Saiyan.1704 Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 This is the algorithm according to the wiki. Basically it tries to reduce the number of classes on a given team. So if you go, for example, duo thief, you're going to have a very big chance of getting a thief on the opposite team. Not just that, the chances of your Main spec being on your own team is much higher for obvious reasons. If you main Necro and want a necro on your team, duoQ with a partner and run double engi. You'll get a necro on your team and no Engi's ever unless they swap to Engi right when their queue pops (so it looks like they entered the match as that spec). That's just one part of matchmaking abuse. The second is GuildTeam. If you set a GuildTeam (one of the tabs in your guild), there's a 50% chance that you'll go against a guild team. Sync queue with 4 people and you're guaranteed to have 3 of them in the same game, mix and matched amongst the two teams. Queue after hours and matchmaking will basically make this a guarantee. This pvp algorithm is at the heart of mmr abuse. Make a number of accounts, sync queue to boost an account, rinse and repeat. This has been said before but for one reason or another people don't seem to care about what's in this Glicko algorithm. The community wants to remove duoQ but the community don't talk about the pvp algorithm and how players are abusing the matchmaking system by simply using what Anet put in place. This is the top 25 and top 100 of NA and EU mini game And yes, not every single PvP player that queues, are part of this minigame system that the top 25 are playing. 5 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mne Malo Tebya.2965 Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 The algorithm is fine. You just need to get rid of swapping classes after accepting a match and being able to duoq with any rating span 2 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asuran.5469 Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 3 hours ago, Mne Malo Tebya.2965 said: The algorithm is fine. You just need to get rid of swapping classes after accepting a match and being able to duoq with any rating span no it is not gotta go out of way and do dumb stuff to keep up not even fun now 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mne Malo Tebya.2965 Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 6 hours ago, Asuran.5469 said: no it is not explain whats not right 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 (edited) 2 hours ago, Mne Malo Tebya.2965 said: explain whats not right The real question is: Do you know enough about the algorithm and how it is exploited, to even give us a rational stance & explanation as to why there isn't anything wrong it? Because that would be something new for all of us to read. The vast majority of the player base has already read all about what people feel is wrong with this algorithm. Several hundreds if not thousands of threads have been written on this very topic over the past 10+ years. They well describe & explain the blatant exploitable issues within glicko's implementation. Nothing that guy could respond to you with would be anything we haven't heard before. Take a scroll back through the forum if you want to read all about it. Edited July 22 by Trevor Boyer.6524 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mne Malo Tebya.2965 Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 (edited) 58 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said: how it is exploited besides being able to swap classes and duoq with any rating span(which i already mentioned), what other exploits are there? Edited July 22 by Mne Malo Tebya.2965 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KurtLittleJesus.8139 Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 14 hours ago, Mne Malo Tebya.2965 said: besides being able to swap classes and duoq with any rating span(which i already mentioned), what other exploits are there? duo q makes extremely easier to q sync, even if we didn't have class swapping you could still q as double vindicator (strongest meta class) and the ppl you want to play against also qs with double vindi, you're very likely to be matched against each other if you playing offhour, even if the boosting duo is like 1600 and the throwing duo is 1200. Not to mention this team thing I wasn't aware of, that will prolly make sure you all placed in the same match. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mne Malo Tebya.2965 Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 32 minutes ago, KurtLittleJesus.8139 said: you could still q as double vindicator (strongest meta class) and the ppl you want to play against also qs with double vindi You dont need duoq to get into each others matches with a population this low. And if so that means you will have 4 revs in a match both duoq'ed. It doesnt take much effort to notice whats going on there and they will get banned. Also you cant really avoid wintrading with a new algorithm. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KurtLittleJesus.8139 Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 25 minutes ago, Mne Malo Tebya.2965 said: You dont need duoq to get into each others matches with a population this low. And if so that means you will have 4 revs in a match both duoq'ed. It doesnt take much effort to notice whats going on there and they will get banned. Also you cant really avoid wintrading with a new algorithm. haha, dude the last ones just got banned cuz they got caught on camera. Yes, you can't stop wintrading, but solo q you have much less control over the match outcome, you could still lose your 6v4. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mne Malo Tebya.2965 Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 7 minutes ago, KurtLittleJesus.8139 said: but solo q you have much less control wintrading is actually easier with only soloq 1 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endo.1652 Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 50 minutes ago, Mne Malo Tebya.2965 said: wintrading is actually easier with only soloq Explain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KurtLittleJesus.8139 Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 6 minutes ago, Endo.1652 said: Explain I wouldn't mind, he's clearly trolling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 1 hour ago, Mne Malo Tebya.2965 said: wintrading is actually easier with only soloq 1 hour ago, Endo.1652 said: Explain 54 minutes ago, KurtLittleJesus.8139 said: I wouldn't mind, he's clearly trolling He's not trolling. If you have a 5 man premade, there are no ways for a person to synch queue in a throw onto your team. If you have a 4 man team, there is 1 slot open that could land a PUG throw. If you have a 3 man team, there are 2 slots open that could end up as throws. If you are in a duo, there are 3 slots open in your team that can land throws. If you are solo, there are 4 slots open in your team that can land as throws. I've been trying to explain the obvious nature of this to you guys for years. 2 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saiyan.1704 Posted July 23 Author Share Posted July 23 2 hours ago, Mne Malo Tebya.2965 said: And if so that means you will have 4 revs in a match both duoq'ed. It doesnt take much effort to notice whats going on there and they will get banned. Also you cant really avoid wintrading with a new algorithm. The only way anyone gets banned is if there's physical evidence (or other) that shows match manipulation. Whether they're literally running around the map, just pressing 1 button, have 0 armor, etc. What sucks is the responsibility falls on the players. We're the ones who has to report the player in-game, take a screen shot, then head over to the GW2 website's Report a Player section to fill out paperwork. There's quite a few plat players who are savvy on catching these match manip players when they see it happen in-game. That's how these certain accounts are getting banned. No one gets banned for simply class sync duo queueing even if you see 4 Guardians on the same team. Some one class sync queued then swapped to Guard before entering the match and that's apparently allowed according to Anet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shion.2084 Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 (edited) 20 hours ago, Mne Malo Tebya.2965 said: explain whats not right It is an algorithm designed to be applied to individuals or fixed teams, where their performance over time decides ranking. Like in Chess, where it's the same guy playing each game. The problem is the statistics fed to it are based on your TEAM's win or loss. Not your actual performance. The problem should be self evident, because your teams outcome is not a direct result of your capabilities... and so applying an algorithm that assumes that is asinine. The algorithm is even worse in that you are somehow held more accountable for your completely random team's loss if you happen to have a higher current ranking, then the guy who happened to have a lower ranking. MMR change based on difference between teams should be based on the fricken two teams relative MMR differential and applied evenly to all people on the team if your going to be dumb enough to try this algorithm. Edited July 23 by shion.2084 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mne Malo Tebya.2965 Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 (edited) 1 hour ago, Endo.1652 said: Explain If you duoq you always having the risk that it will put your duo (the one thats getting boosted) vs another random duo. Also your duo cant DC to avoid losing rating on the boosted account. If you and everyone is in soloq, the chances of getting into the same match is higher. If you wintrade with 3 people (1 is getting boosted and the other 2 snipe you) you can literally not mess up. If the boosted account gets the other 2 on the enemy team, its a free win. If the boosted account gets 1 on their team and the other on the enemy team, its really hard to lose and if you're losing the account that got on your team can simply DC to avoid losing rating. If all 3 accounts get on the same team, its a free win or you can let one DC to avoid losing rating. Even if only 1 manages to get into your game, its still either a free win or DC to not lose rating. Edited July 23 by Mne Malo Tebya.2965 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mne Malo Tebya.2965 Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 29 minutes ago, shion.2084 said: It is an algorithm designed to be applied to individuals or fixed teams, where their performance over time decides ranking. Yeah if you're winning 10 matches in a row it will match you vs better enemies because your rating increased alot. If you're not good enough to beat these better enemies you gonna lose rating and eventually settle at a rating that reflects your skill level. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KurtLittleJesus.8139 Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 50 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said: He's not trolling. If you have a 5 man premade, there are no ways for a person to synch queue in a throw onto your team. but you can safely q into your multibox accounts without ever being report more ppl easier to q sync Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KurtLittleJesus.8139 Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 35 minutes ago, Mne Malo Tebya.2965 said: If you duoq you always having the risk that it will put your duo (the one thats getting boosted) vs another random duo. Also your duo cant DC to avoid losing rating on the boosted account. If you and everyone is in soloq, the chances of getting into the same match is higher. If you wintrade with 3 people (1 is getting boosted and the other 2 snipe you) you can literally not mess up. If the boosted account gets the other 2 on the enemy team, its a free win. If the boosted account gets 1 on their team and the other on the enemy team, its really hard to lose and if you're losing the account that got on your team can simply DC to avoid losing rating. If all 3 accounts get on the same team, its a free win or you can let one DC to avoid losing rating. Even if only 1 manages to get into your game, its still either a free win or DC to not lose rating. nope, they duo vs duo, and are all on discord, but you have to ready up to enter the match, if the q doesn't pop for all of them, they just decline and don't play the game, so the chances they run into a bad match is really really low. Plus if they face any other good duo offhour, it's a good deal for both duos, to q dodge each other and go for free wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mne Malo Tebya.2965 Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 43 minutes ago, KurtLittleJesus.8139 said: nope, they duo vs duo ok, not gonna argue with you about that since you know it better anyway 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 (edited) 1 hour ago, KurtLittleJesus.8139 said: but you can safely q into your multibox accounts without ever being report more ppl easier to q sync You're missing the point. People will win trade, whether it is solo queue, duo queue, triple, quad, or 5man premade. The more slots in your team that are open for PUG rolls, the higher your chances are of getting throws. But in a 5man premade, there are no spots open for PUG throws and people will have to actually beat your team to deal you losses, rather than get easy wins through throwing. Imagine a queue system like ATs, where ONLY 5man premades are allowed. In this event, sure you'll have multiwindow kids trying "keyword there" to queue only against their own multi-boxed teams for easy wins. But what you're not looking deeply enough into is how this would make such a better queue environment and even for moderation, and actually even help to separate the win traders from the organic queuers: They'll be waiting so much longer for games. When they can't distribute and mix/mash up solo queued alts, the algorithm will identify when a clear blocking of players has gone against each other too many times, and it will begin to try harder and harder to avoid making that match. This will also make it more difficult for them to moderate actual rating gains/losses for the alts they're orchestrating because they'll have to be siphoning rating off of ONLY alts that are always throwing, which means the ratings will be low as hell. They won't have actual players to throw on to siphon their rating. This will make the process of performing these multi-boxed throws extremely obnoxious and boring, which would serve as a general deterrent for people to even want to do it to begin with. Because you're not gonna log in and run 6 or 8 games for a +14 on each game to get ahead for the day. You'd be looking at grinding some +4s for 20-30 games to get the same kind of boost. Then we are also talking about queue dodging will be more difficult for them. Because then they are trying to synch in 5 full alts in a premade into their premade, instead of a squad of solos who can fill slots into many games. So the amount of times they'd need to "decline match - reenter queue" would get to be very very boring and tedious after awhile, especially when the algorithm realizes these certain accounts have gone against each other too many times. Again, it would be another natural deterrent. It would also be much much much easier for the legitimate community to straight queue dodge the janky teams they don't want to play against. It's a lot harder to queue dodge 5 cheaters who are yolo being placed amongst several matches, than it is to queue dodge them when they are in a single team only going into one queue at a time. This really would encourage the win traders to pull their jank in their own games, entirely separate from the organic queuers. If they want to drop your rating, they'll have to queue normally and actually do it for real against your 5man team. No easy games from 2 throws going AFK on your team. It would also quite literally "line-up" the win trading activity to become soooo unbelievably visible, that it would be easy for any Arenanet dev to just peer into some matches at times, and very clearly see who is performing bull****, when you got some team of 5 guys trying to queue into a team of 5 mult-boxes all day. It would be insanely easy to spot from the amount of queue declines, accounts going against same accounts too many times, and god forbid they go into spectate and see an obvious scenario of 5 bots or AFKs standing there letting one team win. Going back to 5man queues is the only way forward if they want the ranked game mode to heal. I know it sounds so insanely inconvenient to have to socialize with others and form your own team, but I'm telling you, it's the only way at this point. And honestly guys, it is no more or less inconvenient as opening the LFG and joining a fractal group. You guys need to get over this "let's save solo queue" dream. It doesn't work, it's not going to change anything, and it will backfire on you when you realize the win trading is even more difficult to play through when you aren't allowed to have a good partner to duo with you. Again, your chances of being effected by win trading greatly rise, the more people we drop from 5man to 4, to 3, to 2, and then to 1 when you have only PUGs. Edited July 23 by Trevor Boyer.6524 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endo.1652 Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 4 hours ago, Mne Malo Tebya.2965 said: If you duoq you always having the risk that it will put your duo (the one thats getting boosted) vs another random duo. Also your duo cant DC to avoid losing rating on the boosted account. If you and everyone is in soloq, the chances of getting into the same match is higher. If you wintrade with 3 people (1 is getting boosted and the other 2 snipe you) you can literally not mess up. If the boosted account gets the other 2 on the enemy team, its a free win. If the boosted account gets 1 on their team and the other on the enemy team, its really hard to lose and if you're losing the account that got on your team can simply DC to avoid losing rating. If all 3 accounts get on the same team, its a free win or you can let one DC to avoid losing rating. Even if only 1 manages to get into your game, its still either a free win or DC to not lose rating. Then why are all the people who did the silver quing and the wintrading who have been caught are in duos? If you're in a duo, you have more control on what you force your enemy team to fight just from whatever classes you queue as. If your duo is on a silver alt but is actually a high plat player, you both can queue as a thief for example and then the third guy can also queue as thief and their rating wont matter as much. Since they are queuing into a duo who has a rating range between plat to silver. This entire throught process you explain backwards. As it gives you less control of who gets in your games. If you're solo, you could more likely just not end up in a game with either of the people helping you. Theyd be more required to be around the same rating as you are to higher guarentee to get in your games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancho.8750 Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said: You're missing the point. People will win trade, whether it is solo queue, duo queue, triple, quad, or 5man premade. The more slots in your team that are open for PUG rolls, the higher your chances are of getting throws. But in a 5man premade, there are no spots open for PUG throws and people will have to actually beat your team to deal you losses, rather than get easy wins through throwing. Imagine a queue system like ATs, where ONLY 5man premades are allowed. In this event, sure you'll have multiwindow kids trying "keyword there" to queue only against their own multi-boxed teams for easy wins. But what you're not looking deeply enough into is how this would make such a better queue environment and even for moderation, and actually even help to separate the win traders from the organic queuers: They'll be waiting so much longer for games. When they can't distribute and mix/mash up solo queued alts, the algorithm will identify when a clear blocking of players has gone against each other too many times, and it will begin to try harder and harder to avoid making that match. This will also make it more difficult for them to moderate actual rating gains/losses for the alts they're orchestrating because they'll have to be siphoning rating off of ONLY alts that are always throwing, which means the ratings will be low as hell. They won't have actual players to throw on to siphon their rating. This will make the process of performing these multi-boxed throws extremely obnoxious and boring, which would serve as a general deterrent for people to even want to do it to begin with. Because you're not gonna log in and run 6 or 8 games for a +14 on each game to get ahead for the day. You'd be looking at grinding some +4s for 20-30 games to get the same kind of boost. Then we are also talking about queue dodging will be more difficult for them. Because then they are trying to synch in 5 full alts in a premade into their premade, instead of a squad of solos who can fill slots into many games. So the amount of times they'd need to "decline match - reenter queue" would get to be very very boring and tedious after awhile, especially when the algorithm realizes these certain accounts have gone against each other too many times. Again, it would be another natural deterrent. It would also be much much much easier for the legitimate community to straight queue dodge the janky teams they don't want to play against. It's a lot harder to queue dodge 5 cheaters who are yolo being placed amongst several matches, than it is to queue dodge them when they are in a single team only going into one queue at a time. This really would encourage the win traders to pull their jank in their own games, entirely separate from the organic queuers. If they want to drop your rating, they'll have to queue normally and actually do it for real against your 5man team. No easy games from 2 throws going AFK on your team. It would also quite literally "line-up" the win trading activity to become soooo unbelievably visible, that it would be easy for any Arenanet dev to just peer into some matches at times, and very clearly see who is performing bull****, when you got some team of 5 guys trying to queue into a team of 5 mult-boxes all day. It would be insanely easy to spot from the amount of queue declines, accounts going against same accounts too many times, and god forbid they go into spectate and see an obvious scenario of 5 bots or AFKs standing there letting one team win. Going back to 5man queues is the only way forward if they want the ranked game mode to heal. I know it sounds so insanely inconvenient to have to socialize with others and form your own team, but I'm telling you, it's the only way at this point. And honestly guys, it is no more or less inconvenient as opening the LFG and joining a fractal group. You guys need to get over this "let's save solo queue" dream. It doesn't work, it's not going to change anything, and it will backfire on you when you realize the win trading is even more difficult to play through when you aren't allowed to have a good partner to duo with you. Again, your chances of being effected by win trading greatly rise, the more people we drop from 5man to 4, to 3, to 2, and then to 1 when you have only PUGs. Getting only 5 man queue is sure way to kill off pvp for good though. You live in a fantasy if you think most people will kittening bother to find 5 man teams , by statistics from anet 80% of people were solo queue when they dropped 5 man, so only solo queue makes sense here. Actually anet should make 5man queue and solo queue separate of eachother , people will vote on which they prefer by playing it. Also the socializing argument is stupid most people do not want to bother with even more Randoms on the inernet , 20 years ago it was fun novelty , now everything and everyone wants you in some kind of chat or some kitten social media. People just want to click a button and play a game and have fun, the more hoops you put to getting to the fun the more people go to play something else. Also it seems that you think that most people want to be competitive it's actually the reverse most people just want to play a game like years and years ago before companies added ranking numbers. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endo.1652 Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 (edited) 5 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said: He's not trolling. If you have a 5 man premade, there are no ways for a person to synch queue in a throw onto your team. If you have a 4 man team, there is 1 slot open that could land a PUG throw. If you have a 3 man team, there are 2 slots open that could end up as throws. If you are in a duo, there are 3 slots open in your team that can land throws. If you are solo, there are 4 slots open in your team that can land as throws. I've been trying to explain the obvious nature of this to you guys for years. These arguements are backwards because its like we all forget that rating still plays a factor into this. If you are solo plat 3, you have way less control on who you are vs. One of the people helping need to be somewhat closer to your rating if you want to have someone consistantly in your games. If you duo as a high plat and a silver (but its actually a high plat player on the account). The person q syncing against your duo can have a lot more breathing room on q sniping you since the range is tanked by the silver account. Get it? Edited July 23 by Endo.1652 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mne Malo Tebya.2965 Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 23 minutes ago, Endo.1652 said: Then why are all the people who did the silver quing and the wintrading who have been caught are in duos? If you're in a duo, you have more control on what you force your enemy team to fight just from whatever classes you queue as. If your duo is on a silver alt but is actually a high plat player, you both can queue as a thief for example and then the third guy can also queue as thief and their rating wont matter as much. Since they are queuing into a duo who has a rating range between plat to silver. This entire throught process you explain backwards. As it gives you less control of who gets in your games. If you're solo, you could more likely just not end up in a game with either of the people helping you. Theyd be more required to be around the same rating as you are to higher guarentee to get in your games. Silver q'ing and wintrading are two different things. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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