[Silent Scope] This trait needs to go...no compromises...it's awful awful design

[Terrorhuz.4695]

On 6/9/2024 at 12:39 AM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Silent scope got whittled down to one second and its still causing consternation 😫

Just admit yall don't like retargeting💀 it was never the stealth was it, its the tab button check just be honest with us

Let's act like the problem comes from stealth on dodge and not from giving this tool to the one class to THE ONE CLASS that procs 16 traits from doing so.
Dodge, enter stealth + 3s superspeed + cleanse + small heal + AoE blind + 2 initiative and kitten knows what else
It would be as dumb like, IDK, giving a daze on dodge, on a class that procs 16 traits from daze. Who tf would do that?

Edited June 12 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Might be a hot take but...

All the AoE ground puke (DH traps, necro wells, specter wells, etc. etc.) and people still can't handle a stealth on dodge.  

Look, when you see BP, any smoke field, or a DE with silent scope, and they go invis...just kite.  It's been this way from the beginning of the game where it was far more important because if you didn't move you got 10k backstabbed.  

There's little room for complaint now when there are so many active defenses, and still some passives around like Guards aegis procs.  An invisible thief (or anything) can't contest a node and can't actually attack you without revealing--have some awareness. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

2 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Let's act like the problem comes from dodge on stealth and not from giving this tool to the one class to THE ONE CLASS that procs 16 traits from doing so.
Dodge, enter stealth + 3s superspeed + cleanse + small heal + AoE blind + 2 initiative and kitten knows what else

They did this because y'all didn't like not seeing the thieves and they have a traitline AND mechanics built around you all not seeing them. It used to slowly restore these things based on camping stealth but that was inappropriate. 💀

This is also, ironically, exactly the same thing OP is asking for, albeit I'm sure they're joking.

Thieves should be rewarded for using their mechanic like everyone else.

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It would be as dumb like, IDK, giving a daze on dodge, on a class that procs 16 traits from daze. Who tf would do that?

Probably the same kind of people who would ship a trait that lets you dodge while stunned on a class that can already do that, take several years to realize that's a bad mechanic, then reintroduce it as a different trait several years later.

While a class that requires you to hit things with big telegraphs to activate half its traits exists.

Idunno, all I'm saying is that matchups existing that you struggle with by picking a specific class or build seems to be the balance vision, and while I'm familiar with the frustration, I've also been on the receiving end and had players not be able to tell me what I should be looking for to win or stall matchups on certain class specs so- 🤷‍♀️

Mes main  Love  tolerate you tho. I would like the game healthily balanced too. 

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Might be a hot take but...

All the AoE ground puke (DH traps, necro wells, specter wells, etc. etc.) and people still can't handle a stealth on dodge.  

Look, when you see BP, any smoke field, or a DE with silent scope, and they go invis...just kite.  It's been this way from the beginning of the game where it was far more important because if you didn't move you got 10k backstabbed.  

There's little room for complaint now when there are so many active defenses, and still some passives around like Guards aegis procs.  An invisible thief (or anything) can't contest a node and can't actually attack you without revealing--have some awareness. 

Lucid but they'll continue, you know how this goes.

12 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Yeah cool I can't stand on the point either when the Deadeye's around or he'll eat my face, lol
The DE can absolutely force the neutralize out of me, and then we're both afk at a pillar, and the losing move is always mine.

You're winning this engagement. A DE forcing a point to remain neutral and having to come step on the point to revert it is not only wasting their time but crippling their team for a pointless 1v1 they will instantly lose the moment anyone respawns and checks home. 

If you have any projectile hate at all (which you should if you're standing on a point alone) you win even harder.

Not that I'm framing thief as weak, it takes advantage of people that don't do this or people that can't do this by design.

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The answer's right there?

I firmly believe that ranged builds with any significant uptime on stealth are inherently unbalanceable, and that's been absolutely true in every MMO to have pvp, but if it's going to exist, it has to have massive weaknesses.

Note the bolded. Do you understand what I mean by "It's people upset at how thief plays"? 

That line of thought you're making is specifically what I am asserting. Nobody actually wants the interaction to exist as is, but are keeping that conclusion at arms length through a pattern of nerf requests that don't change anything.  Just be up front about what you want.

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That's not the case for Deadeye.

Also projectile hate and it not being able to stand on a point to contest itself are weaknesses, but digression.

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The replacement in this situation is literally that you don't have all of that at once, lol
It's significant nerfs, either by removing one of those areas or absolutely demolishing number tuning.

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That isn't removing an upsetting playstyle, you'd still be able to play the exact same way, you'd still have the same niche and many of the strengths. 

Okay. which area can you remove that maintains the playstyle? Can you elaborate on that? 

Edited June 9 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[aymnad.9023]

Without this trait accessing dj is a pain which is one of the reasons this weapon is not seen outside of deadeye 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 minute ago, aymnad.9023 said:

Without this trait accessing dj is a pain which is one of the reasons this weapon is not seen outside of deadeye 

shh, don't post spoilers  💀

[Terrorhuz.4695]

26 minutes ago, aymnad.9023 said:

Without this trait accessing dj is a pain which is one of the reasons this weapon is not seen outside of deadeye 

And that is something I can definitely agree with, and understand. let's just not act like "HURR DURR IT'S JUST 1S REPOSITION", it's really not.

[Shagie.7612]

26 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

You're winning this engagement. A DE forcing a point to remain neutral and having to come step on the point to revert it is not only wasting their time but crippling their team for a pointless 1v1 they will instantly lose the moment anyone respawns and checks home. 

In what way? If I leave pillar, I die. If I stop side noding, because I probably shouldn't be doing so in the first place, he follows me around and hard farms me into the dirt and I never leave spawn again and my team is perma 4v5, because that's what DE does to most of the cast.
It's also more mobile than me so y'know, it's far more capable of leaving said node if someone shows up to +1 it. If I tried to do the same thing I'd instantly die AND I can't escape it, because I'm not something that's nearly impossible to punish once they're beyond a modicum of skill.

27 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

If you have any projectile hate at all (which you should if you're standing on a point alone) you win even harder.

No, not really. Because I lose to sword/dagger in melee fights, too. Even when I dodge more of his stuff and land infinitely more of mine.

26 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Also projectile hate and it not being able to stand on a point to contest itself are weaknesses, but digression.

Projectile hate hurts all ranged specs. I have the same exact weaknesses and little to no advantages over rifle Deadeye.

27 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Okay. which area can you remove that maintains the playstyle? Can you elaborate on that? 

You could make it less mobile by applying the 8000000th nerf to thief mobility so melee can eventually catch it, you could reduce how often it can take advantage of SA traits so that it's not getting tons of initiative, condi removal, healing, superspeed and access to DJ/good damage, you could make the class actually afraid of conditions again, you could make it afraid of ranged damage, you could make it do less damage unless they trait/gear absurdly hard for it like plenty of other weak ranged builds have to do.

There's plenty of things you could do to actually adjust it in a way that isn't just removing it entirely, but you and every other thief player exist in a world where thief is actually perpetually terrible (but it's totally that nobody knows how to play the game) and any criticism of the class is just whining because annoying.

[Myror.7521]

@arazoth.7290 ayo i want to say don't understand me wrong. I am not frustrated cause i can not win against vindicator (it counters warr by default so im fine with it). I am only frustrated when one vindicator can handle 1vX sometimes while beeing meant to be a roaming class. Which is the reason why i loose most matches the moment the vindi is knowing what he is doing ^^. 

Sooo im letz say frustrated cause 1 class killin my whole Team and since its the atm hardest counter to me (aside d/p thiefs) i can't Help my Team eather way ^^its kinda unfun xd

Edited June 9 by Myror.7521

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

28 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

You could make it less mobile by applying the 8000000th nerf to thief mobility so melee can eventually catch it, you could reduce how often it can take advantage of SA traits so that it's not getting tons of initiative, condi removal, healing, superspeed and access to DJ/good damage, you could make the class actually afraid of conditions again, you could make it afraid of ranged damage, you could make it do less damage unless they trait/gear absurdly hard for it like plenty of other weak ranged builds have to do.

There's plenty of things you could do to actually adjust it in a way that isn't just removing it entirely, but you and every other thief player exist in a world where thief is actually perpetually terrible (but it's totally that nobody knows how to play the game) and any criticism of the class is just whining because annoying.

Okay. Let's hope that the next time anything in the above field happens it finally qualms the thief whine.

cause this:

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8000000th nerf to thief mobility

is exhausting. 

Edited June 9 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Myror.7521 said:

@arazoth.7290 ayo i want to say don't understand me wrong. I am not frustrated cause i can not win against vindicator (it counters warr by default so im fine with it). I am only frustrated when one vindicator can handle 1vX sometimes while beeing meant to be a roaming class. Which is the reason why i loose most matches the moment the vindi is knowing what he is doing ^^. 

Sooo im letz say frustrated cause 1 class killin my whole Team and since its the atm hardest counter to me (aside d/p thiefs) i can't Help my Team eather way ^^its kinda unfun xd

okee no problem.

And I am convinced this isn't a problem about vindicator you mentioned now.

It's more about facing higher rated/more skilled players in general for every class with a rng matchmaking team with too much rating difference.

So yes, now an example of me recently in unranked. I queued solo because didn't want to take too seriously and I 1v3'd players on node, they died under 10 seconds at same time (new record).     Now if I would face 1v1 any class same or higher skill lvl it takes too much time, unless 1 of us just gets too cocky bc reasons. 

 

Now another fun note about players, I got multiple PM's last days during my ranked matches for core revenant being too strong to fight against apparantly. I am still waiting for someone to make a thread about that, because I have some gifs in mind to post

 

[Terrorhuz.4695]

3 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

then reintroduce it as a different trait several years late

While that is true, can you explain to me why I see these mechanics (Desert Distortion, Signet of Illusions, Blurred Inscriptions) and say they need to go, then you see those toxic mechanics on your class and claim they need to stay? Because I'm the n1 hater of those mechanics, I straight up refuse to play any of them even if it means to lose.

Edited June 9 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Myror.7521]

@arazoth.7290 well it is a Problem by vindi cause it needs way too long to get killed for beeing basicly a plus one class (Mobility and Dmg wise). 

It can basicly well played fill 2 diff roles. Thats why I (and also other guys saying its "OP").

Sooo my mindset is indeed not "I can not kill it its OP". I see the whole kind of thing and it just simply is atm good everywhere ..... heck its even not Bad in mid fights which is stupid ...... name me one thing that can 1v1/plus one and semi good mid fighting at the same build in same Match. 

Kinda think you now know why i call it OP now xp

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

While that is true, can you explain to me why I see these mechanics (Desert Distortion, Signet of Illusions, Blurred Inscriptions) and say they need to go, then you see those toxic mechanics on your class and claim they need to stay? Because I'm the n1 hater of those mechanics, I straight up refuse to play any of them even if it means to lose.

Good question, but I don't accept your framing. Context matters. Its not defending toxic mechanics (although I'll accept it getting called that), its making sure people are moderate with the suggestions they make before they waste their (and my, to a lesser extent) time. Im tired of ("thief nerf?") (Gets nerf) ("thief nerf?") for infinity because people always assume the current thief permutation is the only one that's going to harass you from 900-1200 away, run when its low, then find you when you're out of cds and take you off the map. They all do that.  That's what they do. 

First off, I'm fine with mechanics existing in a state where they do something wretchedly strong for a short period of time.  For example.  I don't have a problem with blurred Inscriptions.  I don't like the mechanic, but I understand that once you start hitting one second distortions for your utilities, you're kind of out of room for balancing, because you need to have a shred of parity between the game modes when it comes to boons or mechanics that enable the class. I like berserker because *through gritted teeth* its supposed to be like that too.

 

when it comes to silent scope specifically, @aymnad.9023 is correct. Without it, you don't just lose access to a reposition, you lose a chunk of access to your main burst damaging skill. Its annoying to deal with, but considering that the weapon is so initiative hungry pressing 2 over and over is the predominant damage avenue, I'm going to have reservations about suggestions to remove it outright (especially when the stealth it provides is negligible)

Same thing for suggestions that butcher shadow arts or whatever. Stealth is the defensive and offensive engine for multiple thief builds, and balancing direction needs to account for that. 

I don't play rifle DE btw. I'm far worse. I play axe DD.  But balancing suggestions should make sure the class works afterward, with some condideration given to how annoying the class is in the context of conquest (This is why I don't mutter about virtuoso despite it being ":@" levels of annoy.)

 

Edited June 9 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Myror.7521 said:

@arazoth.7290 well it is a Problem by vindi cause it needs way too long to get killed for beeing basicly a plus one class (Mobility and Dmg wise). 

It can basicly well played fill 2 diff roles. Thats why I (and also other guys saying its "OP").

Sooo my mindset is indeed not "I can not kill it its OP". I see the whole kind of thing and it just simply is atm good everywhere ..... heck its even not Bad in mid fights which is stupid ...... name me one thing that can 1v1/plus one and semi good mid fighting at the same build in same Match. 

Kinda think you now know why i call it OP now xp

By that logic thief as roamer is OP too because it takes too long to catch a good one to waste time on it.

We have disengage tools too but same logic, if you can get caught in these glassy build, you don't have much passive defensive to outsustain

 

1 hour ago, Myror.7521 said:

@arazoth.7290  name me one thing that can 1v1/plus one and semi good mid fighting at the same build in same Match. 

 

Every build I have on revenant can do that for Herald, Vindi and core. Only Renegade not because kitten Renegade 

[Flowki.7194]

No thief main has ever admited the class is low risk, its as if they have no concept of effective hp, which in thiefs case is nion infinate <at your mistakes only>

 

It isn't even about winning or losing games, no matter what other class/spec I play, every single possible thief spec is obnoxious af to fight. I see one at round start, and 1/3 of the fun is instantly drained from the game, 2/3 if they also have a DH.

 

What it basically comes down to is the thief can continually +1, yet continaully escape +1, and even with that.. thieves act all confused as to why everybody hates the class. Thieves actually think they are on the riskiest spec/s in the game.. its hilariously ironic that something like condi mech is actually 10x more risky to play.

Edited June 10 by Flowki.7194

[Kyraios.8954]

41 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

No thief main has ever admited the class is low risk, its as if they have no concept of effective hp, which in thiefs case is nion infinate <at your mistakes only>

 

It isn't even about winning or losing games, no matter what other class/spec I play, every single possible thief spec is obnoxious af to fight. I see one at round start, and 1/3 of the fun is instantly drained from the game, 2/3 if they also have a DH.

 

What it basically comes down to is the thief can continually +1, yet continaully escape +1, and even with that.. thieves act all confused as to why everybody hates the class. Thieves actually think they are on the riskiest spec/s in the game.. its hilariously ironic that something like condi mech is actually 10x more risky to play.

They should add a cool down on sword 2 and add an internal cool down of at least 10 seconds on all forms of stealth after exiting stealth(stealth cd should apply to every stealth class). 

 

That or remove the Daze+ blind spam 

Edited June 10 by Kyraios.8954

[Myror.7521]

@arazoth.7290 the diff is still all the other builds you describe here are at least:

Not able to stay on the point in a fight to be able to capture it

or

Got not enough high burst dmg to call themselfes a good plus one/roaming class

This is the diff between them all and vindicator ^^

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Myror.7521 said:

@arazoth.7290 the diff is still all the other builds you describe here are at least:

Not able to stay on the point in a fight to be able to capture it

or

Got not enough high burst dmg to call themselfes a good plus one/roaming class

This is the diff between them all and vindicator ^^

Not everything is just straight up damage and other tools providing enough. The vindi build you talk about can come in do pressure in +1, but can't save teammate because more selfish, it's mostly just dps. 

Also vindi can't stay long enough on point even against other power builds. If they can it's taking more tanky/less damage build, inferior to the real duelist and inferior to better teamfight builds. If you win staying on node mostly in glassier build, you outskilled most openents. Because normally you have to retreat for small recovery

Maybe in duo vindis at higher skill levels rolling over others. I stand by it that's it more abusing duo queue problem killing less skilled people for snowballing games. And there atm a lot less of them un duos atm m, solo queue they're not enough a threat even if skilled.

 

I am playing rather my core rev build in ranked because more impactfull solo queues then that. So Duo Queues are the problem in ranked. If I see solo queue another high ranked player np, but duo it suddenly becomes a lot harder/sometimes impossible to win.

If duo queue wasn't the problem you would see a lot more high rated ones solo queue if it didn't matter that much

 

[Voodoo.3201]

20 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Let's act like the problem comes from dodge on stealth and not from giving this tool to the one class to THE ONE CLASS that procs 16 traits from doing so.
Dodge, enter stealth + 3s superspeed + cleanse + small heal + AoE blind + 2 initiative and kitten knows what else
It would be as dumb like, IDK, giving a daze on dodge, on a class that procs 16 traits from daze. Who tf would do that?

The superspeed is actually 3/4th of a second in PvP

[Terrorhuz.4695]

1 minute ago, Voodoo.3201 said:

The superspeed is actually 3/4th of a second in PvP

Boi let me tell you

[Voodoo.3201]

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Boi let me tell you

Thats a relic investment making u hard stuck on it 🤷‍♂️

[Terrorhuz.4695]

17 minutes ago, Voodoo.3201 said:

Thats a relic investment making u hard stuck on it 🤷‍♂️

> OH NO I'M SO STUCK AND TERRIFIED I HAVE 3S SUPERSPEED EVERY TIME DODGE I'M SO TERRIFIED THIS GAME SUCKS!

said by nobody ever

[Flowki.7194]

12 hours ago, Kyraios.8954 said:

They should add a cool down on sword 2 and add an internal cool down of at least 10 seconds on all forms of stealth after exiting stealth(stealth cd should apply to every stealth class). 

 

That or remove the Daze+ blind spam 

If utility slots cost initiative, DD/DE would be so much healthier to fight, as they would be punished for stupid aggression with no initiative to TP/stealth out. I also think warrior needs some form of resource manedgement, SPB/zerker are brainded defensive rotations leaving very few windows of attack. The thing with thief, SPB, and DH, those players tend to have bad dodge compared to something like a decent power necro (beleive that or not), becuase all they really do is weave their dodge inbetween blocks/evades/blinds/daze etc as a gap filler. That leads to an overly effective playstyle while they are actually not that good at reading the game and truly counterplaying you. It was only a few days ago a plat SPB tried to cc me 3 times in a row while I had stab. That happens often when dueling SPBs prior teather pull etc, they are so auto piolit in their overly effective defensive rotation <prior nuke> they don't even boon check.. and are still likely to win the duel. In thiefs case, they just leave, both classes need overhauled for some real risk/punishment.

 

It isn't that I am some amazing player, but I certainly don't expect to have mechanics of my chosen spec hold my hand, and not punish me for playing like a bronze in those moments <insert thief jumping into 1v2 and escaping> <insert SPBs spamming bot-rotations while oponent is stab stacked>

Edited June 10 by Flowki.7194