Remove forced movement from the game.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

21 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Great, then leave it for people who enjoy playing it and play what you enjoy instead, because it's not clunky nor problematic as already explained.

Sure, so you enjoyed dps wb, but since awb is also a thing, it somehow rendered playing wb not viable or sth, so now you have to learn a new class. That just doesn't make any sense.

I just said I'd like to be able to play my willbender in a support role, because I like the class and took the time to learn it, but I find the way it shares boons to be clunky. That's my experience with it. I don't know any other way to present it, sorry. If you can't understand that for one valid reason or another, then I guess there's nothing else to discuss. We can agree to disagree here, to use a cliche but accurate expression.

Learning a new class is not simple or efficient for me either. I have limited time to play each week, especially recently. Sometimes less than 2-4 hours per week. I generally have to take vacation days to learn new classes and playstyles. So I like when things I learned offer a desired solution to me. It's one of the reasons I chose GW2 in the first place, because classes are rather versatile and can fill in multiple roles, game modes, and even playstyles. I don't have to learn an entirely new thing for each one.

Edited April 21 by Gaiawolf.8261

[Sobx.1758]

13 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I just said I'd like to be able to play my willbender in a support role, because I like the class and took the time to learn it, but I find the way it shares boons to be clunky. That's my experience with it. I don't know any other way to present it, sorry. If you can't understand that for one valid reason or another, then I guess there's nothing else to discuss. We can agree to disagree here, to use a cliche but accurate expression.

Learning a new class is not simple or efficient for me either. I have limited time to play each week, especially recently. Sometimes less than 2-4 hours per week. I generally have to take vacation days to learn new classes and playstyles. So I like when things I learned offer solutions to me. It's one of the reasons I chose GW2 in the first place, because classes are rather versatile and can fill in multiple roles, game modes, and even playstyles. I don't have to learn an entirely new thing for each one.

No, you said that you "liked wb before you got to awb, but now you have to learn a new class". If that's not what you meant then great, but you still wrote what you did and that's what I commented on.
Yes, you already said that you don't have time and don't feel like learning a class or build anyways, but that's not a reason to change any class or build to your liking and repeating again that "you don't have time or motivation" doesn't change anything about that. Even moreso when you try claiming you need to take vacation days to learn new classes/playstyles, as if LI builds never existed. Maybe you have a fairly limited understanding of what you're talking about (was that what you had in mind when you said you're sorry for jumping on qscrapper bandwagon in this thread?), but in that case you can always ask for help and suggestions of easy builds. 

For some reason you started repeating that we can disagree (or agree to disagree) -as if that's something I question here- while you're not adding anything new to the discussion "because you can't explain it" or you have "no opinion or understanding of it otherwise". If you're unable to respond to what you're quoting, there's no reason to quote it and repeat the same thing I already questioned. Wonder what your goal with doing that here is?

Edited April 21 by Sobx.1758
corrected the quote

[Gaiawolf.8261]

3 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

No, you said that you "liked wb before you got to awb, but now you have to learn a new class". If that's not what you meant then great, but you still wrote what you did and that's what I'm commenting on.
Yes, you already said that you don't have time and don't feel like learning a class or build anyways, but that's not a reason to change any class or build to your liking and repeating again that "you don't have time or motivation" doesn't change anything about that. Even moreso when you try claiming you need to take vacation days to learn new classes/playstyles, as if LI builds never existed. Maybe you have a fairly limited understanding of what you're talking about (was that what you had in mind when you said you're sorry for jumping on qscrapper train in this thread?), but in that case you can always ask for help and suggestions of easy builds. 

For some reason you started repeating that we can disagree (or agree to disagree) -as if that's something I question here- while you're not adding anything new to the discussion "because you can't explain it" or you have "no opinion or understanding of it otherwise". If you're unable to respond to what you're quoting, there's no reason to quote it and repeat the same thing I already questioned. Wonder what your goal with doing that here is?

I think we can disagree because we are not seeing eye to eye, or even each other's intent. Sorry, I don't see any reason to keep going back and forth if we just keep repeating ourselves or asking for something the other doesn't have.

Yes, my comment on quickscrapper was heresay, so I dropped it after relating what I heard. Others have commented on it better than me. I know how to play willbenders, so I stuck with that. You and I disagree on how we'd like it to be designed and played for support is all. I'm okay with that too. I don't need to understand anything else.

[Sobx.1758]

Just now, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I think we can disagree because we are not seeing eye to eye, or even each other's intent. Sorry, I don't see any reason to keep going back and forth if we just keep repeating ourselves or asking for something the other doesn't have.

Yes, my comment on quickscrapper was heresay, so I dropped it after relating what I heard. Others have commented on it better than me. I know how to play willbenders, so I stuck with that. You and I disagree on how we'd like it to be designed and played for support is all. I'm okay with that too. I don't need to understand anything else.

Great, as mentioned in the previous post, let me know if you need help with something.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

Just now, Sobx.1758 said:

Great, as mentioned in the previous post, let me know if you need help with something.

Thanks, but I'm good for now. I have other builds I like and feel motivation to play. Some I still want to learn, and I have a process for that too. And of course opinions on how I'd like to see the game go. Good luck to you too!

[Sobx.1758]

Just now, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Thanks, but I'm good for now. I have other builds I like and feel motivation to play. Some I still want to learn, and I have a process for that too.

Oh! In that case I'm glad you don't need to take vacation days (again, LI builds are a thing) to still play plenty of the builds.

2 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Good luck to you too!

As far as I understand, it's not "too", if I didn't say "good luck" in the first place? So, thanks and good luck to you too! 😄 

[Leo G.4501]

7 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

In the post you just quoted, I asked you to elaborate, while posing questions about your apparent simultaneous complaints about "boon ball" and what amounts to "but I can't just stand in the middle of my group :((". I also asked you what do you mean by "balancing around boon meta". It's not a "boon meta", boons are just clearly intended part of the game's design, not including them during balancing wouldn't make any sense. As far as I understand, you didn't respond to anything questioned, but just repeated what you already said in your previous post. Which is the position I already questioned.
Pressing f2 backwards and then using gap closer, including f1 isn't "running a round the backside of your kitten to get to your elbow". If you have issue with that, simply change the spec to something that isn't made specifically to be a mobile one. I'm not sure how you're "missing your aim on f2". Again, are you even aware of ranges you're trying to discuss here? Because for now it looks like you're just guessing here.

I guess I'm the one who brought "boon ball" into the conversation lol

The complications of the boon ball aren't binary. The game has practically always had this boon ball strat since the beginning.  It's just closer to the start, it wasn't as main-stream and specialized as it is now.  That and it wasn't about having all boons all the time but rather necessary boons at a given time.  The problems mutate with any given meta whether it's unique buffs or just the max uptime we are contending with now.  One could complain that it's too effective because most strats default to it or possibly that the resultant upkeep is the product of spamming skills which is low-skill/low-coordination or that it favors specific applications or boons over others. I personally find the subject interesting to discuss as we're talking about streamlining application of boons when application of boons is already the peak default goal.  It's basically making a moderately straight-forward strategy into a one-handed strategy. 

As far as balancing around the boon meta, I'd say that probably coincides with quickness and alac specifically. Being the premier boons to provide, balancing not only the uptime so every profession can apply it with a specific spec but also suggesting streamlining the application method to match is a red flag to me.  We're only a stone's throw away from just regulating all quick/alac to a relic instead so everybody's boon-dps is the same. Is it good? Is it fair? Should those boons be thrown in the trash? I dunno...I'm just a player here.  I'm just pointing out the patterns that some people see.  Same with them changing skills to be easier and faster to use then have to rebalance everything else to accommodate that these once slower skills can be popped out with little window for punishment. 

Or maybe I'm a masochist and just want to be punished while everyone else just wants to make punishable skills easier but then complain that the game gets rebalanced all the time. I guess that's a different kind of masochism...like shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[ShadowKatt.6740]

34 minutes ago, Leo G.4501 said:

We're only a stone's throw away from just regulating all quick/alac to a relic instead so everybody's boon-dps is the same.

Nope, I don't think you go far enough. I think we are just a stones throw from them going through and changing the whole game. If Quickness and Alacrity are NEEDED for literally every single game mode and every single build for every single part of the game then we may as well just adjust the speed and recharge of the skills and make them by default permanant.

[draxynnic.3719]

14 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Where did I write anything about swapping berserker gear to diviner? And if the group is failing dps checks, it's not really because qdps didn't have benchmark numbers.
Actually... did you read my posts and somehow came to the conclusion what I'm saying here is "use snowcrows build, swap every berk gear to diviners and then just use leap finishers less because of boon duriation you get"? Because at this point, I'm not sure what you're commenting on.

An argument was made that if someone didn't like relying on leap finishers, they could just change their build. The problem is that when the leap finishers are about half of the quickness application, that requires sacrifice. Whether it's boosting your boon duration to cover the difference (which means losing DPS) or by switching to a weapon with more blast finishers (shortbow, which means, guess what, losing DPS). 

I've been in a group where kicking one player and replacing them with someone more effective turned Gorseval from repeatedly failing to an easy oneshot. Granted, it was a hi dps PUG that was barely beating the healers and we'd been aware we were basically carrying them through a few but didn't make a big deal about it until it became the reason we were failing content. Now, I haven't run the numbers to know just how much DPS you lose by shifting qscrapper into a no-leap-finishers-required build, but it wouldn't take a lot to be sufficiently below the other boondps that people who have a DPS meter will notice.

Whether they care will depend on the dynamics of the group and what they're trying to do, but at that point it's a matter of arguing over how much the handicap matters rather than the existence of the handicap.

[Sobx.1758]

16 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

An argument was made that if someone didn't like relying on leap finishers, they could just change their build. The problem is that when the leap finishers are about half of the quickness application, that requires sacrifice. Whether it's boosting your boon duration to cover the difference (which means losing DPS) or by switching to a weapon with more blast finishers (shortbow, which means, guess what, losing DPS). 

 "sacrifice" as in no longer min-maxing by following exact builds/rotations from snowcrows benchmarks? Sure, as I already reminded you in the preivous post, that's exactly the point. You're saying you understand it wasn't about min-maxing, but now you're back to claiming what I'm saying is somehow wrong because it "requires sacrifice"? What sacrifice is it outside of not min-maxing anymore? Yes, you need to swap some skills which will result in playing a bit differently, but pretty sure playing a bit differently was part of the desired solution to this complaint, wasn't it? I don't get what you're trying to argument here, where you apparently keep complaining about not being as efficient as snowcrows builds/benchmarks, but at the same time you claim you understand it's not about min-maxing and it's fine to not min-max. (and at no point was I talking about shortbow)

16 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I've been in a group where kicking one player and replacing them with someone more effective turned Gorseval from repeatedly failing to an easy oneshot. Granted, it was a hi dps PUG that was barely beating the healers and we'd been aware we were basically carrying them through a few but didn't make a big deal about it until it became the reason we were failing content.

Isn't what you just said simply reiterating what I already said here?

On 4/21/2024 at 2:00 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

And if the group is failing dps checks, it's not really because qdps didn't have benchmark numbers.

Yes, the qdps wouldn't be the "meta/benchmark" build. Yes, it could deal less damage than "meta/benchmark" builds (duh). No, that's not the reason you're "not meeting the dps requirement for the encounter".

16 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

but it wouldn't take a lot to be sufficiently below the other boondps that people who have a DPS meter will notice.

From what I understand, what you're trying to use as an argument here is "there might exist a group that dislikes your dps, so that build is not viable/bad/not enough". If that's what you consider as an argument for any build then any build/class/player below 95% (made up number, might be 99% for some, how could we know) of the overal game's dps capabilities should be deemed as unfit to be played with. Personally I find this line of argumentation to be a complete nonsense. Either you want to min max with your group or you don't. If you do, you basically do whatever's needed to min max. If you don't (and we already established that's not about min-maxing), this is simply a bad argument because we're not talking about some leeching/healer level numbers.

Edited April 22 by Sobx.1758

[draxynnic.3719]

95%? 99% for some? Those are the numbers you think we're looking at here?

This feels like we need a test to find out how much you actually lose by giving up the leap finishers. Do you have an alternate weaponset in mind or will it just be a matter of using hammer but doing whatever is necessary to avoid having to use Rocket Charge? I'm already planning to use Blast Gyro instead of grenades because frell grenade kit rotations, so if you have a better idea for a substitution, let me know!

But I do think there is definitely a point at which a build stops being simply Not Minmaxing, and starts bleeding into Not Pulling Your Weight. Particularly since we also need to keep in mind that not everyone is going to have perfect gear and rotations, so giving up DPS by trading Berserker for Diviner means that you've got less leeway to fall down somewhere else, and more likelihood that even in a static that isn't going to kick you, people might be starting to think 'hey, Bob's firebrand, Alice's chrono, and Fred's herald can do the same job while doing 8k more DPS, maybe we should slot one of them in on quickdps instead?'

[Sobx.1758]

That's exactly how much your "but someone might want to kick you" argument is worth here. "Someone" might do whatever they want with their group. If you're failing encounter due to dps, it's not really because you're not playing an optimal qdps. Not sure why you keep skipping what I write in my posts, are you really just intentionally avoiding the points being made there? You -for some unknown reason- repeating again that it's about swapping berk gear to diviners seems to be supporting that theory.

[draxynnic.3719]

Because I'm trying to stick to the core contentions rather than an endless rebuttal war with increasingly long posts quibbling over individual sentences.

At the bottom line, everyone (or at least, anyone who isn't happy to just leech) is going to have a point at which a build's performance has dropped below the point where they feel they'd be better off swapping to something else that's more effective, whether that's being driven from outside, or purely from an internal viewpoint of not wanting to let the team down by playing an underperforming build when they could be playing something better. In that context, I don't think it's reasonable to say "just change your build so you don't have to use the problematic skill" when doing so might be a big enough hit to performance to push someone below that threshold.

Rocket Charge in a qscrapper build is about half your quickness generation. I think it's reasonable to presume that the means of offsetting not using Rocket Charge would be to double your boon duration, the most intuitive means of doing so being swapping to diviner's. If you are arguing in good faith here and do have an actual idea of how to change the build rather than simply throwing platitudes about not being a slave to the meta, than I'm all ears. Then we can potentially run a few tests and determine whether the performance hit is reasonable. My viewpoint is that power riflemechs are still quite capable of clearing content, so if the performance drop is roughly equivalent to going from condi mirage to power riflemech - about 25% - it's probably okay. Shall we run the test, or is good faith analysis of the severity of the problem something you're not interested in?

[Sobx.1758]

The core of conversation is that most movement skills aren't problematic so there's nothing to "fix" here and complaining that "since it includes repositioning, it needs to be changed!!" makes no sense. You trying to jump into a "I understand it doesn't need to be min-maxed" conversation just to instantly revert into "but it means you're sacrificing something!!" pseudo-argument also makes no sense. Not min-maxing does mean you're "sacrificing" something. No, you won't suddenly be a burden to a group. If you want to have a tryharding static, play tryharding builds and keep tryharding. I'm not sure which part of this is still unclear for you, but nothing you keep repeating explains it as far as I understand.

tldr: "but but but, at one point you might not have enough damage!" -ok, great. But this is not that point.

Edited April 26 by Sobx.1758
typo

[draxynnic.3719]

OP made it pretty clear how forced movement skills can be problematic, and Rocket Charge is particularly problematic because it's not just one, it's several in a series that is difficult to stop. OP also isn't the only source, I've seen it be complained about by multiple other scrapper players who don't visit the forums as well.

Thing is, there is going to be a point, and it's not necessarily going to be "DPS racing the healers". Most people who aren't Snowcrows or the like generally only do about 80% of the benchmark. Combine that with a build that's also doing significantly less than the benchmark, and you'll be starting to approach 50%. The general rule of thumb is that you can clear most content with about two thirds of the benchmarks, but if everyone is dropping below that (or some people are dropping well below that while others are around the 80%) you might be getting into trouble, and at best have that much less margin for error. There is going to be a point at which you're effectively asking everyone else in the group to make up for your shortfall, and saying "but you can adjust your build so that its easier at the cost of some damage" only applies so far. Again, there's a big difference between "not min-maxed" and "falling sufficiently behind to be a significant detriment to your group"

I've made several offers to run the tests to get a picture of where on that spectrum your claim lies, but it's fairly clear that you're only interested in semantics rather than discussing the issue in good faith here.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

OP made it pretty clear how forced movement skills can be problematic, and Rocket Charge is particularly problematic because it's not just one, it's several in a series that is difficult to stop. OP also isn't the only source, I've seen it be complained about by multiple other scrapper players who don't visit the forums as well.

Yeah, I've seen a similar trend with players complaining about willbenders being problematic, especially alacbender or just F2 in general, across most social media platforms I visit. Discord, YouTube, the forums here, Reddit (okay maybe not count Reddit cuz it's prob required to kitten about everything there), and even in game a few times. It's the same thing every time. When you want mobility, it's great, but when you don't and have to use movement skills for something other than mobility, players tend to despise it. That's been my experience. There are exceptions where the occasional player likes it, of course, but not many.

And I don't play quickscrapper, but I play in some modes where we share boons with combos. Blasting? Usually okay. Projectiles? Meh. Whirls? Oh dear! I can only imagine having to judge leaps. No wonder it's often considered cursed. Maybe if you could target the leap at an ally? But people already complain enough about ally targeting on specter, so maybe that's not the best idea?

[draxynnic.3719]

Based on reactions, I think there are some people who probably are interested in some actual numbers, and there appears to be no brilliant insight coming in order to make a better No Rocket Charge quickscrapper build than simply not using Rocket Charge and compensating with extra boon duration, so I thought I'd give it a shot.

Now, I don't run quickscrapper myself, and there's only so much I'm willing to regear for a test (I have a fair amount of legendary gear, but not enough to cover everything) and so much practice I'm willing to put in, but since we're looking at relative numbers here, I don't think the absolute numbers are that important. Broad approach is:

1) All boons except aegis and quickness

2) Weak golem (1 million health)

3) Using Mukluk's variant because frell grenade kit, but also using it on the assumption that I'm using that variant because I want to keep function gyro for resses. The full grenade kit version will do more damage, but also won't provide resses, so... depends on what's important to you. I was willing to use the function gyro to cover mistakes, though.

4) Tests are averaged between three runs, but runs where the damage is significantly lower are discarded in order to try to minimise the effect of mistakes: so the aim is to compare the highest value I can achieve consistently (in the end, no values were discarded due to being too high, but in one case I needed a bit of practice to achieve a tight grouping)

4) First test: Full berserkers. Boon duration ~20% due to scrapper minor trait.

5) Second test: Switch all of my legendary gear to diviner's. Boon duration ~77%. Never use Rocket Charge.

6) I was going to try reducing boon duration until quickness became borderline, but in the second test I was already feeling like I was one mistake away from quickness dropping.

Result: The diviner's tests achieved about 80% of the berserker's tests. That's... within the range I deemed acceptable in an earlier post, but approaching borderline. Rotation felt easier (no Rocket Charge, Throw Mine is the only skill I need to line up with fields), but less forgiving: the berserker build with Rocket Charge built up a noticeable buffer, the diviner build without felt like it was always one slipup away from losing quickness. In a realistic situation, it might be possible to compensate for that by using the odd Rocket Charge at times that you know are safe, but if that isn't practical, you're looking at a roughly 20% drop in damage and a significantly increased potential for losses in quickness uptime. This could be compensated for with more boon duration (at a cost of damage) or by using function gyro (but that would mean not having res potential, so it would be fairer then to compare to the grenade kit build).

And this is coming from the quickness build that's already at the bottom of the qdps benchmark, so it doesn't have a buffer to absorb that loss.

It's not crippling, according to the criteria I laid out before, but it's getting close to that limit, and losing out on buffer on quickness as well might arguably drop it below that threshold given that most real encounters involve more than just making sure your rotation rotates. The builds I do bring to raids, I probably wouldn't be happy to accept a 20% DPS loss and a loss in reliability of the boon I'm there to give for the sake of removing a major inconvenience with the build - I would (and do) find a build that performs well and doesn't have that problem in the first place.

Edited May 1 by draxynnic.3719

[Sobx.1758]

11 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

OP made it pretty clear how forced movement skills can be problematic, and Rocket Charge is particularly problematic because it's not just one, it's several in a series that is difficult to stop. OP also isn't the only source, I've seen it be complained about by multiple other scrapper players who don't visit the forums as well.

I repeatedly asked what's supposed to be problematic about mentioned movement skills and I didn't get anything more than what sums up to "weeell, you can't stick to the center of the boonball for that fraction of second [but I totally don't like boonball btw]".
"OP made it pretty clear how forced movement skills can be problematic", but what I'm asking for is how those exact movement skills are problematic. If his complaint is "because I can make a mistake" that's not a reason to change everything about the builds or mechanics in the game. It became increasingly clear -not just based on this thread- he wants as much of a "passive"/LI gameplay as he can get -and in that case he can already do that with other classes and builds. No need to dig into everything around just because he can miss a skill solely due to his mistakes.

 

11 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Thing is, there is going to be a point, and it's not necessarily going to be "DPS racing the healers". Most people who aren't Snowcrows or the like generally only do about 80% of the benchmark.

On 4/26/2024 at 3:49 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

tldr: "but but but, at one point you might not have enough damage!" -ok, great. But this is not that point.

 

11 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I've made several offers to run the tests to get a picture of where on that spectrum your claim lies, but it's fairly clear that you're only interested in semantics rather than discussing the issue in good faith here.

Wait, what? You "made offers" for me to run tests for you? What kind of "offer" is this supposed to be? I know how it plays and what it can do, you rather clearly don't (or, currenty, didn't?). The question is: why did you even attempt discussing this without understanding what exactly you're talking about (and then try claiming I'm the one doing it "not in a good faith")?
Once again, you don't need that 70% boon duration from diviner's gear. You choosing to not use function gyro because you need/want it for rezing people as qdps in a group that will (maybe perhaps potentially who knows?) threaten you with kicks is also an interesting one to me, but I guess we need to cut those quickness sources somehow, in order to claim "it's just barely making it on the edge of being acceptable".

 

10 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Yeah, I've seen a similar trend with players complaining about willbenders being problematic, especially alacbender or just F2 in general, across most social media platforms I visit. Discord, YouTube, the forums here, Reddit (okay maybe not count Reddit cuz it's prob required to kitten about everything there)

Notice how most people posting here or there do so, because they want to complain about something. People who like wbs gameplay don't usually feel the need to go to any platform to announce "it shouldn't be changed!". If those players you're talking about dislike this type of gameplay, the game offers plenty of different ones. This is not the reason to change how it plays, it's a reason for them to pick the build they like.

Edited May 1 by Sobx.1758

[Gaiawolf.8261]

29 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Notice how most people posting here or there do so, because they want to complain about something. People who like wbs gameplay don't usually feel the need to go to any platform to announce "it shouldn't be changed!". If those players you're talking about dislike this type of gameplay, the game offers plenty of different ones. This is not the reason to change how it plays, it's a reason for them to pick the build they like.

Not just posts that complain, also follow up comments (hardly anyone jumps in to defend the build like they do on other builds; mostly agreements instead) and conversations I've had with people on multiple discord servers who have experience with the build. YT reviews tend to make the complaint despite praising how well the build works otherwise. Which is true. Other than how it shares alac, willbenders are generally considered fun from my personal and conversational experiences. 

I engage in a lot of conversations with friends, server mates, and strangers on classes and builds for this game. I usually find a good mix of people who play, like, or dislike most builds. Alacbender is NOT one of those. Almost everyone I talked to agrees the Flowing Resolve/Phoenix Protocol/Battle Presence synergy is problematic/toxic/cursed/whatever word they want to use, Usually it's due to forced movement, but also because of the hit stacking we also discussed, and the multiple forced trait/traitline selections required to make it work. I forgot to mention the last before, because it wasn't directly related, but its also often considered problematic. I'm not sure I agree with that point, but I think Anet should do it with more specs if they force it on support WBs, so it doesn't stand out like a sore thumb. These are my experiences talking about classes.

I'm aware of your opinion on how yo feel they can resolve their frustrations. We've been through that, and I understand your argument.

[Sobx.1758]

57 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Not just posts that complain, also follow up comments (hardly anyone jumps in to defend the build like they do on other builds; mostly agreements instead) and conversations I've had with people on multiple discord servers who have experience with the build. YT reviews tend to make the complaint despite praising how well the build works otherwise. Which is true. Other than how it shares alac, willbenders are generally considered fun from my personal and conversational experiences. 

I engage in a lot of conversations with friends, server mates, and strangers on classes and builds for this game. I usually find a good mix of people who play, like, or dislike most builds. Alacbender is NOT one of those. Almost everyone I talked to agrees the Flowing Resolve/Phoenix Protocol/Battle Presence synergy is problematic/toxic/cursed/whatever word they want to use, Usually it's due to forced movement, but also because of the hit stacking we also discussed, and the multiple forced trait/traitline selections required to make it work. I forgot to mention the last before, because it wasn't directly related, but its also often considered problematic. I'm not sure I agree with that point, but I think Anet should do it with more specs if they force it on support WBs, so it doesn't stand out like a sore thumb. These are my experiences talking about classes.

Well, meanwhile most people I talked about it with disagree with what you're writing here. Others simply play what they want instead anyways. Like I said before, I don't see how this is supposed to be problematic or in need of change. If someone yeets themselves off the platform, in this case it's because of their obvious -and rather bad- mistake. And without change "having to stack hits" has nothing (like literally absolutely nothing) to do with discussing any attempted "forced movement" change. I understand that you dislike how abender plays and agree that you're free to dislike it, while subsequently play one of many other options the game provides you with.

1 hour ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I'm aware of your opinion on how yo feel they can resolve their frustrations. We've been through that, and I understand your argument.

It's not just "my opinion on how they can resolve it", it's literally how they can resolve it. Different classes and builds playing differently is the point of having different classes and builds. Stop trying to make everything the same.

[Leo G.4501]

8 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Well, meanwhile most people I talked about it with disagree with what you're writing here. Others simply play what they want instead anyways. Like I said before, I don't see how this is supposed to be problematic or in need of change. If someone yeets themselves off the platform, in this case it's because of their obvious -and rather bad- mistake. And without change "having to stack hits" has nothing (like literally absolutely nothing) to do with discussing any attempted "forced movement" change. I understand that you dislike how abender plays and agree that you're free to dislike it, while subsequently play one of many other options the game provides you with.

It's not just "my opinion on how they can resolve it", it's literally how they can resolve it. Different classes and builds playing differently is the point of having different classes and builds. Stop trying to make everything the same.

Calm down Jamal. Don't pull out the 9. 😆

At the end of the day, people are always going to ask for change. You won't get them to stop by telling them, you have to convince them that there are reasons not to change everything. It's easier to do that when you're not telling them to stop having opinions tho.  For example, I'm pretty sure OP is done with the discussion and probably has come to the conclusion that if they improve action cam a bit so they can finagle a resolution to their "launching themselves randomly in a direction" problem, no other change to the professions is really necessary.

Reading the other comments, it seems rather harsh to criticize someone who decided to do some independent testing when, ultimately, they're trying to add more to the conversation. Sure, criticize the data but no need to go after someone who just wants to share info. All being said, and with all the criticism I throw at Anet and the direction GW2 is taking, the system still is pretty flexible and leaves a lot to explore for those willing to stray off the snowy path amidst the echoes of crows telling you where you should go.  

[Obtena.7952]

The reality is that there hasn't been any compelling reason to remove 'forced movement' from the game because there is already choice that allows people to avoid it if it's such a problem for them. They simply don't want to entertain those choices ... or git gud with the option they have chosen. SOMEHOW that translates to "Anet has to change the game" instead of "this is a ME problem". 

Edited May 2 by Obtena.7952

[Sobx.1758]

12 hours ago, Leo G.4501 said:

you have to convince them that there are reasons not to change everything.

Time to read the posts in the thread then.

12 hours ago, Leo G.4501 said:

It's easier to do that when you're not telling them to stop having opinions tho.

Where did I say anything like that? If anything, I'm asking further questions about their opinions, which for the most part remained unanswered, at least for the majority of the time those questions were repeatedly asked.

12 hours ago, Leo G.4501 said:

Reading the other comments, it seems rather harsh to criticize someone who decided to do some independent testing

I'm not sure what you're talking about here, maybe you could be more specific. Which criticism was so harsh here?

 

By all means, explain what exactly you're talking about here, because it doesn't look like you're commenting on what I wrote in my posts. 🤷‍♂️

Edited May 2 by Sobx.1758

[Leo G.4501]

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Time to read the posts in the thread then.

Where did I say anything like that? If anything, I'm asking further questions about their opinions, which for the most part remained unanswered, at least for the majority of the time those questions were repeatedly asked.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here, maybe you could be more specific. Which criticism was so harsh here?

 

By all means, explain what exactly you're talking about here, because it doesn't look like you're commenting on what I wrote in my posts. 🤷‍♂️

It's all on this last page (my settings have this thread on page 6 which has the last 23 posts made).  It's not a deep dive, just read.

My post was moreso a call to be chill than anything but if you need someone to pick apart posts, just ask. I try to avoid doing that when the voices in my head say I'm being pedantic. As the saying goes, nitpicking begets more nitpicking. And if that's not a saying then I'm taking credit for it. 

[Sobx.1758]

7 minutes ago, Leo G.4501 said:

It's all on this last page (my settings have this thread on page 6 which has the last 23 posts made).  It's not a deep dive, just read.

My post was moreso a call to be chill than anything but if you need someone to pick apart posts, just ask. I try to avoid doing that when the voices in my head say I'm being pedantic. As the saying goes, nitpicking begets more nitpicking. And if that's not a saying then I'm taking credit for it. 

None of the negatives you described in your posts is what I wrote in mine. I agree that it's not that deep: either quote and explain what you're talking about or stop making things up to accuse me of something I didn't do.

I find it funny you're telling me to "just ask" when you just quoted the post where I specifically asked you to elaborate about some things you said and you just refused to do so. Weird.

Edited May 2 by Sobx.1758