Vindicator has far too much evades, blocks, defense to be doing the amount of damage, and aoe damage that it does, what's the philospophy?

[Flowki.7194]

13 minutes ago, Aaron.1294 said:

@arazoth.7290 therefore making it easier to land but also easier to counter should make it less oppressive  when rev decides to go even tankier build

@Flowki.7194 Tell me man, what do you think "top level gamer" is in gw2 right now. Dude that knows what dodge means? Or maybe the one that can stow their weapons so they won't get their projectiles reflected or cds wasted? or maybe the one who can deliver combos while kiting?

All I can see that there is a problem with vindi, most players are very unhappy that it can delete ur hp bar while having better defensive options and deal more damage than sword/sword and is RANGED. If you can't see it as a problem because of "high skill floor gaming" that requires you to understand what dodging or kiting is, u shouldn't make any comments about balance because you have 0 clue what you're talking about.

 

 

 

Condisdering I played hammer vindi back when people laughed at you for playing it, and I have never lost or had to leave a fight vs an average level FOTM vindi, I think I can chime in. I lost or had to leave fights vs FOTM staff SPB, SLB, Scrapper, DH etc, when they were broken.

 

If vindi is broken, it is at top level. I already said p1 is a joke, you can get their from RNG or off peak duo dodging, I don't value or trust the skill level of anybody P1. If people who place P2+ every season collectively say hammer vindi is brokent at high level, then hammer vindi is broken at high level. Move on already.. becuase true p2 hammer vindis will destroy 95% of these complainers on any decent power spec. You'd be lucky if 2 people in this thread are even at that level to make a genuine comment of that level.

Edited April 30 by Flowki.7194

[Aaron.1294]

@Flowki.7194dude... I dunno watch some streamers see for yourself I guess or get into P2 actually and then tell everyone how vindi is balanced

And I saw your playstyle, this entire argumentation about "not losing" against avg vindi again - tell me what makes avg vindi average

Edited April 30 by Aaron.1294

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Aaron.1294 said:

@arazoth.7290 therefore making it easier to land but also easier to counter should make it less oppressive  when rev decides to go even tankier build

@Flowki.7194 Tell me man, what do you think "top level gamer" is in gw2 right now. Dude that knows what dodge means? Or maybe the one that can stow their weapons so they won't get their projectiles reflected or cds wasted? or maybe the one who can deliver combos while kiting?

All I can see that there is a problem with vindi, most players are very unhappy that it can delete ur hp bar while having better defensive options and deal more damage than sword/sword and is RANGED. If you can't see it as a problem because of "high skill floor gaming" that requires you to understand what dodging or kiting is, u shouldn't make any comments about balance because you have 0 clue what you're talking about.

 

 

If it lands faster it's hardee to react, so not easier, no logic there.

And s/s on revenant need an update because they aren't that good/up to date anymore 

[Buran.3796]

Didn't saw the MATs this weekend, any single Vindi or Rev in the 20 finalist in April?

[Aaron.1294]

@arazoth.7290 s/s is not up to date because of what exactly? Because it's not broken as other weapons? Because it can't spam AA and win? Last time I checked it is perfectly fine, just added/reworked weapons being INSANELY stupid lately.

if it lands faster it's harder to react for ur enemy but it's easier to punish rev due to it's evasive nature, rn it's mainly used as a defensive tool ONLY

if vindi receive some changes instead and other especs get deserved update I'm all for it, but I'm sure most of rev players are aware of how anet tend to balance things... 

Edited April 30 by Aaron.1294

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Aaron.1294 said:

@Flowki.7194dude... I dunno watch some streamers see for yourself I guess or get into P2 actually and then tell everyone how vindi is balanced

And I saw your playstyle, this entire argumentation about "not losing" against avg vindi again - tell me what makes avg vindi average

Hahaha they always have to get personal 😜 

 

Listen bud, donn't vent on me becuase youre getting owned by people better at the game than you.

[Aaron.1294]

@Flowki.7194dude you're brought rank in the first place, Your entire understanding of balance is based on your ranked experience/1v1's that you're doing etc.

I ask again-tell me what makes a gw2 pvp player average in your opinion then we can talk.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

40 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

Didn't saw the MATs this weekend, any single Vindi or Rev in the 20 finalist in April?

both of them

[Flowki.7194]

13 minutes ago, Aaron.1294 said:

@Flowki.7194dude you're brought rank in the first place, Your entire understanding of balance is based on your ranked experience/1v1's that you're doing etc.

I ask again-tell me what makes a gw2 pvp player average in your opinion then we can talk.

Talk about what? An average player is an average player. Stop deflecting from the fact the average hammer vindi is not overperforming like the average player was on staff SPB, condi cata, SLB.. things that were broken up and down the system. I'd rather have an avg SLB/WB/DH on my team than an average hammer vindi.. spamming all his dodges/dps in the first 6 seconds then dying on the spot becuase he had no energy left for a stun break, same as the average herald. Why the fk do you think rev is so under played?.. 0 fks are given by the pvp gods if you get greedy with energy <dead>.

[arazoth.7290]

6 minutes ago, Aaron.1294 said:

@arazoth.7290 s/s in comp to most weapons in the entire game is up to date. What even is this argument??

They are really mediocre/below for how cluncky they work atm/do. There have been many complaints already ln this and even a current thread, it is really. With other revenant weapons there are some issues too but that's not for this thread here.

10 minutes ago, Aaron.1294 said:

@arazoth.7290

if it lands faster it's harder to react for ur enemy but it's easier to punish rev due to it's evasive nature, rn it's mainly used as a defensive tool ONLY

It would give even more burst potential combos, which leads to more people getting annoyed by it. The lower evade uptime wouldn't hurt vindi that much because of the now potential more aggressive burst combos you can make it while on evasive. Do this and people will make as fast threads about it, including you that it wasn't after all that thought out. 

It's already punishing since you now can easier see when it's about to end and you can time in some damage/cc at these openings.

14 minutes ago, Aaron.1294 said:

@arazoth.7290

if vindi receive some changes instead and other especs get deserved update I'm all for it, but I'm sure most of rev players are aware of how anet tend to balance things... 

Yea I know... look at Renegade state or Herald state, I would like them to better too 😐.

Just an example for vindi what they could do instead dodge damages/ healing/barrier giving: (This aside what happens to hammer nerf or buff (probably no buff lmao, manner of speech rather)).

• Death Drop instead of the damage it does, it empowers archemorus abilties, 1 charge/dodge, they stack up.

• Imperial Impact instead of the damage it does, it empowers archemorus/Saint viktor abilities, 1 charge/dodge, they stack up. It would been a generalised effect for both, no different.

• Saint's Shield Instead of the healing/barrier it grants, it empowers Saint Viktor abilities, 1 charge/dodge, they stack up.

• Reaver's Curse: enchances these further and reduces Energy meld cd like it is now.

• Angsiyan's Trust: stays same

• Song of Arboreum: Grants vigor to you/allies, no instant endurance increase anymore.

Outgoing Allies affected by your vigor have 10% higher outgoing damage and 10 % higher incoming healing, 15% higher incoming boon duration.

• Redemptor's Sermon: Simplest way, reduce cd to 45 seconds in pvp/WvW and pve to 20 seconds. Health minimum effect trigger on 80% health. 

• Energy meld: Instead of the 15, 25 endurance it, if used it grants you 2 empowerment charges.

• Alliance Tactics: in PvP/WvW 5 second cd, in pve 3 second cd is fine. So now switching between each other is more fluent but still has some cd to be aware off.

[Aaron.1294]

@Flowki.7194because the skill level of avg player is different for different players. And that's because of population being very low... So your "average player" for others can be just a newbie (and if you base ur avg player on newbies....uhhh) and rev is not underplayed nor it ever was...that's just a lie

@arazoth.7290 They are far less clunky than most weapons, even hammer rev

If it comes to hammer main problem is that espec with vindicator there's little to no window to effectively punish it before vindi gets energy back, it wasn't like that previously because right now hammer has an actual AA pressure and insanely high damaging ability. It's punishing only if you're using it wrong, same can be said with sword 3 where u can't control ur character but it's still an evade and it's damage however it has a counter - cast time. Hammer 3 not only has insta cast on command but it's ranged, it's also a hard hitter like hammer 2 and it only has 12 sec cd, with empowered vindi dodges, battle dance and riposting shadow u can easily be untouchable for 5 secs + while also hard hitting ur enemies and outrunning them with rev's mobility

As I said earlier, if vindi get some changes and other specs get some love I'm all for it, but nobody and I mean NOBODY want bunker dodge spammer meta

and I forgot that sword offhand cannot be used out of range

Edited April 30 by Aaron.1294

[Buran.3796]

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

both of them

  Do they went from 0 in the previous two months to two? Why? Rev had 0 buffs in the last two balance patches.

  The only way a build replaces other in the MAT meta without balance buffs is because someone was bored, tried out something that worked for him and people copycats. I've seen 1 hammer Rev in my last 100 matches. I'm all for nerfing Vindicator all you want, but I don't see how is overperforming. In pure glass canon zerk stats the damage is garbage; I ended moving to  Demolisher & Jalis instead in the last 3v3 season because dps Vindi wasn't worth it... 

[arazoth.7290]

6 minutes ago, Aaron.1294 said:

@Flowki.7194because the skill level of avg player is different for different players. And that's because of population being very low... So your "average player" for others can be just a newbie (and if you base ur avg player on newbies....uhhh) and rev is not underplayed nor it ever was...that's just a lie

@arazoth.7290 They are far less clunky than most weapons, even hammer rev

If it comes to hammer main problem is that espec with vindicator there's little to no window to effectively punish it before vindi gets energy back, it wasn't like that previously because right now hammer has an actual AA pressure and insanely high damaging ability. It's punishing only if you're using it wrong, same can be said with sword 3 where u can't control ur character but it's still an evade and it's damage however it has a counter - cast time. Hammer 3 not only has insta cast on command but it's ranged, it's also a hard hitter like hammer 2 and it only has 12 sec cd, with empowered vindi dodges, battle dance and riposting shadow u can easily be untouchable for 5 secs + while also hard hitting ur enemies and outrunning them with rev's mobility

As I said earlier, if vindi get some changes and other specs get some love I'm all for it, but nobody and I mean NOBODY want bunker dodge spammer meta

and I forgot that sword offhand cannot be used out of range

If I go on power revenant, I go in full glass, even on renegade. 

The hammer leap 3 how it current is 1,5 seconds makes it slower, and interupts damage burst sequence because you evade and hit on the end part. If it's faster it's just another fast offensive less counterable. And I think how it is currently 1,5 seconds having some time to counter skill 3 is more then enough. I don't want it to sync burst with skill 2, that's just too much if you would make it faster 😬. 

About swords. Main hand evade skill 3, 450 range is low and ppl tend to outrun it while casting before it goes off even and cd is used then. Sword skill 4, long cast time for low debilating conditions. Skill 5 initial striking range 130 units after teleport, which can miss often the final hit to trigger which is also 130 units striking range...

And Sword skill 2 written tooltip isn't updated, but for my part that could be a 450 range teleport on target with that 240 radius aoe hit.

 

 

[Aaron.1294]

@arazoth.7290 You see the problem lies not in damage itself - you need to aim with it so it's easilly dodgeable by movement and rev kinda need to predict it, problem lies within these 1,5 sec where rev sry vindi can freely generate energy w/o kiting. 

The only thing that can outrun good usage of sword 3 is thief and engi and skill 5 is well instant (I mean shadowstep itself) And with it u should follow ur enemy (??) sword 4 is a huge aoe still and deals mediocre dmg, it's prob one of the most balanced skills in the entire game,

[Gotejjeken.1267]

29 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

  Do they went from 0 in the previous two months to two? Why? Rev had 0 buffs in the last two balance patches.

Without seeing it, guessing because staff warrior nerfs allowed Vindi to move up into actual mAT play as slots opened up.  

I don't know about you, but facing actual top vindi can say that the damage is pretty insane if you aren't sure what to look for, because you are getting damaged by literally everything they do close up.  Even if you do know what to look for, you have to be super careful--if vindi hammer is 'mediocre damage' than I'm not sure what burst damage is anymore.

Like, for burst classes, I can fight a thief or an engi on a point--good reaper less so (like idk who "Ruby Pumps" actual main is but face them when I was p1 level and in ATs, and they are very good Reaper on NA), and vindi is very tough for my M/M ranger.  It's no less oppressive than daze druid or Untamed, but does more damage and opponent has less time to react to said damage.  

I actually want to watch the mAT this time to see what's all in it though.  

Edited April 30 by Gotejjeken.1267

[arazoth.7290]

2 minutes ago, Aaron.1294 said:

@arazoth.7290 You see the problem lies not in damage itself 

It will with shorter evade/faster hitting it for even higher bursts then currently...

 

5 minutes ago, Aaron.1294 said:

@arazoth.7290 

The only thing that can outrun good usage of sword 3 is thief and engi and skill 5 is well instant (I mean shadowstep itself) And with it u should follow ur enemy (??) sword 4 is a huge aoe still and deals mediocre dmg, it's prob one of the most balanced skills in the entire game,

Not true for skill 3, you should try it yourself more often, I played it enough to see. It gives some breathing room yes for energy useage in many other ways also which you ignored. You're coming here with suggestion to "balance" it, while it would make it worse for the enemies atm... 

If you think 0,75 second less evade and 3,5 less energy regain during it for a lot bigger higher burst combo then now is available, then you're so wrong.

You complained about hammer skill 4 doing potential burst damage with hammer skill 2 too much. Well if we add now this ontop of it we have 3, even if field of mist damage would get 25-30% damage nerf. It would be even stronger and I would 1 shot you just to proof if this ever happens. In ranked the trolls I could do with that full glass revenant 😂.

For Sword skill 5 it being a teleport for following target, yes, but there is no reason this damage can miss a lot because 130 unit range as follow up. And sword skill 4, 1 second cast time for mediocre aoe damage/weak duration debilating conditions is balanced😂?

[Aaron.1294]

@arazoth.7290I played revenant for 3 yrs like dunno 3-4 yrs ago last time...and yes 0,75 sec evade makes extremely huge difference espec when you're getting outnumbered

If you want it to be a burst weapon then hammer 3 shouldn't have insanely long insta evade, then we can adjust other skills with proper damage, 

and, if you didn't know, hammer tank rev was used for hammer 3 and hammer 4 mainly in mat

[Terrorhuz.4695]

57 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

  Do they went from 0 in the previous two months to two? Why?

How the f would I know? But when every gs skill hits for 5k, every hammer skill hits for 7k and you have the survivability of a bunker you do come up with something.

 

[arazoth.7290]

8 minutes ago, Aaron.1294 said:

@arazoth.7290I played revenant for 3 yrs like dunno 3-4 yrs ago last time...and yes 0,75 sec evade makes extremely huge difference espec when you're getting outnumbered

If you want it to be a burst weapon then hammer 3 shouldn't have insanely long insta evade, then we can adjust other skills with proper damage, 

and, if you didn't know, hammer tank rev was used for hammer 3 and hammer 4 mainly in mat

okee you do you, but don't come complain afterwards if this could get possible for doing too much damage

[Sereath.1428]

ANET reinvent the wheel moment. Someone here wanting to change the one skill that wasn't buffed on Hammer.

"They should start by addressing what didn't need to be better, such as #4."
- Someone experienced
"I'll pretend I didn't hear that. They should change random bs that annoys me instead. Yes, nerf this skill from 2015."
- The average something

Edited May 1 by Sereath.1428

[Myror.7521]

@Buran.3796 to correct you here sir. Vindi was played on the Monthly before last one. It only not managed to win/get into finals. 

[Buran.3796]

8 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Buran.3796 to correct you here sir. Vindi was played on the Monthly before last one. It only not managed to win/get into finals. 

   We had like 2-3 Revs in the whole MATs at February and March, and none of them were riding hammer. Also: none of them did reach the finals, so no single Rev (Vindicator or other) in the top 20 MATs in EU at Feb or March.

    Rev's hammer or Vindi didn't got a single PvP buff in the last 2 balance patches, and I'm not seing hammer Revs in ranked (EU), tho some of you say hammer Revs were present in the April MAT (still have to see it, due apparently there's no streams). So my guess is that hammer Rev has been a bad build consistently since the start of the year, and only nerfs to good buids made viable to play with bad builds (like DH). Is that the case? So PvP pupulation go to South and continous nerfs across all the board over two years made mediocre builds viable... that's my guess.

[Myror.7521]

@Buran.3796 not that ^^ it simply got a rework is some of the latest Updates xd

[Flowki.7194]

6 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   We had like 2-3 Revs in the whole MATs at February and March, and none of them were riding hammer. Also: none of them did reach the finals, so no single Rev (Vindicator or other) in the top 20 MATs in EU at Feb or March.

    Rev's hammer or Vindi didn't got a single PvP buff in the last 2 balance patches, and I'm not seing hammer Revs in ranked (EU), tho some of you say hammer Revs were present in the April MAT (still have to see it, due apparently there's no streams). So my guess is that hammer Rev has been a bad build consistently since the start of the year, and only nerfs to good buids made viable to play with bad builds (like DH). Is that the case? So PvP pupulation go to South and continous nerfs across all the board over two years made mediocre builds viable... that's my guess.

That is partially true, but death drop has been a running issue which most agree with.

 

It is undeniable that the power CO's on hammer are high, yet pre-buff hammer 5 was aweful to use defensively, and only really worked offensively if enemy were very distracted in group fights. The buff to 5 cast was massive, but they slapped on a hammer 2 refresh for no good reason, other than a lazy compensation for how terrain bugged it is? Hammer 5 is not as situational now, which gives you a better chance (especially in melee range) to hit 2x hammer 2, and then death drop damage.

 

It does not change the fact hammer2 is still fking horendously buggy on terrain and easy to avoid at range, or that vindi still has the same counter measure it always had, time CC between evades, or spam the floor with condi fields. I can't see them fixing hammer 2 bug, yet to remove death drop and hammer 2 refresh.. it will just end up in the trash pile again. A faster hammer 5 does not make up for buggy/unreliable hammer 2, which forces you into melee range -deathdrop damage.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 4/30/2024 at 9:47 AM, Endorphin.9147 said:

6 pages later and people are still trying to crack the code on hammer vindi

When your class is simple people think they can simply balance you, despite the nuance of simple mechanics being hard to make unpredictable.

When your class is complex the opposite happens, even if the resulting game loop that is causing problems/concern is simple. 

It's really funny. 

Dodging shouldn't do eviscerate level damage if your kit has several hard hitting, mandatory dodge skills already.  We went over this with vault thief and reckless dodge warrior. 

Hammer sucks outside of backlining. Vindi has found a way of mitigating the fact it can't do well up close to opponents by punishing anyone that gets close to it with 4.5 k evade chains.

If hammer is a backline weapon, see to it that it adheres to its role like other class weapons have been  made to do so when unexpected class synergies come up.  Its not like rev is starved for choice when it comes to usable damage options.

But that's just my opinion. 

Edited May 1 by Azure The Heartless.3261