Chaba.5410 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 5 minutes ago, Gahagan.4302 said: As long as we're on the topic though, do make sure that you smash that like button, ding that notification bell, and leave a comment to BLAST that engagement up on the algorithm, I really appreciate it. Ok, you got me. Gonna go watch your video now. 2 3 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename T.2847 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 (edited) 6 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said: Pretty sure Roy is involved in class balance. 🤔 But in any case, it's not just about class/combat balance, wvw balance between offense and defense is also involved, the numerous nerfs to defense so that the attackers can "feel good" attacking someones objective in their territory, that has all been under Roy's watch. "Making sure winning matters", yeah by getting everyone in blobs to run over those who aren't, it's all tied together. Rewards? thanks for the 0.000000001% drop rate wvw infusion. More green junk in bags to clutter bag space. Nothing this team says matters until they start listening to everyone and not just a select few chatting it up with Roy on private discord, start making the game fun again for everyone, and stop being biased to the type of players they run with. They're failing wvw, and have been for a while now. ------------------- Now I'm expecting my post to be reported for expressing my displeasure with current wvw/gw2. You come accross as pretty irritating sometimes but I agree with this one 100% : ) Current WvW state irritates me more Edited July 21 by Codename T.2847 13 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H K.4057 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 I watched the whole thing, and I really enjoyed it. One thing that stuck out to me is what they said about players being glad that ANET is at least thinking about WvW. That often gets lots in all the doom and gloom about class balance, boonballs, and the general malaise regarding WvW restructuring, but the fact that devs are clearly thinking very hard about how to improve the WvW experience is encouraging. I don't expect them to be able to please everyone, or even the majority, but I hope they will keep at it. 4 1 1 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker.3625 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 Thank you sheff for this information 4 1 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheff.4851 Posted July 21 Author Share Posted July 21 2 hours ago, H K.4057 said: I watched the whole thing, and I really enjoyed it. One thing that stuck out to me is what they said about players being glad that ANET is at least thinking about WvW. That often gets lots in all the doom and gloom about class balance, boonballs, and the general malaise regarding WvW restructuring, but the fact that devs are clearly thinking very hard about how to improve the WvW experience is encouraging. I don't expect them to be able to please everyone, or even the majority, but I hope they will keep at it. The last couple years, relatively speaking, have been very good. There was basically no communication with ArenaNet about any elements of World vs. World after the triple desert BL release, and then maybe once balance patch per year between 2017 to 2020 or so. Those were the dark times, and the volume of players that quit during them is a testament to those models not working. 4 1 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistwraithe.3106 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 (edited) 5 hours ago, Gahagan.4302 said: Friend, I went to dinner and took a walk, it's 7:30pm here. Plus, I already responded to the defense changes, by talking about how I felt that the 50% repair change was advantageous, and described my own experiences of losing fights inside of keeps as somebody who frequently fights in and around contested objectives. If you respond to something by disagreeing about it, it's still a response. Interesting discussion. I thought it was worth pointing out tho that your points about the 50% repair change and your boon-ball sometimes losing attacking fights in keeps by having people peeled off and killed while walls were closed were both missing the point that most of the rest of the community is making, namely that Anet have made it substantially harder to defend: Having to close the wall to 50% is straight up harder for the defender than 10%. You state that as compensation the wall is harder to knock down once you get it up at 50% but this is clearly an irrelevant argument - even when walls were sealed at 10% the defender could still repair to 50% if they felt it was necessary. Furthermore with the old rules they could repair 5 breaches in a row with the same amount of supply they now need to repair one breach. As for losing fights in keeps, I would be keen for you to give a direct answer as to whether your zerg loses more or less attacking fights in keeps than you used to? Because the combination of not being able to put walls up so easily, the guild keep aura being nerfed to only 25% of it's former power and meta changes which have lead to zergs often running 4 support and only a single DPS in each 5 person party mean that it's far, far harder to break an attacking zerg than it used to be. In fact the only real way to break an attacking zerg now is to have an equally organised defending zerg. And that's one of the core things people are complaining about. Anet say they want players fighting over objections but they have made it so that it is essentially pointless trying to defend a keep (even tier 3) against an organised zerg unless you happen to have your own zerg available (which doesn't happen all that often in OCX timezones, in fact on Throne of Balthazar I haven't seen ANY zergs which make up 5 person parties during the NZ evenings when I play). This didn't use to be the case - I have had some excellent fights in the past on both sides (attacking zerg and defending cloud pugs) where the fight could have gone either way. Whereas I can only think of one fight since WR started where we fought off an attacking comped zerg without having our own comped zerg, and in that instance we outnumbered them with a defending (non-comped) zerg in discord and still would have lost twice as many people as them (respawning and running back). You write logically, so I've tried to explain logically why some of your comments don't match my experience (and what others have posted on the forums). I'm genuinely curious why Roy and Anet feel that these changes will make keep fights more common when from my point of view they have clearly made it pointless to defend in many situations where there was previously some hope you could succeed in a defence. Edited July 21 by Mistwraithe.3106 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenesisII.1540 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 36 minutes ago, Gahagan.4302 said: The last couple years, relatively speaking, have been very good. There was basically no communication with ArenaNet about any elements of World vs. World after the triple desert BL release, and then maybe once balance patch per year between 2017 to 2020 or so. Those were the dark times, and the volume of players that quit during them is a testament to those models not working. Not quite. Triple desert bl came out in oct 2015 with the expansion, it killed wvw population during that time. Colin who was in charge of content left in like Jan 2016 and Mike took over and got the ball rolling on wvw releases that were stockpiling up, from april 2016 to june 2017 we had the most wvw releases and communication, alpine returned in may, then links, reward tracks, legendary gear, skirmish mode and rewards, 1u1d, 2abl 1dbl. The dark times was when they announced WR in Jan 2018 and then we lost Mckenna as wvw lead, and then things went dark as Anet was in trouble with other projects and lost funding and people. But we didn't lose balance patches. The meta may have been stale and didn't change much in those years, but when has it never been stale after a couple months anyways, this support spam meta is going on four years now... Look at these "dark times"... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/37-game-update-notes-august-8-2017/ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/10984-game-release-notes-november-7-2017/ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/15099-game-release-notes-december-12-2017/ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/19884-game-update-notes-february-6-2018/ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/24650-game-update-notes-march-27-2018/ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/28312-game-update-notes-may-8-2018/ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/33743-game-update-notes-july-10-2018/ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/37624-game-update-notes-august-28-2018/ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/40298-game-update-notes-october-2-2018/ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/44590-game-update-notes-december-11-2018/ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/49603-game-update-notes-march-5-2019/ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/52184-game-update-notes-april-23-2019/ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/57080-game-update-notes-july-16-2019/ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/61637-game-update-notes-october-1-2019/ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/64537-game-update-notes-december-3-2019/ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/67967-game-update-notes-february-25-2020/ The apocalyptic patch. 12 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenesisII.1540 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 2 minutes ago, Illustratr.9054 said: Proceeds to write book. /slowclap 2 4 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RlyOsim.2497 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 I'll listen to the full thing at work today be interesting to hear a take from inside the house cause you can see the flames from all the way down the street! 1 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joneirikb.7506 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 Nice video, enjoyed hearing the devs talk about their perspectives. Thanks for posting. 1 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 8 hours ago, Gahagan.4302 said: I think the first response in the thread is a pretty good example of non-constructive feedback. It is: The points in this post are that there are "scoring changes", "stingy rewards", "nerfing things that touch a boonball", "recycling players", and "sucking the life out of WvW". Those aren't constructive, they are just complaints. An example of constructive feedback would be, here are the specific parts of the scoring changes that are bad. Here are the specific rewards that are undertuned. Here are the specific nerfs that enable boonballs, while hurting other playstyles. Et cetera, et cetera. These point out specific issues that are actionable and can be worked on. I'm sure people have written what they think are PhD theses on balance in this forum. Unfortunately, a PhD is not just a long collection of words that all happen to be in the same place and about the same topic. It's a structured argument with specific examples, arguments, and solutions, not general, handwave, general statements. That is feedback, you find it a complaint because you disagree with it. They are providing feedback which is the beginning of a further conversation. So let me give you an example. "Oh thank you customer for the feedback. I understand. Why do you feel the rewards are stingy? I feel this because of this" "Oh and what do you dislike about boonballs? Oh I think this because of this" etc. Feedback is feedback its not "good" or "bad". How someone responds to it, how they communicate and ask follow up questions is important for communication and clarification. No one is going to be able to have some psychic understanding of another person's feelings without communication. Even your "specifics" wouldn't be specific enough because you wouldn't know the details of why someone felt that way and neither would the devs until you speak with them. You are trying to say all feedback would have some instant psychic understanding of what someone feels or what a dev wouldn't understand, no that comes from communication and clarification, like how daily conversations work. No they really have written PHD thesis with structured arguments and solutions. It is clear you don't read those feedback threads or maybe you just ignore them. 13 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 9 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said: Constructive feedback requires an understanding of the "system status" now, you have to know where you are before you can suggest where you are going, how things function, know the material before taking the test, like knowing what the WvW team does or watching the video before commenting. Constructive feedback prevents a lot of backtracking over concepts people already or should already know. Or I should rather call it high quality constructive feedback. It also requires a person to acknowledge the "gives", like when Anet does implement changes that players asked for, and not just focusing on the negative all the time. Constructive feedback is someone expressing their thoughts and feelings about a subject. You, like Sheff, think somehow feedback is going to instantly materialize in one post all the experiences and concerns of someone and subsequently the experiences and concerns of the other person. That is called communication. It requires clarification and understanding. It requires follow up questions and open dialogue. What you are describing is a process of communication. Which is lacking greatly. 14 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 8 hours ago, Gahagan.4302 said: If I wanted to advertise the stream, I'd have posted about it before I held it, so that I could get even more ad revenue. And unless you have an adblocker installed, you'll note that monetization on this video (and all other videos on my channel) is off. That aside, I think that's a deliberate misrepresentation of the conversation that we're having here. I think you deliberately misrepresented his sentence and post. Which could be clarified through communication. Advertising a stream doesn't mean just money, it means advertising your ideas as well. None of us are paid money to be on these forums either, but we come to express and share ideas. So lets focus on sharing ideas. 10 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheff.4851 Posted July 21 Author Share Posted July 21 13 minutes ago, MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said: I think you deliberately misrepresented his sentence and post. Which could be clarified through communication. Advertising a stream doesn't mean just money, it means advertising your ideas as well. None of us are paid money to be on these forums either, but we come to express and share ideas. So lets focus on sharing ideas. I'm looking forward to that part! I'll start -- I think there's a number of ideas shared in the video that are interesting, for example, establishing a shared set of goals for players to work towards, or the challenges of balancing a gamemode around different player expectations, goals, and demands. What are some of the ideas that you noticed? 1 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 10 minutes ago, Sheff.4851 said: the challenges of balancing a gamemode around different player expectations, goals, and demands. What are some of the ideas that you noticed? Excellent! And I think those challenges could be overcome with more communication with the community. That would include having open and honest dialogues with the community through posting on the forum and replying to others, reddit threads, open Q&A sessions on discord etc. I think increasing these forms of communication with the community would help bridge the gap in understanding and create a more cohesive understanding of balancing and system changes. 7 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheff.4851 Posted July 21 Author Share Posted July 21 4 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said: Not quite. Triple desert bl came out in oct 2015 with the expansion, it killed wvw population during that time. Colin who was in charge of content left in like Jan 2016 and Mike took over and got the ball rolling on wvw releases that were stockpiling up, from april 2016 to june 2017 we had the most wvw releases and communication, alpine returned in may, then links, reward tracks, legendary gear, skirmish mode and rewards, 1u1d, 2abl 1dbl. The dark times was when they announced WR in Jan 2018 and then we lost Mckenna as wvw lead, and then things went dark as Anet was in trouble with other projects and lost funding and people. But we didn't lose balance patches. The meta may have been stale and didn't change much in those years, but when has it never been stale after a couple months anyways, this support spam meta is going on four years now... Look at these "dark times"... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/37-game-update-notes-august-8-2017/ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/10984-game-release-notes-november-7-2017/ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/15099-game-release-notes-december-12-2017/ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/19884-game-update-notes-february-6-2018/ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/24650-game-update-notes-march-27-2018/ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/28312-game-update-notes-may-8-2018/ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/33743-game-update-notes-july-10-2018/ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/37624-game-update-notes-august-28-2018/ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/40298-game-update-notes-october-2-2018/ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/44590-game-update-notes-december-11-2018/ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/49603-game-update-notes-march-5-2019/ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/52184-game-update-notes-april-23-2019/ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/57080-game-update-notes-july-16-2019/ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/61637-game-update-notes-october-1-2019/ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/64537-game-update-notes-december-3-2019/ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/67967-game-update-notes-february-25-2020/ The apocalyptic patch. This is a really useful collection of information, I appreciate you organizing it. I'll download them and skim them for my flight this morning. 1 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheff.4851 Posted July 21 Author Share Posted July 21 Just now, MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said: Excellent! And I think those challenges could be overcome with more communication with the community. That would include having open and honest dialogues with the community through posting on the forum and replying to others, reddit threads, open Q&A sessions on discord etc. I think increasing these forms of communication with the community would help bridge the gap in understanding and create a more cohesive understanding of balancing and system changes. You mean like in a stream where we have some developers on and field questions from chat for an hour or so? Maybe I *should* have advertised it here ahead of time. It seems like it would have been helpful for people to know it was happening. I'm not very good at self-promotion, I'll work on that for the next one. 2 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 Just now, Sheff.4851 said: You mean like in a stream where we have some developers on and field questions from chat for an hour or so? Maybe I *should* have advertised it here ahead of time. It seems like it would have been helpful for people to know it was happening. I'm not very good at self-promotion, I'll work on that for the next one. Yes which is why I said the words "more" and "increasing". It is a start. But a limited one at best. The dialogue needs to include more and larger groups of people. Not an ArenaNet partner and their audience. If they are confident in their ideas, create larger Q&A sessions and create Reddit threads and create engaging discussions on the forums. That is what I mean. 11 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 (edited) 7 hours ago, MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said: Constructive feedback is someone expressing their thoughts and feelings about a subject. You, like Sheff, think somehow feedback is going to instantly materialize in one post all the experiences and concerns of someone and subsequently the experiences and concerns of the other person. That is called communication. It requires clarification and understanding. It requires follow up questions and open dialogue. What you are describing is a process of communication. Which is lacking greatly. And what you are describing is impractical at scale for a gaming company. This isn't a manufacturing company with field reps across the globe that visit customers' places of business and have such conversations about their high priced equipment installations. It's an entirely different kind of full time job given the large number of customers and not one that "devs" here were hired for. Instead we get side conversations with one or two people like what Sheff got or the odd forum post from a dev asking a single other forum user a question for clarification. But apparently that isn't good enough and is considered "private" or "secretive" somehow. A more practical method is surveys. Well written surveys help guide players into materializing their feedback into something more constructive. That's something Anet has done in the past, but still is not the kind of conversation you are describing. On this forum though, it's totally on you as a writer to materialize your feedback into something constructive before responses get lost in the crowd. Forums with threaded discussions are ironically not good platforms for large scale feedback. Edited July 21 by Chaba.5410 3 2 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauis.2768 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 All this talk about communication, feedback, engaging the community blah blah. Thread is one day old. Dev presence in this thread? Zero. Whether or not the dev thinks the feedback is constructive or just another complain. If there is no followup question, there's no communication there. Said poster could be mad and just made a rant. Doesn't mean that you don't even TRY to ask for more information. While it is difficult and kitten near impossible to answer every single thread or question. The fact that there Z-E-R-O dev presence in the forums speaks volume. 12 2 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troubadour.6397 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 (edited) 19 hours ago, Sheff.4851 said: There aren't really public tags around these days. and why do you think that is hmm? none of the changes encourage casuals to stay and become regulars and this restructure solely caters to elite blob style guilds. Maybe instead of just shrugging, you could be pushing the team on how that is a terrible idea and ask for changes , cause they sure as kitten don't listen to a word we say on here lol Edited July 21 by Troubadour.6397 12 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troubadour.6397 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 (edited) 7 hours ago, Sheff.4851 said: I think there's a number of ideas shared in the video that are interesting, for example, establishing a shared set of goals for players to work towards, or the challenges of balancing a gamemode around different player expectations, goals, and demands. What are some of the ideas that you noticed? That is not an 'idea' Sheff, thats corporate kitten lingo, its empty and does not clarify or explain an actual solution or idea does it? ' a shared set of goals' honestly i can imagine my Government coming out with the same aimless PR rubbish. How do they plan to ensure people who don't no life WvW in the top guilds get a fun experience?, or how to get and keep new blood? or how to not ensure people leave because anyone playing outside of prime, or not in a comped discord squad is to an extent excluded? Edited July 21 by Troubadour.6397 17 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos God.1639 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 (edited) 21 hours ago, MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said: That is feedback, you find it a complaint because you disagree with it. They are providing feedback which is the beginning of a further conversation. So let me give you an example. "Oh thank you customer for the feedback. I understand. Why do you feel the rewards are stingy? I feel this because of this" "Oh and what do you dislike about boonballs? Oh I think this because of this" etc. Feedback is feedback its not "good" or "bad". How someone responds to it, how they communicate and ask follow up questions is important for communication and clarification. No one is going to be able to have some psychic understanding of another person's feelings without communication. Even your "specifics" wouldn't be specific enough because you wouldn't know the details of why someone felt that way and neither would the devs until you speak with them. You are trying to say all feedback would have some instant psychic understanding of what someone feels or what a dev wouldn't understand, no that comes from communication and clarification, like how daily conversations work. No they really have written PHD thesis with structured arguments and solutions. It is clear you don't read those feedback threads or maybe you just ignore them. I wouldn't call it constructive feedback either, because the person is being emotional. emotions are like double edge sword. if you want to be taken seriously, then be serious. if devs don't agree with you, then you shouldn't get upset or emotional either. what I would consider constructive feedback is prosocial behavior and not destructive behavior. some of the posts here on the forums could be considered as gaslighting, whether it was intentional or not. Edited July 22 by Chaos God.1639 3 2 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troubadour.6397 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 3 minutes ago, Chaos God.1639 said: some of the posts here on the forums could be considered as gaslighting, whether it was intentional or not. You clearly do not understand what gaslighting is. Having emotion in a response is not 'gaslighting' A streamer rocking up to the official forums and telling people their years of well formulated but ignored efforts, are not contructive could well be though. 14 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 2 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said: And what you are describing is impractical at scale for a gaming company. It is completely practical lots of other games and communities have active discussions with developers in many formats and ways with many groups of people. ArenaNet does not. " Instead we get side conversations with one or two people like what Sheff got or the odd forum post from a dev asking a single other forum user a question for clarification. But apparently that isn't good enough and is considered "private" or "secretive" somehow." Yeah, that isn't good enough. "A more practical method is surveys. Well written surveys help guide players into materializing their feedback into something more constructive. That's something Anet has done in the past, but still is not the kind of conversation you are describing" A practical method would be to engage the community more in forum discussions, Q&A sessions, reddit threads, etc. etc. The fact you think this is some impossible task is completely surprising to me. There are MANY gaming companies and developers that do this frequently. 9 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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