I think Anet decided pistols are melee weapons now. Just ask bladesworns, and apparently elementalists now too. 😅

Edited February 29 by Gaiawolf.8261

[Saiyan.1704]

[spvp]
To add on to this, pistol's symbol meshes really well with wb's Whirling Light. It honestly feels like pistol/pistol was solely made for WB.

P3 with Whirling Light... does so much condi that it feels like I took a condi amulet when i'm just zerks/valks lol.

[Surelia.2651]

Meanwhile, over at the Reddit-OK-Corral  😂

[draxynnic.3719]

Pretty much what was being said beforehand and apparently ignored. The symbol being foot-targeted is nonsensical for a supposedly ranged weapon, especially with how much of the weapon's damage potential is loaded into the symbol. And skill 5 is taking the 'press-again-to-detonate' mechanic that was previously mostly eliminated for good reason and then made it even worse with a charge mechanic.

The symbol needs to be ranged, and the press-to-detonate mechanic needs to go. They said the intent was so you could have the projectile pass through the target before detonating so you can choose to knock the enemy towards you... fine. Make it do that. On the third level of charge, it automatically pierces until it leaves the hitbox of the targeted enemy, then explodes.

If they did those two things, the rest would just be numbers balancing and it'd be a good set. Until then, the set is going to remain totally undermined by terrible mechanics.

Edited February 29 by draxynnic.3719

[Titan.7853]

I disagree about symbol placement being an issue.  I think the dev made the right choice.  There is sooooo much character movement in fights, especially competitive gameplay, that your opponent would immediately hop out of the symbol and therefore it would not have an effect.  By placing it underneath you, it allows you to drop it and burst with pistol #4 from within the symbol.  That puts you in control.  You can also dodge backwards and fire through it, and anyone who wants to melee you has to enter the symbol and will be damaged, this includes PvE boss fights.

Also, it's just plain faster and less complicated to have the symbol drop beneath you rather than select a ground target.  These are a very fast paced weapons, and things like ground targeting add an extra step.  In general I am not of fan of ground targeting, it's always slower and more clunky - even with snap to ground target enabled (which doesn't anticipate character movement).

When I think of Longbow #4 (Symbol of Energy), a 1200 range symbol, when is it useful?  I primarily use that AFTER I have trapped someone with Longbow #5, so they must be immobilized first, or when they are in a down state and can't move, then I place it on them.  Otherwise it doesn't get used much, because people immediately jump out of it.

The way this particular symbol was designed to work on pistol, by turning regular rounds into incendiary rounds that inflict burning, I am utterly convinced that having the symbol beneath you is the correct decision.  Speaking of which, the animation that turns your regular blue rounds into fiery orange incendiary rounds as it goes outside of the symbol is just plain gorgeous.  Whoever did it, did such a great job.  I don't know whether or not you guys have taken the time to appreciate it, but definitely do so if you haven't already.

I have a lot more to say, but I'll refrain from doing so until ArcDPS is back up and running, and I have had more time to test the pistols on different builds and in different scenarios.  I don't need to test more to know that symbol was correctly implemented.  I only wish that it lasted longer.  You should definitely be able to get two bursts of Pistol #4 (Hail of Justice) through the symbol before it goes away.  Otherwise only half of your burst from Hail of Justice inflicts burning.  That's my feedback for now, more to come later.

Edited February 29 by Titan.7853

[Saiyan.1704]

3 minutes ago, Titan.7853 said:

I disagree about symbol placement being an issue.  I think the dev made the right choice.  There is sooooo much character movement in fights, especially competitive gameplay, that your opponent would immediately hop out of the symbol and therefore it would not have an effect.  By placing it underneath you, it allows you to drop it and burst with pistol #4 from within the symbol.  You can also dodge backwards and fire through it.  Anyone who wants to melee you has to enter the symbol and will be damaged, this includes PvE boss fights.

Also, it's just plain faster and less complicated to have the symbol drop beneath you rather than select a ground target.  These are a very fast paced weapons, and things like ground targeting add an extra step.  In general I am not of fan of ground targeting, it's always slower and more clunky - even with snap to ground target enabled (which doesn't anticipate character movement).

When I think of Longbow #4 (Symbol of Energy), a 1200 range symbol, when is it useful?  I primarily use that AFTER I have trapped someone with Longbow #5, so they must be immobilized first, or when they are in a down state and can't move, then I place it on them.  Otherwise it doesn't get used much, because people immediately jump out of it.

The way this particular symbol was designed to work on pistol, by turning regular rounds into incendiary rounds that inflict burning, I am utterly convinced that having the symbol beneath you is the correct decision.  Speaking of which, the animation that turns your regular blue rounds into fiery orange incendiary rounds as it goes outside of the symbol is just plain gorgeous.  Whoever did it, did such a great job.  I don't know whether or not you guys have taken the time to appreciate it, but definitely do so if you haven't already.

I have a lot more to say, but I'll refrain from doing so until ArcDPS is back up and running, and I have had more time to test the pistols on different builds and in different scenarios.  I don't need to test more to know that symbol was correctly implemented.  I only wish that it lasted longer.  You should definitely be able to get two bursts of Pistol #4 (Hail of Justice) through the symbol before it goes away.  Otherwise only half of your burst from Hail of Justice inflicts burning.  That's my feedback for now, more to come later.

100% agree. I can shoot the symbol under me and weapon switch quickly or use Whirling Light to take advantage of the burns.

Every hit in the symbol causes burning. Basically a free Purging Flames at their feet. There's no reason to dumb pistol#3 down further because other players wants a QoL improvement.... it's fine as it is.

[Titan.7853]

3 hours ago, Saiyan.1704 said:

100% agree. I can shoot the symbol under me and weapon switch quickly or use Whirling Light to take advantage of the burns.

Every hit in the symbol causes burning. Basically a free Purging Flames at their feet. There's no reason to dumb pistol#3 down further because other players wants a QoL improvement.... it's fine as it is.

Interesting about Whirling Light, I'll have to try that.  We are in total agreement here, only I wouldn't call it a "QoL improvement," rather I'd call it a huge reduction in QoL to change this fast casting symbol into a slow, ground targeted, ranged symbol.  That would be awful.

In fact, I am reminded of how scepter/torch was taken for Condition Firebrand, and how as part of the rotation, Scepter #2 (Symbol of Punishment) was placed underneath you for the might that it provided, and how getting that ranged target placed correctly every time screwed up my rotation.  It was hard to do as part of a fast rotation, even on a golem.  I wished that it was just automatically cast beneath me.  Now imagine how much worse that would be in competitive gameplay while trying to fire though it! 

Edited February 29 by Titan.7853

[Assassine.1958]

PvE:

Pistole main hand is the better scepter in PvE (if you are playing condi-Fb / condi quickness fb).

Offhand: its a bit too clunky in my opinion. I guess torch is still the best option for condi builds and thats fine. Torch is since the trait changes great so dont touch it again thx!

WvW:

Not too crazy but still a good option for condibuilds (Main hand).

Offhand feels clunky xD

 

[Gaiawolf.8261]

4 hours ago, Titan.7853 said:

I disagree about symbol placement being an issue.  I think the dev made the right choice.  There is sooooo much character movement in fights, especially competitive gameplay, that your opponent would immediately hop out of the symbol and therefore it would not have an effect.  By placing it underneath you, it allows you to drop it and burst with pistol #4 from within the symbol.  That puts you in control.  You can also dodge backwards and fire through it, and anyone who wants to melee you has to enter the symbol and will be damaged, this includes PvE boss fights.

Also, it's just plain faster and less complicated to have the symbol drop beneath you rather than select a ground target.  These are a very fast paced weapons, and things like ground targeting add an extra step.  In general I am not of fan of ground targeting, it's always slower and more clunky - even with snap to ground target enabled (which doesn't anticipate character movement).

When I think of Longbow #4 (Symbol of Energy), a 1200 range symbol, when is it useful?  I primarily use that AFTER I have trapped someone with Longbow #5, so they must be immobilized first, or when they are in a down state and can't move, then I place it on them.  Otherwise it doesn't get used much, because people immediately jump out of it.

The way this particular symbol was designed to work on pistol, by turning regular rounds into incendiary rounds that inflict burning, I am utterly convinced that having the symbol beneath you is the correct decision.  Speaking of which, the animation that turns your regular blue rounds into fiery orange incendiary rounds as it goes outside of the symbol is just plain gorgeous.  Whoever did it, did such a great job.  I don't know whether or not you guys have taken the time to appreciate it, but definitely do so if you haven't already.

I have a lot more to say, but I'll refrain from doing so until ArcDPS is back up and running, and I have had more time to test the pistols on different builds and in different scenarios.  I don't need to test more to know that symbol was correctly implemented.  I only wish that it lasted longer.  You should definitely be able to get two bursts of Pistol #4 (Hail of Justice) through the symbol before it goes away.  Otherwise only half of your burst from Hail of Justice inflicts burning.  That's my feedback for now, more to come later.

Interesting. So how do you get torch and focus skills to proc the symbol, or get any use out of the symbol at all, outside of melee range? Considering they are all ranged weapons, after all. 

[draxynnic.3719]

There are several big problems with the 'foot targeting is better' argument:

The most important is that shooting out of the symbol only works for the skills that are projectiles. That's pretty much limited to skills 1 and 4 on pistols - and if you're relying on skill 4 to make it worthwhile, that's forcing you to always use them as a pair.

A big part of the power budget relies on the target, not you, being in the symbol. The symbol does damage directly. The symbol causes other attacks to do more damage if the target is within the symbol. This applies even to the projectile attacks you're considering: firing skill 4 at a target in the symbol will achieve more than standing in the symbol and firing skill 4 at a target outside the symbol.

Third, you're considering situations where the target might move, but not situations where YOU might have to. In most boss fights, placing the symbol under the target is a safer bet than trying to stay in it yourself while avoiding attacks and mechanics. In competitive, placing a symbol on an objective being contested is still a safer bet than trying to stay within the symbol yourself. 

Finally... dude, if you don't like ground-targeting, guardian isn't as bad as engineer but it probably still isn't for you. Every elite spec has a ground target in its mechanic. Every other ranged weapon has at least one ground target. Several important utilities are ground targeted. Avoiding taking half a second to place a circle is NOT worth kneecapping the entire set.

[Titan.7853]

8 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

There are several big problems with the 'foot targeting is better' argument:

The most important is that shooting out of the symbol only works for the skills that are projectiles. That's pretty much limited to skills 1 and 4 on pistols - and if you're relying on skill 4 to make it worthwhile, that's forcing you to always use them as a pair.

A big part of the power budget relies on the target, not you, being in the symbol. The symbol does damage directly. The symbol causes other attacks to do more damage if the target is within the symbol. This applies even to the projectile attacks you're considering: firing skill 4 at a target in the symbol will achieve more than standing in the symbol and firing skill 4 at a target outside the symbol.

Third, you're considering situations where the target might move, but not situations where YOU might have to. In most boss fights, placing the symbol under the target is a safer bet than trying to stay in it yourself while avoiding attacks and mechanics. In competitive, placing a symbol on an objective being contested is still a safer bet than trying to stay within the symbol yourself. 

Finally... dude, if you don't like ground-targeting, guardian isn't as bad as engineer but it probably still isn't for you. Every elite spec has a ground target in its mechanic. Every other ranged weapon has at least one ground target. Several important utilities are ground targeted. Avoiding taking half a second to place a circle is NOT worth kneecapping the entire set.

No, these aren't "big problems," or entirely accurate.  I tested damage with the target both on symbol, and off symbol, in both power and condition builds tonight for over an hour on a golem.  It's difficult to say for sure without ArcDPS, I am just eyeing it, but I can tell you the following:

1) The symbol itself does strike damage, 5 pulses over 4 seconds. Of course, this only applies if your target stays within the symbol the entire duration.

2) Other strike damage seems unaffected by whether or not the target is within the symbol.  If you are seeing increased strike damage, it may be from the added might the symbol provides to you.  Give yourself 25 stacks of might when testing to normalize that effect.

3) To my eye the only apparent damage modifier is burn damage.  In repeated testing, I counted stacks of burning from projectiles (1, 4) and kept an eye our for the peak burn number, and it seems like there is a 10-15% increase in peak burn dps if the target is within the symbol.  Typically you would get one extra stack of peak burn for a single blip from auto attack.  These attacks apply a very shot burn duration, they spike and drop rapidly.  Pistol #4 appeared about the same.  When I stretched that out as far as possible with Balthazar Runes, I was able to get it to around a 20% increase in peak burn with the target within the symbol from pistol projectile strikes.  Strike and bleed damage seem unaffected, as you would expect by reading the description.

What was interesting to see was applying the symbol and immediately doing Whirling Light (4 x strike attack) with the target in the symbol.  You can really see burn damage increase from that (over 100%).  The same was true of other strike attacks, if you dropped the symbol, weapon swapped and did Executioner's Calling, you got some decent burning.  Pistol #2 (5 x strike attack) increased burning by nearly 100% with the target inside the symbol, rather than out.  For some reason, pistol projectiles (1,4,5) don't seem to add much burning with the target in the symbol as mentioned, perhaps 10-15%.  I am speculating that is because I am so close to the target I am getting an extra shot in.  Pistol projectiles do not show an "ignite" effect of the symbol (flames at your feet) when you strike a target within it, but strike attacks do.  You can most clearly see this effect with pistol #2, which apparently counts as a strike attack.  Pistol projectile do, however, show an ignite animation as they leave the symbol (which is beautiful).

I am almost certain that all the burn damage that you get from pistol projectiles is from the incendiary effect, and it doesn't matter whether the target is inside the symbol or not.  If the target is in the symbol, strike damage "ignites" the symbol, providing your melee attacks with burning as well (including pistol #2).  It is really starting to make sense now why the symbol is placed beneath you.

------------

Symbol of Ignition: Create a symbol that ignites when you strike an enemy inside it or shoot a projectile into it, damaging and burning enemies inside it. If the symbol is ignited by a projectile, it enchants that projectile to burn its target.

 Damage (5x): 735 (2.0), Burning (2s): 262 Damage, Number of Targets: 5,  Minimum Time between Ignitions: ¼ seconds, Duration: 4 seconds, Radius: 180, Combo Field: Light

-------------

Anyway, I can tell by reading your post that you are concerned about boss fights in PvE, not competitive gameplay.  If you are fighting a boss with a stationary mechanic, and your squad isn't stacked, then dropping the symbol at range might be better in that niche circumstance.  You'll get your (5x 735) damage and that little extra burn from pistol #2 while you avoid mechanics.  Aside from that, I can assure you after thousands of matches of PvP and hundreds of hours in WvW, that nobody wittingly stands within a symbol that is damaging them, except maybe a Zerg with dedicated support.  Not even all NPCs do that.

I suggest you go into some competitive gameplay, and laydown down Longbow #4 (Symbol of Energy) on your targets at range before engaging them.  See how long they stay in your symbol, and if they don't, try to shoot them through it.  Let us know how that works out for you.

Edited March 1 by Titan.7853

[Pluton.7364]

On 2/28/2024 at 11:14 PM, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Yes, it does, which makes OH pistol the only OH weapon that works with it outside its perimeter. However, the symbol also does decent direct damage of its own AND ignites ANY skill that hits an enemy within its area. OH torch and focus can both proc burns from the symbol, but not at range. So no matter what you use, it's doing noticeably more damage in melee, and it's almost completely useless with a torch or focus outside of 180 inches. I think Anet decided pistols are melee weapons now. Just ask bladesworns, and apparently elementalists now too. 😅

Those 180units range comming from metres… its 1.8m

[Trejgon.9367]

I am still very disappointed that the animation for symbol of ignition is not actually firing the pistol into the ground (but instead reuse of staff symbol cast).

[Gaiawolf.8261]

2 hours ago, Titan.7853 said:

No, these aren't "big problems," or entirely accurate.  I tested damage with the target both on symbol, and off symbol, in both power and condition builds tonight for over an hour on a golem.  It's difficult to say for sure without ArcDPS, I am just eyeing it, but I can tell you the following:

1) The symbol itself does strike damage, 5 pulses over 4 seconds. Of course, this only applies if your target stays within the symbol the entire duration.

2) Other strike damage seems unaffected by whether or not the target is within the symbol.  If you are seeing increased strike damage, it may be from the added might the symbol provides to you.  Give yourself 25 stacks of might when testing to normalize that effect.

3) To my eye the only apparent damage modifier is burn damage.  In repeated testing, I counted stacks of burning from projectiles (1, 4) and kept an eye our for the peak burn number, and it seems like there is a 10-15% increase in peak burn dps if the target is within the symbol.  Typically you would get one extra stack of peak burn for a single blip from auto attack.  These attacks apply a very shot burn duration, they spike and drop rapidly.  Pistol #4 appeared about the same.  When I stretched that out as far as possible with Balthazar Runes, I was able to get it to around a 20% increase in peak burn with the target within the symbol from pistol projectile strikes.  Strike and bleed damage seem unaffected, as you would expect by reading the description.

What was interesting to see was applying the symbol and immediately doing Whirling Light (4 x strike attack) with the target in the symbol.  You can really see burn damage increase from that (over 100%).  The same was true of other strike attacks, if you dropped the symbol, weapon swapped and did Executioner's Calling, you got some decent burning.  Pistol #2 (5 x strike attack) increased burning by nearly 100% with the target inside the symbol, rather than out.  For some reason, pistol projectiles (1,4,5) don't seem to add much burning with the target in the symbol as mentioned, perhaps 10-15%.  I am speculating that is because I am so close to the target I am getting an extra shot in.  Pistol projectiles do not show an "ignite" effect of the symbol (flames at your feet) when you strike a target within it, but strike attacks do.  You can most clearly see this effect with pistol #2, which apparently counts as a strike attack.  Pistol projectile do, however, show an ignite animation as they leave the symbol (which is beautiful).

I am almost certain that all the burn damage that you get from pistol projectiles is from the incendiary effect, and it doesn't matter whether the target is inside the symbol or not.  If the target is in the symbol, strike damage "ignites" the symbol, providing your melee attacks with burning as well (including pistol #2).  It is really starting to make sense now why the symbol is placed beneath you.

------------

Symbol of Ignition: Create a symbol that ignites when you strike an enemy inside it or shoot a projectile into it, damaging and burning enemies inside it. If the symbol is ignited by a projectile, it enchants that projectile to burn its target.

 Damage (5x): 735 (2.0), Burning (2s): 262 Damage, Number of Targets: 5,  Minimum Time between Ignitions: ¼ seconds, Duration: 4 seconds, Radius: 180, Combo Field: Light

-------------

Anyway, I can tell by reading your post that you are concerned about boss fights in PvE, not competitive gameplay.  If you are fighting a boss with a stationary mechanic, and your squad isn't stacked, then dropping the symbol at range might be better in that niche circumstance.  You'll get your (5x 735) damage and that little extra burn from pistol #2 while you avoid mechanics.  Aside from that, I can assure you after thousand of matches of PvP and hundreds of hours in WvW, that nobody wittingly stands within a symbol that is damaging them, except maybe a Zerg with dedicated support.  Not even all NPCs do that.

I suggest you go into some competitive gameplay, and laydown down Longbow #4 (Symbol of Energy) on your targets at range before engaging them.  See how long they stay in your symbol, and if they don't, try to shoot them through it.  Let us know how that works out for you.

Can you post how much DPS you did at range (target outside the symbol) versus fighting in melee?

Did you try fighting at range with pistol/focus or pistol/torch? Personally, I plan wanted to go scepter/shield and pistol/focus in WVW so I can dump my LB, but it looks like a loss. 

Thanks for any data you can provide. We appreciate real values we can evaluate. I haven't had time to test this myself yet, like I did in beta.

Oh, and generally you use LB #5 before #4 to trap, and sometimes you can use #3 or FB F1-#3 to knock them back in. 

[Gaiawolf.8261]

2 hours ago, Pluton.7364 said:

Those 180units range comming from metres… its 1.8m

Sorry, I don't thinks that's the correct conversion. 180 inches is 4.572 meters. 

[Titan.7853]

31 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Can you post how much DPS you did at range (target outside the symbol) versus fighting in melee?

Did you try fighting at range with pistol/focus or pistol/torch? Personally, I plan wanted to go scepter/shield and pistol/focus in WVW so I can dump my LB, but it looks like a loss. 

Thanks for any data you can provide. We appreciate real values we can evaluate. I haven't had time to test this myself yet, like I did in beta.

Oh, and generally you use LB #5 before #4 to trap, and sometimes you can use #3 or FB F1-#3 to knock them back in. 

Off the top of my head, I can only give you a very rough ballpark.  I was really focusing on figuring out the mechanics.

I mostly tested with a hybrid damage build (Radiance, Virtues, Willbender), in Celestial Stats for WvW roaming (so not traited for maximum dps).  The dps was not that great, to be honest.  In the roughly the same build with Sword/Torch, I can get near 20k dps on a golem as a benchmark at melee range (with all the boons/buffs/conditions to golem).  With this build, I was getting maybe 16k with pistol/pistol at melee.  The Runes were different, which could account for some of the difference, and ArcDPS isn't working now, so I need to do further testing.  I tried some "normal encounters" on the golem, with no boons, buffs, or conditions applied and it scaled correspondingly.  In my "normal encounters" with the golem, I tried ranged only, and the dps dropped by 50%.  This could be because Willbender's Rushing Justice doesn't get triggered, and because you only have the 4 ranged pistol skills to use when they come off cooldown.

It's too early to tell exactly.  I need to do direct A/B testing with the exact same equipment stats/runes, but my feeling is that the pistols are less powerful at melee than Sword/Torch on Willbender.  At ranged, there is a dramatic decrease.  I feel they are underpowered, very much so at ranged distances.

Edited March 1 by Titan.7853

[Gaiawolf.8261]

3 minutes ago, Titan.7853 said:

Off the top of my head, I can only give you a very rough ballpark.  I was really focusing on figuring out the mechanics.

I mostly tested with a hybrid damage build (Radiance, Virtues, Willbender), in Celestial Stats for WvW roaming (so not traited for maximum dps).  The dps was not that great, to be honest.  In the roughly the same build with Sword/Torch, I can get near 20k dps on a golem as a benchmark at melee range (with all the boons/buffs/conditions to golem).  With this build, I was getting maybe 16k with pistol/pistol at melee.  The Runes were different, which could account for some of the difference, and ArcDPS isn't working now, so I need to do further testing.  I tried some "normal encounters" on the golem, with no boons, buffs, or conditions applied and it scaled correspondingly.  In my "normal encounters" with the golem, I tried ranged only, and the dps dropped by 50%.  This could be because Willbender's Rushing Justice doesn't get triggered, and because you only have the 4 ranged pistol skills to use when they come off cooldown.

It's too early to tell exactly.  I need to do direct A/B testing with the exact same equipment stats/runes, but my feeling is that the pistols are less powerful at melee than Sword/Torch on Willbender.  At ranged, there is a dramatic decrease.

Ouch. This is starting to confirm my fears. I play celestial FB in WVW with LB and scepter. I switch between shield and focus depending on group vs roaming solo. I was hoping I could fit MH pistol in there and be able to keep both the shield and focus, so I wouldn't have to switch out anymore. 

In PvE I would probably use p/p but would still prefer to be effective at range. I could live with a 10% DPS loss vs melee, but 20%+? 

Thanks for your effort and input. I'll test it too when ARCDPS is back. 

[Titan.7853]

Just now, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Ouch. This is starting to confirm my fears. I play celestial FB in WVW with LB and scepter. I switch between shield and focus depending on group vs roaming solo. I was hoping I could fit MH pistol in there and be able to keep both the shield and focus, so I wouldn't have to switch out anymore. 

In PvE I would probably use p/p but would still prefer to be effective at range. I could live with a 10% DPS loss vs melee, but 20%+? 

Thanks for your effort and input. I'll test it too when ARCDPS is back. 

No problem.  For what it's worth I am still really enjoying the weapons.  They are a lot of fun!  I think we have a winner on our hands over the long term.  ANet needs to balance the ranged damage to match the damage at melee range, that's for sure, including compensating for Rushing Justice on WB.  Perhaps they could do that by adding extra stacks of burning for incendiary projectiles striking a target outside of the symbol, while keeping the burning the same for melee strikes within the symbol? 

Interesting that you play Cele FB in WvW.  I have a Cele FB traited for damage, and the dps felt very similar to pistols at melee range.  I bet with the right runes and sigils, I can get pistol/pistol closer to sword/torch on Cele Willbender.  I've heard others say main hand pistol is a suitable replacement for scepter, so maybe you'll find that it works for you.

[Kuya.6495]

I'm going to agree with Titan that in terms of pvp, I think it's better that the symbol drop at your feet rather than be ground targeted. In pvp nobody is gonna stand on the symbol you just casted unless they are downstate. By making it cast at your feet, it doesn't matter whether the enemy moves or not because you can still enchant your p4 to burn thanks to the symbol. If the symbol had been ground targeted, to get value out of it if your target moves out, you would have to run to your symbol or position yourself so the symbol is between you and the target and any player past gold 3 will not allow you to do that. I do agree I think the symbol should last longer so you can get two charges of p4 off per symbol.  

In pve it's a different story since the enemy is usually stationary there and you would prefer for the symbol to be ground targeted.

Edited March 1 by Kuya.6495

[Gaiawolf.8261]

29 minutes ago, Titan.7853 said:

No problem.  For what it's worth I am still really enjoying the weapons.  They are a lot of fun!  I think we have a winner on our hands over the long term.  ANet needs to balance the ranged damage to match the damage at melee range, that's for sure, including compensating for Rushing Justice on WB.  Perhaps they could do that by adding extra stacks of burning for incendiary projectiles striking a target outside of the symbol, while keeping the burning the same for melee strikes within the symbol? 

Interesting that you play Cele FB in WvW.  I have a Cele FB traited for damage, and the dps felt very similar to pistols at melee range.  I bet with the right runes and sigils, I can get pistol/pistol closer to sword/torch on Cele Willbender.  I've heard others say main hand pistol is a suitable replacement for scepter, so maybe you'll find that it works for you.

I'm not sure the current balance team cares much about making pistols a ranged weapon. It's becoming apparent they value balancing meta builds, which will be axe/torch and p/p for condi guards, over off meta options or true build craft. Even during the livestream they said the best thing they did to fix pistols was to change Radiant Fire so guards could use an axe and torch with the pistols. 🙄

I play both celebrand and more traditional/minstrel support in WVW. I really like the celebrand with speed relic for skirmishes. I can peel off a pack and roam or sync up with a group and still give tome support pretty seamlessly. The relic and sometimes an OH sword really helps to shore up FB's weaknesses for roaming. And gankers always underestimate how much damage a spam of Searing Spells can do. It blows any MH weapon away and has 600 range. 😀