What's point of Alliance if it's like fixed server

[Sheff.4851]

1 minute ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

I don't understand a word of English so I can't help you with reference to an audio interview. unless it is subtitled to be translated. In any case, if the only technological solution that development is able to follow to solve the problem of out-of-control transfers is called WR, then the same development will be forced to add an extra work wagon if it wants WVW to still find a meaning/purpose to be played.  At the moment it is a meaningless mode. A team-based PvP mode where teams are no longer the reference for anyone, makes no sense. Choosing WR as a solution is like choosing to redesign this mode. unless you deliberately want to leave it in this meaningless state.

The video has YouTube-generated captions. It may struggle with specific Guild Wars 2 phrases, but it should be pretty good overall. I'm confused by your post though. You said that out of control transfers were bad, and I agree. But now you say that, because out of control transfers have been fixed, WvW doesn't have a meaning/purpose for being played. Are you suggesting that out of control transfers were the reason for playing WvW? Or that WvW never had a purpose, and the out of control transfers didn't matter in the first place?

[Mabi black.1824]

20 minutes ago, Sheff.4851 said:

The video has YouTube-generated captions. It may struggle with specific Guild Wars 2 phrases, but it should be pretty good overall. I'm confused by your post though. You said that out of control transfers were bad, and I agree. But now you say that, because out of control transfers have been fixed, WvW doesn't have a meaning/purpose for being played. Are you suggesting that out of control transfers were the reason for playing WvW? Or that WvW never had a purpose, and the out of control transfers didn't matter in the first place?

We didn't really understand each other. Transfers are a problem. The solution of WR are another completely different problem. they are only related by the fact that you use one to correct the other. too bad that while you do this you are making the server container meaningless. When I play I don't have the perception that it is my server. because you keep doing it every 4 weeks with different people. In the same way, if you attack my garry, I don't have the perception of having to defend him, because I don't feel like mine. the score is still referred to a server, but I don't perceive it as mine, it doesn't have a season, it doesn't make sense to compare it with another server etc etc. Useless team mode, when the team comparison is useless.

This is the corner where they put WVW right now. If you want to move it from there you have to finish the work you started, redesign the purpose of this mode, including scoring. Before, it was reported to the server, now you will have to report it to the guilds. Or leave WVW there in the corner forever.

Edited July 24 by Mabi black.1824

[Riba.3271]

18 hours ago, Atoclone.4810 said:

On 7/23/2024 at 10:21 PM, Riba.3271 said:

 

Mono servers worked great til it didn't. For example each server starts with 50 players, everything's great. 5 people from server a quit the game, not you've got imbalanced servers, the longer this goes on with me players joining their friends servers and others leaving the game. 10 years down the line and you've got a big old unbalanced mess.

This argument fails because:

- No system could work with 9 tiers and current playerbase, Monoservers had 9 tiers and about same playerbase when it started failing.

- Biggest flaws around time of monoservers was glicko matchmaking, preventing servers from climbing/dropping tiers

- The transfer system around monoservers didn't prevent people transferring to stacked server since they were open at night

So while monoservers might seem like the guilty side with superficial inspection, there were actually 3 much bigger beasts at the time destroying WvW.

Edited July 25 by Riba.3271

[SweetPotato.7456]

On 7/21/2024 at 8:41 PM, vivienkid.7241 said:

Not sure if this is correct, but I thought the alliance would be randomly matching guild registered every period, which may possibly decrease of the influence of unbalanced match and dead wvw server. But now it kinda feels like old-fixed-server-style for me, just you can play with your guild, and still dead wvw servers and one side farming, correct me if I understand aliance incorrectly.

If you do not want to be fixed, join a different alliance every time SHARDS are reshuffle

[Dinas Dragonbane.2978]

All monoservers needed was to remove the cap of players per server, but make transfer cost similar to converting gold to gems. Each time someone transfers to BG for example, the price goes up, if people transfer off that server, the price to transfer to it would go down. This would make it cheaper to go to unpopulated servers, and very expensive to overpopulated ones. Queues would still be a way to make the ones trying to overstack penalized, not to mention ever rising costs for bandwagons,  but it would also mean super cheap costs to the lowest pop servers, so guilds and players could move to these for cheaper than they used to, and bandwagons could still move together to "play with their friends", but it would cost much more with greater queue potential, but everyone could still get what they want, not to mention anet getting more for these transfers. It is just a way to use economics as a potential source for balance.

[Sheff.4851]

53 minutes ago, Dinas Dragonbane.2978 said:

All monoservers needed was to remove the cap of players per server, but make transfer cost similar to converting gold to gems. Each time someone transfers to BG for example, the price goes up, if people transfer off that server, the price to transfer to it would go down. This would make it cheaper to go to unpopulated servers, and very expensive to overpopulated ones. Queues would still be a way to make the ones trying to overstack penalized, not to mention ever rising costs for bandwagons,  but it would also mean super cheap costs to the lowest pop servers, so guilds and players could move to these for cheaper than they used to, and bandwagons could still move together to "play with their friends", but it would cost much more with greater queue potential, but everyone could still get what they want, not to mention anet getting more for these transfers. It is just a way to use economics as a potential source for balance.

This would convert World vs. World into a pay to win haven, where the only people who are able to transfer to top servers are the ones who can either afford the transfer, or are purchased by server leaders like Xushin and GuildMM, who are at gold cap from farming legendaries via Gifts of Battle.

If this change actually existed, it would be despised by a large portion of the community, and T1 would be called the pay to win server at every opportunity.

[Dinas Dragonbane.2978]

5 minutes ago, Sheff.4851 said:

This would convert World vs. World into a pay to win haven, where the only people who are able to transfer to top servers are the ones who can either afford the transfer, or are purchased by server leaders like Xushin and GuildMM, who are at gold cap from farming legendaries via Gifts of Battle.

If this change actually existed, it would be despised by a large portion of the community, and T1 would be called the pay to win server at every opportunity.

What would they win... what exactly? This was another reason tournaments burned out more than the winners, the ones KNOWING they would lose kinda just didn't care, ironically echoing the general feel of matchups today. 

The way victory points just changed a lot of these bigger servers will be pushed upwards more than they previously were, which is what my transfer description would have done anyway, pay to win, zerg to win, there isn't much difference in the outcome, just what you put into it, which parallels organize to win, you get what you put in it. 

Strong servers should be paired against strong servers, many need to stop fighting the score to drop down, or they need to make eotm available to all with team swap eligibility, so the biggest guilds can eternally meet there to fight forever for their content. If access to fighting forever like that isn't what these guilds want, what the hell are they doing?

[Sheff.4851]

33 minutes ago, Dinas Dragonbane.2978 said:

What would they win... what exactly? This was another reason tournaments burned out more than the winners, the ones KNOWING they would lose kinda just didn't care, ironically echoing the general feel of matchups today. 

The way victory points just changed a lot of these bigger servers will be pushed upwards more than they previously were, which is what my transfer description would have done anyway, pay to win, zerg to win, there isn't much difference in the outcome, just what you put into it, which parallels organize to win, you get what you put in it. 

Strong servers should be paired against strong servers, many need to stop fighting the score to drop down, or they need to make eotm available to all with team swap eligibility, so the biggest guilds can eternally meet there to fight forever for their content. If access to fighting forever like that isn't what these guilds want, what the hell are they doing?

Nobody's won anything in WvW since Seasons, but it hasn't stopped people bandwagoning servers basically up until the release of the Restructuring system. When you're developing competitive balance systems, you can't just balance around philosophy. You have to balance around actual player behavior. And actual player behavior is that many players care deeply about being in T1, to the extent that many server leadership communities would pool together gold to pay for transfers to get good guilds to come to their server for the sake of server pride and identity. Because players do it, it becomes something you have to balance around, no matter what the player base's rationale is for it or what your design philosophy says about what the motivations for winning should be or not.

These guilds don't want access to fighting forever. They want to have fights that are fun. They want to scout where enemies are going, strategize and ambush them, fight in weird terrain, that sort of thing. And fighting in EotM isn't fun. That's about all it boils down to.

[Mabi black.1824]

39 minutes ago, Sheff.4851 said:

Nobody's won anything in WvW since Seasons, but it hasn't stopped people bandwagoning servers basically up until the release of the Restructuring system.

Given that Anet should provide servers that are similar to each other and check them over time to make sure that this similarity is always acceptable, for example through controlled/booked transfers you skip the server if on the other side someone has booked to leave that server, rather than reducing the limit of the maps even temporarily by communicating it openly via game mail,  with the precise purpose of stimulating the player's redistribution or you will be in the queue for hours, in short, if Anet takes an active attitude worrying about the balance and stops being passive, at that point mono server or connected servers makes no difference.

What is fundamental, in reference to your words that I quoted, is to provide the player with a flag, a name, he must be able to identify, feel part of it, team spirit, participation, shared action, let the servers express themselves differently, that they take on different characters and characteristics, their diversity is only the symptom of a good state of health of WVW,   like their adversity it is even more a good symptom of a good state of health.only at that point the concept of first in the standings or victory will be outdated . Because what matters is participating with your server, for better or for worse. The perception of 'your' team is important because it takes you directly to the concept of purpose/motivation.. At least until we talk about a team game.

Edited July 25 by Mabi black.1824

[MedievalThings.5417]

21 hours ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

I don't understand a word of English so I can't help you with reference to an audio interview. unless it is subtitled to be translated. In any case, if the only technological solution that development is able to follow to solve the problem of out-of-control transfers is called WR, then the same development will be forced to add an extra work wagon if it wants WVW to still find a meaning/purpose to be played.  At the moment it is a meaningless mode. A team-based PvP mode where teams are no longer the reference for anyone, makes no sense. Choosing WR as a solution is like choosing to redesign this mode. unless you deliberately want to leave it in this meaningless state.

Which is why you see some guilds just not defending.  Chat - hey guys can you bring your 30 from Overlook, we have 25 taking our T3 keep?  Nope, guilds would rather PvDoor and take the keep they are on and then backcap their own keep, because it's worth more for them to do it that way.  And, it doesn't matter to them because when they are done ktraining what they want, they all log out anyway.  They have changed what was people playing for server pride to people only playing for bags or ranks, essentially everyone just playing for themselves.  I wish they would do the same things with boons.  Might as well just reshuffle every week.

[Sheff.4851]

18 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

Given that Anet should provide servers that are similar to each other and check them over time to make sure that this similarity is always acceptable, for example through controlled/booked transfers you skip the server if on the other side someone has booked to leave that server, rather than reducing the limit of the maps even temporarily by communicating it openly via game mail,  with the precise purpose of stimulating the player's redistribution or you will be in the queue for hours, in short, if Anet takes an active attitude worrying about the balance and stops being passive, at that point mono server or connected servers makes no difference.

What is fundamental, in reference to your words that I quoted, is to provide the player with a flag, a name, he must be able to identify, feel part of it, team spirit, participation, shared action, let the servers express themselves differently, that they take on different characters and characteristics, their diversity is only the symptom of a good state of health of WVW,   like their adversity it is even more a good symptom of a good state of health.only at that point the concept of first in the standings or victory will be outdated . Because what matters is participating with your server, for better or for worse. The perception of 'your' team is important because it takes you directly to the concept of purpose/motivation.. At least until we talk about a team game.

You have two teams. One is your server. The names of the servers have changed, and the people on the servers are shuffled more frequently, but you still have a flag, a name, that you can rally players under. Lagula's Kraal is no different than Sea of Sorrows. Old servers did not have fixed populations, either. Guilds transferred on and off. New players joined, while old players quit. The server system was always dynamic and in a state of change.

Your second team is your guild. This is the group of players that you carry with you from matchup to matchup, so that you have a shared sense of purpose and motivation that crosses matchups, tiers, and team shuffles. Choosing a guild to join is optional, of course, but it's a choice that players can make in order to get a greater sense of community, purpose, and motivation out of the game mode. If this is something that you want as a player, I strongly suggest either joining a guild full of people that you like, or making your own guild and inviting people that you like to it. Restructuring gives you the ability to do this without having to pay for expensive transfers for each of your friends.

[Mabi black.1824]

27 minutes ago, Sheff.4851 said:

You have two teams. One is your server. The names of the servers have changed, and the people on the servers are shuffled more frequently, but you still have a flag, a name, that you can rally players under. Lagula's Kraal is no different than Sea of Sorrows. Old servers did not have fixed populations, either. Guilds transferred on and off. New players joined, while old players quit. The server system was always dynamic and in a state of change.

Your second team is your guild. This is the group of players that you carry with you from matchup to matchup, so that you have a shared sense of purpose and motivation that crosses matchups, tiers, and team shuffles. Choosing a guild to join is optional, of course, but it's a choice that players can make in order to get a greater sense of community, purpose, and motivation out of the game mode. If this is something that you want as a player, I strongly suggest either joining a guild full of people that you like, or making your own guild and inviting people that you like to it. Restructuring gives you the ability to do this without having to pay for expensive transfers for each of your friends.

To get this you need to complete the work they started with WR, if you want the new reference in this game to be reduced to the guild and no longer the server, that's fine, but please create the conditions so that the  player can get for real. If that's the case, then you need to fix the old game design with the new mechanics. The old design revolves around the server. including the score and the ranking. The new design must revolve around the guild . Also since we are talking about a PvP mode, do you want to allow me the confrontation / competition? Well then you also need to think about how my 10-man guild gets a credible comparison with your 100-man guild. Once this is done, you will have returned a purpose to this game mode.

Then, at that point, you will only have to solve the last problem, that of involving all the players in this community. We talk about individual players as well as small groups of 5 friends as well as guilds of 100 men. Because before, everyone, no one excluded could feel involved in a server-based competition. Now I have no idea how you can fix it with a guild-based competition. unless you want this mode to only refer to 500-man guilds/alliances. and all the others are just the filler needed to get the famous ''epic battles''

Edited July 25 by Mabi black.1824

[Hesione.9412]

5 hours ago, Sheff.4851 said:

This would convert World vs. World into a pay to win haven, where the only people who are able to transfer to top servers are the ones who can either afford the transfer, or are purchased by server leaders like Xushin and GuildMM, who are at gold cap from farming legendaries via Gifts of Battle.

If this change actually existed, it would be despised by a large portion of the community, and T1 would be called the pay to win server at every opportunity.

Alliances are doing this already, with the bonus that the players don't have to spend gems. Yay. /s

[devastoscz.9851]

4 hours ago, Sheff.4851 said:

You have two teams. One is your server. The names of the servers have changed, and the people on the servers are shuffled more frequently, but you still have a flag, a name, that you can rally players under. Lagula's Kraal is no different than Sea of Sorrows. Old servers did not have fixed populations, either. Guilds transferred on and off. New players joined, while old players quit. The server system was always dynamic and in a state of change.

Your second team is your guild. This is the group of players that you carry with you from matchup to matchup, so that you have a shared sense of purpose and motivation that crosses matchups, tiers, and team shuffles. Choosing a guild to join is optional, of course, but it's a choice that players can make in order to get a greater sense of community, purpose, and motivation out of the game mode. If this is something that you want as a player, I strongly suggest either joining a guild full of people that you like, or making your own guild and inviting people that you like to it. Restructuring gives you the ability to do this without having to pay for expensive transfers for each of your friends.

THIS. You've done got hit bullseye with this comment. If you need a sense of identity and belonging, join a guild or make your own. Personally I don't give a rat's kitten what my server name is called, I want to play win or lose, with people I care about. That's the whole purpose of the initial "alliance" system. When that failed horribly due to lack of foresight and 500 man cap, they gave us a new guild slot as a placeholder for said "Alliances".

That 6th guild slot is your "WvW server" now, 500 people tops. You select THAT as your WvW guild to make sure you're paired with your community for the next match up. Whether your play with that guild tag on or another is your decision. My "Server" now consists of 4 guilds, my nuclear guild consists of 50 members total. We run around 20-25 on raid nights. If we need help fighting a 60 man blob, we go to the "Server" guild chat and ask for assistance from people that we have a social contract with and like minded philosophies.

I play with 20 people I like every raid, giving me a sense of identity and purpose . And if we need help, there's another 20 that can come and help. It works. Try it out.

[Mabi black.1824]

1 hour ago, devastoscz.9851 said:

THIS. You've done got hit bullseye with this comment. If you need a sense of identity and belonging, join a guild or make your own. Personally I don't give a rat's kitten what my server name is called, I want to play win or lose, with people I care about. That's the whole purpose of the initial "alliance" system. When that failed horribly due to lack of foresight and 500 man cap, they gave us a new guild slot as a placeholder for said "Alliances".

That 6th guild slot is your "WvW server" now, 500 people tops. You select THAT as your WvW guild to make sure you're paired with your community for the next match up. Whether your play with that guild tag on or another is your decision. My "Server" now consists of 4 guilds, my nuclear guild consists of 50 members total. We run around 20-25 on raid nights. If we need help fighting a 60 man blob, we go to the "Server" guild chat and ask for assistance from people that we have a social contract with and like minded philosophies.

I play with 20 people I like every raid, giving me a sense of identity and purpose . And if we need help, there's another 20 that can come and help. It works. Try it out.

I don't doubt that this is the whole purpose of WR/Alliance, let's make the server useless and focus on the guild. But with that in mind and keeping the design of WVW as it was originally designed, you're still denying me a purpose. This has always been a team/server game. Now you choose to put a patch in reference to the balance with the consequence of making the server useless because everyone will have to revolve around the guild. Fine.Then update the old game design as well. because even if you are hitting the mark I continue to see/perceive a useless team/server game, at the precise moment you make a team/server useless. When you do a half-hearted job, trust me that's how it works.

[devastoscz.9851]

1 hour ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

I don't doubt that this is the whole purpose of WR/Alliance, let's make the server useless and focus on the guild. But with that in mind and keeping the design of WVW as it was originally designed, you're still denying me a purpose. This has always been a team/server game. Now you choose to put a patch in reference to the balance with the consequence of making the server useless because everyone will have to revolve around the guild. Fine.Then update the old game design as well. because even if you are hitting the mark I continue to see/perceive a useless team/server game, at the precise moment you make a team/server useless. When you do a half-hearted job, trust me that's how it works.

But the team/server isn't useless, its a capsule to face other capsules, and a way to somewhat provide a level of population balance without disrupting a live service. The fact that people dislike that their capsule isn't named the same every month seems stubbornly short sighted. If your problem is community, you have the tools to establish them, including naming them. You've been given absolute agency with a 500 man cap. I've been playing WvW for years and I don't know 500 players that I would individually want in my team. Hell, I would have trouble getting to 50.

WvW's resilience is in the player's ability to form bonds and groups, facing off against other groups and generating replayable, competitive content. All of a sudden when players are given free reign to choose precisely who they want to play with, they're too scared or too lazy to make that decision for themselves. "Please, do anything but make me responsible for my own enjoyment." It's ridiculous.

Edited July 26 by devastoscz.9851
grammar

[Chief.7143]

There is no way the dev's can outsmart or algorithm the "skilled" players who like to club seals.

[Kozumi.5816]

I'm literally grouped with the same guilds I had pre-alliances and also against the same players I can't pvp against because my team has zero commanders(just like pre-alliances).

Makes no sense, awful game mode.

Edited July 26 by Kozumi.5816

[Mabi black.1824]

8 hours ago, devastoscz.9851 said:

If your problem is community

I have zero community issues, I'm in a guild of 200+ players ( with a bit of changes going on as a result of WR ) at the next WR we'll join other friends as 250 players. While I have a serious purpose/motivation problem like playing a useless team game when the teams don't matter to anyone, please read the words I wrote above carefully. Guild, community, friendships, have nothing to do with what I have written to you. 

Let's talk about participation/comparison of a team PvP game. and I have serious difficulties in participating. Attack and defense. I don't perceive the team as my team, I don't perceive the team spirit, I can't feel that that tower is my tower etc etc. This is as of 6 weeks ago now. and I assume it will be the same for the next 4 weeks as well. If the server reference is outdated, the old design is also outdated. It's like a job done halfway. Now you need a Desig that puts the guild at the center, capable of involving the players. The comparison, the participation, the points you assign, the ranking must refer to the guild. The server can no longer play this role. Now it's really just a capsule.

Edited July 26 by Mabi black.1824

[devastoscz.9851]

4 hours ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

I have zero community issues, I'm in a guild of 200+ players ( with a bit of changes going on as a result of WR ) at the next WR we'll join other friends as 250 players. While I have a serious purpose/motivation problem like playing a useless team game when the teams don't matter to anyone, please read the words I wrote above carefully. Guild, community, friendships, have nothing to do with what I have written to you. 

Let's talk about participation/comparison of a team PvP game. and I have serious difficulties in participating. Attack and defense. I don't perceive the team as my team, I don't perceive the team spirit, I can't feel that that tower is my tower etc etc. This is as of 6 weeks ago now. and I assume it will be the same for the next 4 weeks as well. If the server reference is outdated, the old design is also outdated. It's like a job done halfway. Now you need a Desig that puts the guild at the center, capable of involving the players. The comparison, the participation, the points you assign, the ranking must refer to the guild. The server can no longer play this role. Now it's really just a capsule.

Well, the system can't really help how you 'feel'. If you don't want to fight and win for your 200-250 man guild now, then I don't see how scoring becoming guild based is gonna change that. Sure they can drop a leaderboard on there, but you already have that in GW2mists if you need it that bad. You can compare your guild's kitten size all day there looking at charts and stats.

I'm really not as complicated as you are, I like to spend time with my friends and fight alongside them. I don't need to feel like the game needs to provide a sense of belonging beyond that or an incentive to 'try' other than to be there for my guild.

As it stands, winning means nothing anyway, so who cares about the freaking tower. As long as they don't take waypointed structures, I have no feelings towards any structure. Aside from that, just show me where the next pack of red boys is, so we can shred it. And that's not gonna change until WvW gets rewards that make 'winning' matter. And even then I probably won't care.