Janthir Wilds Spear Beta Event Feedback: Thief

[kidbuu.4071]

16 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I think this was mostly by design to keep it simple except on reactive play. Each had their purpose so you stuck to the same chain unless you need to switch things up, like starting with #2 for CC, but if things get hairy, you have the option to switch to #3 for stealth. Conversely, I often used #3 as a gap closer before switching to 2-2-4-3-3-1. If they started to run, my chain after #4 switched to 2-2-4 again. 

Snow Crows has some numbers all builds, core,DE,DD, and Specter pushing over 50k, so I'm not sure... We might get another bonk on the head like with Axe 🪓 

[kidbuu.4071]

I see weapon skill three will make condi core even more viable in competitive mode ( with axe dagger as the pumper). Spear brings poke from range Gap closers 2, heals, and some strips. It could use an evade and at least a few more five-target skills. Again, this is all for competitive mode. A condition cleanse or stun brake or evade on stealth from weapon skill 3 chain would be nice ( give me old school pistol whip w/o giving me pistol whip)

[Endo.1652]

From a pvp perspective, I find the combos in 2 and 3 require you to be almost directly on top of something for the chain attacks to flow. If your target is just a bit off to the side they dont ever land and then youre just stuck spamming the same skill over and over trying to catch the person because the person your fighting is moving around. They have to be standing completely still for you to land anything. The damage these skills do in pvp dont really make up for how hard it is to land a full chain and not die during it. Only one that seems to do good damage is the third hit of 2.

Id like to see something changed either the damage tuned better across the skills or the reliability of them landing in moving targets to at least match even dagger auto chains.

You also dont really get any benefits from changing up the 2 and 3 chains at all.  You either go 2, 2, 2 or 3, 3, 3. Hitting something like 2, 3, 2 makes you actually lose out in all the additional effects each chain gives. 

Because of this and how the block is basically an aegis stack that locks you in animation. The weapon in pvp turns into, spam 3 for mobility and then auto spam someone down from afar.

[Josif.2015]

Barbed Spear: the tooltip doesn't say from what distance Thief can throw the spear. Add the throw range of 900 in the tooltip.
Ashen Assault: reduce the number of bleed and poison stacks from 4 to 2 or 1.
Mantis Sting: remove the cripple and give it to Entangling Asp.
Entangling Asp: increase the initiative cost from 2 to 3 and replace the immobilize with cripple.
Falling Spider: increase the initiative cost from 1 to 2.
Unsuspecting Strike: reduce the leap range from 480 to 400.
Vampiric Slash: increase the initiative cost from 1 to 2 and write in the tooltip that it also applies weakness.
Shattering Assault: increase the initiative cost from 1 to 2 and remove the unblockable effect.
Distracting Throw: no changes needed.
Shadow Veil: either increase the initiative cost from 3 to 6 or remove the healing.

Edited Tuesday at 10:56 PM by Josif.2015

[Endo.1652]

45 minutes ago, Josif.2015 said:

Barbed Spear: it doesn't display the from what distance Thief can throw the spear. Add the throw range of 900 in the tooltip.
Ashen Assault: reduce the number of bleed and poison stacks from 4 to 2 or 1.
Mantis Sting: remove the cripple and give it to Entangling Asp.
Entangling Asp: increase the initiative cost from 2 to 3 and replace the immobilize with cripple.
Falling Spider: increase the initiative cost from 1 to 2.
Unsuspecting Strike: reduce the leap range from 480 to 400.
Vampiric Slash: increase the initiative cost from 1 to 2 and write in the tooltip that it also applies weakness.
Shattering Assault: increase the initiative cost from 1 to 2 and remove the unblockable effect.
Distracting Throw: no changes needed.
Shadow Veil: either increase the initiative cost from 3 to 6 or remove the healing.

You sound like you dont want spear to be useable at all. Which game mode are you wanting this weapon to be gutted in?

[kidbuu.4071]

54 minutes ago, Endo.1652 said:

Because of this and how the block is basically an aegis stack that locks you in animation. The weapon in pvp turns into spam 3 for mobility and then auto spam someone down from afar

Well said. It's something I didn't get to elaborate on in my previous post, but yes, even in WVW, that's basically how the weapon is positioned using its defensive capabilities and movement capabilities is the higher priority, and switching to a more proficient weapon to execute your attacks and burst from there. Which I don't think its bad, but then it leaves three other weapon skills on the table that could be improved to be in a more engaging tool in competitive builds. 

[Josif.2015]

6 minutes ago, Endo.1652 said:

You sound like you dont want spear to be useable at all. Which game mode are you wanting this weapon to be gutted in?

It's not that I don't want spear to be useable. In my opinion, I think that some of thief's spear skills have little initiative cost and can be spammed a lot and the amount of conditions applied could be problematic for PvP and WvW. Hence why I suggested toning down the number of condition stacks applied and increasing the initiative cost for some of the skills at least for those 2 game modes.

[Asur.9178]

3 hours ago, Endo.1652 said:

You sound like you dont want spear to be useable at all. Which game mode are you wanting this weapon to be gutted in?

Considering they have a lot of "increase the initiative cost" in their suggestions, it's obvious they don't know what they are talking about because that's literally the very LAST thing one should ever consider when dealing with Thief weapon skill balances.

Every single suggestion they made (except the tooltip adjustment) sounds like something you'd expect from a person who highly dislikes Thief and wants the class to rot in the deepest darkest corner of the Earth - the Engineer icon is not helping their case.

3 hours ago, Josif.2015 said:

It's not that I don't want spear to be useable. In my opinion, I think that some of thief's spear skills have little initiative cost and can be spammed a lot and the amount of conditions applied could be problematic for PvP and WvW. Hence why I suggested toning down the number of condition stacks applied and increasing the initiative cost for some of the skills at least for those 2 game modes.

Did you even participate in the beta?

I didn't come across a single Thief in competitive gamemodes that could do anything relevant at all. The only thing that "worked" was a full zerk/ full glass build against terrible and afk players.

All in all, spear was AWFUL for competitive modes...and here you are suggesting these absurd nerfs already, before the gameplay issues themselves are fixed. What that tells me is that you more than likely didn't spend any kind of sizeable amount of time in the beta (if at all). Just because something looks strong on paper, doesn't mean it is strong in practice.

EDIT: Just did a quick scan of their history - I guess it's a troll or something.

Edited Tuesday at 11:37 PM by Asur.9178

[MKJO.8970]

7 hours ago, Asur.9178 said:

EDIT: Just did a quick scan of their history - I guess it's a troll or something.

Do not take these suggestions serious. I reviewed his history as well - some pretty strange suggestions all over the place.

[Markus.6415]

3 hours ago, MKJO.8970 said:

Do not take these suggestions serious. I reviewed his history as well - some pretty strange suggestions all over the place.

A collector for confused emojis 😅

[BobbyT.7192]

4 hours ago, MKJO.8970 said:

Do not take these suggestions serious. I reviewed his history as well - some pretty strange suggestions all over the place.

The way he write makes me think he is a bot for some reason.

[Endo.1652]

17 hours ago, Josif.2015 said:

It's not that I don't want spear to be useable. In my opinion, I think that some of thief's spear skills have little initiative cost and can be spammed a lot and the amount of conditions applied could be problematic for PvP and WvW. Hence why I suggested toning down the number of condition stacks applied and increasing the initiative cost for some of the skills at least for those 2 game modes.

If you had tested the weapon at all you wouldve noticed how very little damage you did compared to other thief weapons. You would of noticed how clunky the radius it requires to even land these chain attacks. It would be more efficient to use any other weapon set. Trying to land a full chain on a willbender or literally anything just gets you killed fast. Even in PvE sometimes I felt that it was super easy to be downstated because of how commited you are in melee.

Right now, the weapon is just a utility weapon. Even the low initiative costs are not worth it cause you spent too much time to do somethimg that gets you killed and the defensives don't do the right things to really keep you alive. Also the stealth attack is one of the most hardest to fully land out of all the thief weapons. 

Edited Wednesday at 01:43 PM by Endo.1652
To clarify that in pve the problem isnt the dmg. Thats the problem in pvp.

[MKJO.8970]

1 hour ago, Endo.1652 said:

If you had tested the weapon at all you wouldve noticed how very little damage you did compared to other thief weapons. You would of noticed how ckunky the radius it requires to even land these chain attacks. It would be more efficient to use any other weapon set. Trying to land a full chain on a willbender or literally anything just gets you killed fast. Even in PvE sometimes I felt that.

Right now, the weapon is just a utility weapon. Even the low initiative costs are not worth it cause you spent too much time to do somethimg that gets you killed and the defensives don't do the right things to really keep you alive. Also the stealth attack is one of the most hardest to fully land out of all the thief weapons. 

Incera GW2 - YouTube

I think you should go check out these benchmark videos.

[Endo.1652]

14 minutes ago, MKJO.8970 said:

Incera GW2 - YouTube

I think you should go check out these benchmark videos.

Im talking about in pvp and probably the same for WvW too. Thats why I asked what mode the guy was talking about on his choice for asking for nerfs. Talking to me about benchmarks for PvE has nothing to do with how well it performs in pvp sadly

Edited Wednesday at 01:27 PM by Endo.1652

[Endo.1652]

8 minutes ago, MKJO.8970 said:

Incera GW2 - YouTube

I think you should go check out these benchmark videos.

Even just skimming over the videos. The dmg in pve does seem nice though at least. Tbh it probably will be pretty hard to do in actual raids without dying.

[vardeleanu.8972]

Ranged stealth attack please

Change skill 1 melee animation too, and either make 2 tooltips for the different ranges, or include the bonus melee strike in the description at least

Pretty good otherwise. The block is a nice touch.

Edited Wednesday at 04:57 PM by vardeleanu.8972

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

3 hours ago, vardeleanu.8972 said:

Ranged stealth attack please

Change skill 1 melee animation too, and either make 2 tooltips for the different ranges, or include the bonus melee strike in the description at least

Pretty good otherwise. The block is a nice touch.

I'd like the block to act like Shroud of Distress in GW1. It would be similar...however it should be:

 

What it currently is,  BUT if used 50% Health or lower, costs 1 less initiative and would block the next attacks as per current description. Would give it more flare and use.

 

I'm sure someone could make a very nice suggestion or mockup of what I'm getting at.  Just look up Shroud of Distress gw1

[paper.6230]

In PvP and WvW the only thing Spear is good for is mobility.

Congratulations on designing another weapon that will be dead on release in competitive gamemodes 👏 Buffing damage won't redeem it.

I hope in future someone who actually plays, enjoys, and understands this class will take over the designing job.

[MKJO.8970]

16 hours ago, Endo.1652 said:

Even just skimming over the videos. The dmg in pve does seem nice though at least. Tbh it probably will be pretty hard to do in actual raids without dying.

I raided with this weapon, and I never died. Did all 7 wings with no problems. DPS was way too high though for condi. Power damage was a joke 🙂