Spear condi is not the answer.

[HearldofTime.8294]

TLDR: stop begging for a condi weapon because that wouldn't remove the current problems with spear, so stop spamming.

Obviously this is only a beta so I'm not treating this like its the final product. I keep seeing over and over people begging this weapon to be condi and its rather tiring and won't fix the issues already present with the spear's existence; like lack of synergy with traits/skills etc. I admit its dumb that its another melee power when in actuality it should have been power ranged(sword is support, doesn't count.) But eh that's imo, though the same three chain ending in an ice combo just like GS is really dumb, just like on release this was probably the necro spear skills were likely the last worked on and they ran out of ideas.

 

But why condi? There is literally, absolutely no reason for this weapon to have been a condi and the people who are complaining have either no logic, or its full of flaws. Scepter and Pistol have always been fine, the former doesn't use projectiles and the second has a stun. For all the years this class has been nerfed to the ground and up, its condi game has always been decent at best and below average at worst. A spear condi would not change ANYTHING.

And for people who say 'power necro options have always been bad... so its pointless to give it another power weapon' no **** the whole concept of power necro is to bank all DPS on shroud, and in some cases the same issue is there with condi variants of reaper and harbinger. The reason Spear is a power weapon is because they KNOW our power options outside of shroud are absolute garbage, meanwhile Scepter/Pistol+torch is able to keep high numbers even as scourge.

 

So stop begging and spamming.

[Batalix.2873]

Nah.

1. I think we have the appropriate amount of ranged spear implementations. Warrior and Ele are pure ranged, Rev and Guardian are midrange, Thief and Ranger are hybrid. And Mesmer, Engi, and Necro make a lot of sense as the melee spears. The amount of consideration put into these designs is much better than SotO or even EoD weapons, and Necro fits into everything very well.

2. I don't care for power ranged builds much. In fact, between pmech and pvirt I think they constitute some of the worst-designed builds in the game. But even acknowledging that as opinion, that playstyle does nothing for me, especially on Necro.

3. I also don't care about filling every niche out of OCD. I liked when professions had gaps in their designs, and I want Necro to continue having limited range and mobility options.

4. Necro swords are already power ranged. We already have that, ask for them to be made better if you want a viable ranged power weapon.

5. What I do want, however, is for Necro spear to feel even more different from Rev's slow-chill, Ranger's power assassin-pouncing, and Mesmer's power melee. And as a matter of aesthetics and functionality, Necro spear already is designed to *be* a condi melee weapon. The effects are toxic green. The soul shards look like poison fangs that could stack poison buffs. Distress has a flame effect that could apply burning. Extirpate is like an uber-condi. The design screams condi so much, they should just go ahead and do it.

So sorry, my opinion is more than about just filling holes like yours is, and I like it better.

Edited Friday at 11:11 PM by Batalix.2873

[Purple Effects.2503]

4 minutes ago, Batalix.2873 said:

Distress has a flame effect that could apply burning. Extirpate is like an uber-condi. The design screams condi so much, they should just go ahead and do it

A condi melee weapon will never compete against its ranged options, it’s pointless to exist.

why do the same damage with melee limitation when u have ranged options with higher uptime, your just naturally better. 

the only reason power spear could be useful is because it only competes with other melee options lol

[Batalix.2873]

3 minutes ago, Magmi.6723 said:

A condi melee weapon will never compete against its ranged options, it’s pointless to exist.

why do the same damage with melee limitation when u have ranged options with higher uptime, your just naturally better. 

the only reason power spear could be useful is because it only competes with other melee options lol

It's pointless if all you care about is PvP/WvW/raids and "viability." As a matter of job fantasy and simply having fun things to in open world, spears seem to not really care much how they fit into those modes.

But even still, with enough tuning, any melee condi weapon could be viable in PvE or even PvP. We have plenty already: mirage and firebrand axe, holo and weaver sword, rev mace. Just because the devs have screwed up making ranged condi builds too kit-easy to play does not mean there is no design space for melee condi. It just means they need to design with a little more intention/foresight. I think Necro deserves a solidly designed melee condi weapon more than it needs another power ranged weapon.

I think your take is myopic, I don't agree with it.

 

[Purple Effects.2503]

1 hour ago, Batalix.2873 said:

t's pointless if all you care about is PvP/WvW/raids and "viability." As a matter of job fantasy and simply having fun things to in open world, spears seem to not really care much how they fit into those modes

How does it not care about fitting into open world, being condi or power at large as no pros or cons in that environment.

regardless of being power or condi, it will fit perfectly into open world content.

the only boxes that require ticking for that is simply: 

can it do at least 3k DPs. Lol

weather spear is fun or not, will be opinionated, 

however spear being power doesn’t take away from class fantasy lol, spear is very obviously necro. Because thematically it screams necromancer. No ones gonna look at necro spear and mistake you for a Mesmer… 

Spear has problems and concerns to critise however this isn’t it. Spear can be great for open world content regardless of dmg type. 

Edited Saturday at 01:13 AM by Magmi.6723

[Purple Effects.2503]

1 hour ago, Batalix.2873 said:

. I think Necro deserves a solidly designed melee condi weapon more than it needs another power ranged weapon

There are plenty of solid melee designs it doesn’t change the fact being ranged is a direct advantage, this is across all mmorpgs lol. 

it’s nothing to do with ease of play, it’s just the natural advantage. 

when classes are doing 45k DPs in a game that demands 10k it simply comes down to secondary factors entirely. 

necromancer would have benefitted far more from a ranged power weapon, then a melee condi weapon. If we were to come down to this, as it equally lacks a ranged power option, which is ironically far more damaging to the class then the lack of a condi weapon melee wise 

[Dadnir.5038]

Did necromancer needed a strike damage melee 2H weapon? The answer is "no".

I would agree with the arguments of the OP if what we got was a solid 1H melee weapon.

Sure, Necromancer need weapons that pair well with his shroud but, as far as things goes, the only things necromancer really lack are a melee 1H strike damage weapon to pair with death shroud, a decent 2H ranged strike damage weapon to pair with reaper shroud and melee 1H and 2H condi weapons to pair with harbinger's shroud. The melee strike damage 2H option is fully fulfilled by GS.  

Edited Saturday at 07:25 AM by Dadnir.5038

[felincyriac.5981]

speaking from a pvp perspective, power necro as a whole needs some changes, even if spear is good, it just doesn't matter if the overall build is crap. A condi weapon on the other hand is likely to perform well given how strong necro condi options are.  

 

Sadly given how long its been since sword release, I doubt power necro will ever be meta any time soon.

Edited Saturday at 08:12 AM by felincyriac.5981

[Asum.4960]

The premise is a bit flawed. Would changing Spear to a completely different weapon, trying to fit into different builds and competing with different existing options fix it's problem? Maybe?

That said, a new weapon addition for Necromancer being either a Support Weapon or Condi Melee/AoE/Cleave weapon would have without a doubt made more sense, yes.

Necromancer doesn't need more power weapons, it needs it's trash weapons reworked. Between just Axe and Dagger MH there is plenty room to fill this exact niche that Spear seems to be targeting. 

As for Condi weapons, Necromancer heavily relied on Epidemic in it's original design, and since that skill was obliterated by nerfs, Necromancer, the former "Master of  Conditions", has some of the worst condi cleave out of all professions. 

Additionally, Condi is exponentially more survivable than Strike damage builds - so a melee weapon could actually make some sense there.

Speaking from my experience in doing solo challenges (such as Fractals), which are quite good at highlighting balance differences, Power Necro just straight up struggles harder to solo T1 Fractals than Condi Necro soloing T3-4 Fractals. Power Necro just doesn't work well outside of braindead easy OW content.

The amount of sustain, blocks, invulns and co., a Necromancer Power Melee weapon would need to be even remotely viable under any actual pressure when compared to condi is untenable. Power Necro just doesn't have the design foundation. It can be hacked together to do competitive damage in PvE Group content by now, after a decade of buffs, but that's about it. 

And for that it already has Greatsword, Dagger MH, Axe, Staff, Focus, (formerly) Warhorn, Sword MH and Sword OH as options. If Anet wants to give Power Necro some more/updated options, why not change one or multiple of these? Why add another one onto this by far largest pile of Weapons, especially when no single weapon has a chance to fix or compensate for the underlying design issues of Power Necro especially? 

At least Condi Melee/Aoe Spear would add a new playstyle and fill a niche. Not just be "Hey, so I know that after 11 years we finally buffed Dagger MH to be a somewhat viable weapon, filling the Melee Burst with some self-sustain niche.. so here have a better Dagger, we call it Spear, it's a melee burst weapon with some self-sustain, and the gap closer Dagger 3 should have had since a decade!".

Cool.

But it's not like anything is going to really change at this point if the last decade of betas and feedback periods are anything to go by. Dagger 1.2 is what  we are getting, like it or not.

[zeyeti.8347]

13 hours ago, HearldofTime.8294 said:

sword is support, doesn't count

Euhhh ... am i the only one thinking "what the heck is he talking about ?" 

how does sword is a support on necro ? how does it support your allies ? literally not a single interaction with allies , neither heal them , neither boon them ... , if life steal is what you call support then anyone using Relic of Zakiros is considered support . The boon rip ? every necro weapon has boon rip ... what you call support is sustain and mobility ....

So it's kind of understandable ppl want a condi melee weapon , cause necro has none of that , spear is competing against greatsword who does way more damage (in pve) , maybe it will be used as a second set for reaper/harbringer , maybe for hscg mobilty , but sword fill already that need .

I was franckly expecting a support weapon or a melee condi weapon.

Edited Saturday at 11:59 AM by zeyeti.8347

[HearldofTime.8294]

22 hours ago, Batalix.2873 said:

*snip*

You know its amazing, every time the first person who responds to my post in these forums seems to completely ignore what I wrote then goes on to make a fool of themselves, and I can't help but repeat the same question over and over,

 

If you're going to ignore what I wrote, why should I read what you wrote?

 

@Zeyeti.8347

 

Necro sword is about as much as a power weapon as a plastic spoon I just used to eat an enormous burrito. Maybe support was the wrong word, but can you blame me for its terrible dps? It was made to provide self-sustain while sacrificing said self-sustain to do extra(but pitiful) damage. Perhaps a proper support spear would have been better than another power weapon, but frankly its pointless since Necromancer has been a selfish class since release, and a single weapon cannot overturn what has been rooted since the beginning.

 

The only way to go is either be a lower tier, but safer dps option unless its a raid/strike mission boss with a niche necro can only fill, like SH for epidemic.

Edited Saturday at 09:39 PM by HearldofTime.8294

[draxynnic.3719]

On 6/29/2024 at 8:53 AM, HearldofTime.8294 said:

TLDR: stop begging for a condi weapon because that wouldn't remove the current problems with spear, so stop spamming.

Obviously this is only a beta so I'm not treating this like its the final product. I keep seeing over and over people begging this weapon to be condi and its rather tiring and won't fix the issues already present with the spear's existence; like lack of synergy with traits/skills etc. I admit its dumb that its another melee power when in actuality it should have been power ranged(sword is support, doesn't count.) But eh that's imo, though the same three chain ending in an ice combo just like GS is really dumb, just like on release this was probably the necro spear skills were likely the last worked on and they ran out of ideas.

As somebody has said, it wouldn't actually require that much of a redesign for spear to be condi-based. The graphics already fit what you might expect from a condi weapon, it'd just be a matter of reducing the power coefficients and putting appropriate conditions in instead. This is something the regular balance team can do, and would immediately change which abilities and traits the weapon synergises with. When it comes to wanting it to be ranged - axe and sword exist, even if you don't like them. If they're not good enough, this means they should be buffed (something which, again, the balance team can do) rather than taking another swing at power ranged which might miss as well. In fact, if anything, their status as already existing simply exacerbates the issue for people who want a condi melee option, since the list of suitable options for a condition-based melee weapon is becoming increasingly constrained.

On 6/29/2024 at 8:53 AM, HearldofTime.8294 said:

But why condi? There is literally, absolutely no reason for this weapon to have been a condi and the people who are complaining have either no logic, or its full of flaws. Scepter and Pistol have always been fine, the former doesn't use projectiles and the second has a stun. For all the years this class has been nerfed to the ground and up, its condi game has always been decent at best and below average at worst. A spear condi would not change ANYTHING.

Ah, yes, the "ranged condi options already exist".

Yes, they do.

Contrary to popular opinion, though, melee weapons DO generally have more power budget available than the ranged weapons. The reason you see the opinion that ranged versus melee balance doesn't matter is that in some cases the melee weapon is defensive in nature rather than oriented towards maximum DPS (mesmer sword as a power option, but it's looking like the highest DPS mesmer power builds won't be full ranged for long), it exists but it's only really useful for a specific elite specialisation (mirage axe), it was powercrept because ArenaNet desperately wants to make people use the latest weapon (ele pistol), or it simply doesn't exist (oh hey condi necro). Generally speaking, though, being melee allows more power budget to be in the weapon otherwise. Spear has a bit of self-sustain, but it's otherwise fairly offensive-oriented: as a condi melee weapon, it should outDPS the existing ranged options. (And the current condition necromancer builds have room for a little more DPS at the cost of needing to go into melee...) Notice how power harbinger and power reaper are currently outDPSing their condi equivalents? Notice how the power builds are full melee while the condi variants are bringing ranged? Notice how the gap is smaller with the reapers, since condi reaper can convert greatsword into a hybrid weapon through Deathly Chill? This is probably not coincidence. 

On 6/29/2024 at 8:53 AM, HearldofTime.8294 said:

And for people who say 'power necro options have always been bad... so its pointless to give it another power weapon' no **** the whole concept of power necro is to bank all DPS on shroud, and in some cases the same issue is there with condi variants of reaper and harbinger. The reason Spear is a power weapon is because they KNOW our power options outside of shroud are absolute garbage, meanwhile Scepter/Pistol+torch is able to keep high numbers even as scourge.

Yeah, life force spending is generally the biggest source of damage for necromancers... but if you're playing reaper, you need to be in melee with shroud, and if you're playing harbinger, you have a ranged autoattack but you still probably want to be in melee while in shroud, especially if you're not running Deathly Haste. This applies to both power and condi builds. But the power builds can drop out of shroud and keep hitting with a melee weapon, while condi harbinger in particular converts to ranged when they drop out... with a lower strength budget than a melee weapon would likely have. Maybe having a melee condi weapon could help necro break out from being a "lower tier, but safer dps option" by offering a higher risk/higher reward option.

On 6/29/2024 at 8:53 AM, HearldofTime.8294 said:

So stop begging and spamming.

Everybody has the right to their opinion.

You have the right to disagree with it, but those who disagree with your disagreements have a right to respond.

And throwing insults and ad hominems at the people who disagree with you will persuade nobody.

Edited Sunday at 05:12 AM by draxynnic.3719

[HearldofTime.8294]

18 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

*snip*

So basically your argument boils down to 'what ifs' and 'maybes.' Maybe you haven't been around as long as I have, but the balance team for this game has a history of... 'turning the other cheek.' and flat out ignoring criticism, suggestion, and any of the sort. Necromancer as a result has suffered the worst from this. As previously mentioned it is a selfish class that contributes little to the team and brings with it mediocrity to compensate. How would a melee condi really be different than a power melee at this point? The answer is obvious: nothing. There will be no synergy with any trait, utility, etc. From all gameplay standpoints be it PVE, PVP, WVW whatever, nothing would change. I understand it is a sad reality but we're how many years into this game with four expansions, a fifth one coming soon, and people have these delusions of grandeur that maybe, just maybe their bad ideas will finally get attention when the status quo has been firmly established.

 

And for the record, 'spamming' is ill-advised in most forums that is one piece of advice you and others should definitely take, and begging is just annoying and sad.

[mirage.8046]

A melee condi weapon, though that can be main-hand dagger, was a fair guess from the necro community. There are indeed a lot of condi and power weapons, yet those weapons are midrange, long-range, projectileless, or melee greatsword lol. 

On 6/28/2024 at 3:53 PM, HearldofTime.8294 said:

But why condi? There is literally, absolutely no reason for this weapon to have been a condi and the people who are complaining have either no logic, or its full of flaws. Scepter and Pistol have always been fine, the former doesn't use projectiles and the second has a stun. For all the years this class has been nerfed to the ground and up, its condi game has always been decent at best and below average at worst. A spear condi would not change ANYTHING.

And for people who say 'power necro options have always been bad... so its pointless to give it another power weapon' no **** the whole concept of power necro is to bank all DPS on shroud, and in some cases the same issue is there with condi variants of reaper and harbinger. The reason Spear is a power weapon is because they KNOW our power options outside of shroud are absolute garbage, meanwhile Scepter/Pistol+torch is able to keep high numbers even as scourge.

 

So stop begging and spamming.

Melee isn't a problem with supports and other players; however, being alone, melee is so inappropriate for necro because necro can't protect itself without stability, invulnerability, evade frames, vigor, aegis, or channeled blocks. Necro will die in WvW or PvP by shadowstepping with spear 4 having nothing to fall back on. Also, it relies on hitting a target to teleport in the first place! As cool as spear sounds, it needs a big tune-up before discussing power, condi, melee, or ranged. While spear has the reset mobility function, it's gonna be hard to use it on enemies with stealth, dodges, or evade frames. Even in PvE I question spear's utility and sustain; the damage is great, but it either competes with greatsword or it won't be used. Honestly, this weapon is also trying to push main-hand dagger out of the way as well because it also has sustain and good life force gen.
 

The second problem is that spear doesn't do anything else that sword or greatsword can't do beyond boon negation or resetting one of its skills. Spear makes less and less sense the more one looks at its problems. I wanna love spear, but its flaws make me not want to use it. A melee condi spear does change stuff because you can bypass the projectile blocks, and melee rewards you for more damage. If we keep the power side, take away the chill from this weapon and give us weakness or slowness to hamper enemies. I don't want a repeat greatsword.

I'd rather buff the core weapons at this rate rather than introduce spear. Power damage can become better just by fixing the core weapons! It has many outdated bad choices barring pistol, scepter, torch, greatsword, swords, or staff. Please name me another class with many weapon choices but they're outdated, have limited utility, and do little damage.

[draxynnic.3719]

7 hours ago, HearldofTime.8294 said:

So basically your argument boils down to 'what ifs' and 'maybes.' Maybe you haven't been around as long as I have, but the balance team for this game has a history of... 'turning the other cheek.' and flat out ignoring criticism, suggestion, and any of the sort. Necromancer as a result has suffered the worst from this. As previously mentioned it is a selfish class that contributes little to the team and brings with it mediocrity to compensate. How would a melee condi really be different than a power melee at this point? The answer is obvious: nothing. There will be no synergy with any trait, utility, etc. From all gameplay standpoints be it PVE, PVP, WVW whatever, nothing would change. I understand it is a sad reality but we're how many years into this game with four expansions, a fifth one coming soon, and people have these delusions of grandeur that maybe, just maybe their bad ideas will finally get attention when the status quo has been firmly established.

 

And for the record, 'spamming' is ill-advised in most forums that is one piece of advice you and others should definitely take, and begging is just annoying and sad.

Has seven posts, a join date barely two years ago, and is trying to claim veterancy over someone who was a mod on GuildWarsGuru back in the day and a major contributor to GuildMag (you probably don't even know what that is because we had to shut down due to the main graphics designers moving on a few years ago).

Doesn't seem to be aware that multiple flavours of support necromancer exist.

Claims that ArenaNet never responds to criticism, yet seems to think it's important enough to shut down criticism to make a thread to do so.

Posts what they know is a hot take, while openly insulting anyone who disagrees while only repeating the same discredited talking points they started with.

Yeah, I think we're done here. I expect I'll see you next time I clear the cave for the Infinity Coil pre-event.

[Asum.4960]

8 hours ago, HearldofTime.8294 said:

How would a melee condi really be different than a power melee at this point? The answer is obvious: nothing. There will be no synergy with any trait, utility, etc. From all gameplay standpoints be it PVE, PVP, WVW whatever, nothing would change. 

That's just not true though. Whether you like it or not, Condi does in fact have a much better and more solid design foundation on Necro, and is actually playable in melee. 

Through being able to run Celestial Gear with still good DPS due to Condi's Hybrid nature (which not only makes Condi far more tanky, but also buffs their already better sustain in things like Scourge Barrier's and Harbinger's Alchemic Vigor), to sustain Traits like Parasitic Contagion, to even being able to run Death Magic these days which through Deadly Strength not only isn't as bad of a damage loss as it used to be (at least for Condi/Hybrid Builds), but especially with the cleanse of Shrouded Removal and most importantly the Protection uptime of Corrupter's Fervor - a melee condi weapon, especially one with decent cleave, would instantly be more viable than strike damage in solo PvE and WvW especially. 

Power builds just do not have these options. Gear wise, you can maybe get away with Marauder's, Dragon's or Diviner's - but no combination of these for Power builds can compete even remotely with the Damage, tankyness and sustain package of Celestial for Condi/Hybrid builds. 

Sustain wise Power builds have far worse options and no healing power to scale the ones they do. They can sacrifice their relic slot now for Zakiros, to get a worse Parasitic Contagion - but then Condi/Hybrid builds could even run that too. But since they don't need it, they can therefor use better options furthering their DPS lead over Power, even on far tankier setups. 

Trait wise, Power loses far, far more DPS by taking things like Death Magic - while making much worse use of it. Power needs Spite and Soul Reaping to perform properly. Condi meanwhile can branch out from Curses and SR for, especially in SR's case, very minor DPS losses, while picking up major tankyness/sustain. 

 

Now, there is one thing to consider though - and that is combining all the sustain of Dagger 2, Spear 2, Relic of Zakiros and Soul Eater on Reaper, together with Reaper Shroud's damage absorption and reduction, as well as Infusing Terror's damage reduction. 

All of that combined could actually make for a fairly surviveable Power Necro. Still no where near a Cele Condi Necro mind you, especially without good Prot source, but alright (and still far worse than the active defenses of other classes for competitive, especially against CC/focus pressure). 

The problem with this kit though, especially for competitive (as far as even available), is that it's entirely melee. It's a build that requires you to maintain <300 range and active pressure at all times. Spear 4 and RShroud 2 are not sticky enough for that. So once again we are back in fantasy land, where Dagger 3 needs to be a 600 range shadowstep, and Fleshwurm needs a rework to be a ~900 range shadowstep, which instead drops a Wurm at arrival location (which could be reworked to spin around on occasion, trying to knock nearby foes down for a few seconds before disappearing or smth). 

Maybe then Power Necro, dancing between Shroud, Dagger 2 and Spear 2 sustain, as well as applying constant pressure and being that endlessly chasing movie monster they sold us in 2015, could actually play with the big boys. But that's never going to happen. The PvP community especially has been conditioned for 12 years to expect Necromancer to be a free kill, and we all know how they react if it can remotely fight back on it's own or escape - and I'm pretty sure the balance powers that be are part of that crowd. In their eyes, Necro is supposed to be slow, predictable, lame, require support crutches to survive, and should only shine in Teamfights when it can unleash it's AoE potential - otherwise be nice free pickings for low skilled roamers/sidenoders to feel good about themselves. 

 

To sum it up:

Spear being a Melee Condi weapon would make a difference. Not only is Melee and Cleave/AoE an unfilled niche for Condi Necro with Scepter and Pistol both being mid range weapons with strong single target/tight stack focus - Condi Necromancer ironically also is the one that would have the tools to fight and sustain in melee.

Power on the other hand has it's niches covered, with Dagger MH and GS for melee, Axe and Swords for midrange and Staff for long range it's already by far the most catered to and complete weapon selection Necro has. If anything is lacking, it can and should be done within these options. Additionally, for Power Necro to be genuinely suitable for melee, it needs a lot more than what Spear offers, or even can offer on it's own.

Edited Monday at 07:46 AM by Asum.4960