Why can't engineer still not weapon swap in combat?

[Dhonti.5162]

Other classes have way more weapon choices and mechanics. Firebrand got F skills, renegade also have F skills, ranger, warrior, necromancer, mesmer even have those and still can swap in combat. The on swap sigil have an internal cooldown, so it has no use to swap kits often on engineer. Other classes do have the benefit of a 2nd weaponset with other sigils. Especially in competitive game modes engineer just comes up short because of this. At this point for me engineer should have weapon swap. Most of the kits are underwhelming and even not used.

Mechanist as pet class can't even weapons swap in combat while rangers can. Why? (Not even asking why mech disappears underwater while other classes have pets that either swap to underwater pet (ranger) or turn into a underwater variety(necromancer)). 

Other classes have more benifit of running ranged/melee or melee/utility weapon sets with different sigils. With the introduction of more new weapons the benefit or better the lack of benefit on engineer becomes more and more.

Same might be the case for elementalist but I do not play elementalist enough to have an opinion about it.

Edited April 11 by Dhonti.5162

[Gehenna.3625]

Well, you have to keep two things separated: Engineer and Mechanist. Mechanist was intended as a Low Intensity build, so more options would go against that afaic. And don't engineers have kits and such?

[Cyninja.2954]

Originally engineer and elementalist had no access to weapon swap due to their baseline kits. Now this has obviously been diluted over time yet still remains true for kits. Engineer kits have some very power skills and most often not only 1, so you get the benefit of multiple skills at the expense of 1 slot on the bar.

Mechanist strait up has of the most busted signets in the game with maximum ease of use at minimum skill availability. That's by design for that class and given its performance, it seems to work.

Giving engineer a weapon swap would need massive re-balancing of kits and other benefits it has due not NOT having a weapons swap atm.

Meanwhile both engineer and elementalist benefit off of being able to use stacking sigils on one weapon set and keep that stacked buff while playing on the other set (and still seing balance around only having 1 weapon set). Something no other class is able to do.

You are looking at this from only the perspective of gaining a weapon swap and all the benefits that might entail without considering the cost at which it might/would come.

Edited April 11 by Cyninja.2954

[Dawdler.8521]

54 minutes ago, Dhonti.5162 said:

Other classes have more benifit of running ranged/melee or melee/utility weapon sets with different sigils.

Engineer kit swapping is vastly superior even with “only” one sigil set because it allows you to swap on demand.

An example would be engaging an enemy with a rifle, swapping to toolkit for pull, smack em with the wrench, flip back to rifle to knock them back and jump attack, flip back to toolkit to block their counterattack, teleport away (if mech), flip back to rifle to range them again, etc and so on. 

[Gendalfs.7521]

So you think Mech/engie would be OP if weapon swap given?

[draxynnic.3719]

*squints* This is a separate thread because of Poe's Law, isn't it?

[jason.1083]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

*squints* This is a separate thread because of Poe's Law, isn't it?

Wdym? I don't recall ever seeing such a discussion before I my life... 

[Dhonti.5162]

18 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Giving engineer a weapon swap would need massive re-balancing of kits and other benefits it has due not NOT having a weapons swap atm.

The current meta only has 2 kits in it, grenade for DPS and elixergun for support, the rest of the kits are not used. So basically that is 1 kit in a build.

If I had to compare that 1 kit to something other classes have, I would compare it to specter shroud, reaper shroud or celestial avatar or even the tomes of a firebrand, 5 new skills available and those classes can even weapon swap. Make the use of kits the same as those mechanics that the utility skills disappear when using one (which first wasn't the case for reaper either) for balancing purposes or put a cooldown on the kits but then engineer could have weaponswap. It certainly would bring much more variety in the builds and fun playing instead of going into grenades and press 1 and 2 of cooldown. 

What other benfits? Hardly no self cleansing in competitive game modes other then just 1 skill and that 1 sigil (with 9 sec cooldown) that you cannot change because otherwise you have not enough cleansing left at all playing as a DPS roamer.

17 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Engineer kit swapping is vastly superior even with “only” one sigil set because it allows you to swap on demand.

As said then you run into the internal cooldown of that sigil, so where is the benefit in that?

Weapon swap and having other sigil choices would balance this better imo.

Edited April 12 by Dhonti.5162

[Sobx.1758]

Because read another thread like 3 lines below yours, where your question was already answered multiple times.

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Dhonti.5162 said:

The current meta only has 2 kits in it, grenade for DPS and elixergun for support, the rest of the kits are not used. So basically that is 1 kit in a build.

If I had to compare that 1 kit to something other classes have, I would compare it to specter shroud, reaper shroud or celestial avatar or even the tomes of a firebrand, 5 new skills available and those classes can even weapon swap. Make the use of kits the same as those mechanics that the utility skills disappear when using one (which first wasn't the case for reaper either) for balancing purposes or put a cooldown on the kits but then engineer could have weaponswap. It certainly would bring much more variety in the builds and fun playing instead of going into grenades and press 1 and 2 of cooldown. 

What other benfits? Hardly no self cleansing in competitive game modes other then just 1 skill and that 1 sigil (with 9 sec cooldown) that you cannot change because otherwise you have not enough cleansing left at all playing as a DPS roamer.

As said then you run into the internal cooldown of that sigil, so where is the benefit in that?

Weapon swap and having other sigil choices would balance this better imo.

Fun fact:

You are not accounting for:

- wvw

- pvp

- pve support (which alone uses up to 3 kits)

Yes, if you look at 1 build at 1 point in time for 1 game mode, kits might seem underwhelming.

Engineer seems to be doing fine in competative modes and has been doing fine for a long time. So that's hardly an argument.

As far as engineer builds outside of Mechanist, let's not omit the toolbelt skills, which are also part of the engineer design.

Sorry but again: simply adding a weapon swap to enginner right now would not go over well without balance changes in other areas, which is the reason they don't get one.

In fact, the only reason engineer and elementalist got a sexond set to begin with has likely to do with the legendary armory and coding issues would be my guess.

Edited April 12 by Cyninja.2954

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

5 hours ago, Dhonti.5162 said:

The current meta only has 2 kits in it, grenade for DPS and elixergun for support, the rest of the kits are not used. So basically that is 1 kit in a build.

Doesn't mean that the other kits aren't available to you if you wanted to use them though. Besides, Tool Kit is used quite frequently as well, as is the Med Kit, and the Mortar Kit, even the Flamethrower gets some use. The only one I don't see used much if ever is the bomb kit.

5 hours ago, Dhonti.5162 said:

As said then you run into the internal cooldown of that sigil, so where is the benefit in that?

I want to remain on my main weapon, but I also want to remove conditions on myself. I can flip to a kit triggering my cleansing sigil and then flip straight back to my weapon. Other classes have to choose whether to stay on their current weapon or swap to their other set to get the cleanse, because they are then stuck on that weapon set until they can swap again.

This function of kits in general makes them superior to regular weapon swapping as you can dip into and out of kits at will.

5 hours ago, Dhonti.5162 said:

Weapon swap and having other sigil choices would balance this better imo.

You are welcome to that opinion but you must recognise that some folks won't agree with you and they will put forth their arguments against your position. If weapon swapping were ever added to Engineer, it would more than likely need to come with additional balancing that you might not like, such as kits then sharing weapon swap cooldown.

[Jerus.4350]

2 hours ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

The only one I don't see used much if ever is the bomb kit.

Someone doesn’t play condi 😛 (had to poke fun, but bomb is good for most condi builds, cMech Jdrive is the only one that doesn’t)

 

 

[SoftPup.3048]

Tool Kit is the only one I'm not sure about being used. I use all the others besides bomb (which is used, just not by my builds).

[Jerus.4350]

Toolkit has gear shield and magnet which will always keep it having uses.  I would love if they’d rework box of nails to not have a horrendous cast time and prybar has lagged behind the power creep.

 

elixir gun could use a rework to glob shot, the bouncing has a mind of its own and it’s not sane.  Acid bomb has also lagged behind power creep.  Address those two and it could be a decent power pick when you want a stunbreak and some more condi cleanse.

 

bomb and nades (yes even nades) don’t really have fundamental problems but have also fallen behind the power creep curve.  FT was specifically nerfed for Mech signets, but it got buffs to the toolbelt later on and it’s not bad imo, just not always good.  The  frequent blasts are underrated and underutilized.  Mortar imo is fine as well.

 

medkit just needs its shotgun bandages back.  It was the ONLY downed state affecting skill healmech had and I want it back.  Also it just makes sense, bandage the person right in front of you really well, or throw bandages and hope people catch them and can patch themselves up.   WHY WAS IT CHANGED?!?

[Dawdler.8521]

7 hours ago, Jerus.4350 said:

 WHY WAS IT CHANGED?!?

Because Purity Of Purpose.

[draxynnic.3719]

Kits preventing the use of utility skills?

Still not sure if serious or mining for urea.

[foxtrot.6902]

Seems valid in sense of where game has gone and comparing to things like shrouds, firebrand, etc then like mentioned all the swap/on use icd give no edge these days except flock which doesn't work for med kit but for mantras, Rev, etc. There is the argument however for the "on demand" flexibility. But shroud, tomes, legends, all count similar without being locked out of weapon set after.

That said, still wouldn't want weapon swap.  I'd rather see kits (and maybe turrets!?) be updated to be better. Most kits can't keep up in damage and are generally confused like, kind of ok for power or conditon but also not really. Keyword most, yes grenades exception and for a pure utility elixir gun is great though could do with out the blast back on acid bomb...

Give kits better aa across the board  (preferably not aimed and button spam). Pipedream, different aa based on main weapon but that's asking too much lol.

Easy example tool kit #1, the aa sucks, update it to be competitive to an actual melee weapon.

Bomb kit is one of few decent power aa but no one wants to roleplay doing squats.

I think if kits had better #1's with some soft # tweaks on other kit skills there'd be a lot less fuss about this topic.

Using kits for damage comes at more of a cost than just the utility slot, indexing in & out for ~1‐2 skills with gcd + cast times has a fee. Example being rifle turret is pretty close to grenade dmg for single target power builds and a whole lot less work/risk.

[strangewayes.2509]

I'd be fine with a long cooldown (or even a cooldown that doesn't reset until you exit combat). I personally find it annoying when I'm using a full melee build out in the world, and there's something ranged that everyone can shoot at, but I'm stuck taking damage, or using a long cooldown just to hit it, when I have a rifle sitting there doing nothing. I know its a hotly debated topic, but that's all I'd really use it for.

[Sindust.7059]

On 4/13/2024 at 12:59 AM, Jerus.4350 said:

bomb and nades (yes even nades) don’t really have fundamental problems

 

On 4/13/2024 at 12:59 AM, Jerus.4350 said:

Mortar imo is fine as well.

Both mortar and grenade kits do have fundamental problems. It's the lack of auto-attack. Grenade kit already has autos when used under water, so I don't see why they couldn't make it work on land too, and give mortar kit the same treatment.

Also mortar kit is weak. It's basically used for its skill 5 on supports, and that skill would be barely worth using a regular utility slot on. Everyone else uses it only if they have to go ranged, because it's a huge DPS loss compared to even just auto attacks on most weapons.

[keramatzmode.1906]

On 4/15/2024 at 1:14 AM, Sindust.7059 said:

 

Both mortar and grenade kits do have fundamental problems. It's the lack of auto-attack. Grenade kit already has autos when used under water, so I don't see why they couldn't make it work on land too, and give mortar kit the same treatment.

Also mortar kit is weak. It's basically used for its skill 5 on supports, and that skill would be barely worth using a regular utility slot on. Everyone else uses it only if they have to go ranged, because it's a huge DPS loss compared to even just auto attacks on most weapons.

Mortar kit is busted.
It is the ONLY AOE AUTO attack in the game with 1500 range. It has zero "CD", you can trigger your elite skill relic at will. And with a condi cleanse should you get immobilized. It is also one of the best option for ranged DPS in PvP and WvW if you don't run melee. Just sit on walls to farm bags at PvE. Or just tag enemies in meta farms. It is absolutely versatile. If anything, the Elixir X and Supply Crate should be buffed. Supply Crate has 120s CD which doesn't recharge fast enough for PvE encounter unlike Gravity Well for example. And Elixir X is randomized so you might not get brute. And turrets in general is so bad for PvE and largely abandoned by the devs ever since they killed bunker engis (and the turrets) way, way back.
While I have no comment on auto attack, it is and effective anti-stealth to prevent thieves from finishing downed allies. Just press 1 on bosses, how hard can it be?

[draxynnic.3719]

Specifically, 'way, way back' is 'prior to HoT'.

[Dawdler.8521]

On 5/19/2024 at 4:33 AM, keramatzmode.1906 said:

Mortar kit is busted.
It is the ONLY AOE AUTO attack in the game with 1500 range. It has zero "CD", you can trigger your elite skill relic at will. And with a condi cleanse should you get immobilized. It is also one of the best option for ranged DPS in PvP and WvW if you don't run melee. Just sit on walls to farm bags at PvE. Or just tag enemies in meta farms. It is absolutely versatile. If anything, the Elixir X and Supply Crate should be buffed. Supply Crate has 120s CD which doesn't recharge fast enough for PvE encounter unlike Gravity Well for example. And Elixir X is randomized so you might not get brute. And turrets in general is so bad for PvE and largely abandoned by the devs ever since they killed bunker engis (and the turrets) way, way back.
While I have no comment on auto attack, it is and effective anti-stealth to prevent thieves from finishing downed allies. Just press 1 on bosses, how hard can it be?

Last time met a hardcore mortar engie in WvW, he missed every single shot as I engaged and got him down without loosing a single HP. He was still lobbing mortar shots as he downed. Really dedicated.

If you think it’s busted other than lobbing shells up walls I am pretty sure you confuse mortar with nade kit.