Hammer is just worse maces?

[Eurantien.4632]

Hammer has flip skills, but especially for the non-untamed out there, you have to pick one or the other. Namely for PvP settings you're gonna pick normal 3 and 4, and unleashed 2, with 5 being kinda preferential. The reason why is because normal 3 is your CC - land this and you're winning! Unleashed 2 is your damage that wants to follow up on someone being CC'd. And then to land your CC you want to immob them with normal 4, which also gives you prot for some staying power in the fight. 5 is a ranged CC or damage skill, both are solid.

Meanwhile we have Maces. You have the 2 which is kinda meh but ok. With 3 you get a leap with a stun that also heals your pet and gives protection! Which has better range than hammer 3 and its superior CC since stun > daze. Your 4 is GOATED you have a skill that gives stab, does dmg, gives barrier, and removes up to 3 condis - just insane. 5 is a damage skill that ALSO has a CC at the end. Then to add to that! You can RESET all the mace skills with Force of Nature that ALSO gives you +15% bonus dmg AND stability so you can go ham on the bonus round!

So then... this has me wondering? Isn't mace just pretty much all around better than hammer? The answer I think is yes. Which begs the question, why did we get a new weapon set that has the same identity as the old one? And how can these be differentiated moving forward?

 

[Beddo.1907]

Maces can be mixed with other one hand weapons and have lower dps in comparison to hammer, in favour of healing, boons and utility. Hammer is two handed, has higher dps compared to maces and has more non-damage condi.

I think the difference in the kit is big enough to differentiate between the two.

[Oahkahmewolf.6210]

13 hours ago, Eurantien.4632 said:

Which begs the question, why did we get a new weapon set that has the same identity as the old one?

Hammer and Maces are both damage and utility based weapons.

However, The way they distribute their utility and damage is completely different.

Maces: Most of it high damage is through  multi-hit and the weapon have the ability to provide Protection, Regen and healing to your allies.

• Mh weapon is for support,
• Both MH & Off weapon synergies well with Skirmisher because of Hunter's Tactics | Opening Strike isn't really synergistic unless we have a good hard hitting off a hand or swapping to another weapon with a single big hit
• Hunter Tactic just gives you 10% damage and crit in WvW or Spvp, its surprisingly strong with MH mace as it allows off hand mace to unga bunga multi hit damage. With that it mind you also can get access to quick-draw which is actually super useful if you don't succeed in getting a full stack of Nature's growth.
• It has a Growth mechanics that increases healing and damage which hammer does not have.

Hammer: Most of its high damage are through single Big hits, and it has little utility and boon application depending on which weapon ability you pick.

• It has a big single hit making Opening Strike valuable trait for it, with Relic of the Midnight King you can make 3 and 5 a cc skill and go 5 into 2 which if you are running Remorseless this instantly give you Opening Strike which is always 100% crit thanks to Precise Strike you can essentially hit really hard.  
• Its purely Offensive weapon with Defensive capabilities through its offensive abilities. Everything you do with hammer is has to do with (get a hit and get x)
• The only thing that gives you boons or utility without hitting someone is non-leashed hammer 4 for protection.

 

Hammer and Maces are completely unique weapons in their own rights, I just think you haven't considered fully analyzing or trying out different combination

Edited April 4 by Oahkahmewolf.6210

[Gotejjeken.1267]

18 hours ago, Eurantien.4632 said:

So then... this has me wondering? Isn't mace just pretty much all around better than hammer? The answer I think is yes. Which begs the question, why did we get a new weapon set that has the same identity as the old one? And how can these be differentiated moving forward?

Hammer was created specifically for Untamed, it suffers under any other circumstance.  Your unleashed ambush for hammer is way better than mace, and the flip skills way more flexibility under unleash/leash circumstances.  The only problem is hammer is still a bit too slow, they tuned up the animation times but could stand to do a little more there.

If you look at it as just hammer vs. maces then yes maces are superior because they weren't designed for literally one spec and then half kitten updated to work with others (the choose your skills thing).  

[Beddo.1907]

8 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Hammer was created specifically for Untamed, it suffers under any other circumstance.

Actually, Hammer is stronger on any other espec, due to being able to mix CC with CC/condi scaling.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

8 hours ago, Beddo.1907 said:

Actually, Hammer is stronger on any other espec, due to being able to mix CC with CC/condi scaling.

Yeah, you got me--you know we aren't posting in a topic where top 100 ranger is musing why hammer is entirely useless compared to maces or anything.  Musing based on the premise of the non-togglable hammer btw.  

Anyway, for my money, a few merged skills + Dolyak + some scaling if you take BM or CA form + some Druid dazes is not going to save you vs. a good hammer untamed who knows how to play the class. 

You won't find many Untamed's to begin with because it's very difficult to be performant, however if you run into one you will immediately realize why hammer was made for Untamed with the ambushes / skill flipping.  

Edited April 5 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Gotejjeken.1267]

For the confused, my post is referring to competitive, for PvE its different story with hammer.

To expand...competitive based on the last mAT for EU at least (only one I could find streamed); semi's had a mace/mace + sw/Wh SLB...no Hammer.  Unsure if this is where Eura's argument is coming from with Hammer vs. Maces, but it stands to reason without the flip skills of Untamed, Hammer is undoubtedly worse than Mace in competitive, regardless of how you spec it out.  

Only outlier would be WvW zerg play as that's obviously not represented in sPvP in any meaningful way (outside of the games where 5 ppl rush mid in a group the entire game).  I'd probably think Hammer is better there by nature of how certain moves function and the fact you don't need like OH Mace #4 in zergs.  

[Widebody.5071]

I tried hammer for the first time on my ranger a few days ago and it felt pretty good, no long term exp of course just a few days. It probably felt good because the thieves that always try to gank me more then likely wasn't expecting a big bushwhacker club waiting for them.  It gave me a little more omph and hiyah in my game play. you have to switch up your playstyle every so often not so much your armor but the way you show your aggression. These people follow you around and study the way you play. haven't tried maces yet, I'll give them a little more time before I dabble.

[Mic.1897]

On 4/5/2024 at 5:40 AM, Beddo.1907 said:

Actually, Hammer is stronger on any other espec, due to being able to mix CC with CC/condi scaling.

Not for heal alac druid or any condi spec to be fair lol

It is top tier power dps weapon though

[Beddo.1907]

20 hours ago, Mic.1897 said:

Not for heal alac druid or any condi spec to be fair lol

It is top tier power dps weapon though

Well obviously on a build that can use it for it's purpose.

[EnderzShadow.2506]

On 4/9/2024 at 5:57 PM, Beddo.1907 said:

Well obviously on a build that can use it for it's purpose.

To be clear, this is all pvp related and not pve.

Can you actually make an argument why you think hammer is better than maces? 
 

[Mewsha.3561]

Kind of expected since in everything other than instanced PvE content (fractals, raids, strikes), you want to prioritize your own survivability because other players won't be supporting you and giving you full boon coverage. That's especially true for PvP. I agree that hammer feels worse to use in almost every way after maces were released. Even after the nerfs, I've taken maces into fractals and strikes and it really wasn't that much of a step down from hammer, and was even beneficial sometimes because obviously not everyone is playing optimally in pugs.

I don't know, it just feels like they thought Heal Druid in PvE needed a better primary than axe, and then thinking stopped there. Then again it's not like the maces trail far behind in damage and CC, but would nerfing it again really make hammers a more attractive choice? The hammer and mace are just competing closely in too many categories. I still use hammer even outside of instanced PvE content, but mainly because I think maces are ugly and the new animations, while beautifully done, don't fit my aesthetic. I'd rather be stylish than optimized.

[Widebody.5071]

Hammer 5 is great at locking down slippery opponents or acting as a finisher or clean up tool. It gets the job done even if you're clicking your skills, it's there like a good friend ready to go to work.