Anet, lets have a talk about Strike CMs

[Drag You Down.2615]

1 hour ago, andreiblue.8231 said:

The difference is that those who want it will just grind at it until they finally kill it one single time then never touch it again. Why would they invest in content that can be done by less than 0.001% of players and even those only do it once instead of doing challenging but reasonable encounters which get done weekly by a larger community? IBS are the easiest and also the most popular strikes, always having a group in the lfg

Also, add to your point. Most CMs are actually very encouraging. The difference between the NM and CM are reasonable, such as W4 CM, W7 CM, OLC CM, AH CM. Even for HT CM, many casual players could participate the prog attempts and enjoy. Those CMs are exclusive, but only for their rewards and achievements, not participation.

On the other hand, TOF CM's boundary is way too high. If they don't lower the requirement, like you said, probably no one will do that again. It is very unfriendly to the general players, and the reward is not good enough for hardcore players to spend so much time on it every week. I don't know which part is wrong, the marketing or design. Are they going to give up the general pve player base? Or is it just a bad approach and execution of the design?

[Salt Mode.3780]

I mean at the moment if Snowcrows or HS can clear it anyone can right? Is that the hopium that everyone is waiting for? 

[Draygo.9473]

On 3/2/2024 at 11:22 PM, mandala.8507 said:

Just like OP has no concrete evidence of the overall playerbase's sentiments around the difficulty of encounters like this, you don't have evidence HTCM is somehow a selling point for the game.

Where is this significant volume of players that saw HTCM and decided to give GW2 a try who weren't going to be pulled in by other parts of the game anyway? It just doesn't exist, because GW2 is actually a terrible game for people who want to spend the majority of their time doing ultra-difficult content.

You can't say "you don't know that to be the case" while also pulling a notion out of thin air with no evidence that HTCM somehow was this monumental event for GW2. I promise, it wasn't. GW2 people heard about it. A miniscule portion of other MMO communities heard about it. But in truth, it just seemed like there was a lot of buzz about it because it got the bigger content creators in our isolated GW2 scene hyped up and they told their communities and friends it was a big deal because they were excited. It has had pretty much zero lasting impact on the makeup of the playerbase of GW2 and practically no one outside of the game would know what you were talking about if you mentioned HTCM to them.

I'm glad the EoD team got a chance to make an encounter like that, but there's zero shot it was a profit-generating endeavor for them. Making content like this is literally akin to lighting money on fire if you can't establish a large and loyal cohort of players because of it, which HTCM has obviously not accomplished. 4k account clears total on efficiency, and a solid chunk of those are surely sold kills and alt account clears.

People familiar with prog scenes from other MMOs understand it actually has nothing to do with the highest difficulty tier of the encounter and everything to do with the implementation of incrementality that hooks players of ALL skill levels into a progression ecosystem with multitudes of complexities and commitment requirements.

It's actually a consistent complaint in games like WoW when the raid content is catered too heavily to the highest tier of players, and prominent World's First competitors from that game have come out and said they don't like it when the developers of that game focus too much on how the content will play in the World First race and ignore the negative effects that will have on the playerbase at large.

We're seeing that in real time now with this Cerus CM. Anet is preserving the status quo of a bug that enabled a weeklong progression at the expense of the content being approachable to anyone but a select group of hardcore gamers. And while I won't call it an outright mistake, it is for sure a choice that has both negative and positive consequences, and time will tell which are more impactful.

I saw the twitch viewership, the new people in the streams (non-gw2 gamers), the interviews, the news articles. Yes it was a flash in the pan, but I'm going to believe my own eyes - it did generate buzz. Did that buzz translate into new players and how many of those players stayed, only Anet has those numbers and I made no claim to how small or large it may be. 

And the point I'm making about HTCM being sellable is that it isn't insanely difficult. Don't get me wrong it is hard but I don't see a problem with having a single hard encounter in an expansion. A single encounter like this is not catering an entire expansion to the 0.1%. 

Also don't get me wrong, Cerus should be nerfed, it just should not be nerfed now. The original 109M HP might have been a perfect target. I would not mind if anet continued the pattern of having the first encounter CM be relatively easy, and the second encounter in an expansion being relatively hard. 

[Draygo.9473]

18 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I mean at the moment if Snowcrows or HS can clear it anyone can right? Is that the hopium that everyone is waiting for? 

It means anet can nerf the encounter a bit. Nerfing it while they are racing it would feel bad man. 

[Dibit.6259]

On 3/3/2024 at 5:16 PM, Drag You Down.2615 said:

Also, when a PAYED content is dedicated to less than 1% of people, the game is going to have some serious problem. To the most people, the possibility to pass this will be 0. This is the power of dps check. It is not fun at all. Also if a payed content is too "exclusive", the customer will have to consider if they want to pay for something like this again or not. Because even they pay, they will likely to be rejected by the content since the designer wants to make it impossible for them. They should allow more people to at least be able to enjoy it, not necessarily pass it. Increasing the difficulty by the complexity rather than dps check.

This is different with HTCM. HTCM is mechanically hard but requires less dps as this one. Using dps check as a tool to increase the difficulty is will literally block the players from doing it. 

You will need at least 30k dps to be able to join the fight, this is the baseline. You should be able to do 40k at least on a golem in order to achieve this. And you will still fail. Plus you need to find 8 dps people like this, not 1 but 8. Clearly, only the players from the big guilds can find this kind of group. 

I don't agree with your statement of being entitled to get everything included in the expansion because you paid for it. This argument has been used too many times to justify easy or free content/rewards for little to no effort. This is just a small percentage of the expansion you paid for and was designed for those who wanted challenging endgame content (granted they are of varying degrees of difficulty.) I could also make the argument that I paid for the expansion to be able to get some challenging content in the form of the strikes and I'm disappointed with how easy CO Cm is, therefore I demand it get buffed and become harder to suit my own preference.

I won't argue that there is currently a high dps factor required for Febe CM but with current power creep maybe this was why it is designed this way. Most people are capable of being able to do decent to good damage if they put in the time, effort and research into it, but most of the time people just say "why should I do x in order to get y" or "I'm too busy to be able to work on it" etc. Why can't people just admit they are either not capable or can not be bothered to work towards things? And it's ok if you're not able to do every single strike, raid, fractal, whatever endgame content in the game. If you really want something then shouldn't you work towards it? Most of us get taught this when growing up.

Febe Cm is currently too difficult and anet will probably make adjustments once they have had enough time to look at the data, but this does not mean that it should be achievable to every player level just because they bought the expansion.

Edit: altered last sentence from accessible to achievable as the content can be accessed by anyone but not everyone will be able to be successful in the encounter.

Edited March 5 by Dibit.6259

[Vekaiel.8493]

1 hour ago, Dibit.6259 said:

I don't agree with your statement of being entitled to get everything included in the expansion because you paid for it. This argument has been used too many times to justify easy or free content/rewards for little to no effort. This is just a small percentage of the expansion you paid for and was designed for those who wanted challenging endgame content (granted they are of varying degrees of difficulty.) I could also make the argument that I paid for the expansion to be able to get some challenging content in the form of the strikes and I'm disappointed with how easy CO Cm is, therefore I demand it get buffed and become harder to suit my own preference.

I won't argue that there is currently a high dps factor required for Febe CM but with current power creep maybe this was why it is designed this way. Most people are capable of being able to do decent to good damage if they put in the time, effort and research into it, but most of the time people just say "why should I do x in order to get y" or "I'm too busy to be able to work on it" etc. Why can't people just admit they are either not capable or can not be bothered to work towards things? And it's ok if you're not able to do every single strike, raid, fractal, whatever endgame content in the game. If you really want something then shouldn't you work towards it? Most of us get taught this when growing up.

Febe Cm is currently too difficult and anet will probably make adjustments once they have had enough time to look at the data, but this does not mean that it should be achievable to every player level just because they bought the expansion.

Edit: altered last sentence from accessible to achievable as the content can be accessed by anyone but not everyone will be able to be successful in the encounter.

The thing is it should be doable with every professions as most of the roles. If you play for example dragon age and want to play through nightmare difficulty, you expect to be able to do it on all the classes (mage, rogue and warrior) with any spec. Each will vary a little bit in effort but still doable. Right now for Febe CM, if you bring a team of just melee dps, don't expect a clear in the current state.

This is not just a player problem right now, the profession balance isn't there.

[Drag You Down.2615]

5 hours ago, Dibit.6259 said:

I won't argue that there is currently a high dps factor required for Febe CM but with current power creep maybe this was why it is designed this way. Most people are capable of being able to do decent to good damage if they put in the time, effort and research into it, but most of the time people just say "why should I do x in order to get y" or "I'm too busy to be able to work on it" etc. Why can't people just admit they are either not capable or can not be bothered to work towards things? And it's ok if you're not able to do every single strike, raid, fractal, whatever endgame content in the game. If you really want something then shouldn't you work towards it? Most of us get taught this when growing up.

My argument is not that there should be no challenging content. I was trying to say that the paid content in a game MUST be engaging for everyone, despite of the difficulty and ability of achieving it. 

A content can certainly be very difficult and complicated, but engaging and interesting at the same time so most people will want to do it, even they may not be able to pass the mechanics. Some CMs did a very good job, like W7cm, KOcm, OLCcm, and even HTcm. Because there is hope for people that they believe they can achieve it. The problem is the use of dps check. It makes the encounter straightly impossible for people below the boundary, and this boundary is way too high in TOFcm. For TOFcm only probably less than 100 people (for example) in the game can do it. Then this content is very likely to be ignored, because even the people who can do it will not be able to clear it regularly. 

The dps check is a way to increase the difficulty but it doesn't provide excitement and interest. If it is caused by the current power creep, then what need to be solve is power creep not giving us this. Increasing the dps check will just prompt the power creep to go even further because if other people want to clear this, they must have higher dps. 

Also, you can't deny that this content it very unfriendly for the general PvE community. If they don't nerf it, it will certainly impact on the sells of the next expansion. Because the market is not decided by the minority, they have learned that already. 

And the sin of CO cm is actually not because it's too easy. Its dps check is actually not low, how come it is easy. It is not easy for a lot of people in lfg. The problem is its lack of creativity. The entire combat is dull, because there is only green, cc, spread, aoes. Nothing else. Players have less control of the mechanics and we just do it blindly. I can imagine that if they make green like TOF cm, and change her push during phasing to a continuous fullscreen pull like the green in OLC, it will be much more fun, even with lower dps check.

What we need is the mechanical complexity, not dps check. There cannot be no dps check, but they should use it in the right way. 

Edited March 5 by Drag You Down.2615

[mandala.8507]

Nah, I changed my mind. I think it's super important that the 40 players who could actually meet the mechanical and community networking requirements to be able to prog this encounter get a shot at it. I mean, there has to be a variety of content. Two incredibly easy normal modes that anyone can do that are arguably easier than the story encounters. 1 CM that is semi-difficult, but probably easier than a large portion of raid bosses. And then this encounter for 40 people.

Not everything has to be for the "playerbase minus those 40 people" crowd, guys. Those 40 people are just as important a group for the health and future of GW2 as the rest of us. 🙂

[Cyninja.2954]

13 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Nah, I changed my mind. I think it's super important that the 40 players who could actually meet the mechanical and community networking requirements to be able to prog this encounter get a shot at it. I mean, there has to be a variety of content. Two incredibly easy normal modes that anyone can do that are arguably easier than the story encounters. 1 CM that is semi-difficult, but probably easier than a large portion of raid bosses. And then this encounter for 40 people.

Not everything has to be for the "playerbase minus those 40 people" crowd, guys. Those 40 people are just as important a group for the health and future of GW2 as the rest of us. 🙂

Those 40 players might have created more buzz and visibility for the game than the entire community combined this past week. Then once the content is re-balanced, it will become available to a lot more players, maybe even some new players which noticed the game because of the aforementioned visibility.

Seems kind of a good deal to me.

Then again, maybe adding more lackluster content which everyone just steams through on the first day to get their 20 second dopamine fix, forgetting the content right after (and some running to the forums complaining that there is nothing to do), while no one outside the game gives a flying *****, indeed is the healthier approach. /s

[maxwelgm.4315]

On 3/3/2024 at 10:45 PM, Drag You Down.2615 said:

Also, add to your point. Most CMs are actually very encouraging. The difference between the NM and CM are reasonable, such as W4 CM, W7 CM, OLC CM, AH CM. Even for HT CM, many casual players could participate the prog attempts and enjoy. Those CMs are exclusive, but only for their rewards and achievements, not participation.

On the other hand, TOF CM's boundary is way too high. If they don't lower the requirement, like you said, probably no one will do that again. It is very unfriendly to the general players, and the reward is not good enough for hardcore players to spend so much time on it every week. I don't know which part is wrong, the marketing or design. Are they going to give up the general pve player base? Or is it just a bad approach and execution of the design?

I think this point is being heavily overlooked. No matter whether or not you like the direction they took with the encounter, it must be acknowledged it's a complete U-turn from where they were heading before. Most importantly, it came with no warning whatsoever. HTCM was marketed as being the pinnacle encounter and when they delivered a lot of the backlash was dampened by the fact that people knew beforehand what was coming, they just didn't know how intense it would be. Nevertheless any strike CM group who were progging other encounters went ahead to plan for the new one and start having a feel for the encounter even before established strats came up.

Now with ToF CM (and oddly I see people actually defending this) there's a lot more arguments favoring the buzz and "events" it generates outside of the game than how people are excited to try it out. In fact even people who regularly clear CMs are waiting for the patch or waiting for others to think of better strategies before tackling the encounter. This to me is a combination of Anet not giving any warning - so most groups who'd try it from the get go have disbanded and people have to regroup, but also the encounter is hilariously different from the rest of the game in terms of balance, to a point where it's literally comical - disparity this large doesn't bode well in the long term and they would do better to actually state if their design intent is to keep up the pace of releasing this type of encounter of if this was a one-off for some reason.

[Salt Mode.3780]

55 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Those 40 players might have created more buzz and visibility for the game than the entire community combined this past week. Then once the content is re-balanced, it will become available to a lot more players, maybe even some new players which noticed the game because of the aforementioned visibility.

Seems kind of a good deal to me.

Then again, maybe adding more lackluster content which everyone just steams through on the first day to get their 20 second dopamine fix, forgetting the content right after (and some running to the forums complaining that there is nothing to do), while no one outside the game gives a flying *****, indeed is the healthier approach. /s

I don't know what kind of buzz this content creates no matter how you spin it. Anet has a problem advertising their game to begin with, this is no different than the buzz HTCM created. The only thing that will be remembered of this fight is how meme it was with the bugs and the nerfs with the terrible fixed comps.

Edited March 6 by Salt Mode.3780

[Zok.4956]

On 2/29/2024 at 7:41 PM, Delita Silverburg.8632 said:

Seems like this is designed for the top 1% of the top1% and no one else. (...) You have to be extremely dedicated in progression, and even with that have some unrealistic dps check to reach.

The funny thing is: I've been reading this kind of reaction from non-raiders since Anet brought the first raid into the game in 2015.

 

On 2/29/2024 at 7:41 PM, Delita Silverburg.8632 said:

Dedicated raiders who like to clear CMs each week, don't want to touch this thing.

I think it's perfectly fine that there is a special challenge for the very good players who have the other CMs on "farm mode". Not every CM should be so easy that it goes into “farm mode” a week or so after release.

Raids, strikes and the other CMs are not for every player. Not every CM has to be for every CM player.

 

BTW: Maybe the CM is way overtuned or has some bugs. That's a possibility. I guess, Anet will fix it / make it easier  then.

 

[Zok.4956]

On 3/3/2024 at 6:16 PM, Drag You Down.2615 said:

Also, when a PAYED content is dedicated to less than 1% of people, the game is going to have some serious problem.
(...)
I was trying to say that the paid content in a game MUST be engaging for everyone,

Not everything in the game is for everyone. Not everything in a game MUST be engaging for everyone. And the more challenging content is, the fewer players can complete it. There's plenty else in the game for those players who can't handle or don't like the content to play.

Of course, challenging content that is only for a small group of players also has its place in the game. I also think your argument is wrong because it could also deny the general right to exist for raids/strikes in the game. Because GW2 is not a game that is primarily aimed at raiders.

Edited March 6 by Zok.4956

[Drag You Down.2615]

9 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

Not everything in the game is for everyone. Not everything in a game MUST be engaging for everyone. And the more challenging content is, the fewer players can complete it. There's plenty else in the game for those players who can't handle or don't like the content to play.

Of course, challenging content that is only for a small group of players also has its place in the game. I also think your argument is wrong because it could also deny the general right to exist for raids/strikes in the game. Because GW2 is not a game that is primarily aimed at raiders.

If you are talking about solo game design, then yes. If you are talking about this kind of mmorpg, then no.

You know that GW2 had a low period for quite long right? Have you thought about why? When you are saying this, you are literally kicking most players out. If you are the dev of this game, have you thought about what may people think?

The raid was NOT successful, this was recognized by themselves. More recently, due to power creep, they started to be popular, even I thought the power creep is way too much.

[Cyninja.2954]

2 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I don't know what kind of buzz this content creates no matter how you spin it. Anet has a problem advertising their game to begin with, this is no different than the buzz HTCM created. The only thing that will be remembered of this fight is how meme it was with the bugs and the nerfs with the terrible fixed comps.

Any "buzz" is more than what any other way of releasing this content would have brought.

You think ANYONE cares about ANY encounter in a game they don't play which they don;t see? The vast majority of players in THIS game already don't care for the majority of its content. Do some basic research on completion rates of story, metas, instances, etc. Suffice to say, that content is beyond invisible to anyone outside of this game.

Fine, have it be remembered for that. It will be SOMETHING to remember at least. What is the last thing that was worth remembering in this game in any of the other content? CO CM and the 3 days of complaints it brought? Dragon's End?

Yes, Arenanet has a problem advertising their game. I fail to see how attempting SOMETHING to make this more visible is in any way the wrong step to take. Instead of living in your own GW2 bubble, maybe try to expand and consider what might reach other players. There are tons of players to this day which think GW2 is a failed pvp game which was stopped being developed years back.

Edited March 6 by Cyninja.2954

[Zok.4956]

2 hours ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

You know that GW2 had a low period for quite long right? Have you thought about why?

I do not know what you mean. The game has been doing quite well financially in recent years (compared to previous years around the big layoffs) if you look at the sales figures. And yes, I (whenever there are new quarterly sales figures) think about why and how thoses numbers could be explained (or not).

 

2 hours ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

The raid was NOT successful, this was recognized by themselves.

Wrong. The raids were successful. Thats what Anet said. But since they are only used by a small portion of players (which is normal for any game that doesn't revolve primarily around raids) and due to different management, among other things, they have changed their strategy to try to continue to offer challenging group content for these players. But with content that costs less to produce. That's why the strikes were introduced.

 

2 hours ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

When you are saying this, you are literally kicking most players out.

You sound like some of the "open world" players who feel excluded because there are raids and strikes in the game.

 

[fortclawy.2793]

The encounter is hard because it is designed to be hard. Just do the content you enjoy. No need to spoil on other people's fun. It's obviously released either towards a certain demographic, or to encourage/elevate the level of play. It's not like you are at a disadvantage by not doing the strike. Anet will NOT release strikes of this level only moving forward. Haven't they already released two NMs and one CM that doesn't need you to think to clear? 

 

You like content where you can just lay back and braindead and be able to clear in 8 minutes. I like contents that are challenging and require team coordination. There are contents for both. Don't whine over 1 of only 2 contents in the game on this level lmao.

Edited March 6 by fortclawy.2793

[Dibit.6259]

20 hours ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

My argument is not that there should be no challenging content. I was trying to say that the paid content in a game MUST be engaging for everyone, despite of the difficulty and ability of achieving it. 

A content can certainly be very difficult and complicated, but engaging and interesting at the same time so most people will want to do it, even they may not be able to pass the mechanics. Some CMs did a very good job, like W7cm, KOcm, OLCcm, and even HTcm. Because there is hope for people that they believe they can achieve it. The problem is the use of dps check. It makes the encounter straightly impossible for people below the boundary, and this boundary is way too high in TOFcm. For TOFcm only probably less than 100 people (for example) in the game can do it. Then this content is very likely to be ignored, because even the people who can do it will not be able to clear it regularly. 

The dps check is a way to increase the difficulty but it doesn't provide excitement and interest. If it is caused by the current power creep, then what need to be solve is power creep not giving us this. Increasing the dps check will just prompt the power creep to go even further because if other people want to clear this, they must have higher dps. 

Also, you can't deny that this content it very unfriendly for the general PvE community. If they don't nerf it, it will certainly impact on the sells of the next expansion. Because the market is not decided by the minority, they have learned that already. 

And the sin of CO cm is actually not because it's too easy. Its dps check is actually not low, how come it is easy. It is not easy for a lot of people in lfg. The problem is its lack of creativity. The entire combat is dull, because there is only green, cc, spread, aoes. Nothing else. Players have less control of the mechanics and we just do it blindly. I can imagine that if they make green like TOF cm, and change her push during phasing to a continuous fullscreen pull like the green in OLC, it will be much more fun, even with lower dps check.

What we need is the mechanical complexity, not dps check. There cannot be no dps check, but they should use it in the right way. 

So you have a problem with the fight's desgin rather than the fact it's difficult? Then please write this rather than resorting to "I paid money".

And also on that point this is more your preference than a problem. Some may like the fact it has high hp because it means it requires being efficient and a certain level of performance that people strive for and enjoy.

Not every strike needs to be one size fits all.

Also i've personally enjoyd the mechanics I've experienced in Febe cm (I joined a blind run with my guild on its release). We didn't get far past 80-70% but it was fun to try and figure out how to optimize and progress. I'm probably not at the level to conquer this cm yet but I'm working towards getting to that point which I find exciting and fun.

 

I believe there should be cms like Co, but also cms like Ht and Febe. Let people have some goals to aspire to as they improve in the game.

Edited March 6 by Dibit.6259
Typos

[mandala.8507]

11 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Those 40 players might have created more buzz and visibility for the game than the entire community combined this past week. Then once the content is re-balanced, it will become available to a lot more players, maybe even some new players which noticed the game because of the aforementioned visibility.

Seems kind of a good deal to me.

So to be real for a second, I'm gonna explain why this claim is entirely wishful thinking on your part.

Teapot is the top streamer for GW2 pretty much all the time. This is not debatable. For the first 3 days of this patch, he had avg. viewers: 2.6k, 2.0k, 1.9k. For peak viewership on those streams he had: 4.1k, 2.7k, 2.4k. And recall, this is the top streamer for the game while Twitch drops are going on. And your claim is that this encounter specifically is generating a lot of buzz and visibility.

Well, that ain't true, sorry to say.

Last content patch (with the CM encounter he oneshot) had his stream's first 3 days at avg. viewers: 2.9k, 1.7k, 1.6k. And his peak viewership for those days was: 5.4k, 3.4k, 2.4k. So average viewership for Teapot between those two patches was almost identical, and peak viewership across those first 3 days of the patch was actually better for the Through the Veil patch.

Now, if you go a little further out the avg. viewership holds better for this current patch, but suffice it to say that these are not mindblowing numbers. The vast, vast majority of these viewers are GW2 regulars, and the boost in viewership clearly has much less to do with the quality of the content than you might think.

Are these great numbers for Teapot? Absolutely. He's probably very happy to have basically 2x-3x more engagement with his channel during these Twitch drop cycles for these SotO patches.

But are these compelling numbers from Arenanet's perspective? IMO, not really. It really depends on how much they're having to pay Twitch (Edit: they cost nothing, as far as I can tell, but you have to set up distribution which is a job for someone) to get these drop campaigns each patch, but unless it's borderline free, this probably isn't a great return on investment for them, at least for these SotO patches. For other drop runs they've done, it probably was worth it, like for the Steam launch or the base SotO expansion launch where viewership for GW2 on Twitch was actually massive, but these ones have been pretty lukewarm.

And Teapot's viewership is still absolutely dwarfed by the combination of the other top streamers who aren't focusing on this CM content over this drop cycle.

The SC dudes are getting good viewership too, but tbh, if you're finding their streams, you already play GW2. Twitch is all about consistency and they stream basically never, so if you're seeing their channels before you find any of the others, you aren't someone Arenanet is still trying to win over. You're already here.

So yeah, no, I'd have to hard disagree that this Cerus CM is generating impactful buzz or visibility for the game. The data I'm seeing does not support that claim. It's pleasing the select few people with the time, connections, and skill to play it in it's current state (at most a few dozen players), and disappointing everyone else who was waiting for this encounter, but have no realistic shot of attempting it rn.

(And I'm using Twitch Tracker to get this data, in case people were wondering)

Edited March 6 by mandala.8507
correction

[Salt Mode.3780]

4 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Any "buzz" is more than what any other way of releasing this content would have brought.

You think ANYONE cares about ANY encounter in a game they don't play which they don;t see? The vast majority of players in THIS game already don't care for the majority of its content. Do some basic research on completion rates of story, metas, instances, etc. Suffice to say, that content is beyond invisible to anyone outside of this game.

Fine, have it be remembered for that. It will be SOMETHING to remember at least. What is the last thing that was worth remembering in this game in any of the other content? CO CM and the 3 days of complaints it brought? Dragon's End?

Yes, Arenanet has a problem advertising their game. I fail to see how attempting SOMETHING to make this more visible is in any way the wrong step to take. Instead of living in your own GW2 bubble, maybe try to expand and consider what might reach other players. There are tons of players to this day which think GW2 is a failed pvp game which was stopped being developed years back.

At the end of the day the current buzz to this fight is tons of people who have cleared all the high end CM and hard content are not touching this fight due to the current state which is no different than people complaining about dagda CM or dragon's end. It is quite contradictory when you say that content is invisible to anyone outside of this game but at the same time lash out that I am living in my own GW2 bubble when no one outside of the "GW2 bubble" cares about what the hell Cerus CM is because again you stated yourself "content is beyond invisible to anyone outside of this game." So again I fail to see where who this is going to expand to besides the small number of players who actually do hard content.

As far as it being a failed PvP game it's because ANET decided there was more money to be made in PvE casual then more PvP competitive play this is very apparent with the changes in PvE compared to sPvP and WvW. However mechanic wise and combat wise GW2 was made for PvP and competitive play. You want to talk about successful PvE content games go look at WoW or FFXIV. At the end of the day due to how combat was made for the intention of being more PvP style oriented, this is the reason why the game gets more and more difficult to balance with new specs that came out throughout the years and now with the new weapons. 

Edited March 6 by Salt Mode.3780

[Dibit.6259]

On 3/5/2024 at 3:15 PM, Vekaiel.8493 said:

The thing is it should be doable with every professions as most of the roles. If you play for example dragon age and want to play through nightmare difficulty, you expect to be able to do it on all the classes (mage, rogue and warrior) with any spec. Each will vary a little bit in effort but still doable. Right now for Febe CM, if you bring a team of just melee dps, don't expect a clear in the current state.

This is not just a player problem right now, the profession balance isn't there.

Anet's balance philosophy will never 100% work, there will always be certain classes that do X better in certain fights, the playerbase has always had to adjust or play different classes/builds for different content to get the best results and this will continue.

I agree febe cm has its issues and anet have already said they will adjust things based on what data they get back but I don't think nerfing it to oblivion is justified. We rarely get this level of difficulty in the game and I don't think anet should be forced to never do such content because some people are unable to do it or it requires more effort.

Edit: Anet can not cater to all but they cater to the majority more often than not. So why is it bad that they had the odd content that cater for those who enjoy something more challenging?

Edited March 6 by Dibit.6259
Added more

[Cyninja.2954]

14 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

At the end of the day the current buzz to this fight is tons of people who have cleared all the high end CM and hard content are not touching this fight due to the current state which is no different than people complaining about dagda CM or dragon's end. It is quite contradictory when you say that content is invisible to anyone outside of this game but at the same time lash out that I am living in my own GW2 bubble when no one outside of the "GW2 bubble" cares about what the hell Cerus CM is because again you stated yourself "content is beyond invisible to anyone outside of this game." So again I fail to see where who this is going to expand to besides the small number of players who actually do hard content.

and all of those players can currently hope that the game sees some promotion, then jump into the fight come the 19th.

I'm sorry, but I have no respect for shortsightedness from players that put their own 5 seconds of dopamine over the longevity of the game. Case in point: if this approach of releases sees some success, there is a chance that future content will be more balanced towards ToF CM and not CO CM. That is something which dedicated players that enjoy difficult content SHOULD be happy with.

Does this mean that the actual "release" of the CM is later than anticipated? Sure. By around 2-3 weeks. Big woop. Should the fight release so bugged? Absolutely not. Could there be a net benefit to the game long-term? Maybe but one can hope.

Quote

As far as it being a failed PvP game it's because ANET decided there was more money to be made in PvE casual then more PvP competitive play this is very apparent with the changes in PvE compared to sPvP and WvW. However mechanic wise and combat wise GW2 was made for PvP and competitive play. You want to talk about successful PvE content games go look at WoW or FFXIV. At the end of the day due to how combat was made for the intention of being more PvP style oriented, this is the reason why the game gets more and more difficult to balance with new specs that came out throughout the years and now with the new weapons. 

and all of that doesn't matter because in the end:: that's the perception in place right now and it needs changing for this game to keep seeing development.

[Salt Mode.3780]

22 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

and all of those players can currently hope that the game sees some promotion, then jump into the fight come the 19th.

I'm sorry, but I have no respect for shortsightedness from players that put their own 5 seconds of dopamine over the longevity of the game. Case in point: if this approach of releases sees some success, there is a chance that future content will be more balanced towards ToF CM and not CO CM. That is something which dedicated players that enjoy difficult content SHOULD be happy with.

Does this mean that the actual "release" of the CM is later than anticipated? Sure. By around 2-3 weeks. Big woop. Should the fight release so bugged? Absolutely not. Could there be a net benefit to the game long-term? Maybe but one can hope.

and all of that doesn't matter because in the end:: that's the perception in place right now and it needs changing for this game to keep seeing development.

This isn't short sightedness more or less how absurd it went from CO CM to Cerus CM with no in between. If anything it just highlights that ANET don't know well enough about their game because they themselves have not beaten Cerus CM to balance around out. All they can do is look at the current what 4 groups that are competitively attempting it for world first and see what adjustments they need to do. This isn't shortsightedness this is fact that devs that don't play their own game and expect the playerbase to come up with the conclusion for them is a recipe for failure and disaster. Bugs that would've not been there if it was first playtested properly but not doing so. 

If what I said at the end of the day doesn't matter then don't bring up the topic for which I am just replying to you how wrong you are. 

Edited March 6 by Salt Mode.3780

[Cyninja.2954]

24 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

This isn't short sightedness more or less how absurd it went from CO CM to Cerus CM with no in between. If anything it just highlights that ANET don't know well enough about their game because they themselves have not beaten Cerus CM to balance around out. All they can do is look at the current what 4 groups that are competitively attempting it for world first and see what adjustments they need to do. This isn't shortsightedness this is fact that devs that don't play their own game and expect the playerbase to come up with the conclusion for them is a recipe for failure and disaster. Bugs that would've not been there if it was first playtested properly but not doing so. 

If what I said at the end of the day doesn't matter then don't bring up the topic for which I am just replying to you how wrong you are. 

You are mixing and misrepresenting the words I said. It is shortsightedness to criticize content which promotes the game. The gap between CO CM and ToF CM is not ideal, and it does nothing to address the fact that ToF is over tuned, yet because it is over tuned on launch it's not cleared and stale 5 minutes later. Also given how over tuned ToF CM is now, it would matter little if there was any content in-between. That wouldn't change the amount of players capable of clearing it. It would merely give players which are less dedicated more content to play (which would be good for hardcore players, sure).

The developers being able to clear or not clear content is irrelevant. No MMORPG devs can. Not in WoW, not in FF14, not anywhere because developers don't have the luxury of 24/7 gaming their product.

What is irrelevant is HOW outside perception developed for the game, because that's in the past. That's why I separated that part of your statement. It's irrelevant because the thing that matters now is not how we got to where we are, but how do we get out of this spot. If having visibility for PvE content can help shift this perception, I am all for it.

Edited March 6 by Cyninja.2954

[Salt Mode.3780]

10 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You are mixing and misrepresenting the words I said. It is shortsightedness to criticize content which promotes the game. The gap between CO CM and ToF CM is not ideal, and it does nothing to address the fact that ToF is over tuned, yet because it is over tuned on launch it's not cleared and stale 5 minutes later. Also given how over tuned ToF CM is now, it would matter little if there was any content in-between. That wouldn't change the amount of players capable of clearing it. It would merely give players which are less dedicated more content to play (which would be good for hardcore players, sure).

The developers being able to clear or not clear content is irrelevant. No MMORPG devs can. Not in WoW, not in FF14, not anywhere because developers don't have the luxury of 24/7 gaming their product.

What is irrelevant is HOW outside perception developed for the game, because that's in the past. That's why I separated that part of your statement. It's irrelevant because the thing that matters now is not how we got to where we are, but how do we get out of this spot. If having visibility for PvE content can help shift this perception, I am all for it.

If the content that were released was consistent thought-out the years then I would 100% agree in terms of promoting the game however that is not the case. 

Developers may not even need to clear it to playtest and understand bugs that shouldn't be there, It is like ANY job if a cook makes food to know if it is salty or not they don't need to finish the whole dish they just need to taste test it which is the same concept to the devs and their own developed content. 

No, because unless they completely change the current combat system it is still completely relevant towards balancing in both PvE and PvP content. Or why they are not able to implement certain things in PvE due to the combat system.