WvW Changes April 16th 2024

[Spiral.3724]

Stop touching things, Anet. 

Or at least ASK the WvW community as a whole before doing things. You can't just change all this crap based on the opinions of a few insiders.

[Jaruselka.5943]

I wouldn't have an issue with these changes if they also boosted the outnumbered buff along with it. If you are going to make it easier for larger groups to steam roll smaller ones, then at least make the "player interaction" more challenging for the larger group.

[Aeolus.3615]

6 minutes ago, Jaruselka.5943 said:

(snip) challenging for the larger group.

Wrong that all what Anet does not want neither the zergs that give feedback de dev's.

[Riba.3271]

8 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

But...the advantage was with the the attackers

It wasnt. Defenders always had better access to combat siege, respawns, tactivators, mounts/gliding and first engage. If attacking group was organised and pushed in at same time, it doesnt mean you couldnt so same as defender... As long as you timed it. Attackers had to wait for defenders to be exposed and gates in between being down. Defenders could engage anytime.

[Aeolus.3615]

5 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

It wasnt. Defenders always had better access to combat siege, respawns, tactivators, mounts/gliding and first engage. If attacking group was organised and pushed in at same time, it doesnt mean you couldnt so same as defender... As long as you timed it. Attackers had to wait for defenders to be exposed and gates in between being down. Defenders could engage anytime.

That actually deppends the numbers  but overall i dont that that is what happening.

Offensive group only atacks most time if they outman or they have a huge zerg that easilly beat the defenders.

Ac's were nerfed in the past its 600-850 damage to players at max if not in support stats arround 1.5k and a player can only be hited 1 damage tick per sec wich is easilly covered by the ammount minstrells zergs have, so having 10 ac's shooting against 1 players its the same has 1 ac against that player, can only be damage from 1 ac's each second.

The offensive force also has perma domes from shields against defensive structures sieges.

 

The advantage at the end might  come to whom has more boon spam and players nothing more, usually it is actually the offending force, structures were already easy to take lol.. now they are mega easy due how population gap exists.

Edited April 17 by Aeolus.3615

[Chaba.5410]

1 minute ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

The advantage comes to whom has more boon spam and players nothing more, usually it is actually the offending force, strucutures were already easy to take lol.. now they are mega easy.

Don't forget guild aura stats!

[Riba.3271]

6 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

The advantage comes to whom has more boon spam and players nothing more, usually it is actually the offending force, strucutures were already easy to take lol.. now they are mega easy.

That doesnt mean attackers were given an advantage. They were just better or more players. Defenders have more options what to do in and when to take the deciding fight. Attackers have no combat advantages, defenders do (Siege, gliding, portals, timing, tactivators) in addition to several respawns if they arrive early

Edited April 17 by Riba.3271

[Killek.8253]

May as well have the option to parachute/rope-slide into the objective via copter or airship, holy hell. 

[urd.8306]

Just now, Riba.3271 said:

That doesnt mean attackers were given an advantage. They were just better or more players. Defenders have more options what to do in and when to take the deciding fight. Attackers have no combat advantages, defenders do (Siege, gliding, portals, timing, tactivators)

You must be very new to this game if you really think Defenders were at an advantage in any fight of the last 7 years. You sure that you played WvW before?

[Chaba.5410]

Riba, you're going to have a difficulty talking about defender/attacker advantages and balance when people here keep conflating it with smaller v. larger groups.

Edited April 17 by Chaba.5410

[Riba.3271]

1 minute ago, urd.8306 said:

2 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

(Siege, gliding, portals, timing, tactivators)

You must be very new to this game if you really think Defenders were at an advantage in any fight of the last 7 years. You sure that you played WvW before?

Then list something that attackers could do to win fight that defenders cant.

[Lagniappe.4869]

2 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

That doesnt mean attackers were given an advantage. They were just better or more players. Defenders have more options what to do in and when to take the deciding fight. Attackers have no combat advantages, defenders do (Siege, gliding, portals, timing, tactivators) in addition to several respawns if they arrive early

 

What? There's a fight because the attackers decided to attack, which they're most likely to do when they feel like they have an advantage. Defenders don't get to choose where the attack happens or who and how many people they have to defend.

[Riba.3271]

3 minutes ago, Lagniappe.4869 said:

Defenders don't get to choose where the attack happens or who and how many people they have to defend

So you are saying much weaker or smaller group should be able to hold an objective. This would mean defenders has the advantage.. I understand that 20 people will propably be able to kill 30 with siege, respawns and tactivators, but what you guys are asking is 15vs40 to be doable.

Edited April 17 by Riba.3271

[Lagniappe.4869]

2 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

Then list something that attackers could do to win fight that defenders cant.

• Control when and where they are attacking: e.g. attack an objective when they know the defender is engaged elsewhere and there are few defenders around
• Kill siege from a distance with ballies and trebs
• Tap keep to keep defenders from arriving too quickly

[urd.8306]

Just now, Riba.3271 said:

Then list something that attackers could do to win fight that defenders cant.

Wait? You really think "Attacking" should be equal to "Defending"? In that case I won't even start a discussion. Of course a defender should always have, on equal numbers, a huge advantage. You don't need a keep if that isn't the case.
And you still have too many advantages as an attacker. Placing of siege in or close to walls, walls as death traps for defenders, the option to block the way into the structure, etc.
A defense isn't an open field fight and never should be one. A keep should be defendable with less than a zerg vs a full zerg. That's why Keeps and Castles and Fortresses exist. WvW always was a game about sieging.
 

[urd.8306]

On 4/17/2024 at 5:19 PM, Riba.3271 said:

So you are saying much weaker or smaller group should be able to hold an objective. This would mean defenders has the advantage

Of course. THAT IS THE WHOLE IDEA OF A CASTLE OR KEEP.

Edited May 23 by urd.8306
i d e a

[Aeolus.3615]

45 minutes ago, Spiral.3724 said:

Stop touching things, Anet. 

Or at least ASK the WvW community as a whole before doing things. You can't just change all this crap based on the opinions of a few insiders.

 

But that is what defines the advantage on equal numbers lets assume this way, the offender still have a minor advantage towards defenders due game gimmicks:

- Pulls players form walls or in stairs or any player that is using siege on wall.

- Kill every siege on walls from outter.

- Some classes and LoS  and aoe interior and players/siege.

- LoS on defensing team is actually problematic wich leads players trying to gain los to be killed from outter.

- No LoS for proxy siege or siege that looks like was glued inside the wall lol...

At the end the offenders have the LoS advantage and the sustain overal all siege due the amount of minstrells in the zerg, AC's are easy to sustain from a zerg perspective.

Edited April 17 by Aeolus.3615

[Chaba.5410]

4 minutes ago, urd.8306 said:

Of course a defender should always have, on equal numbers, a huge advantage

With equal numbers, defenders have always had a roughly 2 to 1 advantage over attackers.  That balance shifted towards defenders when HoT was released and introduced things like tactics, higher wall/gate HP (which has since been brought down), and guild objective auras.  This in turn resulted in the unintended consequence of attackers needing even more numbers.  It should be brought back down to pre-HoT.

It's been pretty noticeable for awhile now with even numbers that defenders will win a fight inside their objectives and then push out to some place they no longer have the guild buffs and wipe to the other group.

Edited April 17 by Chaba.5410

[Aeolus.3615]

9 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

With equal numbers, defenders have always had a roughly 2 to 1 advantage over attackers.  That balance shifted towards defenders when HoT was released and introduced things like tactics, higher wall/gate HP (which has since been brought down), and guild objective auras.  It should be brought back down to pre-HoT.

It's been pretty noticeable for awhile now with even numbers that defenders will win a fight inside their objectives and then push out to some place they no longer have the guild buffs and wipe to the other group.

EDite d: What advantages defenders do have that are missing from my part that can easilly deal with the lack of LoS over the enemy and the enemy sustain?

Edited April 17 by Aeolus.3615

[Riba.3271]

7 minutes ago, Lagniappe.4869 said:

Control when and where they are attacking: e.g. attack an objective when they know the defender is engaged elsewhere and there are few defenders around

This is just time issue. If walls are so weak defenders dont have time to walk from spawn, then buff them.

8 minutes ago, Lagniappe.4869 said:

Kill siege from a distance with ballies and trebs

Killing some of the Siege and proceeding to have no siege yourself when you push in, is not an advantage. Defender will still have more siege on the fight.

10 minutes ago, Lagniappe.4869 said:

Tap keep to keep defenders from arriving too quickly

Both teams can do this. This is basically same as point 1. If defenders need more Time to arrive in time, then nerf fastest ways to get inside lord room (boon golems, shields gens), dont add stat buffs that won't give defenders More time.

[Derktarlms.6213]

It is no longer worth defending but capturing camps with this update

[Chaba.5410]

21 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

EDite d: What advantages defenders do have that are missing from my part that can easilly deal with the lack of LoS over the enemy and the enemy sustain?

Sorry, I'm not understanding what you are trying to say.  You're asking what defenders have to deal with the lack of LoS and enemy sustain?

[Aeolus.3615]

22 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Sorry, I'm not understanding what you are trying to say.  You're asking what defenders have to deal with the lack of LoS and enemy sustain?

Sorta, ill try to rephrase "engrish" in not my forte :)

Which advantages have the defenders above offenders that makes their gameplay easier ??

Note this things:

->Siege can be wiped with easy from the offense team still on outter as well due better LoS then the defenders.

-> Defenders dont have much LoS for enemy siege if the siege is well placed, neither can outdamages enemy due sustain due the overusage of minstrell stats,  and the AC's nerf 1 hit per sec and per player.

Cause besides go in open field with similiar numbers (even with slightly less ) and fight the enemy directly i cant think off anything else,  in terms of siege gameplay offenders will have most time the advantage.

 

Edited April 17 by Aeolus.3615

[Chaba.5410]

9 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Sorta, ill try to rephrase "engrish" in not my forte 🙂

Which advantages have the defenders above offenders that makes their gameplay easier while they dont have LoS for siege neither outdamages enemy due sustain due the overusage of minstrell stats, and ac's is useless.

Siege can be wiped with easy from the offense team as well due better LoS then the defenders.

Cause besides go in open field with similiar numbers (even with slightly less ) and fight the enemy directly i cant think off anything else.

Not having LoS for siege sounds like knowledge or lack of knowledge with siege placement.  Attackers can also have LoS issues against defender siege; most famously are catas placed up on the third floor of SMC.

You ask what defenders have for dealing with attacker sustain (combat balance) and the answer is the extra stats from guild objective auras.

[Zephyrus.9680]

Quote

We feel that these changes will help to incentivize more player vs. player interactions while still allowing for defensive tactical gameplay. 

In my experience larger capture circles promote fights and sometimes even allow the weaker side to win. Making capture circles smaller seems like a bad and anti-PvP change. Karma trainers will like it though.