Anet, lets have a talk about Strike CMs

[Drag You Down.2615]

2 hours ago, Dibit.6259 said:

So you have a problem with the fight's desgin rather than the fact it's difficult? Then please write this rather than resorting to "I paid money".

And also on that point this is more your preference than a problem. Some may like the fact it has high hp because it means it requires being efficient and a certain level of performance that people strive for and enjoy.

Not every strike needs to be one size fits all.

Also i've personally enjoyd the mechanics I've experienced in Febe cm (I joined a blind run with my guild on its release). We didn't get far past 80-70% but it was fun to try and figure out how to optimize and progress. I'm probably not at the level to conquer this cm yet but I'm working towards getting to that point which I find exciting and fun.

 

I believe there should be cms like Co, but also cms like Ht and Febe. Let people have some goals to aspire to as they improve in the game.

You can give any criticism you like, but:

1. I have never said the mechanics in ToF is bad or something. In fact, I gave it a lot compliments in another post. I quite like it, I can feel the creativity in its design. Again, I just don't understand why they put ridiculous dps check with those wonderful designed mechanics together. They suppose to have stronger impact and hit a greater success. Yes, it is a design problem, I even tried it with hardstuck to 50% ish in few hours, but I am not going to do it again. Hard to find group and people have no passion in general. 

2. No more strikes like CO. The new strikes can be like anything, HT, AH, KO, OLC, even boneskinner, even shiverpeak pass, at least you have a jp there, but not CO. CO has no design, just a golem, pure dps check. 

[Dibit.6259]

1 hour ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

You can give any criticism you like, but:

1. I have never said the mechanics in ToF is bad or something. In fact, I gave it a lot compliments in another post. I quite like it, I can feel the creativity in its design. Again, I just don't understand why they put ridiculous dps check with those wonderful designed mechanics together. They suppose to have stronger impact and hit a greater success. Yes, it is a design problem, I even tried it with hardstuck to 50% ish in few hours, but I am not going to do it again. Hard to find group and people have no passion in general. 

2. No more strikes like CO. The new strikes can be like anything, HT, AH, KO, OLC, even boneskinner, even shiverpeak pass, at least you have a jp there, but not CO. CO has no design, just a golem, pure dps check. 

Ok my bad, from what you wrote I assumed you had a problem with mechanics not being engaging/creative to you.

The high dps can also be  considered a mechanic as you need to be balance doing stacking mechanics, avoid aoes and be able to do appropriate damage when you have the window to do so. I agree that the hp on the boss atm is probably too high but I don't think it should be lowered too much either.  From what I read from your previous posts you seem to want it to be so people with lower dps can also pass this cm but I feel like it should be a higher dps boss for groups who want the challenge and to avoid carrying (we already have other cms that don't require as high dps).

Content like Ko, ht and febe cm is that it feels like everyone has a specific role to fill that promotes coordination and contribution from everyone. I get it's not to everyone's tastes but people don't seem to accept for what it is and either work towards it or move on.

Edited March 6 by Dibit.6259

[Ashantara.8731]

On 2/29/2024 at 7:41 PM, Delita Silverburg.8632 said:

Would love to hear other's thoughts or if I'm on an island alone with this. Thanks for reading.

I completely agree with points 1-3. Can't agree on KO CM, I love it.

Your general criticism does hit the nail on the head, though. There is a difference between "a fun challenge" and "insanely difficult", and this difference is especially important when it comes to creating content for a broad playerbase, especially when the scope of content has shrunk. As you stated correctly, we are only getting two Strike CMs per year now, and those should indeed be within reasonable levels of difficulty for the three types of players you mentioned and not be (almost?) impossible to do even for the top tier teams.

[mandala.8507]

So yeah, they agree it should be easier.

But also, very smartly, they are keeping this current version both so they don't interrupt the race, but also so it doesn't turn into something forever gatekept by a huge nerf before people who aren't playing the video game 8+ hours a day get a crack at it.

Will also be super interesting to see how many people attempt to clear it when there's an easier variant that still has CM rewards. While this could set a precedent for more difficulty tiers, it could also prove that tuning a version to this extreme level of difficulty is hitting far too small a demographic.

[maxwelgm.4315]

4 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

So yeah, they agree it should be easier.

But also, very smartly, they are keeping this current version both so they don't interrupt the race, but also so it doesn't turn into something forever gatekept by a huge nerf before people who aren't playing the video game 8+ hours a day get a crack at it.

Will also be super interesting to see how many people attempt to clear it when there's an easier variant that still has CM rewards. While this could set a precedent for more difficulty tiers, it could also prove that tuning a version to this extreme level of difficulty is hitting far too small a demographic.

It's still going to be a CM as the other strikes, it's not "an easy/easier version with CM rewards". And yeah, it pretty much makes everyone happy and a very nice precedent, a lot of the posts in this very topic are basically addressed now.

[Dibit.6259]

Good move from anet, managed to get a good compromise to satisfy both sides.

[Drag You Down.2615]

3 hours ago, Dibit.6259 said:

you seem to want it to be so people with lower dps can also pass this cm but I feel like it should be a higher dps boss for groups who want the challenge and to avoid carrying (we already have other cms that don't require as high dps).

This is actually one of my ideas and I fully understand that if you don't agree.

I would like to see the mechanics that allows people with low dps with extremely low possibilities to pass, but not 0, and people with high dps with higher possibilities to pass, but even much more difficult than the current TOF CM mechanics. But of course, they should do some dps, low dps doesn't mean they can afk and get the reward.

They should learn to not rely too much on DPS check, it is a very basic function and it is very important I agree, but it does not help with design and community engagement. Hard content doesn't mean it needs to be all about dps, there are much more things like instant reaction, calculation of timing, logic problem solving, and coordination between all 10 players. 

For example, what if there is an encounter, the players needs to stand on 8 floating flatforms, but each platform can only stand maximum 2 people, more than that will cause the platform falls and players on that platform instantly die.

Edited March 6 by Drag You Down.2615

[Drag You Down.2615]

1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:

So yeah, they agree it should be easier.

But also, very smartly, they are keeping this current version both so they don't interrupt the race, but also so it doesn't turn into something forever gatekept by a huge nerf before people who aren't playing the video game 8+ hours a day get a crack at it.

Will also be super interesting to see how many people attempt to clear it when there's an easier variant that still has CM rewards. While this could set a precedent for more difficulty tiers, it could also prove that tuning a version to this extreme level of difficulty is hitting far too small a demographic.

I think this is probably the best way for now, since many people are asking for this, including me, although I did not only want lower dps check but some thing more stimulating. It is also sad to see that it becomes "easier." They should add the mechanical difficulties of this CM to compensate and balance. But that also means extra works, since they have a fractal and its cm to design in the next few months, they are probably very busy.

[Dibit.6259]

1 minute ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

This is actually one of my ideas and I fully understand that if you don't agree.

I would like to see the mechanics that allows people with low dps with extremely low possibilities to pass, but not 0, and people with high dps with higher possibilities to pass, but even much more difficult than the current TOF CM mechanics. 

They should learn to not rely on DPS check, it is a very basic function, but it does not help with design and community engagement. Hard content doesn't mean it needs to be all about dps, there are much more things like instant reaction, calculation of timing, logic problem solving, and coordination between all 10 players. 

For example, what if there is an encounter, the players needs to stand on 8 floating flatforms, but each platform can only stand maximum 2 people, more than that will cause the platform falls and players on that platform instantly die.

The dps check is there to make sure people don't breeze through the bosses hp that they skip phases/mechanics. Anet are probably aware of current bench marks and performance in the game (they need to be to do balancing), so they need to make a boss where those who are most likely to do the cms (those with high dps), which means higher boss dps. Sure sometimes this can be way off with this but then they monitor and make adjustments like they have done with ht and now febe cms.

I'm glad they have decided to make two cm modes now so both sides can experience the cm but I also fear that people will push for the harder content to be nerfed again. Cm's were meant to be for those looking for a challenge but it seems the narrative is that people on the lower end of performance get upset by their inability to do this content and claim it unfair then demand nerfs to suit there needs rather than adapt and improve upon themselves. Where has the idea that a challenge is meant to difficult and require effort and patience? There is so much content in this game for those of that level but as soon as something is created for those who like challenging content people start to complain.

[Delita Silverburg.8632]

Circling back to this post I created, and I can see that there is a lot of diversified opinions on the subject. Thanks for all the discussion everyone!

I've been giving this some thought myself as well, and I think one of the reasons why many of us are frustrated is that we only got 2 encounters this year. I was kind of expecting the devs to be able to push out many more bosses with the Strikes model. SInce it's just 1 room with a boss with mechanics, I really expected to see upwards of 6 different encounters a year. I get that it takes a TON of dev cost to create a whole Raid wing, with the environment, story, encounter and even adding CM mechanics. But since they are just reusing assets from the main story of the expacs, I really thought we'd get way more than TWO encounters a year...

I think that's the core of the issue, because if either of the two are bad to the main community interested in 10 person instanced content, you're going to find many more people upset. People are already mad that Raids have been abandoned for strikes, but it feels like even more of a kick in the stomach to only get 2 encounters and lets be honest, one is extremely lackluster of just "random bs mechanics go" (aka if I have to spread one more time for dagda im just gonna lose my mind and gg) and the other is currently the equivalent of "running your head into a brick wall for 80+ hours of progression" knowing full well you aren't going to get a kill.

But if say, we had 4-6 encounters instead, we'd be able to pick and choose which ones to put on farm and which ones we'd want to clear just once for a title/achievement. I think it's a big talking point for Anet to think about imo.

[Drag You Down.2615]

2 minutes ago, Dibit.6259 said:

The dps check is there to make sure people don't breeze through the bosses hp that they skip phases/mechanics. Anet are probably aware of current bench marks and performance in the game (they need to be to do balancing), so they need to make a boss where those who are most likely to do the cms (those with high dps), which means higher boss dps. Sure sometimes this can be way off with this but then they monitor and make adjustments like they have done with ht and now febe cms.

I'm glad they have decided to make two cm modes now so both sides can experience the cm but I also fear that people will push for the harder content to be nerfed again. Cm's were meant to be for those looking for a challenge but it seems the narrative is that people on the lower end of performance get upset by their inability to do this content and claim it unfair then demand nerfs to suit there needs rather than adapt and improve upon themselves. Where has the idea that a challenge is meant to difficult and require effort and patience? There is so much content in this game for those of that level but as soon as something is created for those who like challenging content people start to complain.

I mean, people always do this. Some people were also saying that the challenging content supposed to be locked for 0.000001% people, which is the part I fundamentally disagree, because it is possible to let this game die, even with very little possibility. Not because they don't have other contents to play, but the attitude they feel from whoever create those contents which are not designed for them, will let them feel unbalanced. And this "them" is the majority.

But glad to see their first move, I do feel like they should add more scales to the difficulty levels. Different strikes have different themes and mechanic types. What if I wanna play HT but in shiverpeak level? Or I wanna play OLC in this current TOF level?

[Drag You Down.2615]

15 minutes ago, Dibit.6259 said:

(they need to be to do balancing)

They really need to. I'm not against using dps check, but I worry the push of dps check boundary will prompt people to ask for even higher dps.

I would actually expect the general dps output for ALL professions, especially the professions that can do dps very easily, (yes, I am talking about cvirt), to be reduced at least 20% in a year, and healing reduced 10%. But it is skill design team's responsibility, people like cmc, and Taylor, the instanced pve should not compensate for that.

[GeraldBC.4927]

On 3/3/2024 at 1:43 PM, Morte de Angelis.7986 said:

too easy people complain its too easy and was over too fast. 

The kind of people complaining it's 'too easy' and citing how long it took the world first guild (who got to practise the same bosses for months on the ptr) to beat them, like that somehow speaks to the experience of the average player, are not people who actually play the content they belittle so much. They only watch others do it on twitch. They specifically watch the world's top raiders do the content, the world's top raiders make the content look easy and that shapes the uninvolved viewer's impression of how difficult the mythic bosses are. Then, they take to the forums with that impression and claim it's too easy and that Blizzard should make the next tier or expansion harder, which they then do. 

"Noo its too easy you need to make it harder" is a meme complaint. It is entirely performative, a form of posturing and self-aggrandizement rather than an actual criticism. The path WoW has gone down should serve as a lesson that no matter how difficult you make your next tier, no matter how unforgiving you make the mechanics and enrage timers, no matter how many mechanics you stack on top of each other, no matter how much you randomize components to force people to organize on-the-fly (or rather wait for addon developers to automate it) it is never enough.

Edited March 7 by GeraldBC.4927

[A Hamster.2580]

24 minutes ago, GeraldBC.4927 said:

The path WoW has gone down should serve as a lesson that no matter how difficult you make your next tier, no matter how unforgiving you make the mechanics and enrage timers, no matter how many mechanics you stack on top of each other, no matter how much you randomize components to force people to organize on-the-fly (or rather wait for addon developers to automate it) it is never enough.

As it should be. To have ambition and constantly striving to overcome limits is to be human. It is what separates us from animals.

 

Thank you Anet for finally not caving to the unambitious casuals and taking this difficulty away from us. We now have a title that genuinely lets us know when we are in the presence of greatness. Hopefully this title will not be sellable due to power creep or some future exploits.

[maxwelgm.4315]

6 hours ago, A Hamster.2580 said:

As it should be. To have ambition and constantly striving to overcome limits is to be human. It is what separates us from animals.

 

Thank you Anet for finally not caving to the unambitious casuals and taking this difficulty away from us. We now have a title that genuinely lets us know when we are in the presence of greatness. Hopefully this title will not be sellable due to power creep or some future exploits.

I love the irony of this post citing its own calling out, never change twitch viewers

[Jedrik.3109]

This thread is everything that is wrong with flaccid opinions on balance that our community has spewed for years. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

On 3/6/2024 at 5:55 PM, A Hamster.2580 said:

As it should be. To have ambition and constantly striving to overcome limits is to be human. It is what separates us from animals.

 

Thank you Anet for finally not caving to the unambitious casuals and taking this difficulty away from us. We now have a title that genuinely lets us know when we are in the presence of greatness. Hopefully this title will not be sellable due to power creep or some future exploits.

Let it be known that neckbeards in bathrobes with titles represent the pinnacle of ambition and human achievement, you casual scrubs!

[Ashantara.8731]

On 3/7/2024 at 1:55 AM, A Hamster.2580 said:

Hopefully this title will not be sellable due to power creep or some future exploits.

Who will want to waste their Mystic Coins on buying the Cerus CM when its infusion is so undesireable? 😄

Edited March 9 by Ashantara.8731
Added YT link.

[maxwelgm.4315]

21 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Who will want to waste their Mystic Coins on buying the Cerus CM when its infusion is so undesireable? 😄

Whether or not a market of buyers appear will depend entirely on if the legendary title has AP tied to it, the armor/infusions people get actually are not quite the main appeal

[Ashantara.8731]

32 minutes ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

Whether or not a market of buyers appear will depend entirely on if the legendary title has AP tied to it, the armor/infusions people get actually are not quite the main appeal

Who will wear their title proudly when they have not achieved it themselves? That's just sad cheating.

I can see why one would want the CM done for the rewards (if they appeal), but titles and AP should be something you achieve yourself.

[Noidea Incognito.9607]

My 2 cents, hate or like it. Its an opinion.

I really hope that (like the rest of the playerbase) the primary reason 0.001% people wanna clear difficult/challenging stuff in games is to

be Very Entertained/have lots of fun,  and not todo it out of a sense of obtaining  "Entitled Prestige"... 

Factual its an Artificial sense of superiority, lets not be in denial and think we are more special then the other.

 

Lets not forget; there all sorts of gamers and the majority of those 0.001% is most likely the type that gets bored easily/doesnt like staleness/adrenaline junkies.

They too need to have their "own thing." within GW2 wich is a replacement for their older games.  

And If someone wants to Buy the infusion/title... let them be... its their own choice/gold/MC's...

maybe you need the infusion  to complete that look or the title has a nice ring to it; Great! go for it.

Cheating? Hm... not really. their legally hired professional players that provide assistance with difficult content.

If you goto a baker and buy a bread,  your gonna call that Cheating too? cause it was not selfmade? *facepalm*

 

Ive got more an issue with the fact they add "succesfull CM req" in the Astral Specials tab. I mean....Really guys?

Thats basicly telling Casual players the following:

"We know CM's are kind of a specialized thing for the 0.001% but we dont like the current payoff/numbers...

so dont mind us passively forcing you to play the CM and succesfully clear it.. if you want those Astral points atleast...

or did you really think we would let you avoid CM's altogether?

Sorry but no, You must be reminded that thanks to your own mediocre skills those Astral Points will forever be out of your reach,

so you better Gitgud and start  raising that 0.001% for us."

 

Team Anet, keep those Astral goals within reasonable boundaries for EVERYONE please.

Let those CM people keep their CM stuff but dont let it seep into the Astral System; that kind of "gatekeeping" is meh.

Edited March 10 by Noidea Incognito.9607

[Dibit.6259]

1 hour ago, Noidea Incognito.9607 said:

My 2 cents, hate or like it. Its an opinion.

I really hope that (like the rest of the playerbase) the primary reason 0.001% people wanna clear difficult/challenging stuff in games is to

be Very Entertained/have lots of fun,  and not todo it out of a sense of obtaining  "Entitled Prestige"... 

Factual its an Artificial sense of superiority, lets not be in denial and think we are more special then the other.

 

Lets not forget; there all sorts of gamers and the majority of those 0.001% is most likely the type that gets bored easily/doesnt like staleness/adrenaline junkies.

They too need to have their "own thing." within GW2 wich is a replacement for their older games.  

And If someone wants to Buy the infusion/title... let them be... its their own choice/gold/MC's...

maybe you need the infusion  to complete that look or the title has a nice ring to it; Great! go for it.

Cheating? Hm... not really. their legally hired professional players that provide assistance with difficult content.

If you goto a baker and buy a bread,  your gonna call that Cheating too? cause it was not selfmade? *facepalm*

 

Ive got more an issue with the fact they add "succesfull CM req" in the Astral Specials tab. I mean....Really guys?

Thats basicly telling Casual players the following:

"We know CM's are kind of a specialized thing for the 0.001% but we dont like the current payoff/numbers...

so dont mind us passively forcing you to play the CM and succesfully clear it.. if you want those Astral points atleast...

or did you really think we would let you avoid CM's altogether?

Sorry but no, You must be reminded that thanks to your own mediocre skills those Astral Points will forever be out of your reach,

so you better Gitgud and start  raising that 0.001% for us."

 

Team Anet, keep those Astral goals within reasonable boundaries for EVERYONE please.

Let those CM people keep their CM stuff but dont let it seep into the Astral System; that kind of "gatekeeping" is meh.

There's a lot of stuff in the Wizard's vault that people dislike/can't do, we gonna remove those too? It's optional and I'm sure anet's reasoning for adding it was not "we're gonna force you to do it" but "hey you considered doing this?". There's plenty of time and other AA rewards to be had to ensure you get all the rewards and the limited time stuff you can get later with the legacy tab.

The only people that really believe in gatekeeping are those unwilling to be proactive and do things for themselves. Yes there are groups that ask for kp but they don't stop you from being able to form your own group instead.

 

There's nothing in game that stops you from being able to do content (other than maybe being level 80), regardless of whether you have the right gear, the right build, experience etc; these factors only increase the likelihood of being successful.

Edited March 10 by Dibit.6259
Typos

[Passerbye.6291]

1 hour ago, Noidea Incognito.9607 said:

Factual its an Artificial sense of superiority, lets not be in denial and think we are more special then the other.

Getting challenge modes done induces a sense of accomplishment for sure, assuming they aren't CO CM that is. I don't know what kind of "special" you mean but I do encounter some very "special" people in this game on a daily basis. For instance a guy playing qdps herald and somehow doing 80% uptime on a stationary boss while the class he plays is literally capable of overcapping quickness uptime with 0 boon duration from gear, just pressing 3 buttons total on an LI setup.
One thing I can tell you is that people who have legitimately completed a good chunk of challenge mode content in this game are statistically better players than those who have not. Surely there will be exceptions to this rule, but 9 times out of 10, someone who has tested themself against the harder content in this game will bring a lot more to a group than someone who hasn't. I prefer this kind of "special" to the kind of "special" the herald I mentioned was, but hey, that's just me.

1 hour ago, Noidea Incognito.9607 said:

Lets not forget; there all sorts of gamers and the majority of those 0.001% is most likely the type that gets bored easily/doesnt like staleness/adrenaline junkies.

I'm pretty sure an adrenaline junkie would have a higher dose of adrenaline watching paint dry than they do going through the majority of content in this game. The game gives you a lot of tools to deal with things, some of us just like to use them, also known as playing the game, not sure how that makes anyone an adrenaline junkie.

1 hour ago, Noidea Incognito.9607 said:

Ive got more an issue with the fact they add "succesfull CM req" in the Astral Specials tab. I mean....Really guys?

Thats basicly telling Casual players the following:

"We know CM's are kind of a specialized thing for the 0.001% but we dont like the current payoff/numbers...

so dont mind us passively forcing you to play the CM and succesfully clear it.. if you want those Astral points atleast...

or did you really think we would let you avoid CM's altogether?

Sorry but no, You must be reminded that thanks to your own mediocre skills those Astral Points will forever be out of your reach,

so you better Gitgud and start  raising that 0.001% for us."

This would be true, if the game didn't shower you with Astral Acclaim so much so that you are free to ignore whatever task you don't enjoy. In fact, I'm about to blow your mind, you ready? You don't have to craft a legendary armor for Astral Acclaim that's going to be worth about 8 gold in the end either. I know, crazy concept.

1 hour ago, Noidea Incognito.9607 said:

Team Anet, keep those Astral goals within reasonable boundaries for EVERYONE please.

This is how people like you sound to me:
Anette, ANETTE! HOW DARE YOU make content for a different type of player, I feel offended, I'm a single father of 76 and I only play 42 seconds every other month, I should have everything in the game. I've been a loyal customer, if my demands aren't met I'll leave this game! I bought a wing skin the other day btw, which clearly makes me more important than everyone else, so you better listen!

You know what, you lose a lot more Astral Acclaim each day you don't do the dailies, some people can't even login some days, what a horrible company for "gatekeeping" Astral Acclaim right? Oh wait, you don't need the Astral Acclaim from those days to get whatever you want, like you don't need the Astral Acclaim from the CM or the legendary armor.

Man, I've seen so many casual players accomplish amazing things in this game, but it is always the "special" kind of casual that entirely misses the point and complains about being forced to do content they aren't actually forced to do.
 

Edited March 10 by Passerbye.6291

[BatelGeuce.3591]

Guys I don't know about you but I have that feeling like this thread has run its course ...

[Noidea Incognito.9607]

Hm, i think we can add one more, BatelGeuce, some people had the courtesy to reply,

Again; everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but ill stick ofcourse to my own.

But a few things:

1. The post was specific related to the Thread(Strike CM) idk why some add other stuff in or only cherrypick some stuff from the post.

2. You can NEVER have too much Astral Points. In fact people run out fast of it most of the time.

3. There are videogamers that play game(modes) for the Rush/Adrenaline and love that all time high. hence a junkie. Obviously not the themeparkers/stunt types.

4.When i said "special"/"Entitled Prestige" thats the players who get upset when someone else has the same stuff ez simply through a buyer or boost. 

In other words; yes that person over there has same/infusion/gear/title; just like you... wait... you actually thought you was the celestial beacon of creation? oof!

(Im wasnt talking about Players that make an effort to learn about getting good at rotation/class/mechanics/Arclogs etc.)

5.There are casual players and there are "casual players". The casual players that can clear CM's arent your regular casual.  And their also not the majority of players either.

When i opted for the Astral goals to Equalize for everyone i meant everyone... wich means goals at the skill level of Casual players. consider it easy pickins for the Hardcore players aswell.

What falls within the scope of what everyone can do at a casual level should be obvious: the stuff that isnt Raids / Strike CM / Fractal CM.  

(someone mentioned the bad example of the new legendary armor...  you need todo raids or a cm for that? hm.... no? this was a thread about Strike CM's.... right?)

The common goal should be for everyone to maximize their Astral Point gains. So yes; no raid /cm strikes in Special tab, replace with something else wich is reasonable for majority.

 

What can i say... i want EVERYONE to benefit.

Dont call me selfish... Please Sir! it pains my tender soul o7

 

Edited March 10 by Noidea Incognito.9607