Apparently unpopular opinion: 100CM is one of the best pieces of PVE content released

[Tibuss.4527]

35 minutes ago, TexZero.7910 said:

What's buggy about this super not bugged instance ?

Proceedes immeadiately to deny existence of said bug....
Okay cheif.

Everything is technically playable until the servers of offline. Just because you can play it, doesn't make it good or free of bugs or otherwise a lackluster experience.

Even if the gluttony thing is a bug, it's not something that impacts the enjoyment of the fractal in any way. I'd argue it makes the fractal way better, and of course that's subjective, but no one can seriously argue that killing the rifts with gluttony is ruining the fractal.
That would be comparable to people complaining that you can stand in front of the rock during fire phase in Sunqua Peak as opposed to standing behind it to survive the explosion, which obviously is also a bug, but it doesn't make anything worse.

[TexZero.7910]

5 minutes ago, Tibuss.4527 said:

Even if the gluttony thing is a bug, it's not something that impacts the enjoyment of the fractal in any way. I'd argue it makes the fractal way better, and of course that's subjective, but no one can seriously argue that killing the rifts with gluttony is ruining the fractal.
That would be comparable to people complaining that you can stand in front of the rock during fire phase in Sunqua Peak as opposed to standing behind it to survive the explosion, which obviously is also a bug, but it doesn't make anything worse.

Both are bad and need to be fixed.
They actively are a deteriment to good healthy encounter design and the fact that you use them as a crutch doesn't change this.

[Xentera.4560]

I had to read through the OP a couple of times to decide if he was actually serious or just trolling.

The bottom line is: both LT and LTCM are some of the worst, most poorly designed, most untested instanced content that anet have released since I started playing (GW1 prophecies).

[Tibuss.4527]

On 6/19/2024 at 3:11 PM, TexZero.7910 said:

Both are bad and need to be fixed.
They actively are a deteriment to good healthy encounter design and the fact that you use them as a crutch doesn't change this.

Let's just agree to disagree on the fact that both need fixing, I think both can stay as they are.
I still don't seen how they are a detriment to the encounter in any way, not like letting us do the portals like we do in the SotO story 100 times is gonna be "healthier" encounter design.

[Tibuss.4527]

On 6/19/2024 at 8:51 PM, Xentera.4560 said:

I had to read through the OP a couple of times to decide if he was actually serious or just trolling.

The bottom line is: both LT and LTCM are some of the worst, most poorly designed, most untested instanced content that anet have released since I started playing (GW1 prophecies).

I am very much serious, and I would like for you to elaborate what makes it bad, cause I am legitimately curious.

[SidewayS.3789]

This fractal it's so kitten that even my CM group just said "nah let's skip this kitten". This is the worse fractal ever done by Anet. Actually this is not a fractal, but a strike disguised as a fractal. But it's no wonder why, the team who did Nightmare+Shattered+Sunqua Peak are looooong gone from Anet.

[zeyeti.8347]

the cm being hard is ok , but the nm mode (i said it was ok on another post but after multiple talk i can understand why ppl find it too hard) is way too hard compared to regular t4 , i don't struggle personnaly , but if i have to compare it to all other nm t4 (even kannaxai) it is way harder , the boss is bulletproof sponge damage , if you don't have average dps it take ages to kill , the mark on the ground deal damage before appearing (achiev kind of difficult to do) and the shockwave seems dysynchronize from the server , every one gets hit by it way before the animation is on us.

same problem as kannaxai at release : it's a strike mission , not a fractal. I wish they design good bosses like Sunqa Peak Ai bossfight , this one is super fun , not too long and intense, the animation are peek gorgeous too , a cm legendary of this one would be greatly appreciated i think.

hope the raid wing from expac is not gonna be designed on the latest release.

[Tibuss.4527]

3 hours ago, SidewayS.3789 said:

This fractal it's so kitten that even my CM group just said "nah let's skip this kitten". This is the worse fractal ever done by Anet. Actually this is not a fractal, but a strike disguised as a fractal. But it's no wonder why, the team who did Nightmare+Shattered+Sunqua Peak are looooong gone from Anet.

Your fractal CM static or a pug group? Skipping the newest fractal CM has been a staple of the LFG ever since ever, same thing happened for Silent Surf and Ai.
What makes this a strike?

[Tibuss.4527]

1 hour ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

the cm being hard is ok , but the nm mode (i said it was ok on another post but after multiple talk i can understand why ppl find it too hard) is way too hard compared to regular t4 , i don't struggle personnaly , but if i have to compare it to all other nm t4 (even kannaxai) it is way harder , the boss is bulletproof sponge damage , if you don't have average dps it take ages to kill , the mark on the ground deal damage before appearing (achiev kind of difficult to do) and the shockwave seems dysynchronize from the server , every one gets hit by it way before the animation is on us.

I haven't done the NM ever since the CM released, but before it did it didn't feel too spongy on NM to me, but I was running exclusively with groups that clear CMs no problem. I can see how it might have too much health for "normal" T4 groups, agreed.

The cracks can be avoided thankfully, since they always spawn relative to Eparchs' position and the way he is facing. They do tick damage quite early, that is true.

Shockwave hitbox is also earlier than the visuals, at least its consistent though (still needs to be adjusted).

[Player.2475]

1 month since it got released and almost every group is still skipping both the CM and NM version. Not just average daily T4 runs but also CM groups exclude even the NM version. I don't think reducing the boss health even by 50% is going to make most people enjoy this fight. The fact that CM is possible only with exploits says all you need to know.

[SidewayS.3789]

2 hours ago, Tibuss.4527 said:

Your fractal CM static or a pug group? Skipping the newest fractal CM has been a staple of the LFG ever since ever, same thing happened for Silent Surf and Ai.
What makes this a strike?

My CMs+T4 static. We did the CM for the title, but once we all 5 of us had it, we didn't added 100 CM on our daily CMs+T4, and when it's daily 100 we just do normal and call it a day.

[Daggoth.3102]

any day i see any of the fractals or recs being lonely tower i just skip everything. nothing is worth this absolute crapfest.

[zeyeti.8347]

On 6/23/2024 at 11:57 AM, Tibuss.4527 said:

I haven't done the NM ever since the CM released, but before it did it didn't feel too spongy on NM to me, but I was running exclusively with groups that clear CMs no problem. I can see how it might have too much health for "normal" T4 groups, agreed.

The cracks can be avoided thankfully, since they always spawn relative to Eparchs' position and the way he is facing. They do tick damage quite early, that is true.

Shockwave hitbox is also earlier than the visuals, at least its consistent though (still needs to be adjusted).

It's just the way most ppl feel (me included) we can see a blatant change in design with previous cm (not hp wise) and silent surf/lonely tower  , it's like anet adjust about their max benchmark trough patches of classes but forgot very few ppl are able to achieve this bench.

lot of ppl don't like it , and while doing it more and more i start to less and less appreciate this one too , fractals used to be pug friendly stuff where you run 1 heal (fb mostly preferred by some groups)+ 1supp + 3dps , here uf you ahve full melee and no movement skills to collect orbs you are pretty much scerwed if you have a nm t4 run kind of experience.

the nm is way too hard for an average t4 group. Hope they hinder the hp and make mechanics clear , like shockwave not dysinchronize and mark on the ground dealing damage when they are visually there, also the cc right after spawning orbs is kind of really crap , you don't have the time to grab the orbs before eparch eats them... Thtat's really silly.

Cm being hard is normal , but nm mode should keep in mind average group t4 + recs  (pots and food plz) and not act like this nm mode is a 5-10k ufe run... because it really feels like it.

[Tibuss.4527]

Alright Anet,

THANK you for today's patch, FINALLY i can press the F button in my fractals for 20 seconds, after the boss gets around 7 stacks of all emotions, because you "nerfed" the champion health from 6,2 million HP to 6,1 million HP

absolutely amazing game design, 11/10 would play more world of warcraft

[TexZero.7910]

Weren't you just here praising the design and how it was a good fractal ?
Irony really is in vogue.

[Nimris.3781]

1 hour ago, TexZero.7910 said:

Weren't you just here praising the design and how it was a good fractal ?
Irony really is in vogue.

he was praising gluttony killing portal strat, enjoying 4min kills and couldnt see past that

he didnt notice all the glaring issues this fractal has until gluttony stealth fix brought him to ground, i am not sure if to pity him or not.

there were plenty of people here on forums repeatedly posting multiple issues this fractal has, many concerns, bugs etc. but obviously we had to get some white knights saying this fractal is amazing, really fun and how they enjoy it

now they can enjoy this crappy design to its fullest

[Tibuss.4527]

8 hours ago, TexZero.7910 said:

Weren't you just here praising the design and how it was a good fractal ?
Irony really is in vogue.

Yes i was, because the gluttony strategy really fit what fractals are, fast-paced PVE content. Now that you have to spend way to much time on a very boring vanilla split mechanic, it makes it way worse.
It's like if they added a 20 step "click the right button" event to AI and you have to do that before you can CC the adds at 66% and 33%, this is what this is.

[Tibuss.4527]

7 hours ago, Nimris.3781 said:

he was praising gluttony killing portal strat, enjoying 4min kills and couldnt see past that

he didnt notice all the glaring issues this fractal has until gluttony stealth fix brought him to ground, i am not sure if to pity him or not.

there were plenty of people here on forums repeatedly posting multiple issues this fractal has, many concerns, bugs etc. but obviously we had to get some white knights saying this fractal is amazing, really fun and how they enjoy it

now they can enjoy this crappy design to its fullest

If they either actually managed to lower the health of the champions properly and/or limit the add spawning in the split phases, it would at least be somewhat properly doable,

They made the rest easier by giving you way more time to collect orbs, making the boss itself even squishier and envy less punishing.

That doesn't change the fact that at least for me, the orb collecting mechanic and everything around it was amazing. It still is, now it just goes to kitten in the splitphases.

Edited Wednesday at 08:30 AM by Tibuss.4527

[Cyninja.2954]

5 hours ago, Tibuss.4527 said:

Yes i was, because the gluttony strategy really fit what fractals are, fast-paced PVE content. Now that you have to spend way to much time on a very boring vanilla split mechanic, it makes it way worse.
It's like if they added a 20 step "click the right button" event to AI and you have to do that before you can CC the adds at 66% and 33%, this is what this is.

No, you were enjoying yourself using an exploit/bug to circumvent many of the issues the fractal has. Which is fine, you were having fun speed-running the content making you feel as though you've earned the kill by ignoring the intended design, we've all been there.

Now that the exploit/bug is fixed and players are forced to engage with the fractal as the developers intended, suddenly the "issues' many of us were calling out become more apparent.

5 hours ago, Tibuss.4527 said:

If they either actually managed to lower the health of the champions properly and/or limit the add spawning in the split phases, it would at least be somewhat properly doable,

That's part of the design of this fractal and guess, what: champion health and mini add spawns were called out as issues in this fractal. Glad you are finally on board.

Not to mention my breakdown of split phases usually allowing players to "cooldown" mentally a bit in past fights, something this split phase does not allow (yet).

Quote

They made the rest easier by giving you way more time to collect orbs, making the boss itself even squishier and envy less punishing.

Another issue which was identified and called out (check the other thread where players talk about what needs fixing). Not only was it made more lenient, it also made certain bugs less annoying.

Quote

That doesn't change the fact that at least for me, the orb collecting mechanic and everything around it was amazing. It still is, now it just goes to kitten in the splitphases.

The orb collecting mechanic is a nice idea, I even said so in my breakdown in the other thread. The execution of it was the issue and the last patch made it better now.

So if Arenanet fixes and adjusts some more issues, this fractal might be salvaged and actually turned into a decent fight. One where players are not required to use exploits/bugs to manage developer mistakes or skip the majority of the fights design.

Edited Wednesday at 01:36 PM by Cyninja.2954

[luvum.8723]

so, how can i dps now Avatars on Eparch? They took 10-30% damage from mates=/  

[Aurora.9347]

And after the fix it is actually worst, anet you can't balance content for crap even if we gave you the solution, the previous iteration of the fight was actually a good design compared to what we got now, you should play your content to actually know if it is good or not and that is the issue you guys make fights without ever testing them, and what happens when a developer doesn't play it's own game... well of c we all know the result seriously...

[Krzysztof.5973]

I will say it again Anet... If you put as much effort into wing 8 as this new fractal cm... you'll be better off discontinuing all future strikes, raids and fractal development. It's just embarrassing... 🙄

[Xentera.4560]

How anet fixes things.

[Nimris.3781]

7 hours ago, Tibuss.4527 said:

If they either actually managed to lower the health of the champions properly and/or limit the add spawning in the split phases, it would at least be somewhat properly doable,

this is not about hp numbers. split phase shouldnt be around doing even more dps, it should be some non-combat or semi-combat task.

look at arkk pushing orbs, ai meteors, clouds, tethers or sorrows, ensylos capping orbs. these are great examples of split phases

even if they nerf hp by another 50%, it will again boil down to:

- is your group aoe dps amazing? yes? snooze fest. no? impossible wall.  now you enter your lfg group and you either 1-shot it or group disbands

this is the problem with this phase, it will be either joke if they put really low hp ( like 500k per champion) or impossible for 99% groups if it remains 3m+.  they can make this fight easy, but they cannot make it fun/intresting.

simply put it is complete design failure

7 hours ago, Tibuss.4527 said:

They made the rest easier by giving you way more time to collect orbs, making the boss itself even squishier and envy less punishing.

they didnt make it easier, they made it less annoying/unfair. boss droping essence and collecting it 2s later wasnt hard, it was stupid design and impossible to counter. envy skill corrupting entire bar wasnt hard, was annoying as hell.

also boss hp wasnt big issue, entire split phase is an issue.  adds knocking you back, pulling, putting impassable walls - this is huge issue. i have even seen ppl /gg when wall add spawns, thats not fun, thats just terrible design and most frustrating split phase ever created. also do you know that adds can interrupt closing portals? fun right?

beside do we really have to do consoles on daily basis for cm? why?

 

they did some stealth fixes so we cannot enjoy easy kills, intorduced more bugs and didnt touch fractal in general. it still remains as longest fractal and its even harder now.

this is guaranteed skip and once again, this entire fight is simply put complete design failure that require overhaul, not just little bug fix

Edited Wednesday at 04:25 PM by Nimris.3781

[Tibuss.4527]

4 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

No, you were enjoying yourself using an exploit/bug to circumvent many of the issues the fractal has. Which is fine, you were having fun speed-running the content making you feel as though you've earned the kill by ignoring the intended design, we've all been there.

Now that the exploit/bug is fixed and players are forced to engage with the fractal as the developers intended, suddenly the "issues' many of us were calling out become more apparent.

The thing is, I personally was never convinced that killing the champions was the intended strategy, because their stats were just so clearly out of proportions of what they might be. If I had thought that that was the way to do from the start, I would 100% have been on your side.
You can call it an "exploit" which after the fix, it was considered as such, but exploiting it still required you to play a strategy, getting someone to collect all the gluttony and having to have multi-hit AOEs at the ready for the splitphases made for an exciting MECHANIC, not necessary exploit.

 

4 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

That's part of the design of this fractal and guess, what: champion health and mini add spawns were called out as issues in this fractal. Glad you are finally on board.

Not to mention my breakdown of split phases usually allowing players to "cooldown" mentally a bit in past fights, something this split phase does not allow (yet).

I hope you can understand my thought process: if killing the champions wasn't intended, making their health obscenely large to give the player a bait-and-switch moment was fine by me. When you make it required to kill them, it becomes a problem, obviously.

 

4 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

So if Arenanet fixes and adjusts some more issues, this fractal might be salvaged and actually turned into a decent fight. One where players are not required to use exploits/bugs to manage developer mistakes or skip the majority of the fights design.

I can see why we so clearly disagree on this. You saw the gluttony as 100% an exploit, which the developers apparently agree with, while I saw it as giving us the challenge of giant health sponge champions by just circumventing having to kill them by playing the boss in a specific way.
It was counterintuitive, yes, but it was fun, not that easy to pull off, and a way better design for fast-paced fractal combat.