Remove forced movement from the game.

[Dibit.6259]

Or maybe you could pay attention to the fight and not use said skills when it could get you killed? As many people have pointed out those movement skills are useful when used correctly. A part of these fights are learning to optimize when to do rotation or use certain skills.

Saying people should be fired because of your mistakes and unwillingness to adapt seems very immature and entitled. Edit: You could have even just politely suggested/requested a change.

Edited April 8 by Dibit.6259
Added more

[ShadowKatt.6740]

6 hours ago, Sindust.7059 said:

Mukluk recently talked about chrono suicide by continuum split. And do you play daredevil? Willbender? Any rev using swords? Weaver?

While quick scrapper is the worst example with its 3s animation lock and the skill being mandatory, it really affects a lot of builds.

And no, it's not one game mode, it's all instanced end game content. Forced movement can kill you in both fractals and strikes too.

Do you have any opinions that are your own? "Snowcrows said...." "Mukluk said..." I refer to my last post before I tried to just ignore you, but you won't let it go.

No, I don't play daredevil, because I'm allergic to getting punched in the face. I'd much rather play Deadeye and sit waaaaaaaaaaaaay over there.
No I don't play Willbender. No particular reason, just that I've never developed a taste for Guardians of any flavor. They just don't jive with me.
As for Sword Rev, Shiro and I are best friends....I mean, as long as he stays in the mists and doesn't get all genocide-y again.
And I love weaver. I play so much weaver. In my youtube series with Blizzard Star I'm playing weaver there.
Oh, and I main Mesmer. I have never, EVER killed myself using Continuum Split. As someone else said, sounds like a skill issue. Especially, given the context of this thread, since I assume you're talking about how Continuum Split will put you BACK whereever you used it which could very well be a giant death AoE. Well guess what? YOU KNEW THAT COULD HAPPEN WHEN YOU USED IT!

I don't care about your quick scrapper the same way I don't care about alac mirage. In my opinion you don't deserve it. Mirages didn't need Alacrity to begin with and since they got it I have heard NOTHING BUT ENDING BITCHING AND WHINING about how "Mirage Mantle needs to provide Alacrity to ALL ambushes" "The rifle doesn't even give alacrity!" and so on. Now I don't have as much experience with engineers but I have to assume that it's the same for engis when it comes to quickness since, well, that's what we're talking about "Oh no, only one skill gives quicknes and it's a MOVEMENT skill! Jeeves! Fetch for me my softest fainting couch!"

ONE build. ONE spec. ONE game mode. And as far as I can tell, ONE person complaining about it. You know what? I LIKE the movement skills in the game, and I'll explain to you why. I am visually impaired. I only have one working eye and the other eye is legally blind. I struggle to play this game trying to keep up with everything going on. And my movement skills help me because I can Tab Target and Movement Skill and it takes my character from where I am to where I need to be. I use Rocket Charge on my Engineer. I use the fire leaps and lightning teleports on my sword weaver. I use the lunges and charges on my warrior. And guess what? THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE FOR. So I have absolutely zero sympathy here. I have negative sympathy here because as I stated above I didn't even want to address you again, but here I am. Deal with it.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Ohh no. 

My skill that's does X when I press it does X when I press it. 

 

[Sindust.7059]

30 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Do you have any opinions that are your own? "Snowcrows said...." "Mukluk said..." I refer to my last post before I tried to just ignore you, but you won't let it go.

So according to you 2+2=5, because if you say that it's 4, that's not your own opinion, and you didn't do the math yourself, but just copied it from someone else.

I'm not reading past that point, since you obviously didn't read my reply either.

[Sindust.7059]

15 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Ohh no. 

My skill that's does X when I press it does X when I press it. 

 

So if the skill said "drains your bank account and kills your dog, but you also get to give 5s of quick to your group", you would also be ok with it if it did exactly that?

Why does anybody ever complain about anything in the game if ANet can never make bad design decisions? And if everything they do is always perfect, why do they even make changes at all? You can't improve perfection after all...

[ShadowKatt.6740]

2 hours ago, Sindust.7059 said:

Why does anybody ever complain about anything in the game if ANet can never make bad design decisions? And if everything they do is always perfect, why do they even make changes at all? You can't improve perfection after all...

Oh Anet screws up a lot of things. For years Anet stripped Mirage of one of its dodges in WvW when that dodge is LITERALLY A KEY COMPONENT OF THE SPEC. Anet can screw things up royally when they really try. The problem here isn't that Anet is or isn't perfect; the problem here is you.

Well, I say you, but really I just mean quick hammer scrappers in general, and honestly this speaks to a larger problem in the game. People need Quickness and Alacrity like a heroin junkie needs their next fix. To wit, they will do LITERALLY ANYTHING to get it. Is the built substandard in either DPS or Survivability? Don't care, it gives Quickness/Alacrity. Will this skill potentially do me harm? Don't care, it gives Quickness/Alacrity. Will a QHeal/AHeal build pidgeonhole me into staring at my skill bar and just refreshing boons while ignoring the rest of the game? DON'T CARE! I'VE GOT QUICKNESS OR ALACRITY!

This is the reason I have railed against Quickness or Alacrity even being in the game. T h e y  a r e  t o x i c. They are literally a poison that is destroying the game because it has become more important that the game itself, to the point where people, like yourself, would see an entire CATEGORY of skills removed from the game so they could get more quickness for their build. Do you not see how utterly insane that is? That is literally the same mindset as a junkie prostituting themselves or selling their own kidney just so they can have more of the precious quickness. It's getting beyond the point where it's just bad for the game; at this point I'm ready to stand on my soapbox and declare that Quickness and Alacrity are actually bad for the PLAYERS! I don't know how a boon in a video game suddenly became a mental health issue but, I mean, there you are.

[draxynnic.3719]

19 hours ago, Xelqypla.6817 said:

Raidsplain to us how making some sort of change to ALL forced movement skills is a great idea because the way Scrapper provides quickness is not ideal in some instanced situations.

If it's a Scrapper problem, then the solution should be contained within Scrapper.

Now, if only my post had said something to the effect that the problem was manageable with the other professions and that quickscrapper should be redesigned...

...Oh, wait! It did!

2 hours ago, Sindust.7059 said:

So according to you 2+2=5, because if you say that it's 4, that's not your own opinion, and you didn't do the math yourself, but just copied it from someone else.

I'm not reading past that point, since you obviously didn't read my reply either.

You didn't miss much. Short form: ShadowKatt is one of the people who believes that roles should be locked to specific professions and thus engineer shouldn't even HAVE quickness. 

[Passerbye.6291]

The problem with removing forced movement is, while the balance team hasn't done a great job of implementing power economy among builds that fulfill similar niches, at its core, a skill that provides movement has an extra use in addition to what it does in terms of damage, healing or boon output. If you were to give people the option to use a skill with forced movement to cast in place or cancel the movement, it renders such abilities strictly superior to any standard ability. Doing this would inevitably force them to reduce the sheer output of such abilities to balance them back in line, similar to how they tend to make sure most CC abilities do laughable damage. 

While you called forced movement abilities detrimental, you ignored certain parts, like how hammer 3 on engineer has multiple leap finishers, hence why it is necessary for qdps in the first place. Revenant staff 5 being one of the most broken CC skills in the game depending on boss hitbox while also making you evade damage during it, thief dagger dagger 3 giving you some evade frames, allowing you to use it well and avoid damage, or time it poorly and get stuck in an animation. Similarly, most skills that have a forced movement function really well as gap closers as well.
Given the choice between a weapon with abilities that just hit from where you stand or one or two that dashes you towards your target or your reticle, I'm pretty sure people would pick the option with extra mobility. Sure, it can be annoying at times, I play vindicator in our HT CM prog group, believe me, I know ^^, but those are parts of player skill in this game. While this one thing may not change it entirely, but the combination of these intricacies and learning how to handle them are, at least partly, the reasons why combat feels so good in this game. If anything, I'd prefer to have more things like this in the game so you can feel like you as a player make more difference when you play well. (Except forced ally targeting, that's pure pain imo ^^)

Edited April 8 by Passerbye.6291

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

Your problem can be solved by turning on "Promote Skill Target" and "Melee Attack Assist" in the game's control panel (the General Options tab). It will automatically direct your skill to the nearest target and adjust your movement skill so that it stops right at the target's hitbox. Of course it won't work if you're already inside the hitbox.

In the same vein I've also discovered fast and auto ground-targeted AoE skills this way. By turning on "Snap Ground Target to Current Target" and changing the option of AoE placement to "Fast with Range Indicator", I can just press the skill once like a normal skill and the the game will automatically place the AoE on whatever I'm current targeting as long as it's within the valid range.

It's literally just a control setting problem.

[Leo G.4501]

3 hours ago, Sindust.7059 said:

So if the skill said "drains your bank account and kills your dog, but you also get to give 5s of quick to your group", you would also be ok with it if it did exactly that?

Why does anybody ever complain about anything in the game if ANet can never make bad design decisions? And if everything they do is always perfect, why do they even make changes at all? You can't improve perfection after all...

In that instance, I'd implore you to take my latter advice to play a different profession that can apply quickness easier....at the very least, not at the expense of your dog.

And we complain about Anet all the time. I'm certain they realize how much heat they get for their changes. I've pretty much given up on Bladesworn completely.

[Passerbye.6291]

2 hours ago, ZephidelGRS.9520 said:

Your problem can be solved by turning on "Promote Skill Target" and "Melee Attack Assist" in the game's control panel (the General Options tab). It will automatically direct your skill to the nearest target and adjust your movement skill so that it stops right at the target's hitbox. Of course it won't work if you're already inside the hitbox.

In the same vein I've also discovered fast and auto ground-targeted AoE skills this way. By turning on "Snap Ground Target to Current Target" and changing the option of AoE placement to "Fast with Range Indicator", I can just press the skill once like a normal skill and the the game will automatically place the AoE on whatever I'm current targeting as long as it's within the valid range.

It's literally just a control setting problem.

You can also hold down things like grenade kit 1 if you set aoe to fast cast without range indicator. Since you cast on release with range indicator, you can't hold down grenade kit 1, but if you set it to instant, you can hold it down for some extra quality of life, helps when you are tagging stuff in open world etc.

[Obtena.7952]

6 hours ago, Sindust.7059 said:

So if the skill said "drains your bank account and kills your dog, but you also get to give 5s of quick to your group", you would also be ok with it if it did exactly that?

Why does anybody ever complain about anything in the game if ANet can never make bad design decisions? And if everything they do is always perfect, why do they even make changes at all? You can't improve perfection after all...

Hold on ... you have a choice what skills you use in this game so ... the whole thread makes no sense. Don't like forced movement skills? OK, don't use them. 

'Being OK' with skills is irrelevant if you can choose to not use them if you aren't OK with them. What you THINK is a bad design decision is just a L2P and/or a 'you making bad skill choices for yourself' issue. 

Edited April 8 by Obtena.7952

[ShadowKatt.6740]

45 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Hold on ... you have a choice what skills you use in this game so ... the whole thread makes no sense. Don't like forced movement skills? OK, don't use them. 

'Being OK' with skills is irrelevant if you can choose to not use them if you aren't OK with them. What you THINK is a bad design decision is just a L2P and/or a 'you making bad skill choices for yourself' issue. 

You're misunderstanding. It's not a choice. They're playing a Quick Scrapper, so they HAVE to press the button, or else they don't get that precious, precious quickness. If they don't press that button, the whole team dies, and the mission fails, and presumably the middle east falls into conflict and war.....wait......anyway, there is no choice. The button MUST be pressed otherwise it's not a Quick Scrapper. it's just....Scrapper. So they've got a choice: Either don't press the button and fail everything, or press the button and run off a cliff. There's literally no middleground here.

[Obtena.7952]

19 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

You're misunderstanding. It's not a choice. They're playing a Quick Scrapper, so they HAVE to press the button, or else they don't get that precious, precious quickness. If they don't press that button, the whole team dies, and the mission fails, and presumably the middle east falls into conflict and war.....wait......anyway, there is no choice. The button MUST be pressed otherwise it's not a Quick Scrapper. it's just....Scrapper. So they've got a choice: Either don't press the button and fail everything, or press the button and run off a cliff. There's literally no middleground here.

No, I don't misunderstand. It IS a choice that they are playing QScrapper. There are OTHER quickness specs they could choose if QScrapper doesn't work for them because 'movement' or some other nonsensical reason. 

There is no narrative where Anet is forcing ANYONE to do ANYTHING. That's completely absurd considering the lengths that Anet has made to balance the game in the last 2 years in their roles-based system. There IS choice. People need to make better choices for themselves if the choices they made don't work for them. 

Force movements skills DON'T need to be removed from the game. Players that don't like them simply need to git gud or choose something else. 

Edited April 8 by Obtena.7952

[Leo G.4501]

14 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

You're misunderstanding. It's not a choice. They're playing a Quick Scrapper, so they HAVE to press the button, or else they don't get that precious, precious quickness. If they don't press that button, the whole team dies, and the mission fails, and presumably the middle east falls into conflict and war.....wait......anyway, there is no choice. The button MUST be pressed otherwise it's not a Quick Scrapper. it's just....Scrapper. So they've got a choice: Either don't press the button and fail everything, or press the button and run off a cliff. There's literally no middleground here.

On a serious note, are there no other specs for Scrapper? I don't play Engineer.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

2 hours ago, Leo G.4501 said:

On a serious note, are there no other specs for Scrapper? I don't play Engineer.

I dunno, I just play scrapper.

I'm not a meta-chasing, number-crunching, power-gaming player, I'm just one of those FILTHY CASUALS that plays the game because it's supposed to be fun. So I have a scrapper, I use a hammer and a rifle, and it's fun. For me it took me a bit of time to learn how to do it because scrappers REALLY want to be in melee, and melee isn't my forte. But the whole idea of a scrapper is they're a walking AOE. Between the hammer which has great cleaving and wells that extend from your person out, scrappers are a spec that -really really- wants to be in the middle of a fight. And I'll admit that while it feels really wrong for me to do that, sometimes it's fun. Don't care about the gear, don't care about benchmarks, don't care about the meta, you really can just....play the game, perish the thought.

[Micah.3789]

My goodness there's a lack of critical thinking in this thread. I read the title as "Remove Forced Movement from the Game" which seems to be intended based on the OP's elaborations, and yet most of these bad faith arguments seem to be responding as though it was "Remove Movement from the Game" period. Movement is of course super useful and often worth losing control of your character, but it doesn't feel great and can sometimes be excessively risky. So why not keep movement, but give some control back to the player?

As far as OP's suggestions for fixes, I don't actually like any of them, but I do have my own. More directional movement skills could use ground targeting arrows or circles instead of being locked to target or facing. The arrow could be modified to stretch to the desired distance much like placing a circular ground target at a desired range. The arrow would max out based on the range of the skill so you could move anywhere up to that amount, including staying in place. 

[ShadowKatt.6740]

10 minutes ago, Micah.3789 said:

As far as OP's suggestions for fixes, I don't actually like any of them, but I do have my own. More directional movement skills could use ground targeting arrows or circles instead of being locked to target or facing. The arrow could be modified to stretch to the desired distance much like placing a circular ground target at a desired range. The arrow would max out based on the range of the skill so you could move anywhere up to that amount, including staying in place. 

Part of me wants to say "Dear god not more ground targetting WHEN WILL IT STOP!?"

But then I use Snap to Target or whatever it's called, so honestly not a bad option. Not the best option, but not the worst either. THAT BEING SAID though, not gonna fix the core complaint of this thread. The complaint was that if you use something like Rocket Charge, and the boss moves or teleports, then there you go careening off a cliff like a lemming in a Disney documentary. Adding a ground target won't necessarily fix that; perhaps you could just aim it a different direction but I have a feeling that it's gonna end in the same complaint.

[Micah.3789]

3 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

The complaint was that if you use something like Rocket Charge, and the boss moves or teleports, then there you go careening off a cliff like a lemming in a Disney documentary. Adding a ground target won't necessarily fix that; perhaps you could just aim it a different direction but I have a feeling that it's gonna end in the same complaint.

Ground targeting would fix precisely that. Instead of following the moving target unpredictably, you'd land in precisely the place you intended to. You just might miss the moving target, which would be the likely complaint if they did implement something like this. Then the question is what Anet's priority would be: letting players control their characters more freely or keeping movement skills as automated as possible to avoid skill-based failure. 

[Gaiawolf.8261]

Why not just take quickness (or alac or other high value support needs) off movement skills, and put them somewhere more practical? Keep movement skills in the game, but make them be for something relatable like, I don't know, mobility, maybe? On second thought, nah, that sounds dumb. Who would use a movement skill for mobility instead of trying to keep quickness in a stationary little boonball? Silly me. 

[Sindust.7059]

3 hours ago, Micah.3789 said:

My goodness there's a lack of critical thinking in this thread. I read the title as "Remove Forced Movement from the Game" which seems to be intended based on the OP's elaborations, and yet most of these bad faith arguments seem to be responding as though it was "Remove Movement from the Game" period. Movement is of course super useful and often worth losing control of your character, but it doesn't feel great and can sometimes be excessively risky. So why not keep movement, but give some control back to the player?

As far as OP's suggestions for fixes, I don't actually like any of them, but I do have my own. More directional movement skills could use ground targeting arrows or circles instead of being locked to target or facing. The arrow could be modified to stretch to the desired distance much like placing a circular ground target at a desired range. The arrow would max out based on the range of the skill so you could move anywhere up to that amount, including staying in place. 

If that was implemented AND action camera would allow targeting at 0 distance, I'd be fine with that solution. In fact the way targeting works with action cam is another gripe of mine that causes headaches on Cairn CM. But without the fix for the action camera it would be of no help whatsoever, because ground targeting would still move the character.

Edited April 9 by Sindust.7059

[Leo G.4501]

2 hours ago, Sindust.7059 said:

If that was implemented AND action camera would allow targeting at 0 distance, I'd be fine with that solution. In fact the way targeting works with action cam is another gripe of mine that causes headaches on Cairn CM. But without the fix for the action camera it would be of no help whatsoever, because ground targeting would still move the character.

As I was reading the rest of the thread, I was just about to suggest action camera (a thing I often have to remind myself exists). If they add more targeting options aimed to resolve your issue, I'm sure it wouldn't affect anyone negatively, but at the same time, you're not going to get a dev's man-hours threatening to get them fired lol.

[Sobx.1758]

On 4/5/2024 at 5:25 PM, Sindust.7059 said:

You want to give quickness to your group while playing scrapper in fractals? Too bad, use hammer 3 and just die. You want to do the same on CA in W6? Funny guy. Just fly past the arm, because the targeting is atrocious or when you're hitting the boss himself, get pushed to the side because of the invisible wall and die in the trash laser outside of where your group put the shields. You're healing on mech? Too bad, mace 2 will do all the same things, and you can't skip it or you won't be giving out boons. Wanna try Willbender or mirage? You better have nerves of steel. Daredevil? Make sure to call the ambulance before logging in, because by the time they arrive you will need it.

Nope, other than "scrapper issues being scrapper issues", it's fine as it is. Maybe you just need to practice a bit.

On 4/7/2024 at 9:41 PM, frostiecakes.2981 said:

Skill issue tbh

👆

Edited April 9 by Sobx.1758

[Jedrik.3109]

.

Edited April 10 by Jedrik.3109
People like me should never be considered pertinent.

[Micah.3789]

26 minutes ago, Jedrik.3109 said:

Reduceding the skill level of a game with a notoriously low skill floor and 10+ years of power creep is unwarranted in any way.

Removing automated movement/aim is the exact opposite of reducing the skill level. In fact, it would further widen the skill gap. Unskilled players would be missing constantly without assisted aim forced movement, while skilled players would be able to control their characters with finesse.