How is vindicator balanced?

[Flowki.7194]

38 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

This is real long so:

Yeah, by losing more than you win every season and being low gold 3. You can play anything to plat consistently, especially on EU where rating's more inflated. 1300 isn't even top 250. Heck, my EU account sat in plat until I burnt out for the season after a rough night of queues because playing something off-meta is painfully volatile. And that's from overseas, no weaponmaster, and one of the worst possible builds in the game. Being that low is a clear poor understanding of the game at both the micro and macro level.

Yes, but my stance is that the mechanical skill difference is minor and reaching a point in which it no longer matters and Vindicator is actually EASIER to win is so low that it might not even exist. And for extremely low skilled players they can just swap to Shiro/Jalis and be objectively better.
Vindicator's nowhere near as difficult as people make it out to be and lets you get away with way more silly plays that are instant death for Herald or Ren playing the same role.
Having another set of utilities on the same set of buttons is a joke of a challenge, relative to the rest of what pvp demands. Heck, there's an argument to be made that managing energy on Herald or Ren is more mechanically demanding than Vindicator's low costs and Energy Meld.

Absolutely not. Hammer Cata and FA Cata are both better in their roles, to this day, than any Renegade build is in whatever role it's trying to fill, and the only conclusion I can draw from this is that you don't know how to play your Ele to the same degree as your Rev.

Just buy an HoT/PoF account for like 7 bucks, it floods you with infinity gold you can send to your main account and all you gotta do is play a daily pvp match.
That's what I did. The vault is godlike. Now I have lots of legendaries and full accessories.

 

Ehh, to be fair mate, think as you like.

[arazoth.7290]

47 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

This is real long so:

Yeah, by losing more than you win every season and being low gold 3. You can play anything to plat consistently, especially on EU where rating's more inflated. 1300 isn't even top 250. Heck, my EU account sat in plat until I burnt out for the season after a rough night of queues because playing something off-meta is painfully volatile. And that's from overseas, no weaponmaster, and one of the worst possible builds in the game. Being that low is a clear poor understanding of the game at both the micro and macro level.

Yes, but my stance is that the mechanical skill difference is minor and reaching a point in which it no longer matters and Vindicator is actually EASIER to win is so low that it might not even exist. And for extremely low skilled players they can just swap to Shiro/Jalis and be objectively better.
Vindicator's nowhere near as difficult as people make it out to be and lets you get away with way more silly plays that are instant death for Herald or Ren playing the same role.
Having another set of utilities on the same set of buttons is a joke of a challenge, relative to the rest of what pvp demands. Heck, there's an argument to be made that managing energy on Herald or Ren is more mechanically demanding than Vindicator's low costs and Energy Meld.

Absolutely not. Hammer Cata and FA Cata are both better in their roles, to this day, than any Renegade build is in whatever role it's trying to fill, and the only conclusion I can draw from this is that you don't know how to play your Ele to the same degree as your Rev.

Just buy an HoT/PoF account for like 7 bucks, it floods you with infinity gold you can send to your main account and all you gotta do is play a daily pvp match.
That's what I did. The vault is godlike. Now I have lots of legendaries and full accessories.

Renegade is easier/more straightforward to play then vindi. Atleast if you're using kalla it's more straightforward. It's not that kalla has that many combos/abilties to use for many different situations where you have to make decisions/adapt.

The difference is, Renegade sucks.

Herald is atm inbetween, noting extraordinary compared to other classes/specs who do better.

[Shagie.7612]

1 minute ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Renegade is easier/more straightforward to play then vindi. Atleast if you're using kalla it's more straightforward. It's not that kalla has that many combos/abilties to use for many different situations where you have to make decisions/adapt.

I've never denied that? Kalla doesn't have situational utility, you press the two damage summons and pray for the best. That's how it's always been, and that's part of why it's always been bad.
I'm arguing that the difference in mechanical demand is actually relatively low, that the Alliance isn't THAT complex, closer to just an initial hurdle, and that everything else about playing the entire class in a PvP environment is significantly harder for Herald or Renegade, because Vindicator lets you get away with significantly more risky plays, with mistakes, and with just having answers to things. You don't have to be some genius to remember you have a button to press.

If you commit on Herald or Renegade and it was a bad choice, you die. Vindicator on the other hand has significantly more ability to get out of that.

A situation in which the Vindicator dies, the rest of the class died like 6 hours earlier just for thinking about it, and the reasons why can't be solved easily by changing numbers around, because it's a design issue and that's why Vindicator is a problem that's going to screw over every other Rev build.
But everyone's convinced themselves that Vindicator is cool and fun and high skill when in reality it's just powercrept and that's what makes it fun.

[vilesoldier.9826]

5 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Vindicator's nowhere near as difficult as people make it out to be and lets you get away with way more silly plays that are instant death for Herald or Ren playing the same role.
Having another set of utilities on the same set of buttons is a joke of a challenge, relative to the rest of what pvp demands. Heck, there's an argument to be made that managing energy on Herald or Ren is more mechanically demanding than Vindicator's low costs and Energy Meld.

 

Yeah Vindi has always taken the ele approach to complexity (giving it more buttons) which is sort of a more "intrinsic" flavor of difficulty; the player needs to understand how to push their buttons but once that happens there's not much mechanically in the kit that uniquely (among other Rev specs) punishes bad play. The most I can see is of course the long dodge and Vindi heals both being longer casts*, but like remembering to dodge on top of people and not using long commit anims out in the open isn’t rocket science

 

Looking at Herald, this really feels more "extrinsic" in its difficulty; poor interactions with your opponent directly and uniquely punishes not only your survivability but also your ability to use skills entirely. Glint heal at 2 seconds is just 👌, enough time to tank a key attack, but will fall off hard if you put yourself in even a bit of sustained danger. Get combo CC'd with more than two facets active? bye bye energy~ (god forbid you get CC'd with facet of nature up too)

 

Honestly they're fairly comparable but in different ways. One has more challenges upfront but will generally be more effective with tbh an attainable level of competency. The other feels easier upfront (oo big heals and I barely use enery in glint 🤪) but has more challenges down the line that you have to meet correctly in every fight.

 

*OK I'll include Urn too dw

Edit: no Kalla bc I don't play it + I'm sure you already know in what ways it's extrinsically difficult

Edited Wednesday at 04:55 AM by vilesoldier.9826

[Flowki.7194]

13 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Renegade is easier/more straightforward to play then vindi. Atleast if you're using kalla it's more straightforward.

 

13 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

I've never denied that? Kalla doesn't have situational utility, you press the two damage summons and pray for the best. That's how it's always been, and that's part of why it's always been bad.

 

On 7/2/2024 at 1:52 AM, Shagie.7612 said:

Again, there's a slightly higher initial learning curve because it has more abilities. That takes like an hour to read them and learn. Past that, playing Vindicator at any given rating is ABSOLUTELY easier than playing core, Herald, or Rene.

 

You took a firm stance, either defend that stance or allow your view to change, right now you are just pushing goal posts.

 

14 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Vindicator's nowhere near as difficult as people make it out to be and lets you get away with way more silly plays that are instant death for Herald or Ren playing the same role.

 

All rev builds sit in the moderate to difficult bracket, becuase they all have energy manedgement which is a huge learning curve, and an ongoing source of "mistakes", which can and do get revs killed even at plat level. Condi builds are more forgiving for eating some damage, but with tablet, they are no less mechanically difficult (>moderate difficulty). So please kitten get off this broken record that vindi is "easy to play", you know kitten well it isn't. Anybody who is not plat level skill, fall flat on there face, just like herald, just like ren, becuase quite frankly, there are multiple easier thus more consistant classes/specs to do well with, that will mostly kitten on power revenents who are not true plat skill level. There is a reason you see 5x as many reapears/gaurds/SPBs than revs <g3, stop being delusional.

 

Also, vindi is not thief, which can get out with stealth/mobility, and it is not WB, wich has easier dmg application, and can cover its escape with more block access/mobility burst (as in chaining more get out mobility). You are only comparing it to herald/ren, and youre right, it has more mobility.. but that does not make vindi "low risk", it just makes ren/herald bad?  OR, it means mobility is crept too much, and all specs with vindi+ level mobility need to be nerfed? Take your pick.. but stop focusing entirely on vindi like a bitter, shunted bride.

Edited Wednesday at 01:36 PM by Flowki.7194

[vilesoldier.9826]

@Shagie.7612 Likely best to save your breath, and realize the reason FloFlo why will always say "Vindi is difficult to play" and never "Vindi is more forgiving later on than herald/ren" is simple.

 

They simply are only concerned with the baseline requirement to get value out of a spec, a.k.a the first few days playing. More buttons? Then yes the average player trying to get easy wins will have to work harder than just a few hours to get kills.

But beyond that, it all just goes r/whooosh. Any examples of semi-competent player vs semi-competent player is answered with "Yo my very specific core rev build stunlocks it, ez".

 

I also think it's hilarious that for someone clearly infuriated by perceived "worse players" beating him on "easier cheese specs", he takes pride in mentioning his Ventari/Mallyx core build consistently beating p1+ players (players he says are better than him). A build that a) Has a free energy button to cushion any poor energy management and b) vomits CC even while he's CC'd.

I don't even dislike core Rev, it's just always funny when someone does the "my cheese is more skillful than your cheese", especially when they don't realize it.

Edited Wednesday at 02:22 PM by vilesoldier.9826

[Shagie.7612]

46 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

You took a firm stance, either defend that stance or allow your view to change, right now you are just pushing goal posts.

What? lol
That's not moving goalposts. Yes, Vindicator has a slightly higher initial hurdle because you've gotta like, read a few more tooltips.
But the ask on that is.. incredibly minor relative to what goes into playing the class in pvp overall? And in all the rest the game asks of you, the others are significantly harder precisely because of what they lack. Intrinsic vs extrinsic difficulty is a great way to put it.
Again, your average fighting game grappler's gameplan is straightforward but nobody in their right mind would say they're easier than your average shoto character. Same thing applies here.

52 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Anybody who is not plat level skill, fall flat on there face

Think that might just be you buddy. Plenty of Vindicators survive just fine. At least relative to how they'd do on something that isn't extremely forgiving of mistakes like Vindicator anyways.
Any situation in which a Vindi would fall flat on its face because of player skill, the Herald or Renegade died long before that. A lot of non-Rev builds did too.

I think it's hilarious that you and every other Rev are absolutely convinced Vindicator is just fine when it's very clearly not, because you've all convinced yourselves that it's actually totally just high skill that's winning, and that if it wasn't you'd just die instantly.
Couldn't possibly be that the elite is massively overloaded with tons of free damage and damage modifiers, avoidance, utilitizes energy far more efficiently than the others, makes much better use of hammer than the others can, and has a third set of utilities (that are just as powerful as any other legend individually instead of y'know, the Alliance stance making two halves of a whole like would be expected) that cover basically all situations, something no other legend has. Oh, and you get away with running Salv a whole lot better on it.

The best players do pick the class, I guess.
It's funny, that statement wasn't exactly wrong. Top players did indeed pick it and did indeed win more, but it's because Herald was crazy at the time and that's just a force multiplier.

4 minutes ago, vilesoldier.9826 said:

I also think it's hilarious that for someone clearly infuriated by perceived "worse players" beating him on "easier cheese specs", he takes pride in mentioning his Ventari/Mallyx core build consistently beating p1+ players (players he says are better than him).

For the life of me I can't figure out why someone would be so obsessed with beating plat players in 1v1s. Even before EoD sent mobility through the roof there were a whole lot of other factors more important to your average conquest match.
But beating people in the pit is cool or something.

[Flowki.7194]

17 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

What? lol
That's not moving goalposts. Yes, Vindicator has a slightly higher initial hurdle because you've gotta like, read a few more tooltips.
But the ask on that is.. incredibly minor relative to what goes into playing the class in pvp overall? And in all the rest the game asks of you, the others are significantly harder precisely because of what they lack. Intrinsic vs extrinsic difficulty is a great way to put it.
Again, your average fighting game grappler's gameplan is straightforward but nobody in their right mind would say they're easier than your average shoto character. Same thing applies here.

Think that might just be you buddy. Plenty of Vindicators survive just fine. At least relative to how they'd do on something that isn't extremely forgiving of mistakes like Vindicator anyways.
Any situation in which a Vindi would fall flat on its face because of player skill, the Herald or Renegade died long before that. A lot of non-Rev builds did too.

I think it's hilarious that you and every other Rev are absolutely convinced Vindicator is just fine when it's very clearly not, because you've all convinced yourselves that it's actually totally just high skill that's winning, and that if it wasn't you'd just die instantly.
Couldn't possibly be that the elite is massively overloaded with tons of free damage and damage modifiers, avoidance, utilitizes energy far more efficiently than the others, makes much better use of hammer than the others can, and has a third set of utilities (that are just as powerful as any other legend individually instead of y'know, the Alliance stance making two halves of a whole like would be expected) that cover basically all situations, something no other legend has. Oh, and you get away with running Salv a whole lot better on it.

The best players do pick the class, I guess.
It's funny, that statement wasn't exactly wrong. Top players did indeed pick it and did indeed win more, but it's because Herald was crazy at the time and that's just a force multiplier.

For the life of me I can't figure out why someone would be so obsessed with beating plat players in 1v1s. Even before EoD sent mobility through the roof there were a whole lot of other factors more important to your average conquest match.
But beating people in the pit is cool or something.

 

Power Vindi is like holo and power ele, unless they are good enough to use the active mitigation properly, they die pretty easily, compared to things like necro, gaurds, warriors, that have more forgiving mechanics. As I also said, even my spec is more forgiving than power rev. I cba to keep arguing that point with you, so if you firmly disagree just leave it at that.

 

I never said vindi was fine I am simply saying that heavy handedly nerfing its evade access with 0 compensation is a good way to kill the spec off, just like ren. The hammer co's were high pre-buff, I wiped entire groups with it, so the refresh on hammer 5 made 0 sense (go look my post up about that when it was first buffed). From that, people didn't have a kitten clue about hammer co/mechanics/bugs etc etc, and went straight into complaints about the evades. Death drop damage is kitten and should be reduced, and hammer 5 refresh is kitten, and should never have been implimented, as it was already such a nice buff to increase hammer 5 cast time. Do you see how these are very specific things to look at? rather than blanket statements people are making of just "nerf vindi evades" or "nerf vindi damage". I mean, wtf was the urn nerf?.

 

I don't like 1v1s all that much, games should not depend on it as much as they actually do, as sPVP 3 point system makes it a thing, so also makes it an important balance consideration when looking at specs. I am predominantly a support minded player, but the game, in many ways, does a lot to discourage team play.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

2 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Again, your average fighting game grappler's gameplan is straightforward but nobody in their right mind would say they're easier than your average shoto character. Same thing applies here.

Finally someone gets it. 

Having a big kit may be more difficult to play, but that fact alone should not have any large bearing on the wins you should expect to have. 

Some players like puppet characters for example, and puppet characters are often complex. That complexity should never, in a balanced game, translate into matchup privilege  that allows someone that learned it to steamroll people who know how to fight it, but are otherwise disallowed because the kit played well virtually eliminates any weaknesses in the character.  At that point we're just looking for win justification.

I wish the nuance fighting games approach this kind of balance with was understood more thoroughly by the devs. It would blow open the meta.

Edited Wednesday at 05:18 PM by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Vindicator needs to be nerfed straight up.

It's like #1 on the nerf list and imo the only truly outlier OP build atm.

[vilesoldier.9826]

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

That complexity should never, in a balanced game, translate into matchup privilege that allows someone that learned it to steamroll people who know how to fight it, but are otherwise disallowed because the kit played well virtually eliminates any weaknesses in the character.  At that point we're just looking for win justification.

 

Inb4 "bUt ThEn WhAt'S tHe PoInT oF pLaYiNg WiTh MoRe CoMpLeXiTy If I cAnT aUtO-sTeAmRoLl"

Like idk do you actually like the classes you play?? These ppl don't see classes as cohesive parts of a bigger picture, they see them strictly as tools to win. Fotm bandwagoners with a different name smh

 

*also b4 Eles attunement swap to water 😭 on this, this is not saying your bad builds don't deserve to be buffed. This is specifically at the "I play ele = I should win" sentiment

Edited Wednesday at 07:28 PM by vilesoldier.9826

[ArthurDent.9538]

Here's my perspective, watch the MAT's from the past two months. In May most of the top teams were not using it. On NA it was necro stacks destroying everything and on EU it was a bit more common but still not by much and the winning team didn't use it. What I gathered was that it was considered too easy to lock down and kill.

June MAT comes around there haven't been any balance patches since then and but vindi sees dramatically more play getting on 3 of the 4 finals teams and getting wins on both regions. It is an interesting meta shift and it is interesting that on NA both teams in the finals ditched all their necros during the finals pregame which makes it seem like they mutually agreed to not play the reaper comps they were using till that point though maybe that just comes down to colosseum being a map dominated by mobility more than the others.

There's been a new balance patch since then but I don't feel like it changed much with regards to pvp balance other than ele likely being a complete menace in 1v1's again.

Based on that data, it seems like vindi is viable but not mandatory for a meta comp and not even necessarily optimal so I ask, is the goal for it to be balanced to a non-viable state again? We just went through nearly 2 years of rev not having any meta builds and as soon as it gets one again here come the complaints. It kinda does stick out because most of the rest of the meta is either thieves or slow bulky tanks that still do tons of damage which does make vindi very effective at farming noobs in ranked with how quickly it can finish engagements and move to the next one.

Personally I love playing against other vindi's, their stuff is actually telegraphed well and can be hard punished when they misplay, I just don't get the hate.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

21 minutes ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

so I ask, is the goal for it to be balanced to a non-viable state again?

No, it just has too much counter-offensive potential due to the raw damage on Death Drop.

When we are vs. any other build, dodge rolls are a give & take. Like you dodge and avoid something, but it also makes a telegraph for the person to follow your dodge and follow up with offense. This makes the usage of dodge rolling a skill based thing in terms of risk vs. reward with how you use your dodge rolls. This does not work this way Vindicator. Not only does Vindi have too many dodge rolls in general, but they are elongated sky dodges that don't even dedicate it into one direction for players to follow up an offense and instead allow it to move around and change directions during the sky dodge. The damage on Death Drop also hits like Ranger Maul. This forces people into a situation where even if you can follow the Vindi to attempt to follow up out of his dodge with a CC or damage, is it even worth it? I mean you're hitting him with a CC that deals no damage and you have to tank essentially a Ranger Maul level damage to be able to even land that CC. So people have to back off the Vindi's dodge and not follow the dodge with damage, due to the provided enormous counter-offense potential forced by Death Drop. The Vindi gets this massive lenience for having clean sky dodge repositions, ensuring its safety for generally maintaining the upper hand with an offensive position because you can't ride it with an offense without taking huge damage that either turns the fight around in a hurry, or you're forced to stop your offense and get off him before the Death Drop hits. It's too good at riding pressure due to this, and it is extremely difficult to find any moment if it exists at all, to create a momentum shift if the Vindi is riding pressure, due to Death Drop alone.

Few things come to mind here:

1. It either needs less frequency of dodge rolling
2. Or less damage on Death Drop, it could afford to lose about 25% of its damage potential
3. Or make it so Death Drop has a 1/4th cast time out of the dodge that can be interrupted with a CC so there is actually counterplay against it.

IMO pick one of the 3.

I don't think anyone wants to see it nerfed to the floor man, but it is honestly overperforming due to another obnoxious over-powered dodge mechanic, which is the most annoying type of OP mechanic to deal with. People absolutely do not have fun vs. OP dodge mechanics like Impaling Lotus or Infinite Horizon. That is definitely a historical thing.

Along with Vindi, Necros are honestly overperforming as well. **** has too much of everything lately. It needs to lose something.

Willbender, I dunno, it's arguable. I don't personally have a problem with it, but I know other people have arguments vs. Willbender.

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

No, it just has too much counter-offensive potential due to the raw damage on Death Drop.

When we are vs. any other build, dodge rolls are a give & take. Like you dodge and avoid something, but it also makes a telegraph for the person to follow your dodge and follow up with offense. This makes the usage of dodge rolling a skill based thing in terms of risk vs. reward with how you use your dodge rolls. This does not work this way Vindicator. Not only does Vindi have too many dodge rolls in general, but they are elongated sky dodges that don't even dedicate it into one direction for players to follow up an offense and instead allow it to move around and change directions during the sky dodge. The damage on Death Drop also hits like Ranger Maul. This forces people into a situation where even if you can follow the Vindi to attempt to follow up out of his dodge with a CC or damage, is it even worth it? I mean you're hitting him with a CC that deals no damage and you have to tank essentially a Ranger Maul level damage to be able to even land that CC. So people have to back off the Vindi's dodge and not follow the dodge with damage, due to the provided enormous counter-offense potential forced by Death Drop. The Vindi gets this massive lenience for having clean sky dodge repositions, ensuring its safety for generally maintaining the upper hand with an offensive position because you can't ride it with an offense without taking huge damage that either turns the fight around in a hurry, or you're forced to stop your offense and get off him before the Death Drop hits. It's too good at riding pressure due to this, and it is extremely difficult to find any moment if it exists at all, to create a momentum shift if the Vindi is riding pressure, due to Death Drop alone.

Few things come to mind here:

1. It either needs less frequency of dodge rolling
2. Or less damage on Death Drop, it could afford to lose about 25% of its damage potential
3. Or make it so Death Drop has a 1/4th cast time out of the dodge that can be interrupted with a CC so there is actually counterplay against it.

IMO pick one of the 3.

I don't think anyone wants to see it nerfed to the floor man, but it is honestly overperforming due to another obnoxious over-powered dodge mechanic, which is the most annoying type of OP mechanic to deal with. People absolutely do not have fun vs. OP dodge mechanics like Impaling Lotus or Infinite Horizon. That is definitely a historical thing.

Along with Vindi, Necros are honestly overperforming as well. **** has too much of everything lately. It needs to lose something.

Willbender, I dunno, it's arguable. I don't personally have a problem with it, but I know other people have arguments vs. Willbender.

Rangers having it all too, needs some sustain nerf for the amount of damage they can do while litarly facetanking without dodging and sitting in relic of the sunless + taking to face hammer and greatsword  burst 😂. Ranger risk reward too when facetanking this and still doing more then enough damage. For that amount of facetanking they should almost do no damage 😂.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 minute ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Rangers having it all too, needs some sustain nerf for the amount of damage they can do while litarly facetanking without dodging and sitting in relic of the sunless + taking to face hammer and greatsword  burst 😂. Ranger risk reward too when facetanking this and still doing more then enough damage. For that amount of facetanking they should almost do no damage

Woah woah, hold up there cowboy.

It sounds like you're talking about "Untamed Unga Bunga mace/mace builds" specifically.

Let's be clear on that.

[arazoth.7290]

Just now, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Woah woah, hold up there cowboy.

It sounds like you're talking about "Untamed Unga Bunga mace/mace builds" specifically.

Let's be clear on that.

druid too ez.

This is for power and condi builds on both, so 2 especs build really taking it all/ dealing good chunks of damage still back, sounds fair 

[Arheundel.6451]

All this back and forth nonsensical thread...at the end of the day every single one of you will play the least effort=biggest reward build possible...while talking about "leet skill" with a grinning face. 

[arazoth.7290]

58 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

All this back and forth nonsensical thread...at the end of the day every single one of you will play the least effort=biggest reward build possible...while talking about "leet skill" with a grinning face. 

Not everyone is like that ;), I rarely play hammer vindi, only when in the mood and that's because I like hammer like I did months before the changes 😏

[Frequency.6407]

Vindi balanced for untamed

[arazoth.7290]

18 minutes ago, Frequency.6407 said:

Vindi balanced for untamed

If vindi gets thrown out of meta in non available tier, I want to see some new toxic metas coming forward more 😂

[Arheundel.6451]

1 hour ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Not everyone is like that ;), I rarely play hammer vindi, only when in the mood and that's because I like hammer like I did months before the changes 😏

I do believe that everybody must be like that these days. Maybe it's time we stop blaming the player and look at the balance overall. High sustain+dmg builds were introduced by Anet to cover up for their negligence. As a vet player since 2012, I do get extremely irritated getting insta downed by something that teleports through walls doing a 1/2s cast animation on you while CC at the same time or by something that stealthed a mile away and you can't possibly see coming, then CC/burst you down in 1/2s cast macro guided animation and people have the bloody ability to call this "skilled" gameplay......I can't imagine a new player getting downed instantly and all he sees is a shadow zipping around.

These days you can't leave respawn unless you have a build that can withstand a tactical nuke....the balance in this game is an absolute kittening joke, I find better balance in a P2W game where the devs give the tools to people to go toe to toe against paying whales 

[Arheundel.6451]

2 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Not everyone is like that ;), I rarely play hammer vindi, only when in the mood and that's because I like hammer like I did months before the changes 😏

Everyone is like that...average gw2 player wants the cake..with the cherry on top...eat the whole cake and leave you with nothing..not even the crumbles

[arazoth.7290]

11 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Everyone is like that...average gw2 player wants the cake..with the cherry on top...eat the whole cake and leave you with nothing..not even the crumbles

I appreciate your point of view, but I don't see it like that

[Flowki.7194]

On 7/4/2024 at 4:19 PM, arazoth.7290 said:

If vindi gets thrown out of meta in non available tier, I want to see some new toxic metas coming forward more 😂

Like renegade? I played more of that power build, and omg, the damage/zoning is so easy, even a DH was running out of his own traps 😜 

[arazoth.7290]

1 minute ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Like renegade? I played more of that power build, and omg, the damage/zoning is so easy, even a DH was running out of his own traps 😜 

more like herald, renegade has a bad design from start