Stealth on dodge for DE needs to go...

[magickthief.6492]

Figure something else out, and maybe not make all the elite specs of thief reliant on the "stealth attack" mechanic.

[Voodoo.3201]

Buff thief buff deadeye

[Langeball.9351]

Just give all stealth a penalty: "You take 50% increased damage".

[arazoth.7290]

6 minutes ago, Langeball.9351 said:

Just give all stealth a penalty: "You take 50% increased damage".

"balanced"

[ZoXLike.9073]

every thief spec uses stealth attack, otherwise its not a thief... its like the core mechanic of the class to use stealh

 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 5/22/2024 at 11:49 PM, magickthief.6492 said:

Figure something else out, and maybe not make all the elite specs of thief reliant on the "stealth attack" mechanic.

Tried it, got "thief evade/mobile/blindspams 2 much" immediately after.

Just accept people don't like interaction with any iteration of thief that doesn't feed them loot. Use your mechanics.

 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Stealth is far healthier than blind.  Blind is actually probably the most degen condition in the game, but most won't see it as it isn't always obvious you are getting blinded without watching the bar constantly.  

Blinding Powder, Black Powder, etc. is what is making DE so oppressive, and people are blaming it all on stealth.  

[Szymon.5369]

4 hours ago, ZoXLike.9073 said:

every thief spec uses stealth attack, otherwise its not a thief... its like the core mechanic of the class to use stealh

 

Specter doesn't care too much about it. Which also reminds me we should be lobbying ANet to add an ambush to Shadow Shroud, because there is none 😕 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Stealth is far healthier than blind.  Blind is actually probably the most degen condition in the game, but most won't see it as it isn't always obvious you are getting blinded without watching the bar constantly.  

Blinding Powder, Black Powder, etc. is what is making DE so oppressive, and people are blaming it all on stealth.  

While I respect your opinion and its genuineness, this is the merry go round of "actually its this" that keeps happening that I was referring to. More people have this opinion, but they will only arrive at it when or if stealth gets reworked and they find themselves just as frustrated.

Goalpost is in a superposition between whatever people want to nerf first, and whatever they want to nerf if the first thing gets nerfed. Both of those things have counterplay and counterstratgies already. You'll never be able to placate people who think thief is one rework from being objectively fair because that state doesn't exist.

Best thing to do is make sure people have a button or build they can press/use that makes fighting thieves easier, and if they have that, suggest they use it. 

Edited May 25 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[WhoWantsAHug.3186]

2 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Stealth is far healthier than blind.  Blind is actually probably the most degen condition in the game, but most won't see it as it isn't always obvious you are getting blinded without watching the bar constantly.  

Blinding Powder, Black Powder, etc. is what is making DE so oppressive, and people are blaming it all on stealth.  

Uhh I'm gonna omega hard disagree on this one. DE is so obscenely strong because of its stealth access in conjunction with Shadow Arts.

When a deadeye dodges with rifle, they remove condis, get superspeed, gain access to an extremely powerful attack, and regenerate initiative. All of this on top of the literal act of going invisible which has its own obvious strengths. 

DE dodge on stealth with SA is the most overloaded interaction in the game. Tbh I'd be fine with this if revealed lasted longer, but 6 seconds is just not enough. DE is just extremely effect and feels absolutely awful to play against, especially if your spec lacks counterplay, which is most builds.

On top of all of this, DE is the only thief spec in the game that can reset steal CD with both a utility and a kill, giving them super high vigor uptime to dodge more often. 

Rifle really is the most overloaded weapon in the game, I mean think about it. Long ranged weap with a stealth attack, spammable stealth, a mobility skill that doubles as a condi cleanse AND can travel up the Z axis, Projection denial wall. Ohh AND the stealth on dodgr

But I get the defensive stance. It's a build that people enjoy and it shouldn't be nerfed out of existence. This is why I really just think revealed should last 8 to 10 seconds. It's the healthiest way to balance DE and thief in general IMO.

 

Edited May 25 by WhoWantsAHug.3186

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

34 minutes ago, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

 

But I get the defensive stance. It's a build that people enjoy and it shouldn't be nerfed out of existence. This is why I really just think revealed should last 8 to 10 seconds. It's the healthiest way to balance DE and thief in general IMO.

 

Imagine getting a backstab attempt once, and now you have to survive for 8-10 seconds without access to your damaging skill, your stealth tied traits, etc.

 You mention you don't want to nerf thief or de out of existence, then suggest exactly that.  Did you see how thieves reacted to the lock on nerf? People love saddling classes with hoops to jump through that they'd quit the game over if it even partially got applied that way to them.

Try playing de or any other thief and counting to 8-10 without entering stealth vs anyone actively trying to kill you, see how workable that is to you. 

Edited May 25 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Gotejjeken.1267]

3 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Best thing to do is make sure people have a button or build they can press/use that makes fighting thieves easier, and if they have that, suggest they use it. 

They do, and still don't use them. 

Since topic is about DE, it has very obvious tells as to what it is about to do, and there are many, many projectile hate options across every class.  Those are the buttons people should be using, and time and time again see the 'deer in a headlights' when someone literally watches the thief go into stealth and stands there then gets instagibbed.

But, stealth, by itself...does nothing.  

For me as a Ranger, if a DE is around, I use Turtle, and also have staff, untamed bubble, etc. etc. to mitigate any burst.  When they are in stealth, just wait it out...they have to come out of stealth to attack.  Even stealth attacks right now only crit for what 8k? That's barely a third of my health--and even squishy classes have super access to prot/hate bubbles/auras (i.e. ele).   

Anyway, my point about the blind is the counter-attack opportunities are small, because stealth can be cleaved through--but blind prevents this.   Blind is literally the only danger to me when facing a thief, as they can hit hard with attacks that blind (again preventing counterattack) AND go into stealth.  That becomes very tough to manage and leans into somewhat unmanageable territory if there are two coordinated thieves around.  

[Shagie.7612]

DE gatekeeping like 75% of the game
but remember thief is awful and it's unfair that anyone ever says anything critical about the class

SA is a bonkers traitline, I wish my utility traitlines were half as useful

[Voodoo.3201]

Just wait when de isnt around theyll change the word to drd 🤣

[Zekent.3652]

A thief main against stealth!?
 

Here!?

In my forums!!!???

[bq pd.2148]

19 minutes ago, Zekent.3652 said:

A thief main against stealth!?

maybe just against DE access to it, they don't complain about stealth, but silent scope specifically. 
while they also notice that deadeye actually needs its stealth attack and thus frequent stealth access.

edit:
for example one could change silent scope to:

• hitting your mark with a stealth attack while at 5+ malice restores your stolen skill.

its still very frequent stealth access if you actually hit your target, but now there is some counterplay. as bonus the deadeye can now  use their dodge to evade attack without wasting a chance to stealth.

Edited May 26 by bq pd.2148

[Szymon.5369]

Maybe second half of SA stuff should proc only when revealing yourself out of stealth, not just when it drops?

[bq pd.2148]

1 hour ago, Szymon.5369 said:

Maybe second half of SA stuff should proc only when revealing yourself out of stealth, not just when it drops?

knowing anet it would more likely apply on any reveal, which Death's Judgement applies 2x: on cast and on hit.

[Flowki.7194]

19 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Tried it, got "thief evade/mobile/blindspams 2 much" immediately after.

Just accept people don't like interaction with any iteration of thief that doesn't feed them loot. Use your mechanics.

 

Would you ever admit that thief in gw2 is basically toxic to fight in any itteration? I don't expect free loot from any engagement, but I do expect engagements to end in one way: If they make bad choices they die. Thief is mechanically designed in such a way that it can recover from bad choices, over and over again.. even specter is at it with the bloated 3 melee disengage, to the point those bad choices are now called "playstyles". I truly mean this, I cannot see the line between the overlap of a thiefs skill, and its toxic crutch mechanics. When they TP to me through terrain into an instant immob>daze while spamming 3, where am I suppose to see the skill? where was the counter play as 3/4 of my health got deleted? And then if I recover from that "skill jump", and begin to turn the fight around, he escapes. How on earth can you expect me to take that class serious under such conditions? DE is even lower risk dmg than that.

Edited May 26 by Flowki.7194

[bq pd.2148]

7 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

 where was the counter play as 3/4 of my health got deleted? And then if I recover from that "skill jump", and begin to turn the fight around, he escapes.

and your tools that let you recover from that are much less toxic then the thief escaping (note: not recovering from you turning the fight around)?

[Flowki.7194]

9 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

and your tools that let you recover from that are much less toxic then the thief escaping (note: not recovering from you turning the fight around)?

There is so much fail logic in what youve just written I don't even know how to properly respond. I have to blow around 5 major defensives just to revover from the thief pressing 2 buttons. If its a 1v1 I have a chance to survive (not kill him, just survive the jump), then he can escape if he chooses. If he jumps in the middle of a group fight I simply die 9/10 times. But in your world people should not be able to survive thiefs "high skill" steal>immob>daze jump because thief "is squishy", as he mobilitys off into the sunset. Its like all thief mains took a masters in gaslighting, or something. 

Edited May 26 by Flowki.7194

[bq pd.2148]

1 minute ago, Flowki.7194 said:

There is so much fail logic in what youve just written I don't even know how to properly respond. I have to blow around 5 major defensives just to revover from the thief pressing 2 buttons. But in your world people should not be able to survive thiefs "high skill" steal>immob>daze jump because thief "is squishy", as he mobilitys off into the sunset. Its like all thief mains took a masters in gaslighting, or something. 

thank you for failing to answer a simple question.

[Flowki.7194]

29 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

thank you for failing to answer a simple question.

When the thief escapes multiple failed attempts, he can come back and +1. When I fail a "jump" I die. Does that answer it?.. Thief is low risk.

[bq pd.2148]

43 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

When the thief escapes multiple failed attempts, he can come back and +1. When I fail a "jump" I die. Does that answer it?.. Thief is low risk.

not at all.
i wanted you to consider all the crutches that keep all the other classes in the game and popular picks.

i know you like to play some random off meta things to satisfy your own subjective notion of skill, but in general all working builds do have some crutches that the builds countered by it (partially or fully) might find toxic.  be that too much projectile hate, too much cc, too much cleanse that you can ignore all condi application, too much invuln, too much stability, too high constant pressure, too high self heals and so on.
for you to recover from having lost 3/4 of your health against a target that is presumed to still be full hp with "barely" any resource used would indicate that you do have some crutches in that build that even allowed you to turn the table on that thief and made them run.  but i guess you going to tell me that it is pure skill?

personally i dont think this game is or should even be balanced or viewed as 1 vs 1. balance should be seen within the context of the mode it is in. yet most balance complains i see in this forum are specifically about class x vs class y without any context, not at all about the impact a class has in a given mode of the game.

Edited May 26 by bq pd.2148

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

3 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Would you ever admit that thief in gw2 is basically toxic to fight in any itteration?

They aren't toxic in every iteration. The iterations that aren't toxic die to classes using their own version of carry, and aren't played because the other versions of carry stifle them out of the game.

Quote

I don't expect free loot from any engagement, but I do expect engagements to end in one way: If they make bad choices they die. Thief is mechanically designed in such a way that it can recover from bad choices, over and over again.. even specter is at it with the bloated 3 melee disengage, to the point those bad choices are now called "playstyles".

Designing thief as a roamer that can't conquest points on its own tends to make them build as roamers that can quickly assist other players in winning their nodes or picking off weak enemies. Unfortunate, but you getting a kill isn't as important as the game's overarching balance. If you want the representation of thief skill to result in a kill if yours is greater, advocate for duelist builds that can fight with you on sides in exchange for their leaving power.

We tried that btw. It didn't go over well.

Quote

Thief is mechanically designed in such a way that it can recover from bad choices, over and over again..

Thieves run out of cooldowns too.

Quote

 I truly mean this, I cannot see the line between the overlap of a thiefs skill, and its toxic crutch mechanics. 

I don't think I can help with this, but there's a reason thief has existed in the way it has been for a decade.

Quote

If he jumps in the middle of a group fight I simply die 9/10 times. 

You're annoyed at thief for successfully playing the one way they can get anything done on the map.

Quote

When they TP to me through terrain into an instant immob>daze while spamming 3, where am I suppose to see the skill?

The skill was them rotating to that point or location in a way that they didn't waste their time fighting a losing node capture or interacting with a counter, and that you couldn't or didn't prepare for (via approaching out of line of sight or while you had low cooldowns).

If you look carefully, you can also see it in them surviving doing that.

If you want to duel them, they need a duelist build.

Quote

where was the counter play as 3/4 of my health got deleted

Depends. which build deleted 3/4ths of your health? 

 

Edited May 26 by Azure The Heartless.3261