Janthir Wilds Spear Beta Event Feedback: Ranger

[meerfunkuhtron.9725]

1 hour ago, meerfunkuhtron.9725 said:

-Stealth skills didn't feel different from their non-stealth counterparts. I was expecting something else that would make them a bit more unique but other than using 5 for the quick stealth access and maybe the net, the other skills don't give that much of a benefit. Additional effects, like application of more crowd control abilities, useful conditions, buffs, or a much higher damage would make sense.
Especially since stealth as a mechanic doesn't interact at all with any Ranger traits, making it so they don't have other ways of getting buffed or having additional interactions. In addition to the fact that they share cooldowns with base skills, the skills themselves should have more to them than what's been presented due to all of this.
 

Wanted to expand on this more. Would it be possible at all for the stealth skills to have condition-based damage? This can go in line with the Ranger spear as a hybrid weapon, both in terms of range and in damage types. The conditions can go more hand in hand with the effects done by their non-stealth variants, so if you're running mainly a power set-up, you're not necessarily gimping yourself if you attack while stealthed.

For example, if one of the stealth variants does poison, have an additional effect of "poison does more damage on vulnerable foes" OR "skill X does more damage on poisoned foes". Make the conditions interact with other spear skills or effects.

I'm sure it's late in their process at this point to add something of this caliber, but who knows, maybe they have an iteration with a similar set-up. But this all does tie in with my general feedback, in that the spear can use more work for it to feel like it's a finished weapon comparable to others, especially compared to synergies available in other classes/weapons.

[Pharmacist.5410]

So what most of you guys have to understand is that the spear (along with some of the others) seem to have been more focused for WvW/PvP game modes. If you have above average proficiency with thief/chaining smoke fields and above average proficiency with Untamed, spear is the absolute best choice even in its beta stage.

The ranger spear works best particularly with a hybrid Untamed. Where you can use teleports, unload condi/lifesteal/power damage, then kite into stealth. I’ve been able to win 1v3s and even pick off players moving in larger groups and successfully get away while being chased by 10 or more on many occasions. It also has superb potential in large scale with dual maces. You can tank entire zergs with this thing. Most rangers are just used to the same risk free slow paced longbow play style. That’s why it feels weird for many. High risk/high reward is what spear brings.
 

Personally I had great success with it, but it’s not meant to do insane burst damage on its own. It does a decent chunk of damage to be a threat.. Actually requires a fast pace like a thief or you’re not using it to its full potential.

Most of you are trying to use it like it’s meant to be some source of main damage. The spear is more like an escape/repositioning tool where you poke at range then explore a Net Trap set up to burst with your primary weapons or set up a daze aoe, then chain CC. It’s not a spammy weapon, you have to be surgical. Set up  your opponent. Bait out cooldowns with the daze. Teleport out. Repeat. Use the stealth ambushes wisely and not just button mash. 

It can be extremely menacing if you actually know how to balance revealed windows/stealth uptime. Certainly a higher skill ceiling and most of you are playing it wrong. This weapon can take on people vs outnumbered extremely better compared to other weapons if used correctly.

And believe me there’s plenty of access to stealth to where I’ve competed against very annoying one shot permastealth deadeyes and they end up running away when they see how I counter them and have the same stealth uptime if not more. So it’s up to the ranger to figure it out.

Edited Tuesday at 04:54 AM by Pharmacist.5410

[Raven.8206]

I have to say just not a fan, but might have just need more time with it. Feels alot like WoW melee hunter and with this new spear for the hunters that means the ranger is now a melee class as it now has more melee weapons than ranged.

Right now it just feels weaker than the throwing Axe but that might be do to not knowing what talents go with the weapon.

[BadSanta.6527]

so after more thoughts about spears heres some general conculsions :

1. Wepon dose not have clear purpuse of vison you want to call it that way by the deisgners , you gave it melle and range option and than thought what to do with it and gave is stealth without really thinking about what should it do and what the difference will it be from the non stealth version. 

2. We have to stop giving easy time to the art team , lest face it compere to other specs maybe beside of warrior this one is lack-star at least . all the animation are so reused i fells like i use soulbeast stance in spears and even then they are not that visuall 

3. DMG was talked alot in this forum so no need to recap it and it is easy to fix 

4, Alwayes think about what spear will do compere to the other wepons , it has no boons , no condi , just dmg which is always will be dependant on the mercy of balance team , why whould i take it ? for short duration of stealth ? 

5.I suggest makeing spear condi or hybride wepon 

6. untame umbous is really lazy from you guys , non range option for umbos , also the effect in my opinion should make you go stealth 

7. the net on the stealth buttom is stuipd idea 

In conculsion , the ranger spear is clearly unfished product with poteintional but mostly gimmicky which clearly not well thoght. i suggest taking it back to the drawing room and think what do you want player to do with it and what purpose it is supposes to achive. i suggest compltely redisgen it so we can avoid rev sepcter terittory which we are clearly set sail to , i think you should take brave decision and pospond ranger spear , dont lunch it with the expac lunch take some time to think about it and creat new spear 

[enkeny.6937]

12 hours ago, CETheLucid.3964 said:

So like I said, it's comparable to GS: in both damage and function. It shares a lot of it's utility with twists of it's own. It's silly to argue that you can't realistically camp range on a hybrid weapon where much of the gimmick of it is to maintain pressure.

If ranged DPS was your goal you'd clearly be better served using one of several dedicated ranged weapons ranger has access to.

But maybe that's not where you're going with that? Wouldn't say no to more damage on the range moves for spear, but you're not going to argue parity with melee when even the dedicated ranged weapons aren't doing that. At least not in good faith.

Originally you asked while we are saying spear has low damage.

Now here is a different approach:
I, a PvE player who likes raiding the most, use meta builds. It is to make the fights faster, easier. More damage means shorter fight.

In meta power builds they don't use greatswords. The reason is: it deals lower damage than the other options. 

So if a new power weapon is added to the game and it has lower damage than a greatsword without two-handed training, people won't play it. 
Power builds use axe/axe, sword/axe, hammer, mace/mace, longbow, greatsword. Meta builds will only use half of it, because you only have 2 weapon set. A 7th weapon need something for using it. Stealth is not that.

Spears works fine for PvP/WvW (I don't know the numbers there, but stealth has a good tactical value), but in PvE damage is the most important. Weapon skills can be balanced differently in PvE/PvP/WvW so increasing the damage in PvE will not affect the competitive balance.

On 6/30/2024 at 8:55 AM, CETheLucid.3964 said:

Unlike GS it's less defensive and more all in on damage

Like you said GS is defensive while Spear is a damaging type, so while the spear has lower damage output? 

All in all what I want to say is that we say Spear has low damage because we want to compare it to weapons used in meta compositions. So saying "It is almost as good as the other weapon you do not use" will just prove it has a major flaw. 

Axe/axe is used in meta builds. It has range, don't has forced movement and most importantly, it has enough damage to be used!

Is the damage is enough for playing solo? yes it is. Well, if you want to solo legendary bounties maybe not, but in most case you don't need damage check. But in group content, if you respect other people time, you will pick the option with 20% more damage over roleplaying a pikeman. 

[Lazze.9870]

9 hours ago, meerfunkuhtron.9725 said:

Wanted to expand on this more. Would it be possible at all for the stealth skills to have condition-based damage? This can go in line with the Ranger spear as a hybrid weapon, both in terms of range and in damage types. The conditions can go more hand in hand with the effects done by their non-stealth variants, so if you're running mainly a power set-up, you're not necessarily gimping yourself if you attack while stealthed.

For example, if one of the stealth variants does poison, have an additional effect of "poison does more damage on vulnerable foes" OR "skill X does more damage on poisoned foes". Make the conditions interact with other spear skills or effects.

I'm sure it's late in their process at this point to add something of this caliber, but who knows, maybe they have an iteration with a similar set-up. But this all does tie in with my general feedback, in that the spear can use more work for it to feel like it's a finished weapon comparable to others, especially compared to synergies available in other classes/weapons.

How about not asking (not like they're gonna do it anyway for the weapon to be stretched even further? Just accept that this is a power weapon.

Edited Tuesday at 12:49 PM by Lazze.9870

[Lazze.9870]

4 hours ago, enkeny.6937 said:

Is the damage is enough for playing solo? yes it is. Well, if you want to solo legendary bounties maybe not, but in most case you don't need damage check. But in group content, if you respect other people time, you will pick the option with 20% more damage over roleplaying a pikeman. 

They're gonna gonna let a new weapon be useless in PvE. Relax. It's literally a numbers game. Just buff it until it hits hard enough.

[Auron.5709]

Ranger spear has a good design idea in the blog post but the execution of skills is flawed as current version competes directly with greatsword. Spear is way too similar to greatsword in melee as of now. Balancing spears damage numbers with it's current design version will be really difficult. Either the weapon is lack luster or it makes the greatsword pointless to use.

Reasons: 1) Spear melee combo is higher dmg than the range version, which means that you are in melee as much as possible 2) Skill 2 is just a reskinned version of Maul. 3) Skill 4 is just a reskinned version of Swoop. 4) Skill 5 acts as a enhancer to the damage combo you do. 6) Melee range has all skills available and higher damage (so why be at ranged at all then).

Here are just suggestions to shift the spear away from a melee focused one (that competes directly with greatsword).

Skill 1: Range attack should be higher damage than melee. Range gameplay should be the main focus of this weapon. Melee version of this skill would be just there for a few hits and to avoid projectile defense / reflects. Also add something (like a boon) to the range version or make it 2-3 skill chain.

Skill 2: Make this ranged aoe. Stealth version can be what it is now for finishing a target. (As this would keep the design idea what was advertised in the blog post).

Skill 3: Can stay as it is. Maybe add some control to it or swiftness / super speed.

Skill 4: Should not cause damage. Or only a small amount so that it is not part of damage rotation. Movement and control skills (as it has the daze) should stay away from damage rotations so that they are available when need be. (Also remove the revealed effect).

Skill 5: Can stay as it is.

Skills in general. Movement skill should be at 3 like other weapons have. So switch the placement of skill 3 and 4.

These kinds of changes could shift the spear to be more of a mid range pure dps pressure weapon with mobility. And that in and out surprise attack movement mentality.

The weapon would then be as its own thing as: greatsword is melee focused, shortbow is the condi version of the spear in a way, longbow is staying at ranged, staff is range support and main hand axe is a hybrid / condi.

Shortbow and main hand axe might be close to this other spear idea but it is still a better option than the current direction of the spear in the beta.

[Pharmacist.5410]

1 hour ago, Auron.5709 said:

Ranger spear has a good design idea in the blog post but the execution of skills is flawed as current version competes directly with greatsword. Spear is way too similar to greatsword in melee as of now. Balancing spears damage numbers with it's current design version will be really difficult. Either the weapon is lack luster or it makes the greatsword pointless to use.

Reasons: 1) Spear melee combo is higher dmg than the range version, which means that you are in melee as much as possible 2) Skill 2 is just a reskinned version of Maul. 3) Skill 4 is just a reskinned version of Swoop. 4) Skill 5 acts as a enhancer to the damage combo you do. 6) Melee range has all skills available and higher damage (so why be at ranged at all then).

Here are just suggestions to shift the spear away from a melee focused one (that competes directly with greatsword).

Skill 1: Range attack should be higher damage than melee. Range gameplay should be the main focus of this weapon. Melee version of this skill would be just there for a few hits and to avoid projectile defense / reflects. Also add something (like a boon) to the range version or make it 2-3 skill chain.

Skill 2: Make this ranged aoe. Stealth version can be what it is now for finishing a target. (As this would keep the design idea what was advertised in the blog post).

Skill 3: Can stay as it is. Maybe add some control to it or swiftness / super speed.

Skill 4: Should not cause damage. Or only a small amount so that it is not part of damage rotation. Movement and control skills (as it has the daze) should stay away from damage rotations so that they are available when need be. (Also remove the revealed effect).

Skill 5: Can stay as it is.

Skills in general. Movement skill should be at 3 like other weapons have. So switch the placement of skill 3 and 4.

These kinds of changes could shift the spear to be more of a mid range pure dps pressure weapon with mobility. And that in and out surprise attack movement mentality.

The weapon would then be as its own thing as: greatsword is melee focused, shortbow is the condi version of the spear in a way, longbow is staying at ranged, staff is range support and main hand axe is a hybrid / condi.

Shortbow and main hand axe might be close to this other spear idea but it is still a better option than the current direction of the spear in the beta.

Everyone’s just playing it wrong tbh. Most people here I bet are playing soulbeast and have no clue how to even play as a melee ranger. You have to be Untamed. Imagine playing Staff deadeye, yeah doesn’t really make sense. It’s toolkit is directly designed for PVP/WVW  for crying out loud. So PvErs just stop.
 

All spear needs is auto attack range increase or damage increase, unleashed ability needs to follow the bimodal design instead of just melee and then the animations color hue fixed. The leap skill did seem to delayed at times so that’s another thing, I’m sure they noticed. But besides that everything else feels right, even the leap being at #4 feels fine. 4/5 is defensive,  2/3 offensive. it’s not rocket science. Stop comparing it to other weapons. Spear can help you be very surgical and hard to hit. I’m talking literally jumping into zergs and killing 1-2 people then leaping away like nothing happened. Catching stragglers then obliterating them then disappearing in a span of 2 seconds. Learn to play people, spear actually outperforms both GS and staff for defense in my opinion. And has offensive utilities that can counter just about every possible build in the game and you don’t even know it.

Edited Tuesday at 07:07 PM by Pharmacist.5410

[Josif.2015]

Drake's Swipe, Bee's Sting, Wyvern's Lash, Cheetah's Strike: no changes needed.
Mongoose's Frenzy: no changes needed.
Wolf's Onslaught (spear 2 stealth attack): no changes needed.
Falcon's Stoop: no changes needed.
Owl's Flight (spear 3 stealth attack): remove the unblockable effect.
Warclaw's Engage: remove the evasion.
Predator's Ambush (spear 4 stealth attack): remove the evasion.
Panther's Prowl: increase the count recharge from 10 to 15 seconds.
Spider's Web (spear 5 stealth attack): reduce the web duration from 4 to 3 seconds.

[CETheLucid.3964]

14 hours ago, enkeny.6937 said:

Originally you asked while saying spear has low damage

There's more to ranger spear than just DPS going on. And the DPS isn't bad either. That's all I was saying.

My original assertion wasn't that ranger spear is perfect. That I can understand wanting it to get more damage, especially since it's not nearly as hot swap defense/offense as GS can be. They're comparable, but clearly not the same.

The CDs aren't as forgiving as most ranger weapons. More ground targeting movement skills. Don't know where Anet wants to go with the idea of separate stealth move CDs. If they go with it at all. Factors into where the weapon goes DPS wise.

GS without the great block and maul combo wouldn't be much of a weapon. Spear has the same potential but it lacks the defensive utility and big packets of damage GS can drop.

This is where the stealth mechanic and offering separate CDs for the stealth skills can come into play. Give it an extra stealth charge in PvE just to get off these multiples of the move set. It's true that stealth isn't nearly as valuable in PvE as it is in PvP modes.

The stealth should last a second or two longer in general. Also Spider's Web shouldn't eat one of your stealth charges in addition to having a long CD. The longer CD is enough without screwing you out of the weapon mechanic.

Don't understand the change to Two-Handed Training. Ambidextrous was modified to work with maces. Why couldn't Two-Handed Training just work on both spears?
That's what I have off the top of my head.

Edited Tuesday at 10:46 PM by CETheLucid.3964

[meerfunkuhtron.9725]

22 hours ago, Pharmacist.5410 said:

Most rangers are just used to the same risk free slow paced longbow play style. That’s why it feels weird for many.

Your post had some wild assumptions, especially since others with complaints have stated they played this in WvW. And as a person who's played with sword and GS predominantly for the 10 years+ I've been playing this game (and class), I'd say that my complaints regarding spear has nothing to do with it not being an easy breezy LB playstyle.

You also mention playing this as Untamed, and yet others here like myself tested this on Untamed. It's fine to acknowledge that your experience was different, but let's not shut everyone else's feedback down for not matching that experience. Do we honestly not want Anet to not improve on anything regarding the spear because you had an ok time? Which obviously isn't the case because even you feel that there needs to be some improvements...

7 hours ago, Pharmacist.5410 said:

All spear needs is auto attack range increase or damage increase, unleashed ability needs to follow the bimodal design instead of just melee and then the animations color hue fixed. The leap skill did seem to delayed at times so that’s another thing, I’m sure they noticed.

Literally what you mentioned here are a big part of what people have in their own feedback. Only thing missing is the response regarding being revealed on skill use and skills being a bit too slow or having long cooldowns. Which, I agree with you that it is important to point out that the weapon perhaps isn't meant to be spammed. And I'm thinking that's why there's a disconnect with the stealth mechanic and the skill's cooldowns. Because when people think about stealthy gameplay, having slow reaction times isn't what comes to mind as a suitable pair.

The problem that I have with what you're proposing however is that it's ok that the spear only excels as an Untamed in PvP/WvW and when played a certain way? Am I getting that right? So if you play a bit differently, or enjoy a different game mode, then the weapon isn't for you? Which to me is acceptable, but only to an extent.
If we look at weapons that are geared towards a certain mode or playstyle, like the thief rifle for example. That weapon came with a whole elite spec. So even if thief players weren't interested in how that weapon works, they still have a spec to play around with and tweak to their liking. The spear is just a weapon. Making it serviceable to just a very small portion of the playerbase means that the rest gets left out with nothing else to look forward to in this aspect. Why would anyone want that?

Remember that this feedback thread is for Rangers as a whole, not just Rangers in WvW who plays a certain way. So of course, if the weapon doesn't feel good for PVE, then that feedback is more than welcome here. If it doesn't feel good for those of us who find the stealth mechanic too cumbersome or its effects too underwhelming, then this is the perfect place for that too.
TLDR you could share your successes with the weapon without telling others to shut up.

[Pharmacist.5410]

18 hours ago, meerfunkuhtron.9725 said:

Your post had some wild assumptions, especially since others with complaints have stated they played this in WvW. And as a person who's played with sword and GS predominantly for the 10 years+ I've been playing this game (and class), I'd say that my complaints regarding spear has nothing to do with it not being an easy breezy LB playstyle.

You also mention playing this as Untamed, and yet others here like myself tested this on Untamed. It's fine to acknowledge that your experience was different, but let's not shut everyone else's feedback down for not matching that experience. Do we honestly not want Anet to not improve on anything regarding the spear because you had an ok time? Which obviously isn't the case because even you feel that there needs to be some improvements...

Literally what you mentioned here are a big part of what people have in their own feedback. Only thing missing is the response regarding being revealed on skill use and skills being a bit too slow or having long cooldowns. Which, I agree with you that it is important to point out that the weapon perhaps isn't meant to be spammed. And I'm thinking that's why there's a disconnect with the stealth mechanic and the skill's cooldowns. Because when people think about stealthy gameplay, having slow reaction times isn't what comes to mind as a suitable pair.

The problem that I have with what you're proposing however is that it's ok that the spear only excels as an Untamed in PvP/WvW and when played a certain way? Am I getting that right? So if you play a bit differently, or enjoy a different game mode, then the weapon isn't for you? Which to me is acceptable, but only to an extent.
If we look at weapons that are geared towards a certain mode or playstyle, like the thief rifle for example. That weapon came with a whole elite spec. So even if thief players weren't interested in how that weapon works, they still have a spec to play around with and tweak to their liking. The spear is just a weapon. Making it serviceable to just a very small portion of the playerbase means that the rest gets left out with nothing else to look forward to in this aspect. Why would anyone want that?

Remember that this feedback thread is for Rangers as a whole, not just Rangers in WvW who plays a certain way. So of course, if the weapon doesn't feel good for PVE, then that feedback is more than welcome here. If it doesn't feel good for those of us who find the stealth mechanic too cumbersome or its effects too underwhelming, then this is the perfect place for that too.
TLDR you could share your successes with the weapon without telling others to shut up.

Just trying to say that Spear works with Untamed best, like rifle works best on Deadeye etc. it’s servicable on the other specs but feels way better with untamed utilities. Druid is a close second with bloodmoon daze/immob spam. SB works too but untamed just has more upfront burst/survivability with the unleash utility for a hit and run specific playstyle with enveloping Haze, teleports, and easier to pet blast combo stealth.

 I keep saying untamed performs best with the assassin spear concept because unleash skills generally have an assassin style concept as well is what I’m trying to say. Like Dagger Untamed for one example, is actually nuts with spear.  Even Longbow/Spear and just about any weapon works with spear. So I don’t get what’s so shocking about my argument when all other classes have specs with their own niche utility when equipped with a specific weapon type to accomplish a playstyle that works best with the right elite spec.

I’m not saying it doesn’t need any improvements. It’s just few tweaks I mentioned and it’d be perfect.

Others are proposing all types of cooldowns reductions, longer stealth, reworks, removing reveals and more. so with my experience I view it as players having personal skill issues not conceptual issues since it felt fluid to me for the most part. It’s just the minor tweaks I mentioned that would be enough to improve the weapon.

The spear is already performing well for the most part imo and I understood how to use it offensively and defensively , so I expected others would get a grasp on the concept. I’m surprised how many people are confused or disagree which led me to believe they haven’t put in any hours playing a melee assassin playstyle and probably just camp longbow.

it’s a not a wild assumption because it’s the most common ranger playstyle. Even Longbow/Spear can be effective as well but the concept felt most  deadly as a melee assassin. If you’re confused you’ll eventually get what I’m saying once it goes live.

Basically any X/Spear can perform well in different ways . Spear should be viewed as a secondary defensive in its ability to evade, stealth, and then CC to reposition and set up a window to use primary skill swap then repeat. 

Stronger auto attacks by adding either more range or more damage would be all it really needs. Then animation tweaks. The unleash could ideally compliment the bimodal design to hit targets at further distance but it did surprise me at times with its decent cone range, so I wouldn’t lose any sleep if it remains the same but it would still be cool to have some kind of long range unleash. 

Edited Wednesday at 09:20 PM by Pharmacist.5410