[Matchmaking Abuse] Why is Duo = 2 and GuildTeam = 50% ... a thing? [Merged]

[Endo.1652]

5 minutes ago, Mne Malo Tebya.2965 said:

Silver q'ing and wintrading are two different things.

They both work together really well. Again you're missing the point. The solo q argument doesnt work as well as you think because those players after some amount of games the rating differences will be too far to higher guarentee them in your games

[Mne Malo Tebya.2965]

4 minutes ago, Endo.1652 said:

They both work together really well. Again you're missing the point.

As I already suggested earlier in this thread, duoq'ing with a big rating span should not be allowed. So silver q'ing would not be possible.

 

4 minutes ago, Endo.1652 said:

The solo q argument doesnt work as well as you think because those players after some amount of games the rating differences will be too far to higher guarentee them in your games

Do you even have any clue about this mode? There are literally silver and gold pugs put vs high rated players. If the boosters are in p+ they will be able to snipe 100%. 
 

Edited July 23 by Mne Malo Tebya.2965

[Endo.1652]

5 minutes ago, Mne Malo Tebya.2965 said:

Do you even have any clue about this mode? There are literally silver and gold pugs put vs high rated players. If the boosters are in p+ they will be able to snipe 100%. 
 

Thats cause of low population but again. As the boosters lose rating, the more they have to regain it back to get in the same games consistently. Its far more work and time spent and may even require more people and/or accounts to do it. The matchmaking tries to balance out average ratings and tries to mirrior classes. The higher your account goes and the lower the throwing account gets, the less likely it will be in your match. Wintrading currently works in synergy with silver quing along side quing as the same classes. Saying its easier solo is just crazy to me.

[Mne Malo Tebya.2965]

4 minutes ago, Endo.1652 said:

As the boosters lose rating, the more they have to regain it back to get in the same games consistently

Youre onto something sherlock! yeah ofc you need to gain rating back and that requires alot time and work but thats the same case if you duoq/silver'q.

 

6 minutes ago, Endo.1652 said:

synergy with silver

you dont need to wintrade when silver q to get to 1950+ rating.

7 minutes ago, Endo.1652 said:

Saying its easier solo is just crazy to me.

Wintrading isnt always about winning and gaining rating. The far more important part is to prevent losing rating when you lose a match. You are able to let the booster on your team DC and prevent you from losing rating when you are all soloq'd. When your in a duoq you cant do that. Thats why it makes more sense to wintrade soloq. You can look up some exposed wintrading in the past and see that most are soloq'ing. 

 

Or im just crazy. Whatever you prefer to believe 🙂

[Gotejjeken.1267]

7 hours ago, Mne Malo Tebya.2965 said:

wintrading is actually easier with only soloq

 

5 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

He's not trolling.

• If you have a 5 man premade, there are no ways for a person to synch queue in a throw onto your team.
• If you have a 4 man team, there is 1 slot open that could land a PUG throw.
• If you have a 3 man team, there are 2 slots open that could end up as throws.
• If you are in a duo, there are 3 slots open in your team that can land throws.
• If you are solo, there are 4 slots open in your team that can land as throws.

I've been trying to explain the obvious nature of this to you guys for years.

How does the number of possible throws on a team mean wintrading is easier if you soloq?

Throws can be afk's, ragequit, etc.---it's not guaranteed to go the way of the wintrader here as you have zero control when you solo q.  

It's the opposite of your list for wintrading, 5-man you are guaranteed to be able to do it as can all throw by standing at spawn or should be guaranteed win against a non-comp'd 5-man (if it isn't something is very wrong) and then so on all the way down to 1.

I only soloq and couldn't wintrade if I tried, couldn't even get someone that rage afk's every game to leave once and a while so not lose rating, they just stay and swear in chat 😂.

[Mne Malo Tebya.2965]

2 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I only soloq and couldn't wintrade if I tried, couldn't even get someone that rage afk's every game to leave once and a while so not lose rating, they just stay and swear in chat 

You dont ask randoms to wintrade for you wtf xd

You do it with a group of  people you know

[Endo.1652]

4 minutes ago, Mne Malo Tebya.2965 said:

You can look up some exposed wintrading in the past and see that most are soloq'ing.

Maybe its different for EU, but NA most of the caught ones or exposed ones for the last few years have been duo queued as far as I know.

[Mne Malo Tebya.2965]

6 minutes ago, Endo.1652 said:

Maybe its different for EU, but NA most of the caught ones or exposed ones for the last few years have been duo queued as far as I know.

And also being duoq has a higher risk of getting sniped by people who will try to prevent you from getting titles. When you duoq with 2 teams and try to wintrade, people will eventually notice that and just q up as a duo vs you. That means you will not get vs the duo that is supposed to throw vs you, instead you get vs a tryhard duo that will try to make you lose.

 

And if you're duo is on a silver account, losing just a couple matches because of this would ruin your title run because you lose 50+ rating and maybe gain 1-3 per win. That would make it impossible to climb back without exposing you from min matches.

Edited July 23 by Mne Malo Tebya.2965

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

55 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Getting only 5 man queue is sure way to kill off pvp for good though.

Nah

55 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

You live in a fantasy if you think most people will kittening bother to find 5 man teams

That's like saying: "No one would have played dungeons or fractals if they would have been 5 man parties, and absolutely no one would ever party or squad up in wvw". What you're saying is just this clinging onto the idea of being used to solo queue. The same people who play now would still play. If you made them try something new, they just might find that they like it. In fact, I be willingly to bet that 98% of the community who vouches against 5man premades now, would vouch that they liked it better after seeing how much it would actually improve match quality.

58 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

by statistics from anet 80% of people were solo queue when they dropped 5 man,

Yeah, because win trading, bots, multi-boxing, f2p accounts weren't a massive issue in that era. Back then the queue system actually worked. Now, it doesn't.

If you want to seriously argue this, you can't avoid how much things have changed from then, to now.

1 hour ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Actually anet should make 5man queue and solo queue separate of eachother , people will vote on which they prefer by playing it.

We don't have the population for it anymore. They need to be condensing queues, not creating more queues.

1 hour ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Also the socializing argument is stupid most people do not want to bother with even more Randoms on the inernet , 20 years ago it was fun novelty , now everything and everyone wants you in some kind of chat or some kitten social media. 

Dude this isn't difficult. We aren't talking year 1 try-hard formations attempts to make a team on VC good enough to compete in the ESL. We are talking say "Gold 2 players" posting an LFG that says "Gold 2+" in the ranked LFG. This is absolutely no different than a fractal LFG saying something like "Fresh Recs" or "T4+Recs" or "CMs + T4s". You wouldn't even need to barely speak to your team mates. Just get in the LFG with other Gold 2s if you're Gold 2 and push the queue button, or whoever it is you want to play with.

1 hour ago, Vancho.8750 said:

People just want to click a button and play a game and have fun, the more hoops you put to getting to the fun the more people go to play something else

Except due to the hoops of rampant match manipulation, the population is getting lower and lower, and pushing a button to wait in a queue is getting longer and longer and the pool of players is too small to even create game quality match making, IF you can get into a game where there aren't throw PUGs on your team. There aint bigger rings & hoops of fire preventing you from having "fun" than the ridiculous amount of match manipulation going on in this community.

Ya'all need to stop being so narrow in your points of view about this. You're just conditioned to "what you think is normal" and you're not able to see out of it.

1 hour ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Also it seems that you think that most people want to be competitive it's actually the reverse most people just want to play a game like years and years ago before companies added ranking numbers.

Um, no

1. It's pvp. This is a competitive game mode.
2. Years and years ago before games added rank numbers, I was sitting in a basement with my friends playing on Nintendos, trying just as hard or harder at pvp games than I do now. Pvp games are competitive my guy. That's why it's pvp.

1 hour ago, Endo.1652 said:

These arguements are backwards because its like we all forget that rating still plays a factor into this. If you are solo plat 3, you have way less control on who you are vs. One of the people helping need to be somewhat closer to your rating if you want to have someone consistantly in your games.

Well that goes directly into what I'm saying, Endo. If they want to play more frequent games, they can stop queue dodging each other. It's as simple as that. This is the way it's supposed to be to begin with. Reenabling 5man queues would just solve so many problems. I'm telling you if they ran a 2 week beta test of this as a mini season, people wouldn't be arguing with me on this anymore.

54 minutes ago, Mne Malo Tebya.2965 said:

Silver q'ing and wintrading are two different things.

It's true. I don't care so much about soft manipulations. I really don't.

It's the synch queueing as a squad bull**** that drove me off the game mode. I don't even play ranked anymore due to it.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

15 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

How does the number of possible throws on a team mean wintrading is easier if you soloq?

Listen to what @Mne Malo Tebya.2965 is telling this thread man. He's already explaining to you why.

The fact that you don't understand any of this is actually relieving and reassuring to me that you are not a win trader or throw patsy.

[jdawgie.1835]

On 7/22/2024 at 11:03 AM, Mne Malo Tebya.2965 said:

explain whats not right

Bro Saiyan just broke this down already what do you mean explain whats not.

On 7/21/2024 at 9:57 PM, Saiyan.1704 said:

for example, duo thief, you're going to have a very big chance of getting a thief on the opposite team.

On 7/21/2024 at 9:57 PM, Saiyan.1704 said:

Not just that, the chances of your Main spec being on your own team is much higher for obvious reasons. If you main Necro and want a necro on your team, duoQ with a partner and run double engi. You'll get a necro on your team and no Engi's ever unless they swap to Engi right when their queue pops (so it looks like they entered the match as that spec).

I'll even shorten it for you. If you don't want go against a class (your counter) que as your counter x2. Then swap to your main. This is been a thing for ever. 

[Mne Malo Tebya.2965]

Just now, jdawgie.1835 said:

I'll even shorten it for you. If you don't want go against a class (your counter) que as your counter x2. Then swap to your main. This is been a thing for ever. 

Ill shorten it out for you. I said get rid off class swapping when accepting a match. 

[jdawgie.1835]

1 hour ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Getting only 5 man queue is sure way to kill off pvp for good though.

When they eliminated 5 man teams - they eliminated all spvp specific guilds. Who did a majority of the training and education. Two people per match is not enough to sustain a spvp only guild. There we once dozens upon dozens up Spvp only guilds. When they left because they could no longer play together - or for example have four vet players take along 1 new person and coach him/her. This was standard for a spvp guild.

DUO made those guilds obsolete and once they left a massive chunk of the pvp community was gone. Bringing back 5 mans would bring back spvp focused guilds  and therefore alot of the healthy basics those guilds did, and a significantly higher player count.  TBH this game is the only game I have ever seen where the community crying for solo que is treated as normal. Its not normal. Not in CS, League, Apex, Fortnite, Smite, WoW, Etc. 

Edited July 23 by jdawgie.1835

[jdawgie.1835]

11 minutes ago, Mne Malo Tebya.2965 said:

Ill shorten it out for you. I said get rid off class swapping when accepting a match. 

I agree with you - you asked how it is broken. An answer was given. Class swapping is a separate issue though. One issue is player sanctioned activities, and the other is client side calculations that are inherently flawed. I dont think class swapping should be a thing either, though so again. I agree.

Edited July 23 by jdawgie.1835

[Endo.1652]

20 minutes ago, Mne Malo Tebya.2965 said:

And also being duoq has a higher risk of getting sniped by people who will try to prevent you from getting titles. When you duoq with 2 teams and try to wintrade, people will eventually notice that and just q up as a duo vs you. That means you will not get vs the duo that is supposed to throw vs you, instead you get vs a tryhard duo that will try to make you lose.

 

And if you're duo is on a silver account, losing just a couple matches because of this would ruin your title run because you lose 50+ rating and maybe gain 1-3 per win. That would make it impossible to climb back without exposing you from min matches.

Most of them when they are trading. They are usually pulling every trick in the book to guarentee a point gain. Even if its 1-2 pts. Ill tell you the last people who got banned for win trading I dont think I seen them in a single game of mine last season because of times they queue and etc. The main problem is the pvp population. Thats all it boils down to. The current duo queue and how its structured, the matchmaking. It just doesnt work as often as we want it to

[Mne Malo Tebya.2965]

1 minute ago, jdawgie.1835 said:

I agree with you - you asked how it is broken. An answer was given.

I said:
 

Quote

The algorithm is fine. You just need to get rid of swapping classes after accepting a match and being able to duoq with any rating span

 

[jdawgie.1835]

On 7/22/2024 at 11:03 AM, Mne Malo Tebya.2965 said:

explain whats not right

You also said this. Dont cherry pick. 

[Mne Malo Tebya.2965]

Just now, jdawgie.1835 said:

You also said this. Dont cherry pick. 

I wrote this after i said: "The algorithm is fine. You just need to get rid of swapping classes after accepting a match and being able to duoq with any rating span"

 

If you dont understand that means im asking for other points besides these 2 that I already mentioned

 

[Vancho.8750]

@Trevor Boyer.6524

How is Nah. Sure as kitten most of the casuals wont bother which means 95% won play the game.

Also no one goes to dungeons if there isn't some kind of goober for legendary or something.

Vast majority don't give a kitten about wintrading, bots, f2p whatever, they care if its fun and if its not you don't get new people to play with.

Also you know if given the choice people will queue solo over 5s if given the choice. Tournaments are clear indication that like 50 players play 5s.

LFG sucks kitten even in PVE, everyone wants proof its worse then trying to get a job out there and even if you try to wrangle the cats kitteners could kick you from your own group for stupid reason, its kitten all the way.

People also don't leave the game because "match manipulation" , people leave cause they are bored and there are no new people come in cause most people who play GW2 are really ,really , really casual  and to them too hard, too boring and too unfun.

The whole game is not competitive even the pvp is not on the basis that it is MMO pvp, there are not tangible rewards for GIT GUT, there is no point in GIT GUT, there is no league or something to show off and get money, its just a game to have fun and be entertained. There is literally no point in sweating and tryharding this game since at best as competitive as that weird party game Fall Guys.

See you look at the game of the very narrow perspective of a tryhard player, take a step back and get inside the shoes of a really really casual player (which is the majority of the playerbase), will you bother with finding 4 other players to wait in queue for 5 minutes to play for max 15 and get 30 silver  and allot of frustration or go do a sparkly meta event, world boss or join a WvW zerg? 

[Vancho.8750]

59 minutes ago, jdawgie.1835 said:

When they eliminated 5 man teams - they eliminated all spvp specific guilds. Who did a majority of the training and education. Two people per match is not enough to sustain a spvp only guild. There we once dozens upon dozens up Spvp only guilds. When they left because they could no longer play together - or for example have four vet players take along 1 new person and coach him/her. This was standard for a spvp guild.

DUO made those guilds obsolete and once they left a massive chunk of the pvp community was gone. Bringing back 5 mans would bring back spvp focused guilds  and therefore alot of the healthy basics those guilds did, and a significantly higher player count.  TBH this game is the only game I have ever seen where the community crying for solo que is treated as normal. Its not normal. Not in CS, League, Apex, Fortnite, Smite, WoW, Etc. 

And that was long long time ago, probably done on purpose so anet does not spend resources on PVP(tin foil hat theory). But if we have Only 5 man queue it will probably kill off what's left of  pvp.

Pretty sure also that LOL players complain about the duo part in the solo/duo queue, they do have flex queue and doesn't make sense to have the duo muddling the rating in solo when you can play duo in flex.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

22 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

How is Nah. Sure as kitten most of the casuals wont bother which means 95% won play the game.

Also no one goes to dungeons if there isn't some kind of goober for legendary or something.

Vast majority don't give a kitten about wintrading, bots, f2p whatever, they care if its fun and if its not you don't get new people to play with.

Also you know if given the choice people will queue solo over 5s if given the choice. Tournaments are clear indication that like 50 players play 5s.

LFG sucks kitten even in PVE, everyone wants proof its worse then trying to get a job out there and even if you try to wrangle the cats kitteners could kick you from your own group for stupid reason, its kitten all the way.

People also don't leave the game because "match manipulation" , people leave cause they are bored and there are no new people come in cause most people who play GW2 are really ,really , really casual  and to them too hard, too boring and too unfun.

The whole game is not competitive even the pvp is not on the basis that it is MMO pvp, there are not tangible rewards for GIT GUT, there is no point in GIT GUT, there is no league or something to show off and get money, its just a game to have fun and be entertained. There is literally no point in sweating and tryharding this game since at best as competitive as that weird party game Fall Guys.

See you look at the game of the very narrow perspective of a tryhard player, take a step back and get inside the shoes of a really really casual player (which is the majority of the playerbase), will you bother with finding 4 other players to wait in queue for 5 minutes to play for max 15 and get 30 silver  and allot of frustration or go do a sparkly meta event, world boss or join a WvW zerg? 

Nah

11 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

And that was long long time ago, probably done on purpose so anet does not spend resources on PVP(tin foil hat theory). But if we have Only 5 man queue it will probably kill off what's left of  pvp.

Nah

[Vancho.8750]

1 minute ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Nah

Nah

Great argument. I'll respond with no u, nuh uh and maybe a  meme with me being the chad and you the soyjack which makes me the winner if bothered to do it, but lets pretend that I did. 

[shion.2084]

7 hours ago, Mne Malo Tebya.2965 said:

Yeah if you're winning 10 matches in a row it will match you vs better enemies because your rating increased alot. If you're not good enough to beat these better enemies you gonna lose rating and eventually settle at a rating that reflects your skill level.

I'll try just one more time.   You can be winning all your fights and still lose.   Or you can completely suck and still win.   The problem with the algorithm is that it assumes that the outcome of you plus 4 other people working together, is specifically due to your sole contribution.  

[Last Crab.6054]

the system abuse has been layed out in plain sight over and over again.

 

[Mne Malo Tebya.2965]

8 hours ago, shion.2084 said:

Or you can completely suck and still win

I never played League but tried it for the first time a few months ago. Guess what, thats exactly how i felt in alot of matches. 

 

8 hours ago, shion.2084 said:

You can be winning all your fights and still lose

Thats pretty normal for a team game. And if you are really good you can still carry.

If you cant deal with losing in a team game, you might wanna try out a solo game. 

8 hours ago, shion.2084 said:

The problem with the algorithm is that it assumes that the outcome of you plus 4 other people working together

And whats the problem with that? It tries to balance out an avg rating on both teams and similar classes on both teams. So both teams have the same ''strength'' and the outcome for a team to lose/win should be 50/50. Now thats often not the case but not due to the algorithm, rather because of the circumstances that are there (allowing class swapping after accepting q, being able to silver q, low population in general, not punishing afk'ers). Alot of these problems could be fixed and would improve the general ranked experience.  

Edited July 24 by Mne Malo Tebya.2965