The Max Swim Speed Infusion Exists in the Game... But is Impossible to Obtain

[Shadowmoon.7986]

This system was made years ago by someone who did not understand math or possibly because they wanted a infinite system like fractal infusions that they never expected anyone to ever make the upper tier. These were made before skimmers, so once skimmers could go underwater, this content is pretty much irrelevant. 

What I find it strange is the QoL team kinda missed the point why this system is bad.  And they overhaul things that do not fix that issue.

[andreiblue.8231]

On 6/30/2024 at 2:23 PM, Gazrul.3086 said:

It's a useless addition to the game. I simply ignore it. Small swim speed increase doesn't matter anywhere. 

This entire event is a pointless waste of time in my opinion. 

Not true, the infusion still sell for a nice profit so it is worth opening chests once in a while as an easy farm.

[Cyninja.2954]

As was pointed out by Epsilon Indi.2031 earlier on, there is no value in upgrading swim speed infusions past a certain point.

Due to the nature of movement speed and the movement speed cap in the game, this can be figured out relatively easy:

1. There is absolutely 0 benefit to getting swim speed infusions for out of combat movement with swiftness

2. Following point 1, this means any benefit to swim speed is in regards to either out of combat without any movement speed bonuses (no superspeed, no relics, no traits, etc. all of which will immediately cap you at 400 u/s) or any in combat movement where your base movement speed is lowered

3. For in combat movement we know that superspeed will cap your movement speed at 400 u/s, Another way to cap movement in combat is Relic of Swiftness, minimum +24 swim speed and swiftness, which too will cap your movement speed in combat at 400 u/s.

4. Bringing your swim speed to +30 will NOT cap your movement speed without any other effects in or out of combat (you will reach 273 u/s in combat and 382.2 u/s out of combat)

For details on movement speed, see the wiki: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Movement_Speed

That said, the interesting caps are (in declining order of usefulness):

1. getting a base +10% swim speed infusion to cap out of combat movement speed while under the effect of swiftness (a marginal increase from 391 u/s to 400 u/s)

2. getting a swim speed infusion of +15% to be able to upgrade it to an account swim speed infusion down the road

3. getting the account upgrade to get +20% account swim speed to increase in combat movement slightly (around 10-11 u/s per 5 ranks)

5. getting the account upgrade to get 25% account swim speed to cap in combat swim speed if using Relic of Speed and swiftness (this is already very niche at best and at current costs of over 10k, questionable)

There is almost 0 worth in getting swim speed infusions past 25. This is similar to fractal agony infusions which also do not reward significant enough benefits to increase them past certain break points.

TL;DR:

The system is not designed to have players acquire +30 infusions similar to how agony infusions in fractals are not intended to be upgraded to +30 and in fact have way earlier breakpoints. The benefits are extremely front-loaded in this system and attainable by regular players within reasonable time-frames.

Yes, players which have stat cap OCDs will be bother by this and that can be a point of frustration. Still for any reasonable impact on game play, the system works just fine.

 

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

On 7/8/2024 at 11:45 AM, Cyninja.2954 said:

TL;DR:

The system is not designed to have players acquire +30 infusions similar to how agony infusions in fractals are not intended to be upgraded to +30 and in fact have way earlier breakpoints. The benefits are extremely front-loaded in this system and attainable by regular players within reasonable time-frames.

Yes, players which have stat cap OCDs will be bother by this and that can be a point of frustration. Still for any reasonable impact on game play, the system works just fine.

 

Not comparable since you can stack multiple infusions to get the high agony resistance. The system works fine for anyone who doesn't understand what the snowball effect is. It will eventually creep into things you do care about and ruin it too, which it will be too late.

[Danikat.8537]

49 minutes ago, Eloc Freidon.5692 said:

Not comparable since you can stack multiple infusions to get the high agony resistance. The system works fine for anyone who doesn't understand what the snowball effect is. It will eventually creep into things you do care about and ruin it too, which it will be too late.

So far this setup started in 2012 with agony resistance, then 'crept' into swimming speed in 2018, which somehow became a problem when that system was updated in 2024. I'd argue that's actually a downgrade in importance because while Fractals is a self-contained system there's a lot of incentives to engage with it which make agony resistance desirable, whereas swimming faster in combat is an incredibly niche function.

If that's the start of a pattern we can expect another trivial upgrade that's virtually impossible to get in 6 years time, and maybe another 6 years after that before anyone cares. Honestly my money would be on GW2 going offline before it gets to be a problem.

(To be clear: I think it's a stupid thing to have done. I really hope it was trivial to create the higher tier agony and swim speed infusions because any time spend on making them was wasted since it's unlikely anyone will ever get one. But both have been in the game for years now, agony resistance has existed for most of the games life, so if it was going to lead to significant changes in the overall design I think it would have happened before now.)

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Eloc Freidon.5692 said:

Not comparable since you can stack multiple infusions to get the high agony resistance. The system works fine for anyone who doesn't understand what the snowball effect is. It will eventually creep into things you do care about and ruin it too, which it will be too late.

Actually it absolutely is comparable. You can theoretically reach 150 ar with 5 infusions, and then proceed to get to 540 ar for the marginal benefits of increased defensive stats.

The same applies here except that it's 1 infusion and the effect is limited to that 1 infusion. You can get to 15 or 20 swim speed and be perfectly fine or you can increase to 25 or even 30 swim speed, have near no beneficial effects (I linked the wiki and explained the break points for a reason) for doing that (aka marginal benefit as well).

In either scenario the deign and the intent is not for any player to actually go beyond the "meaningful" or reasonable upgrade levels which in case of swim speed infusions is account bound (aka upgraded +15) with at most a 25 upgrade.

There is no snowball effect unless you are talking about design, and the infusion design the way it has been handled this way has been in the game since 2016. So if there is any snowball effect, it certainly is taking its time.

Edited July 13 by Cyninja.2954

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Actually it absolutely is comparable. You can theoretically reach 150 ar with 5 infusions, and then proceed to get to 540 ar for the marginal benefits of increased defensive stats.

The same applies here except that it's 1 infusion and the effect is limited to that 1 infusion. You can get to 15 or 20 swim speed and be perfectly fine or you can increase to 25 or even 30 swim speed, have near no beneficial effects (I linked the wiki and explained the break points for a reason) for doing that (aka marginal benefit as well).

In either scenario the deign and the intent is not for any player to actually go beyond the "meaningful" or reasonable upgrade levels which in case of swim speed infusions is account bound (aka upgraded +15) with at most a 25 upgrade.

There is no snowball effect unless you are talking about design, and the infusion design the way it has been handled this way has been in the game since 2016. So if there is any snowball effect, it certainly is taking its time.

You said it is comparable, then explain how it isn't comparable since you can reach the max agony resistance reasonably and without farming dozens of years to get it.

It was incorporated into design in 2016, then we got things like the icy and fiery weapon sets costing more than multiple legendaries, followed by gen 3 legendary variations, then super ecto sinks from SotO legendary armor.

If you're going to ignore grind and resource sink escalation in things added since swim infusions, of course you would come to your conclusions.

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Eloc Freidon.5692 said:

You said it is comparable, then explain how it isn't comparable since you can reach the max agony resistance reasonably and without farming dozens of years to get it.

It was incorporated into design in 2016, then we got things like the icy and fiery weapon sets costing more than multiple legendaries, followed by gen 3 legendary variations, then super ecto sinks from SotO legendary armor.

If you're going to ignore grind and resource sink escalation in things added since swim infusions, of course you would come to your conclusions.

Yes, you can achieve the maximum agony resistance, similar to how you can reach the max swim speed and most of the "necessary" swim speed within reasonable means.

What you can't reach is the max stats from agony or the miniscule benefits of having a few u/s more, which in most cases have no actual benefit given you will be capped.

The system are as such similar, both in design as well as benefit progression:

- high and easy to achieve front-loaded benefit (which is debatteable for swim speed if it is even "necessary" but even so, the cap is easily reached)

- vastly decreasing benefits as one progress through with clear break points

- near unattainable but also miniscule to near non existant top end benefits

Grind and resource sink escalation, funny. Gen2s used to be insanely more expensive, same as gen3s which have only decreased since their release. Gen1s can't even be mentioned with the decline they have experienced in grind.

What has happened is the amount of "possible" grind has increased because by now there are far more slots which can be legendary. Both in regards to availability as well as possibility. A few years ago legendary armor was off the table for players which didn't raid, spvp or wvw. This now being a goal and some players choosing to go for these items has not increased individual grind, it has merely shifted personal demand to incorporate these items, and as you want more expensive things the grind obviously increases. 

That's without even talking about the legendary armory which has reduced the grind to multi legendary multiple characters significantly (and yes, it has shifted the demand for these items for some players). The game hasn't changed though, you can just as well enjoy it without these legendary items. A player not able to exert self controll over their desires and demands is part of this equation.

You are literally comparing apples to oranges and poorly at that.

TL;DR:

The grind has increased for any players which moved up their demands from beingbhappy with exotic and ascended gear to legendary. Meanwhile staying with exotic or ascended has become significantly cheaper/easier.

Increasing personal demand to grindier items will lead to more grind, duh.

Edited July 13 by Cyninja.2954

[Values.5278]

On 6/28/2024 at 8:42 AM, Randulf.7614 said:

Yeah according to That_Shaman only 8 people on GW2 efficiency can afford it. I put his tweets in the other post about the infusions too. Seems like a madness system to me and not one worth pursuing - then again it never was. 

 

This isn't really true by any means. More than 8 people could afford it if they tried.  

For example, he isn't including me in that 8 because my liquid gold worth is not over however much. But my account worth is like 3x+ what's required and the two reasons I don't have that much liquid lying around are (1) multiple accounts and (2) I put my liquid into other stuff (for example, my legendary armory - https://i.imgur.com/uKhXLUv.png)

My case is far from a unique one. By my estimate, there are at least around 500 players in the game who could afford this if they actually made it a priority.

You are correct though that it requires a certain level of insanity to pursue. By my account, of those richest players in the game, there are only 2-ish of them (myself included) insane enough to tackle this project.

I plan on doing it once I finish off my armory and the wardrobe, which should be less than 100k away. I'll aim for finishing it by 2025.

[Danikat.8537]

7 hours ago, Values.5278 said:

This isn't really true by any means. More than 8 people could afford it if they tried.  

For example, he isn't including me in that 8 because my liquid gold worth is not over however much. But my account worth is like 3x+ what's required and the two reasons I don't have that much liquid lying around are (1) multiple accounts and (2) I put my liquid into other stuff (for example, my legendary armory - https://i.imgur.com/uKhXLUv.png)

My case is far from a unique one. By my estimate, there are at least around 500 players in the game who could afford this if they actually made it a priority.

You are correct though that it requires a certain level of insanity to pursue. By my account, of those richest players in the game, there are only 2-ish of them (myself included) insane enough to tackle this project.

I plan on doing it once I finish off my armory and the wardrobe, which should be less than 100k away. I'll aim for finishing it by 2025.

But this was using GW2 Efficiency's definition of liquid gold, which includes not only the gold in your wallet but also anything on your account you could sell for gold. That's why it shows different amounts for 'buy' and 'sell' - one is if you used 'sell instantly' for all your tradable items, the other is if you listed it at the current lowest sale price.

The value of your legendaries and other account bound items is irrelevant in this context, because you couldn't sell them even if you wanted to so you cannot put the gold they're worth towards buying a new item.

You're right that it doesn't factor in multiple accounts, but that's because no one but the account owners know which accounts belong to the same person. (I'm not sure even Anet can tell, they can probably see the IP addresses each account logs in from, but two accounts at the same address could be one person playing both or it could be two different people who live together.)

[Values.5278]

On 7/20/2024 at 1:10 AM, Danikat.8537 said:

But this was using GW2 Efficiency's definition of liquid gold, which includes not only the gold in your wallet but also anything on your account you could sell for gold. That's why it shows different amounts for 'buy' and 'sell' - one is if you used 'sell instantly' for all your tradable items, the other is if you listed it at the current lowest sale price.

The value of your legendaries and other account bound items is irrelevant in this context, because you couldn't sell them even if you wanted to so you cannot put the gold they're worth towards buying a new item.

You're right that it doesn't factor in multiple accounts, but that's because no one but the account owners know which accounts belong to the same person. (I'm not sure even Anet can tell, they can probably see the IP addresses each account logs in from, but two accounts at the same address could be one person playing both or it could be two different people who live together.)

Yes. The top ~500 or so players almost all have multiple accounts and many hide their stats (of their alts) from the GW2E leaderboard. And GW2E likely knows, as you can attach multiple account APIs to the same GW2E account and then use a drop-down to shift between them to track them all independently.  

As for my other point, it's about people who are willing to spend their gold not having the liquid on-hand because they are actively spending it on other goals. For example, I don't have enough liquid gold on my main account right now to just drop 300k on a single item, but I've spent more than that on various projects so far this year (Facet, Legendary Armory, Achievements, wardrobe, etc.).

My point is that many people _can_ afford this. More than 8 people. The real limiter of the ~top 500 or so is that they have pretty much zero incentive other than just insanity.