RazieL.5684 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 11 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said: 1. Tank isn't a role that exists in PvP. It has no purpose. There are no aggro mechanics. PvP is about killing each other. Healers are supposed to be kept alive by their allies. It's not a solo role. should i have called it "bunker"? healers are supposed to survive 1 dps attacking them, not forever ofc, but they shouldn't be insta gibbed by dps otherwise they become a burden to the group 13 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said: 2. Cele isn't a "tank" (or healer) gear. Tanks and healers don't kill stuff and there are better stats for tanking and/or healing. Cele builds do kill stuff. Quite effectively. cele gear is "tank" gear that tanks less than tanking gear, heals less than healer gear and does more damage than a tanking/healer gear it's literally the perfect balance between offense and defense... there are some cele builds that can kill stuff effectively like harbinger for example, but generally cele builds just out-sustain glass and kill it slowly 17 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said: 3. There are many stat combinations that offer defensive stats and that are just as good at countering "oneshots" than cele. Reverting cele buffs would change nothing vs oneshots, because only vita and toughness are relevant in that situation and those stats haven't changed. true, so there's no issue 18 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said: 4. Dmg modifiers and extra stats from traits aren't exclusive to certain stat types and cele can make use of those too. yes, but because they are percentages, the more base stat you have the more bonus damage you get from those modifiers for example berserker has ~1300? power cele has ~600 10% damage of which will be more? 19 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said: 5. Yes, power scales better with stats and modifiers than condi. Which is why it's so ridiculous that cele can technically compete even with power only builds - but then gets condi pressure on top that is pretty close to that of a pure condi build (that's also why there is zero reason to play anything pure condi over cele anymore). no, again if you are going to compare the damage you are comparing one person hitting glass and the other hitting a tank, shocker that toughness and vitality help cele survive for a while... if you are going to argue damage you compare them to 0 toughness targets or just go condi yourself instead of power and nullify the toughness difference and now the cele is just as squishy as you 24 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said: Oneshots are gated by stats, survival is not. But that's completely irrelevant here. Oneshot builds have absolutely no relevancy in this discussion. Absolutely nobody is complaining that cele can't get oneshot - the few of you that want to defend cele are the only ones that keep bringing that nonsense up every single time. Yet cele defense vs oneshots has never changed, there are many stat combinations that offer more vita + toughness and that are therefore even harder to oneshot, and therefore nerfing or even deleting cele wouldn't change a thing in this regard. so if, by your words - nothing will change, why are we talking about it? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyreva.1078 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 8 minutes ago, CafPow.1542 said: Again not saying cele is totally fine If that was the only thing you'd have said and left out all the other - mostly unrelated - stuff, we could actually agree. Guess i'll leave it at that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazieL.5684 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 19 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said: my main problem with your previous post was that anyone is affect by an exponential gain in power damage from trait/upgrade choices, while you said: which is simply false. only the starting base is lower. further for damage in a 1 vs 1 scenario, which as far as i understood this thread is mostly about, your group burst demonstration doesnt matter at all. yes power builds will burst higher and for a short amount of time they might even have relevant boons for that up, coupled with the breakbars on a boss that will get to quite high levels. but do you ever wonder why most solo open world champ farm builds are cele? because when solo and the fight last longer than a couple seconds, boon uptime and the condi portion of the damage will easily push cele solo dps beyond that of power, while in most cases having higher sustain. (thief in WvW would be a bit of an exception to that sustain due to invigorating precision still being at 20% there, while otherwise having not much scaling for healing power) you might like the new relic that lets every power build have that trait now even though in a bit lower % combined with sigil of blood and food that steals life per hit you can make a pretty solid power build with sustain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyreva.1078 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 (edited) 17 minutes ago, RazieL.5684 said: should i have called it "bunker"? healers are supposed to survive 1 dps attacking them, not forever ofc, but they shouldn't be insta gibbed by dps otherwise they become a burden to the group Has nothing to do with cele. 17 minutes ago, RazieL.5684 said: literally the perfect balance between offense and defense... And having a single "perfect" hybrid stat combo among many "imperfect" ones is no issue? What's the point of all those other stats then? Do you even remember that there are many more stats than cele, zerk and minstrel? 17 minutes ago, RazieL.5684 said: no, again if you are going to compare the damage you are comparing one person hitting glass and the other hitting a tank, shocker that toughness and vitality help cele survive for a while... if you are going to argue damage you compare them to 0 toughness targets or just go condi yourself instead of power and nullify the toughness difference and now the cele is just as squishy as you I'm comparing two players that hit each other - because that's how PvP works. This isn't about PvE (btw even in PvE the difference in dps between cele and vipers is only ~ 10% without taking self buffing capabilities into consideration - do you really think that minuscule difference can ever make up for the huge difference in defense and boons in any situation where boons and defense isn't completely irrelevant?) 17 minutes ago, RazieL.5684 said: so if, by your words - nothing will change, why are we talking about it? Nothing would change if this was only about "oneshot players complaining they can't oneshot" - which were your words, not mine. Edited June 27 by Zyreva.1078 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CafPow.1542 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 10 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said: If that was the only thing you'd have said and left out all the other - mostly unrelated - stuff, we could actually agree. Guess i'll leave it at that. If that would have been the only thing i said i would have oversimplified an issue that is not that easy. this would be basically only one point better than being wrong. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 (edited) 44 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said: which is simply false. only the starting base is lower. Yes but we ARE talking about a situation that has to choose to between fixed stat-blocks. This is the reality of it. Due to this fact, Celestial can never deal as much damage as Berserker, and the Berserker damage ramping at the end of its equation is tagging waaaay larger whole number gains than the Cele ever could, because of how math works. 44 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said: further for damage in a 1 vs 1 scenario, which as far as i understood this thread is mostly about, your group burst demonstration doesnt matter at all. All I'm talking about right now is the math behind it. The posted video was demonstrating a visual confirmation of the damage ramping of berserker. What you seen there was a 9 second kill on a CM boss that has somewhere near 8 million health. Really let that sink in, think about it for a minute. 52 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said: But yes, cele won't "oneshot" fractal bosses, so it has to be balanced in WvW You're missing the point bud. The point is that I can oneshot your cele build in wvw with something like a Sic Em One Wolf Pack Soulbeast wearing berserker. I mean where does the complaint turn to after you show up to a duel session and someone schools all your cele builds with some highly mobile berserker builds? I'm home and I have time today and I can record some easy footage in the armistice bastion, if you want to show me how overpowered cele is. I can run any class you want against it, while wearing berserker. I'm actually being serious for the sake of constructive feedback for this thread. I think most of you here complaining about cele are seriously not understanding the skill ceiling that full DPS builds have. Edited June 27 by Trevor Boyer.6524 4 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyreva.1078 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 11 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said: You're missing the point bud. The point is that I can oneshot your cele build in wvw with something like a Sic Em One Wolf Pack Soulbeast wearing berserker. Many tried - all failed (at least if they were on their own). 13 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said: I mean where does the complaint turn to after you show up to a duel session and someone schools all your cele builds with some highly mobile berserker builds? I'm home and I have time today and I can record some easy footage in the armistice bastion, if you want to show me how overpowered cele is. I can run any class you want against it, while wearing berserker. Your oneshot slb vs my cele core ranger? Let's go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nefras.7314 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 4 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said: In truth, you can closely replicate the same results with a combination of different gear pieces and runes, meaning that nothing would change if you remove Celestial today. Sry how exactly are you reaching the same results with different gear/runes when cele give more overall stats ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 1 minute ago, Nefras.7314 said: Sry how exactly are you reaching the same results with different gear/runes when cele give more overall stats ? I don't think he means exact mathematical add ups, but more that you could stack like Grieving + Minstrel for example, and it would replicate Cele. Actually... because of how expertise kind of doesn't matter in high end duels because people cleanse so fast... that might actually be better than Cele... like a lot better... uh oh. 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CafPow.1542 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 13 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said: Your oneshot slb vs my cele core ranger? Let's go! Record it guys! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nefras.7314 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 1 minute ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said: I don't think he means exact mathematical add ups, but more that you could stack like Grieving + Minstrel for example, and it would replicate Cele. Actually... because of how expertise kind of doesn't matter in high end duels because people cleanse so fast... that might actually be better than Cele... like a lot better... uh oh. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSwEYSNsMU2Hzi5xaxi+5NeC-DWRYjhxG14SJzCo0QI3Eo3IQ+rC0QfnSAA-w You might wanna rethink that 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyreva.1078 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 4 minutes ago, Nefras.7314 said: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSwEYSNsMU2Hzi5xaxi+5NeC-DWRYjhxG14SJzCo0QI3Eo3IQ+rC0QfnSAA-w You might wanna rethink that What do you mean, you've got more power!!! (And less everything else, but pst, we don't talk about that, because power scaling is op ...) 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Nefras.7314 said: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSwEYSNsMU2Hzi5xaxi+5NeC-DWRYjhxG14SJzCo0QI3Eo3IQ+rC0QfnSAA-w You might wanna rethink that I don't get what you mean ^^ Those stats look good man. And it doesn't suffer the drawback of expertise doing nothing when dueling something like a Druid that cleanses too often for the expertise to ever do its job. That build actually has latently high power & condi damage, higher than cele. All you'd need to do is make sure you had fury buff and use like writ of masterful accuracy, and that Harb build would hit harder than cele but still tank like cele. Too many people don't seem to understand that offensive pressure is defensive. The harder you can offense, the less breathing room other players have to be able to offense you. Edited June 27 by Trevor Boyer.6524 1 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazieL.5684 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 37 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said: Has nothing to do with cele. cele is tanky stats, it fits perfectly in this category 38 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said: And having a single "perfect" hybrid stat combo among many "imperfect" ones is no issue? What's the point of all those other stats then? Do you even remember that there are many more stats than cele, zerk and minstrel? you are saying that as if cele was created yesterday and before that all those other obscure stats were used on a daily basis... even now with cele, being this "overpowered powerhouse" for the past 11 years, zerk and marauder/dragons are predominantly used... stuff like "vigilant", "apothecary" or "bringer" are so niche they probably won't see use more than maybe 1 item on 1 person to min max perfectly some percentage 48 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said: I'm comparing two players that hit each other - because that's how PvP works. This isn't about PvE (btw even in PvE the difference in dps between cele and vipers is only ~ 10% without taking self buffing capabilities into consideration - do you really think that minuscule difference can ever make up for the huge difference in defense and boons in any situation where boons and defense isn't completely irrelevant?) exactly, and that's not how it works... as stated several times already it shouldn't be shocking to you that tanky stats absorb damage... and source? i'm thinking it's a tiiiiny bit more than 10%... 52 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said: Nothing would change if this was only about "oneshot players complaining they can't oneshot" - which were your words, not mine. well yeah nothing would change if a tank changes from one tanky stats to another, i would just go use trailblaizer and still get plebs whispering me about THAT now... i mean even in spvp people cry about bunker builds with exactly the same idea "i can't kill it fast so it's busted" and the "one shot" is just an exaggeration don't get so hung on the word even though my class has 11k base hp and i have been crit for more than that god knows how many times at this point by NOT "meme" builds the point is still the same - glass cries that tanks exist because they actually have to fight something instead of nuking it out of stealth/1200+ range 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nefras.7314 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said: I don't get what you mean ^^ Those stats look good man. And it doesn't suffer the drawback of expertise doing nothing when dueling something like a Druid that cleanses too often for the expertise to ever do its job. That build actually has latently high power & condi damage. All you'd need to do is make sure you had fury buff and use like writ of masterful accuracy, and that Harb build would hit harder than cele but still tank like cele. I- It gains 130 condi dmg, and 4,5k hp over cele. In every other stat its worse, as the power gain is fully negated by crit loss. In what world is that better ? Im not even gonna go into how condi dura affects 1v1s here. Edited June 27 by Nefras.7314 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyreva.1078 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 2 minutes ago, Nefras.7314 said: I- It gains 130 condi dmg, and 4,5k hp over cele. In every other stat its worse, as the power gain is fully negated by crit loss. In what world is that better ? Im not even gonna go into how condi dura affects 1v1s here. It loses hp. It's only power and condi dmg stat that are slightly higher. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazieL.5684 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 38 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said: Your oneshot slb vs my cele core ranger? Let's go! can we have that streamed or something? no bashing just actually curious how things turn out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyreva.1078 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 12 minutes ago, RazieL.5684 said: can we have that streamed or something? no bashing just actually curious how things turn out... Idk if Trevor streamed, but i recorded and will post it here once it is uploaded ... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazieL.5684 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 5 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said: Idk if Trevor streamed, but i recorded and will post it here once it is uploaded ... you're done already? jesus you guys are expeditious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bq pd.2148 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said: Yes but we ARE talking about a situation that has to choose to between fixed stat-blocks. This is the reality of it. Due to this fact, Celestial can never deal as much damage as Berserker, and the Berserker damage ramping at the end of its equation is tagging waaaay larger whole number gains than the Cele ever could, because of how math works. All I'm talking about right now is the math behind it. The posted video was demonstrating a visual confirmation of the damage ramping of berserker. What you seen there was a 9 second kill on a CM boss that has somewhere near 8 million health. Really let that sink in, think about it for a minute. yes celestial does not do as much power damage as berserker and in a group setting with boons etc. covered it will also do overall less damage. but in solo roaming you for one do not take all of those damage modifiers, need to keep your own boons up and the power coef. of skills is mostly lower in WvW so the difference is certainly there but you are still miles away from the higher ends of that equation. thats why i would rather use solo builds for killing bosses as comparison if one does compare with PvE options, as those are also more self sufficient and about longer fights, that will happen if an opponent would avoid your burst once or multiple times. but even then in a pvp situation some of the damage comparison changes: bursts can kill at which point power will outperform cele, but bursts can also be avoided as was quite common in pre 2020, duels didn't just all end in <5s there. cele only does more damage when it can utilize the hybrid nature of their stats fully, but condi damage always has the problem that the opponent can either shrug it off more or less completely or it will overwhelm them. the boon advantage for the cele build can be reduced with strips, that are not as commonly done by NPCs because of this my thief for instance has an advantage against most cele builds by not only being almost immune to their condis but also bursting them harder than they can burst back, running rending shade i also do get their full stack boons so i dont have to build them myself. only when they also have high projectile hate uptime and are able to avoid my bursts occaisonally, it might be a very long fight. other power builds however are far more dangerous and more likely to kill me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 (edited) 1 hour ago, Nefras.7314 said: I- It gains 130 condi dmg, and 4,5k hp over cele. In every other stat its worse, as the power gain is fully negated by crit loss. In what world is that better ? Im not even gonna go into how condi dura affects 1v1s here. Condi duration is bad in actual pvp against good opponents, that's the point. When you're in any respectable 1v1, it'll last 10-15 minutes and the person you're fighting will be cleansing so often that the expertise is literally doing nothing at all. The only thing that matters is your condi damage whole number for initial base duration burst impact. In this case of Grieving + Minstrel, you'll actually be dealing MORE damage in a realistic 1v1 than with Cele. Also the power damage side is certainly not losing out to Cele. You're getting more power and just as much ferocity, with a bit less crit chance, which you're already still near 40%. You can just use fury 20% + write of m accuracy for another 10% to still have like 70% crit, and then if you're running curses, 2% more crit for every condi on that player. That Harb build will realistically have somewhere near 75% to 80% crit chance like at all times. Even the healing will be high with Minstrel, to help fuel blight heal over time. I'm telling you, if you were to test that Grieving/Minstrel mix, it would probably perform better than Cele on a Harb, in all seriousness. If it didn't, it would certainly be comparable. 1 hour ago, Zyreva.1078 said: Idk if Trevor streamed, but i recorded and will post it here once it is uploaded ... I did record it but if you are already uploading, I'll let you handle it. He did win with a cele ranger vs. berserker soulbeast, but there are a few things to note about this encounter before people go crazy on comments: This was an isolated duel test, not actual roaming. When you see the video, you can plainly see that I wouldn't have to fight his build if I didn't want to in actual roaming. There are many times I greatly outpace him and could leave if I had wanted to. But for the sake of the record test, I stayed and kept making passes for the sake of the test. It's as I had already explained in previous comments: "Cele builds are strong in isolated 1v1s", that's what the stat line is good at. But as I also explained, they are realistically slow. This is the drawback. As you can see in the video, the build I am using could disengage 1v2s or 1vXs, and survive, via LB3 stealths and smoke field blasting/leaping if I really needed it. The build he is using, could not disengage even a 1v2. He doesn't have stealth on that build and he has limited mobility. As soon as he was 1v2, that build would go down fast. In other words, I could easily disengage and leave 3 or even 4 of him. But he would not be able to disengage and leave even 2 of me. This is the drawback that I was explaining to the difference between actual roaming builds vs. celestial duelists. Furthermore, any Ranger main knows that Condi Ranger variants hard-counter Power Ranger variants. This is just the way that it works in pvp and wvw and it doesn't have anything to do with Celestial. He could be running variants between Sinister/Viper/Trailblazer/Plaguedoctor/Marshal/Carrion and he'd still counter Power Ranger variants unless I could greatly outplay him, because that's just how the archetype designs interact. Really, we probably should have used a better class vs. class match up to represent cele vs. power stats. Keep in mind I'm running a build designed for roaming, not dueling. Out of respect for the test, I kept the usual build structure for high impact damage that uses force/impact and bloodlust "which I wasn't even able to stack before the duel". I could have designed an energy/cleanse condi tank for the sake of isolated 1v1ing, but I didn't really think about it at the time. Lastly, the only reason he even catches me at the end, is because I had a failed LB3 stealth. This **** has been happening in wvw a lot lately. It wasn't a miss or block or glancing blow or a daze that interrupted me. I push the LB3 and you can see on my screen the skill pushes & flashes, but for some reason it just doesn't do anything. There are no animations or skill cancels, it just like puts my skill into a "queue?" or something. I dunno, if you don't believe I can clip it and post. Point being, he wouldn't have ever been able to catch me if it weren't for this skill delay stuff we have going on. And if it had been actual roaming, I would just leave, as I have no incentive to stay in an isolated 1v1 against a duel build. GG to him nonetheless though. I was expecting him to bad but he was actually pretty good. Edited June 27 by Trevor Boyer.6524 1 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyreva.1078 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 (edited) There you go: Core account with (mostly) exotic cele gear vs "oneshot" slb: I recommend watching at double speed and/or skipping through it, because it really isn't very spectacular. There are a few cuts that are unintentional - i simply stopped recording, because i thought the fight was over, then got attacked again and started recording mid combat again (i'm not using shadowplay or a similar software that would allow backtracking to catch everything). Don't think any further commentary is needed ... Edited June 27 by Zyreva.1078 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nefras.7314 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 27 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said: Condi duration is bad in actual pvp against good opponents, that's the point. When you're in any respectable 1v1, it'll last 10-15 minutes and the person you're fighting will be cleansing so often that the expertise is literally doing nothing at all. You seriously do a single duel for over 10 minutes ? 29 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said: The only thing that matters is your condi damage whole number for initial base duration burst impact. In this case of Grieving + Minstrel, you'll actually be dealing MORE damage in a realistic 1v1 than with Cele. Also the power damage side is certainly not losing out to Cele. You're getting more power and just as much ferocity, with a bit less crit chance, which you're already still near 40%. You can just use fury 20% + write of m accuracy for another 10% to still have like 70% crit, and then if you're running curses, 2% more crit for every condi on that player. That Harb build will realistically have somewhere near 75% to 80% crit chance like at all times. Even the healing will be high with Minstrel, to help fuel blight heal over time. I'm telling you, if you were to test that Grieving/Minstrel mix, it would probably perform better than Cele on a Harb, in all seriousness. If it didn't, it would certainly be comparable. Effective Power on cele is higher than on that mix regardless on how much crit chance youre getting, and crit chance gets amped more on cele as you have higher condi dura. http://gw2power.com/?builds=(necromancer|griev%2Fmstr;cele;;;;|;;;;;|;;;;;|1958;1820;0;0;0;|1687;1900;0;0;0;|706;975;0;0;0;|1457;1720;0;0;0;|1528;1960;0;0;0;|457;0;0;0;0;|1;1;1;1;1;|10;10;0;0;0;|25;25;25;25;25;|1;1;0.5;0.5;0.5;|0;0;0;0;0;|0;0;0;0;0;|0;0;0;0;0;|A;A;A;A;A;|A;A;A;A;A;) Healing is higher on cele too. I see the point youre trying to make for expertise being less useful on harb but realistically youll still have higher condi damage output on it as the baseline duration of shroud torment and poison is rather short. We could argue about the specific quad stat composition all day and in all fairness i just threw together a random amount of minstrel/griev to show that the amount of stats isnt even remotely comparable to cele. 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 2 minutes ago, Nefras.7314 said: You seriously do a single duel for over 10 minutes ? Yeah that's just what happens in higher tiered sweaty duels. 4 minutes ago, Nefras.7314 said: We could argue about the specific quad stat composition all day and in all fairness i just threw together a random amount of minstrel/griev to show that the amount of stats isnt even remotely comparable to cele. Yeah I gotcha, but see I wouldn't do it the way that you did it. I would aim at using only enough Minstrel to equal the amount of toughness & healing that full Cele would normally get. A single Minstrel piece gives a lot more tough & heal than a single Cele piece. Then I would just go the rest Grieving. If you did it this way, it would result in having an equal amount of tough/heal to Cele while dipping out on a bit of vita/conc. Then you'd actually end up with a lot more attack power than Cele due to Grieving. So again, it would comparable to Cele at the least, and on some archetypes, it may actually be superior. I'm already in game testing this after noticing it today. 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyreva.1078 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said: If you did it this way, it would result in having an equal amount of tough/heal to Cele while dipping out on a bit of vita/conc. Then you'd actually end up with a lot more attack power than Cele due to Grieving. If you aim for equal toughness and healing then every single offensive stat will be lower. But yea, it's magically going to have "a lot more attack power", right. Guess that's the same sort of magic that applies a speed debuff to cele or prevents it from utilizing stealth and mobility skills. Idk how someone can spout so much easily disprovable nonsense with so much confidence. Over and over again ... Edited June 27 by Zyreva.1078 3 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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