Turrets and overcharging

[BenaSPACE.6028]

So, I come from way back in the early days of GW2. Engi turrets didn't always only overcharge on drop. At one point, their respective buttons flipped over to overcharge them, and when dropped, the respective toolbelt skills became each turret's respective detonation button. Frankly, having the detonate turret button over where your dropped turret button used to be is an improvement, since having your toolbelt skills available at all times is just generally better-- But this still leaves turrets as a pump and dump kind of skill, barring as just casual boon dispensers.

I'd like to propose a rework that should spice them up a bit:

-Turrets are now affected by your attributes; Numbers should adjust accordingly.
-Turrets now overcharge when their respective toolbelt skill is used. Cooldowns vary based on the turret. (I personally would say start from half the turret's drop cooldown).
-Mechanists can overcharge their turrets by using their F1 skills.
-Turrets from supply crate cannot overcharge after being initially dropped.
-Experimental Turrets now provides its area reflect when a turret overcharges.

[jason.1083]

ArenaNet called, they said your proposal has been duly noted and

Spoiler

promptly ignored.

Thanks for the effort.

[BenaSPACE.6028]

1 hour ago, jason.1083 said:

ArenaNet called, they said your proposal has been duly noted and

  Reveal hidden contents

promptly ignored.

Thanks for the effort.

Sad but likely. 😔

[Zebulon.1850]

The main change turrets need, is to be invulnerable for 2 seconds after placing. I use heal turret in WvW, and basically everyday, in at least one fight, it dies before it overcharges, because it dies literally instantly on place to aoe.

[BenaSPACE.6028]

9 minutes ago, Zebulon.1850 said:

The main change turrets need, is to be invulnerable for 2 seconds after placing. I use heal turret in WvW, and basically everyday, in at least one fight, it dies before it overcharges, because it dies literally instantly on place to aoe.

I wouldn't be against this.

[Liewec.2896]

indeed, they did it so that you have access to toolbelt skills, but imho it was a big fat nerf to the turret playstyle,

turrets are for defending an area, they're something that you set up before a fight,

so having them overcharge immediately and then do nothing but a small bit of damage is very counterproductive to how turrets should be used.

[Panda.1967]

On 4/18/2024 at 6:48 AM, Liewec.2896 said:

indeed, they did it so that you have access to toolbelt skills, but imho it was a big fat nerf to the turret playstyle,

turrets are for defending an area, they're something that you set up before a fight,

so having them overcharge immediately and then do nothing but a small bit of damage is very counterproductive to how turrets should be used.

I said this same thing when the change was first announced… back then people claimed that the optimal way to use turrets was to place in a combo field and detonate… I still to this day think overcharge should be returned as a flip skill. Heck, add a chance to detonate on overcharge even…

[Liewec.2896]

23 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

I said this same thing when the change was first announced… back then people claimed that the optimal way to use turrets was to place in a combo field and detonate… I still to this day think overcharge should be returned as a flip skill. Heck, add a chance to detonate on overcharge even…

yep, people using them to immediately detonate were not using turrets as turrets,

just like now were the turrets appear, do something cool for a moment and then provide nothing but weak DPS.

it was so much better when they could be set up and then provide a meaningful bonus when required.

now they are just standard utility skills in a turret suit.

[AlPower.2476]

I just was thinking about turrets yesterday
In addition, also giving them a "recharge" period of, for examle, 60 secs that gets shortened after using ANY tool kit skill would be good.

I'd say that an animation that  triggers when they're about to become overcharged it's a way to balance them in that case. But you know, ranger pet's can deal big damage from far and animations are not that "predictable"

Edited April 21 by AlPower.2476

[BenaSPACE.6028]

7 hours ago, AlPower.2476 said:

I just was thinking about turrets yesterday
In addition, also giving them a "recharge" period of, for examle, 60 secs that gets shortened after using ANY tool kit skill would be good.

I'd say that an animation that  triggers when they're about to become overcharged it's a way to balance them in that case. But you know, ranger pet's can deal big damage from far and animations are not that "predictable"

I like this idea, too. It's on flavor for engi, I think.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 4/18/2024 at 9:48 PM, Liewec.2896 said:

indeed, they did it so that you have access to toolbelt skills, but imho it was a big fat nerf to the turret playstyle,

turrets are for defending an area, they're something that you set up before a fight,

so having them overcharge immediately and then do nothing but a small bit of damage is very counterproductive to how turrets should be used.

That might well be the point. Turrets were destroyed because it was too easy to bunker a point with turrets.

The answer might end up having to be doing something similar with turrets as was done with mesmer phantasms, guardian spirit weapons, and so on - making them something that drops, rapidly expends its ammunition, and then automatically detonates rather than a persistent object.

[Liewec.2896]

16 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

That might well be the point. Turrets were destroyed because it was too easy to bunker a point with turrets.

yep i remember the nerf, and it was indeed because they were good at defending a position.

but that is entirely the function of turrets!

its quite maddening that the devs made turrets to do what turrets do and then nerfed them because they were doing what they should!

it is also worth noting, that by running a full set of the old style turrets you missed out on a lot of utility because all of your toolbelt skills were just "detonate turret"

and you had no stunbreaks/condi cleanses or anything else, you were literally "all-in" on the turrets.

yes you could make a point dangerous for the enemies, but you personally became a far easier and weaker target, and when the engi dies all of the turrets despawn.

modern builds are waaaaay stronger than turret engi ever was, i think it would be good if turrets saw some love.

[Jerus.4350]

I want them to steal the rocket fist trait mechanic and make turrets activate on weapon skill use.  Make rifle and flame trigger on 2 skills(generally straight damage), net turret trigger on 3, rocket on 4s, and thumper on 5s.  Remove the passive effect and instead make them regular triggers that cause a turret attack aimed towards your target.  Then of course make sure they scale on player stats and adjust the triggers/overcharges to be balanced.  Still limited to the range of the turret attack based on where you place it but they could make them more impactful if they take away the passive mechanic.
 

heal turret I’d leave alone, doesn’t fit well into this system and the passive regen is nice.  No need to change an Engi staple.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 4/23/2024 at 5:52 AM, Liewec.2896 said:

yep i remember the nerf, and it was indeed because they were good at defending a position.

but that is entirely the function of turrets!

its quite maddening that the devs made turrets to do what turrets do and then nerfed them because they were doing what they should!

it is also worth noting, that by running a full set of the old style turrets you missed out on a lot of utility because all of your toolbelt skills were just "detonate turret"

and you had no stunbreaks/condi cleanses or anything else, you were literally "all-in" on the turrets.

yes you could make a point dangerous for the enemies, but you personally became a far easier and weaker target, and when the engi dies all of the turrets despawn.

modern builds are waaaaay stronger than turret engi ever was, i think it would be good if turrets saw some love.

It's been a while, but from memory at the time you could bring Slick Shoes and still have the important turrets, and because your own damage wasn't important you could go full tank stats, run pistol/shield, and be pretty hard to kill yourself. At least some of those factors aren't in play now, though.

Another part was that you could leave turrets on a point while being somewhere a fair distance away, maybe even (weakly) supporting another point altogether, while your turrets deterred a decap.

One of the thoughts I've had was giving them a limited number of shots, but they're persistent until they have something to shoot at that expends their shots. That way they'd be a bit more like traps in that you can use them to fortify a location, but they won't generate indefinite pressure.

[Panda.1967]

15 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

It's been a while, but from memory at the time you could bring Slick Shoes and still have the important turrets, and because your own damage wasn't important you could go full tank stats, run pistol/shield, and be pretty hard to kill yourself. At least some of those factors aren't in play now, though.

Another part was that you could leave turrets on a point while being somewhere a fair distance away, maybe even (weakly) supporting another point altogether, while your turrets deterred a decap.

One of the thoughts I've had was giving them a limited number of shots, but they're persistent until they have something to shoot at that expends their shots. That way they'd be a bit more like traps in that you can use them to fortify a location, but they won't generate indefinite pressure.

The main factor that played into turrets being used that way was the fact that they didn’t use your stats to determine damage (and still don’t)… instead of blanket nerfing their damage how they did, they should have simply made them scale with stats like any other skill, it would have killed off the bunker turret tank builds while still keeping turrets useable… heck simply making turrets scale with stats today would be a huge buff to turrets that would raise them from utterly useless to maybe worth taking in a fight.

[Liewec.2896]

On 4/24/2024 at 8:29 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

It's been a while, but from memory at the time you could bring Slick Shoes and still have the important turrets, and because your own damage wasn't important you could go full tank stats, run pistol/shield, and be pretty hard to kill yourself. At least some of those factors aren't in play now, though.

yep, now we have Jade Mechs, mobile with far more damage than turrets ever had, and able to tank and CC and giving you access to your full utility bar. 😜

[draxynnic.3719]

On 4/25/2024 at 8:57 AM, Panda.1967 said:

The main factor that played into turrets being used that way was the fact that they didn’t use your stats to determine damage (and still don’t)… instead of blanket nerfing their damage how they did, they should have simply made them scale with stats like any other skill, it would have killed off the bunker turret tank builds while still keeping turrets useable… heck simply making turrets scale with stats today would be a huge buff to turrets that would raise them from utterly useless to maybe worth taking in a fight.

Yup, and people have been saying that for years. I think they're worried, though, that a) persistent turrets that gain DPS stats will make afk farming even more prevalent, and b) that might make it even more rewarding to load a point with turrets while keeping your glass cannon self safely away from the point. Hence why I think giving them limited ammunition might have to be part of the solution.

20 hours ago, Liewec.2896 said:

yep, now we have Jade Mechs, mobile with far more damage than turrets ever had, and able to tank and CC and giving you access to your full utility bar. 😜

Not saying I really disagree with what you're expressing (although technically you don't have a full utility bar, it's just the toolbelt skills you're giving up rather than the actual utilities, but I think most people will say the golem skills are good enough to make up for that...), but I think the distinction is that you can't leave a jade mech to defend a location while you go off somewhere else. Heck, the "mechanical genius" change was specifically intended to enforce the engineer and mech staying close(-ish) to one another.

[Gendalfs.7521]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

yep, now we have Jade Mechs, mobile with far more damage than turrets ever had, and able to tank and CC and giving you access to your full utility bar. 😜

Leave Mech alone 🙂 Its OK healer, mediocre boon dps and bad dps.

[Panda.1967]

8 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think they're worried, though, that a) persistent turrets that gain DPS stats will make afk farming even more prevalent, and b) that might make it even more rewarding to load a point with turrets while keeping your glass cannon self safely away from the point. Hence why I think giving them limited ammunition might have to be part of the solution.

I don’t think ammunition is necessary… just give them an operational range, and if the engineer leaves that range the turrets shut down and start to degrade (taking periodic damage until they are destroyed). The exact distance of the operational range would require some testing to find a range that both feels good and isn't easily exploited. I’d think 1500 range would be good, but maybe thats too far and too easy to exploit…

[Ghos.1326]

Interesting ideas.

I would like to see overcharges happen more than once as well. One other thing I'd like to see from turrets, is:

- health and defense increased significantly due to the fact they're stationary targets; adjust damages accordingly

[draxynnic.3719]

On 4/27/2024 at 3:03 AM, Panda.1967 said:

I don’t think ammunition is necessary… just give them an operational range, and if the engineer leaves that range the turrets shut down and start to degrade (taking periodic damage until they are destroyed). The exact distance of the operational range would require some testing to find a range that both feels good and isn't easily exploited. I’d think 1500 range would be good, but maybe thats too far and too easy to exploit…

Ammunition also makes it easier to balance in other ways - it predictably gets a certain number of shots in, goes on cooldown, and can be reused later. Which means that instead of doing mediocre damage continually and then losing even that if you have to move, it can reliably do a significant amount of damage until it runs out, and if the fight moves then it doesn't really matter if the turret is already on cooldown.

I think it's also more elegant than just another leash option. Turrets aren't that big, they probably ARE going to have a finite amount of ammunition.