Spears and Mesmers

[Mevelios.4809]

28 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

I found elementalist quite a lot sturdier than mesmer and I prefer mesmer over elementalist.

Different experiences; I found out timing your evade frames would go a long way towards surviving, even moreso than the elementalist trying to facetank everything. But that's my personal experience; disagreeing's fine too! 😉

[Akeera.7912]

Can Anet make rifle phantasm do damage in WvW, can't even put decimal in right place

Hopes for Spear being competitive crushed

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

2 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

Different experiences; I found out timing your evade frames would go a long way towards surviving, even moreso than the elementalist trying to facetank everything. But that's my personal experience; disagreeing's fine too! 😉

I mean nothing beats chrono tanking but that's not DPS, an elementalist can facetank a lot easier and playing the timing game only works if you are fighting one thing. Great in such content not so much when you are doing horde encounters.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

5 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

I found elementalist quite a lot sturdier than mesmer and I prefer mesmer over elementalist.

I've found the exact opposite. As a mesmer main, I can kill champs and elites solo, though usually with time. But it's because I'm untouchable and I have clones. I have lots of dodges, lots of distractions. It's why I've always said that Mesmers are one of the most powerful classes. Not because we're overpowered but because a properly played mesmer is impossible to kill.

I'd love to know how you play ele and what you think makes elementalist so much sturdier. Every time I play I usually end up overwhelmed and just dead.

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

34 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

I've found the exact opposite. As a mesmer main, I can kill champs and elites solo, though usually with time. But it's because I'm untouchable and I have clones. I have lots of dodges, lots of distractions. It's why I've always said that Mesmers are one of the most powerful classes. Not because we're overpowered but because a properly played mesmer is impossible to kill.

I'd love to know how you play ele and what you think makes elementalist so much sturdier. Every time I play I usually end up overwhelmed and just dead.

Well for starters you need to be swapping and dancing around utilizing the full swath of elements, and solo, the mesmer is on even footing, but when it comes to zerg events the mesmer is actually at a huge disadvantage. As far as solo power, if you go extremely careful, yes, anyone can do it, but clones do not always pull attention either, which is another huge issue with the mesmer since if you really want to survive, constantly creating clones or blade stocks is paramount to that survival.

Mirage has the easiest time surviving of the mesmer builds but is hampered by a weak endurance recovery. And I don't really ever consider a mesmer overpowered. Comparatively to survival, the elementalist just has a lot of toys for those oh crap moments that mesmer does not. Yes, a good player will learn how to work with the weaknesses, but the only thing that hampers an elementalist is its overwhelming and intimidating amount of buttons they get, not necessarily more complicated. But a lot of players just want to pile on damage.

In the end, I am comparing the two relatively squishiest, in this case the mesmer and elmentalist, as well as their tools and utilities. Clones it's a crap shoot if they will actually draw attention away when you need them to and are less reliable than random chance damage reduction. My other two prefered roles of Vindicator and Scrapper/Mechanist are just not fair comparisons at that point.

Now if you give me a rifle set up on my mesmer, I will never die outside of missing an instant kill area of effect, but going for open world damage versus open world damage, elementalist has the slight edge and advantage with tools and uses, it's just more intimidating to get into and needing to learn more of their abilities.

[Mevelios.4809]

51 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Now if you give me a rifle set up on my mesmer, I will never die outside of missing an instant kill area of effect, but going for open world damage versus open world damage, elementalist has the slight edge and advantage with tools and uses, it's just more intimidating to get into and needing to learn more of their abilities.

Could you provide factual examples? Like @ShadowKatt.6740 I get easily split open in two on an elementalist, whereas on mesmer I don't need any rifle, I just dodge and make use of whatever's on hand - offhand sword block, distortion, warden's projectile destruction, weapons' evade frames, utilities if I go after champions, and so on and so forth which I just can't match with my elementalist, except when running the mainhand sword. Well, to be fair I've been playing mesmer for years whereas I've been more seriously playing elementalist for a few months, so obviously there's quite a gap in my experience for both archetypes!

51 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Mirage has the easiest time surviving of the mesmer builds but is hampered by a weak endurance recovery.

With its easy access to vigor, I don't understand what you're referring to. Chrono might have the Well of precognition to instantly recover some endurance, but the new Dune cloak has an incredible effect over surviving! If you're blindly spending them to use ambush skills though, then indeed it's harder, hence why I referred to reactive play earlier -timing your dodges against enemy attacks- rather than going fully on the offense and end up as squishy as I feel playing ele (oh, in group content you're near unkillable, sure, but in open world against multiple targets it takes a bit more than that to survive, hence my question above).

Edited June 7 by Mevelios.4809

[Teknomancer.4895]

4 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

...clones do not always pull attention either, which is another huge issue with the mesmer since if you really want to survive, constantly creating clones or blade stocks is paramount to that survival...Clones it's a crap shoot if they will actually draw attention away when you need them to and are less reliable than random chance damage reduction.

Expecting clones to serve as effective distractions seems like a good way to get downed a lot. 🤷‍♂️

The only clone that ever reliably serves as a distraction is Decoy, and that for only as long as the stealth lasts. The rest I fully expect to be ignored by NPC's as well as by human opponents who are paying attention.

Dancing and porting all around your clones with the Mirage's mobility tricks feeds really well into the deceptive playstyle since the enemy can't easily lock on, but it doesn't work quite as well for other specs. For Core and Chrono, they're mainly shatter/trait effect delivery vehicles and little else; they don't exist at all for Virt of course.

[Jojo.6590]

We need mobility badly as so many classes have been getting more mobility skills/upgrades. However, I'm not going to hold my breath as they showed Necro getting the mobility ability I was hoping we would get.  Other wise use the Video below for reference as this is what I would want for Mesmer spear.

 

[draxynnic.3719]

8 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Mirage has the easiest time surviving of the mesmer builds but is hampered by a weak endurance recovery.

Mirage builds typically run endurance recovery sigils (and possibly the relic), and can also pick up mirrors or otherwise use their utility skills for additional mirage cloaks, while still also having Distortion and whatever defensive skills their weapons might have on top for anything else. Having less endurance recovered/second than vindicators does not stop them from still being quite survivable if played well. Keeping in mind that vindicator is considered one of the best, possibly the best solo melee build for good reason.

 

11 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

I mean nothing beats chrono tanking but that's not DPS, an elementalist can facetank a lot easier and playing the timing game only works if you are fighting one thing. Great in such content not so much when you are doing horde encounters.

You know you can put the same skills on a solo build while still running DPS stats and get a good balance between damage and survivability? We're not talking about raid/strike/fractal DPS builds here, and if we were, mesmer would absolutely win anyway because a lot of what makes elementalist survivable in open world is a bit redundant in instanced group content, while mesmer has more base health and the ability to Distortion through most dangers they can't otherwise avoid.

[Rezok.2709]

20 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Your original comment might not have mentioned staff, but you did bring it up later in an attempt to refute someone else's observation. And my observation stands: staff is no more of an AoE weapon than dagger or greatsword

You somehow keep ignoring what I said, though. I can repeat myself a third time - I said if we consider dagger and GS as AoE, then staff is also AoE. And as I already said, my whole point was that I'd consider none  of those weapons true AoE weapons. You take my statement completely out of context.

I was replying to someone saying "we have a power AoE weapon, GS. We don't have a condi AoE weapon". From that, I argued that if we are to consider GS AoE, then staff is equally an AoE weapon. I personally consider none of them AoE. But saying one of them is but the other isn't is what I was against.

Not sure why you want to misquote me continuously. 

It's ridiculous how far this discussion has gone just because I said I wanted a power based AoE weapon. We literally do not have a full on AoE power weapon, period. Yes, some weapons have a single AoE ability, or might cleave - that's how every single weapon in GW2 is designed. Just let me have my wish for a power AoE weapon.

So what if memser isn't designed towards being an AoE powerhouse like some classes, the whole point of GW2 is unorthodox classes and allowing all of them to do more or less all roles. Thief support exists, why shouldn't true mesmer AoE? Especially when half the game is designed around hitting huge waves of enemies.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Rezok.2709 said:

You somehow keep ignoring what I said, though. I can repeat myself a third time - I said if we consider dagger and GS as AoE, then staff is also AoE. And as I already said, my whole point was that I'd consider none  of those weapons true AoE weapons. You take my statement completely out of context.

I was replying to someone saying "we have a power AoE weapon, GS. We don't have a condi AoE weapon". From that, I argued that if we are to consider GS AoE, then staff is equally an AoE weapon. I personally consider none of them AoE. But saying one of them is but the other isn't is what I was against.

Not sure why you want to misquote me continuously. 

It's ridiculous how far this discussion has gone just because I said I wanted a power based AoE weapon. We literally do not have a full on AoE power weapon, period. Yes, some weapons have a single AoE ability, or might cleave - that's how every single weapon in GW2 is designed. Just let me have my wish for a power AoE weapon.

So what if memser isn't designed towards being an AoE powerhouse like some classes, the whole point of GW2 is unorthodox classes and allowing all of them to do more or less all roles. Thief support exists, why shouldn't true mesmer AoE? Especially when half the game is designed around hitting huge waves of enemies.

Except that even if we were to accept your contention that greatsword and dagger aren't more AoE than staff (which I don't), by that basis, we don't have a full on AoE condi weapon either. So asking for spear to be an AoE condi weapon is at least as valid.

My experience is that greatsword and dagger are both more AoE than staff, though. Piercing autos. Skill 2s are at least bouncing. AoE skill 3 on half the cooldown of Chaos Storm, and you can swap between them. Greatsword has an AoE phantasm, while dagger can be combined with a more AoE-oriented offhand like focus. Staff is weaker as an AoE weapon than either, and your best option to swap to for AoE condi is axe for melee cleave (but apart from said cleave, axe is still more designed for single targets). So I don't think that a hypothetical AoE weapon needs to be power rather than condi. 

[ShadowKatt.6740]

14 hours ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

Expecting clones to serve as effective distractions seems like a good way to get downed a lot. 🤷‍♂️

The only clone that ever reliably serves as a distraction is Decoy, and that for only as long as the stealth lasts. The rest I fully expect to be ignored by NPC's as well as by human opponents who are paying attention.

Dancing and porting all around your clones with the Mirage's mobility tricks feeds really well into the deceptive playstyle since the enemy can't easily lock on, but it doesn't work quite as well for other specs. For Core and Chrono, they're mainly shatter/trait effect delivery vehicles and little else; they don't exist at all for Virt of course.

Not just Decoy. Our secret weapon is any skill that forces the enemy  to retarget. Phase Retreat does it, Prestige doesnit, or any stealth skill for that matter. Clones on their own are not effective distractions, you're right, but paired with screwing with enemy targetting they shouldn't be underestimated.

[Teknomancer.4895]

True, but I was specifically responding to the idea of clones "drawing attention away" from you which they just aren't very good at against any but the trashiest of trash mobs. Breaking targeting, stealth etc will certainly remove attention from you at least for a second or two, but a clone doesn't inherently draw attention to itself, which seemed to be the idea I was replying to.

The only clone that can do both at the same time is Decoy, because it literally appears at the exact spot you were standing. Phantasmal Defender draws attention to itself but it isn't a clone, so it doesn't count.

I think we're probably talking about two sides of the same coin tbh. 🙂

[Rezok.2709]

On 6/8/2024 at 12:13 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

we don't have a full on AoE condi weapon either. So asking for spear to be an AoE condi weapon is at least as valid.

Dude, are you just looking to argue for the sake of arguing? I literally never said it was an invalid opinion to hope for a condi AoE weapon. I just said I wanted a power AoE weapon, lol. Stop trying to argue as if I'm not allowed that opinion. I think that's what Mesmer needs the most right now, nothing about that means I invalidate any wish for something else.

On 6/8/2024 at 12:13 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

My experience is that greatsword and dagger are both more AoE than staff, though.

And from the rest of your comment, clearly we just have different definitions of AoE. You clearly think a piercing projectile or a few bounces is enough to be AoE. I don't. There is literally no reason to discuss then. We are talking from completely different premises.

By AoE I mean, you know... Area of effect. Ground target effects or big whirling attack hitting all around you makes an "area of effect". Bounce by very definition isn't AoE.

Just because something hits more than one target doesn't make it AoE. Just because it bounces doesn't make it AoE. If it did, then every single weapon in GW2 is AoE, and the term loses all meaning. If you define it as such, then go ahead. That's fine, but I've already made it very clear what I mean by AoE multiple times, so if you continue to argue based on your own definition, ignoring what I mean, then you are just actively trying to argue because you want to argue. There is no point in going back and forth here if you insist on ignoring what I mean by AoE.

I've said what I wished for is not just a weapon with some bounces or projectile piercing, but real AoE. You're basically just arguing about my definition of AoE, which is completely pointless.

At this point you're just arguing semantics.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Rezok.2709 said:

Dude, are you just looking to argue for the sake of arguing? I literally never said it was an invalid opinion to hope for a condi AoE weapon. I just said I wanted a power AoE weapon, lol. Stop trying to argue as if I'm not allowed that opinion. I think that's what Mesmer needs the most right now, nothing about that means I invalidate any wish for something else.

You can have whatever opinion you like. Others have the right to express their own opinions. When you start justifying it as being better than contrary opinions with claims that one set of weapons is less bad at AoE than another, people who have come to a different conclusion have the right to contest that justification with their own observations.

1 hour ago, Rezok.2709 said:

And from the rest of your comment, clearly we just have different definitions of AoE. You clearly think a piercing projectile or a few bounces is enough to be AoE. I don't. There is literally no reason to discuss then. We are talking from completely different premises.

By AoE I mean, you know... Area of effect. Ground target effects or big whirling attack hitting all around you makes an "area of effect". Bounce by very definition isn't AoE.

Then apply the same standard to staff. Bouncing attack - not an AoE. Phase retreat - not an AoE. Phantasmal warlock - not an AoE. Chaos armour - 240 radius with a little bit of confusion in a tight radius on a 20s cooldown, and that little bit of confusion isn't really the point of the skill. Chaos storm - does a little bit of damage, and some confusion and torment if you roll those conditions, but on a 25s base cooldown and also bringing daze and buffs that potentially include aegis, many people consider that the damage isn't really the point of that skill either.

By your criteria, Mind Stab with a 10s cooldown and 1.8 coefficient alone makes greatsword a less bad AoE weapon than staff. Phantasmal Berserker is based on Whirlwind Attack, a "big whirling attack hitting all around you" - we don't know the exact radius of that, but I can tell you that it's larger than the narrow beam of Phantasmal Warlock, and has a higher target cap. Similarly, by your criteria Unstable Bladestorm on its own makes dagger more AoE than staff.

I'd also contest your claims regarding bouncing or piercing attacks versus what you call "real AoE". Keep in mind that most of the type of skills you're talking about still have target limits. Most autoattacks only hit 3 targets, so a piercing attack with a reasonably wide hitbox is often easier to get those 3 targets than an elementalist's Fireball, since the latter will only get hit the target cap if they're tightly clumped. A bouncing attack with four bounces can hit as many targets as a "real AoE", but over a wider area (although, to be fair, many bouncing skills are balanced on the basis of getting the skill to bounce back onto the original target).

While I've said a couple of times that mesmer still has less AoE capability than many other professions, the claim that staff is a better AoE weapon than the power options just doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

One could make the observation that when you really want AoE you're generally looking to clear out a lot of relatively weak opponents, and so power damage that kills now is more valuable than conditions that might not have time to ramp. But that's not the argument you're making.

[Rezok.2709]

On 6/10/2024 at 12:28 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Then apply the same standard to staff.

Dude, I literally did. I've mentioned multiple times by now, that I don't consider staff AoE. You literally just make up random stuff I didn't say so that you can argue. 

I said if you consider GS an AoE weapon, then staff is too - my whole point is that none of them are. My original objection was to considering GS an AoE but not staff. As in, they are pretty equal in their AoE capabilities.

On 6/10/2024 at 12:28 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

the claim that staff is a better AoE weapon than the power options just doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

It's hilarious how long of a comment you just wrote against this "claim", because I think I've mentioned like, four times by now, that I never made that claim. You are literally making up stuff yourself, pretending I said it, then argue against it.

Can you please stop putting a bunch of words in my mouth? It's getting tiresome. As I already called you out for, you clearly just argue for the sake of arguing. You just like trying to "win the discussion" and don't actually seem to care for the quality of the discussion. 

But yes, you win the discussion. You know, the discussion where you just make up random claims and pretend I said it.  Good boy, mommy's proud.

[Levetty.1279]

Looks like Mesmer is being revealed last again. Fed up of being treated as an after thought.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Rezok.2709 said:

Dude, I literally did. I've mentioned multiple times by now, that I don't consider staff AoE. You literally just make up random stuff I didn't say so that you can argue. 

I said if you consider GS an AoE weapon, then staff is too - my whole point is that none of them are. My original objection was to considering GS an AoE but not staff. As in, they are pretty equal in their AoE capabilities.

That's the thing - AoE capability isn't something that you either have or you don't. Greatsword and dagger aren't as good at AoE as some of the options on other professions. However, that can be true, while still being a lot better than staff. And as I demonstrated, it is.

Your claim that "if you consider GS an AoE weapon, then staff is too" therefore falls down. Greatsword and dagger are both more AoE than staff is.

[Curunen.8729]

At least it doesn't seem like we're getting the precise aiming at distance one - thank god that seems to be warrior instead.

But we could still get engi shortbow RTS ground targeting bullkitten. xD

[draxynnic.3719]

35 minutes ago, Curunen.8729 said:

At least it doesn't seem like we're getting the precise aiming at distance one - thank god that seems to be warrior instead.

But we could still get engi shortbow RTS ground targeting bullkitten. xD

I'm not sure that's actually it. The only 'precise aiming' I'm seeing in warrior spear is in the sense that if you throw it at the right target you might hit more targets with the shrapnel. The warrior mechanic seems to be "the closer you are to the target, the more effective you are", which doesn't really feel like a precision-based mechanic to me.

It might be the 'reminiscent of an old fan favourite' one.

We can mark off:

A new autoattack mechanic (Ranger)

Multiple ways to reset cooldown (Necromancer)

Reimagining a GW1 mechanic (Thief)

We can possibly mark off:

Melee spear that rewards positioning (Guardian)

Debilitating and new unique effect (Engineer)

Old fan favourite (Warrior)

I could see guardian being the new spin on an old skill type with the symbol, although I'm not convinced myself it's THAT different to the theory behind the pistol symbol.

I'm pretty sure "precise aiming at range" is still in play, and that we'll know it when we see it.

Edited June 13 by draxynnic.3719

[Levetty.1279]

We are never going to get a 2H melee brawler weapon.

Edited June 13 by Levetty.1279

[Mevelios.4809]

48 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I'm pretty sure "precise aiming at range" is still in play, and that we'll know it when we see it.

That one I'm putting a coin on elementalist. Their trailer had a character throwing a spear at range blowing up into a fire AoE, I'm expecting that boring & easy to anticipate thing. I'm hoping for it to at least be a hybrid tool like the hammer (something offering air dagger's Ride the lightning to jump into melee & fire staff Burning retreat so you have your options in combat) rather than another fully ranged toy reminiscent of scepter gameplay, when nearly everything aside from the sword is already ranged (not counting in the short dagger distance or hybrid hammer). A melee spear to challenge sword+warhorn on a weaver or catalyst (or even tempest because of the short-ranged overloads) could've been so satisfying, but I'm not keeping my hopes up; wait&see, maybe there'll be a surprise! I mean, there are 8 points within the article, for 9 classes.

Edited June 13 by Mevelios.4809

[Trejgon.9367]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

It might be the 'reminiscent of an old fan favourite' one.

AA reuses name of one of paragon spear skills, so it's either that, or the thieves chains (alot of people liked chain attacks on assasins in gw1)

[Curunen.8729]

8 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I'm not sure that's actually it. The only 'precise aiming' I'm seeing in warrior spear is in the sense that if you throw it at the right target you might hit more targets with the shrapnel. The warrior mechanic seems to be "the closer you are to the target, the more effective you are", which doesn't really feel like a precision-based mechanic to me.

It might be the 'reminiscent of an old fan favourite' one.

We can mark off:

A new autoattack mechanic (Ranger)

Multiple ways to reset cooldown (Necromancer)

Reimagining a GW1 mechanic (Thief)

We can possibly mark off:

Melee spear that rewards positioning (Guardian)

Debilitating and new unique effect (Engineer)

Old fan favourite (Warrior)

I could see guardian being the new spin on an old skill type with the symbol, although I'm not convinced myself it's THAT different to the theory behind the pistol symbol.

I'm pretty sure "precise aiming at range" is still in play, and that we'll know it when we see it.

Good points, I just hope with all the ranged spear throwing shown so far, that mesmer has a higher chance of getting a melee spear with mobility, agility in combat and some damage.

As I don't care for the housing system, it's the first time if the weapon is meh that I'm a bit on the fence of the expansion until it goes on a sale, especially as I don't play much anymore. Rifle still is a major disappointment from a mirage perspective.

[draxynnic.3719]

10 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

That one I'm putting a coin on elementalist. Their trailer had a character throwing a spear at range blowing up into a fire AoE, I'm expecting that boring & easy to anticipate thing. I'm hoping for it to at least be a hybrid tool like the hammer (something offering air dagger's Ride the lightning to jump into melee & fire staff Burning retreat so you have your options in combat) rather than another fully ranged toy reminiscent of scepter gameplay, when nearly everything aside from the sword is already ranged (not counting in the short dagger distance or hybrid hammer). A melee spear to challenge sword+warhorn on a weaver or catalyst (or even tempest because of the short-ranged overloads) could've been so satisfying, but I'm not keeping my hopes up; wait&see, maybe there'll be a surprise! I mean, there are 8 points within the article, for 9 classes.

This isn't really the subforum for it, but dagger is essentially "melee with reach", and hammer is effectively melee for all intents and purposes - the air and fire attacks being 600 range and having such a low projectile speed that you can just about keep up with them if you're running forward basically just make them "you're not completely helpless if the enemy is outside of melee range" rather than a really viable range option.

8 hours ago, Trejgon.9367 said:

AA reuses name of one of paragon spear skills, so it's either that, or the thieves chains (alot of people liked chain attacks on assasins in gw1)

I think the thief chains are the reimagining of a GW1 mechanic.