Poll: New WvW vs Old WvW system

[Gorani.7205]

If the progression under the new system should create better balanced matchups with each new creation of alliances/teams, the last matchmaking has created a more unbalanced match - just my observation, coming from Grenth's Door and now being with Kormir's Library. 🤷‍♂️

[cajalbelvue.5319]

Balancing based on player activity is non-sense. The act of balancing changes the players activity so the information you get from that is garbage.
Give the player the information, incentive and ability to balance themselves. Stop trying to do impossible things like "a balancing algorithm".
And a guild or alliance choosing isn't a player choosing. I don't mean give alliance leaders the control of balance, you'll end up with 40v1's.
Maybe incentivize a static server discord as a clearing house for information for who's doing what. To do that you would have to get rid of alliances. I imagine alliance will get rid of themselves eventually because they are going in the direction of hiding in isolation and thereby losing members members over time. 

Edited July 31 by cajalbelvue.5319

[TheGrimm.5624]

9 minutes ago, cajalbelvue.5319 said:

Balancing based on player activity is non-sense. The act of balancing changes the players activity so the information you get from that is garbage.
Give the player the information, incentive and ability to balance themselves. Stop trying to do impossible things like "a balancing algorithm".
And a guild or alliance choosing isn't a player choosing. I don't mean give alliance leaders the control of balance, you'll end up with 40v1's.

Not sure I follow. What are picturing here? 

[Cael.3960]

I feel a lot of the discontent with WR is that many players were happily surrounded by a large (often stacked) community with familiar commanders and timetables they could easily join/quit at their leisure without having to make any other form of commitment. Why join a guild when there was always an open tag? Why join a tag when there are always 5-10 other players hanging out in SMC at all times? Why join discord or voice coms if they were just going to get all sweaty about builds/gear and ask that you swap to a different class? Why give your personal wealth to a guild for tactics/tactivators/food/utilities when they'll usually drop it in a keep for everyone? Nothing was asked, no contributions were required, you could happily log onto a bl at almost any hour and play with your 'community' with no strings attached. 

WR sucks for folks who got a free ride for years. It sucks less for recognized faces who were renowned scouts, roamers or pugmanders as they're welcomed no matter where they go. It sucks the least for those in guilds, in many respects WR is no different than relinks. They played mostly within their guild community before WR and now their alliance just makes it easier to extend that guild community to players who were on different servers. 

As someone who was on a link server for almost the entire time that system was in WvW there hasn't been much change where militia is concerned. Same flavor of pugs no matter which host we had back then and expectations are roughly the same now. One thing I do enjoy is seeing different tags on a more regular basis, both for and against. As a link we were shackled to the success (or lack thereof) of our host server. In most cases this meant sleeping in the basement for 4-5 weeks where familiarity becomes enmity for everyone involved, or getting pushed to T1 for weeks where nothing happened without taking a hundred arrowcarts to the face. WR, if nothing else, feels like I could see a different force on a map no matter what tier we're in. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm seeing a lot more arrowcarts to the face now than ever before thanks to the defensive meta where PPT blobs bunker behind walls and treb everything in reach rather than take the risk of doing anything outside, but at the very lest I'm seeing more flavors of defensive siege-spam now than I used to. Even learning a few new tricks myself to pass on to the random collection of pugs who will happily off themselves on a wall until someone builds siege for them and drags them over to use it. 

[Hesione.9412]

10 minutes ago, Cael.3960 said:

WR sucks for folks who got a free ride for years. It sucks less for recognized faces who were renowned scouts, roamers or pugmanders as they're welcomed no matter where they go. It sucks the least for those in guilds, in many respects WR is no different than relinks. They played mostly within their guild community before WR and now their alliance just makes it easier to extend that guild community to players who were on different servers.

Most players got a "free ride". If you want WvW to end up with three shards/alliances of elitists per EU/NA, then this is the attitude to have.

[Cael.3960]

6 minutes ago, Hesione.9412 said:

Most players got a "free ride". If you want WvW to end up with three shards/alliances of elitists per EU/NA, then this is the attitude to have.

The ones who stayed after getting a gift of battle and then only play when their server is 'winning' and there's an open tag to k-train with? Yes, they were the ones getting a 'free ride'. Most of them aren't on these forums though and many never will be. For them, there was little interest in engaging with the WvW community to begin with and regardless of the structuring or balance in WvW the only thing that matters is whether there's a open, visible tag on the map and whether it's winning. 

That's not an elitist statement, that's a statement from a former server mentor who spent hundreds of hours training militia and recognized that most militia players fell into three categories: the zergling waiting for a tag, the keep defender, and the solo/roamer chasing OJ's for content. Almost all of those who became accomplished players did the same thing: they joined a guild. Not because guilds are better, not because the game forced them to. But because the part of the community they enjoyed the most distilled themselves into regular parties that eventually became guilds. They cared about the game mode, their performance, and sought out those who could enhance both as well as their personal enjoyment. 

When WR landed they had a guild, and if they chose, an alliance to go with it. For most of them that meant their 'community' remained intact even as servers made the transition through matchmaking into teams. Those who complain that WR destroyed their community and their enjoyment of WvW.... they cared more about being carried along by a powerful server than to help build the one they were with. I totally understand why players might be upset that their map has fewer than 15 players total when they were accustomed to fighting a que just to swarm outnumbered content, but I also don't hold sympathy for them. It's easy to be part of a community, you just have to care and make an effort. 

[Cameirus.8407]

1 hour ago, Cael.3960 said:

I feel a lot of the discontent with WR is that many players were happily surrounded by a large (often stacked) community with familiar commanders and timetables they could easily join/quit at their leisure without having to make any other form of commitment. Why join a guild when there was always an open tag? Why join a tag when there are always 5-10 other players hanging out in SMC at all times? Why join discord or voice coms if they were just going to get all sweaty about builds/gear and ask that you swap to a different class? Why give your personal wealth to a guild for tactics/tactivators/food/utilities when they'll usually drop it in a keep for everyone? Nothing was asked, no contributions were required, you could happily log onto a bl at almost any hour and play with your 'community' with no strings attached. 

WR sucks for folks who got a free ride for years. It sucks less for recognized faces who were renowned scouts, roamers or pugmanders as they're welcomed no matter where they go. It sucks the least for those in guilds, in many respects WR is no different than relinks. They played mostly within their guild community before WR and now their alliance just makes it easier to extend that guild community to players who were on different servers. 

As someone who was on a link server for almost the entire time that system was in WvW there hasn't been much change where militia is concerned. Same flavor of pugs no matter which host we had back then and expectations are roughly the same now. One thing I do enjoy is seeing different tags on a more regular basis, both for and against. As a link we were shackled to the success (or lack thereof) of our host server. In most cases this meant sleeping in the basement for 4-5 weeks where familiarity becomes enmity for everyone involved, or getting pushed to T1 for weeks where nothing happened without taking a hundred arrowcarts to the face. WR, if nothing else, feels like I could see a different force on a map no matter what tier we're in. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm seeing a lot more arrowcarts to the face now than ever before thanks to the defensive meta where PPT blobs bunker behind walls and treb everything in reach rather than take the risk of doing anything outside, but at the very lest I'm seeing more flavors of defensive siege-spam now than I used to. Even learning a few new tricks myself to pass on to the random collection of pugs who will happily off themselves on a wall until someone builds siege for them and drags them over to use it. 

this is the worst kind of elitist rubbish I've ever seen posted here.

no. people were not free rides. people maybe had reasons for not wanting to be in a guild (like maybe your attitude and those like it for a start), but still contributed. joined tags, joined discords, had commanders friended, discords saved on their server and the common links. I knew a lot of players who were not in guilds who put in significant time, who ran in groups, in "proper" builds, who joined discord, and most of the time were the best players to run with as the attitude was generally more relaxed, and tolerant of setbacks. I've spent many an evening with your so called "free ride" players running against teams that outmatch us in numbers and organisation, sneaking what we can, clouding enemy boon balls down gradually, and when the opportunity presents itself, making a daring, though quite often successful, quick strike on stonemist whilst the bigger teams are distracted. Nothing like a group of pugs sneaking a cap from the tryhards, a great community feeling as we celebrate in mapchat (then run from the angry blue/green/red retaliation!).

thats the fun of WvW, and WR destroys it. If anet want to make GvG, make it. but stop trying to make WvW that.

The problem with your attitude is it caters to the smaller number of  more extreme players, and positively excludes new or casual players. new players are needed to replace those that drop out, or the game dies. casual players, much as you may not believe it, make up the majority of players by far.

Edited July 31 by Cameirus.8407

[Hesione.9412]

37 minutes ago, Cael.3960 said:

The ones who stayed after getting a gift of battle and then only play when their server is 'winning' and there's an open tag to k-train with? Yes, they were the ones getting a 'free ride'. Most of them aren't on these forums though and many never will be. For them, there was little interest in engaging with the WvW community to begin with and regardless of the structuring or balance in WvW the only thing that matters is whether there's a open, visible tag on the map and whether it's winning. 

That's not an elitist statement, that's a statement from a former server mentor who spent hundreds of hours training militia and recognized that most militia players fell into three categories: the zergling waiting for a tag, the keep defender, and the solo/roamer chasing OJ's for content. Almost all of those who became accomplished players did the same thing: they joined a guild. Not because guilds are better, not because the game forced them to. But because the part of the community they enjoyed the most distilled themselves into regular parties that eventually became guilds. They cared about the game mode, their performance, and sought out those who could enhance both as well as their personal enjoyment. 

When WR landed they had a guild, and if they chose, an alliance to go with it. For most of them that meant their 'community' remained intact even as servers made the transition through matchmaking into teams. Those who complain that WR destroyed their community and their enjoyment of WvW.... they cared more about being carried along by a powerful server than to help build the one they were with. I totally understand why players might be upset that their map has fewer than 15 players total when they were accustomed to fighting a que just to swarm outnumbered content, but I also don't hold sympathy for them. It's easy to be part of a community, you just have to care and make an effort. 

The small guilds who didn't want to join a larger guild, because that put one person in charge of all guilds and they lost their identity, are leechers?

Wow. Just wow.

[Cael.3960]

12 minutes ago, Cameirus.8407 said:

this is the worst kind of elitist rubbish I've ever seen posted here.

no. people were not free rides. people maybe had reasons for not wanting to be in a guild (like maybe your attitude and those like it for a start), but still contributed. joined tags, joined discords, had commanders friended, discords saved on their server and the common links. I knew a lot of players who were not in guilds who put in significant time, who ran in groups, in "proper" builds, who joined discord, and most of the time were the best players to run with as the attitude was generally more relaxed, and tolerant of setbacks. I've spent many an evening with your so called "free ride" players running against teams that outmatch us in numbers and organisation, sneaking what we can, clouding enemy boon balls down gradually, and when the opportunity presents itself, making a daring, though quite often successful, quick strike on stonemist whilst the bigger teams are distracted. Nothing like a group of pugs sneaking a cap from the tryhards, a great community feeling as we celebrate in mapchat (then run from the angry blue/green/red retaliation!).

thats the fun of WvW, and WR destroys it. If anet want to make GvG, make it. but stop trying to make WvW that.

The problem with your attitude is it caters to the smaller number of  more extreme players, and positively excludes new or casual players. new players are needed to replace those that drop out, or the game dies. casual players, much as you may not believe it, make up the majority of players by far.

 

1 minute ago, Hesione.9412 said:

The small guilds who didn't want to join a larger guild, because that put one person in charge of all guilds and they lost their identity, are leechers?

Wow. Just wow.

Thankyou both for sharing your personal opinions and for putting your words in my mouth rather than make an attempt to consider an alternate perspective. We'll have to agree to disagree as I feel this has ceased to become a discussion and has become, instead, a focus for personal attacks. I will not be responding to future posts until a more rationed, reasoned approach is offered. 

[Hesione.9412]

14 minutes ago, Cameirus.8407 said:

this is the worst kind of elitist rubbish I've ever seen posted here.

no. people were not free rides. people maybe had reasons for not wanting to be in a guild (like maybe your attitude and those like it for a start), but still contributed. joined tags, joined discords, had commanders friended, discords saved on their server and the common links. I knew a lot of players who were not in guilds who put in significant time, who ran in groups, in "proper" builds, who joined discord, and most of the time were the best players to run with as the attitude was generally more relaxed, and tolerant of setbacks. I've spent many an evening with your so called "free ride" players running against teams that outmatch us in numbers and organisation, sneaking what we can, clouding enemy boon balls down gradually, and when the opportunity presents itself, making a daring, though quite often successful, quick strike on stonemist whilst the bigger teams are distracted. Nothing like a group of pugs sneaking a cap from the tryhards, a great community feeling as we celebrate in mapchat (then run from the angry blue/green/red retaliation!).

thats the fun of WvW, and WR destroys it. If anet want to make GvG, make it. but stop trying to make WvW that.

The problem with your attitude is it caters to the smaller number of  more extreme players, and positively excludes new or casual players. new players are needed to replace those that drop out, or the game dies. casual players, much as you may not believe it, make up the majority of players by far.

These types of players seem to be the only ones that Anet listens to. Which is why WvW is becoming a more miserable place for non-blobs. And why they push back against any suggestion that gives small player groups any advantage against a blob. The attitude seems to be that smaller groups of players might as well just stop playing.

[Hesione.9412]

2 minutes ago, Cael.3960 said:

 

Thankyou both for sharing your personal opinions and for putting your words in my mouth rather than make an attempt to consider an alternate perspective. We'll have to agree to disagree as I feel this has ceased to become a discussion and has become, instead, a focus for personal attacks. I will not be responding to future posts until a more rationed, reasoned approach is offered. 

You literally said that the players got a free ride. Those were your words.

 

[Cameirus.8407]

17 minutes ago, Cael.3960 said:

 

Thankyou both for sharing your personal opinions and for putting your words in my mouth rather than make an attempt to consider an alternate perspective. We'll have to agree to disagree as I feel this has ceased to become a discussion and has become, instead, a focus for personal attacks. I will not be responding to future posts until a more rationed, reasoned approach is offered. 

mate, you literally accused people who dont play how you think they should play as being  a "free ride".....so lose the attempt at offended outrage ok?

You can want polite discourse, or you can be insulting and condescending, but you cant do the later than complain about a lack of the former.

Edited July 31 by Cameirus.8407

[Zok.4956]

9 hours ago, Cael.3960 said:

Nothing was asked, no contributions were required, you could happily log onto a bl at almost any hour and play with your 'community' with no strings attached. 

Yes, those were the good old days. A player can get a taste of WvW and then decide at some point whether and when he wants to commit more intensively to a guild, when he feels he is ready for a permanent commitment.

There was (on many/several servers) a colorful mix of players and guilds with varying levels of organization, all working together under the roof of one server. There was nothing wrong with that in my opinion.

 

9 hours ago, Cael.3960 said:

WR sucks for folks who got a free ride for years.

I think it's a questionable point of view when you disparagingly refer to fellow players who don't conform to your ideal playing style as "free riders". 

 

[hugeboss.5432]

On the internet, ppl that oppose things are more likely to voice their protest than the people who enjoy it ("ppl who enjoy it, play the game instead"). So the poll is likely going to be very bias negatively. But, it's too early to say anything at this point really, gotta give it some time, plus there will probably be more adjustments.. I've met a lot of new guilds which is great, and had lots of laughs with new people! 😄  I'm not thinking too much about wins+losses+kdr yet, we have to get to know the actual player alliances that are playing in the matchups to get a better overall picture of the system, as they seem a bit too invisible at the moment (when using ingame wvw stats only).

Plus, wvw players are no longer focused taxed with the insane gem transfer system like before (honestly, we were milked for years, so this is a big relief).

[Zok.4956]

36 minutes ago, hugeboss.5432 said:

On the internet, ppl that oppose things are more likely to voice their protest than the people who enjoy it ("ppl who enjoy it, play the game instead")

When it comes to computer games, most dissatisfied players simply stop playing without writing anything in forums.

There is a rule of thumb (generally related to customers and customer service) that for every dissatisfied customer who expresses their opinion, there are at least 20-100 dissatisfied customers who do not express their opinion but eventually leave. This is why a company/provider should take customer criticisms, including individual opinions, seriously.

 

42 minutes ago, hugeboss.5432 said:

is likely going to be very bias

Of course it is, just like your opinion about which direction the poll is biased is also biased.

 

[Zok.4956]

50 minutes ago, hugeboss.5432 said:

wvw players are no longer focused taxed with the insane gem transfer system like before (honestly, we were milked for years, so this is a big relief)

For regular server hoppers this is of course a big plus, because the WR now takes care of it for them. 

Even though some guilds did this regularly - which also made many imbalance problems worse - it was certainly only a small part of WvW players who changed servers more than once (if at all).

[Mabi black.1824]

10 hours ago, Cael.3960 said:

It's easy to be part of a community, you just have to care and make an effort. 

We have already dealt with this kind of reflection. If we look only at the community part, it is only to look at this problem in a limited way. It is not just a matter of wider community. I wish it were. It's a motivation/purpose talk about participating in a team/server game, while we've made the same concept of a team/server completely useless. Once again, the impression is that of participating in a useless team game. 

If you want to pretend you don't see this obstacle, if it's something that doesn't concern you, because you still manage to get involved in a team/server game format in this state, lucky you. Here we are just saying that for others of us it is no longer so. It's not something you should solve or something you should invest too, you just have to know that for other players it's like that. Pretending that this is a 'non-issue' is pretty pointless.

If the feeling is that of a useless team game, what do you expect? Will I put more hours of gameplay in your opinion? do I propose my tag opened more frequently in your opinion? Will you see me running to defend the tower 'cause it's my tower? you sum up friend. Don't complain about the scarcity of content though. while only there I watch you overturn an empty tower. And the fact that this slips completely on me, without meeting my involvement and my participation is exactly the point, the heart of the matter.

Edited August 1 by Mabi black.1824

[Andy.5981]

Voted - prefer old server system over the new one.

[Spiral.3724]

Just ask yourself, honestly, if Anet reversed this "beta" on Friday, and we all suddenly went back to servers, would you be happy, sad, or indifferent?

I would freaking CHEER! Like, "What a relief! It's over!"

I understand change is hard and most people don't like it, but I've tried giving this a chance and it just feels bad.

[InappropriateInnuendo.1395]

As someone who was on a dead server, this past two match ups in the restructuring beta have been great. I am not getting steamrolled most of the time and there are consistent commanders.

The idea of paying money repeatedly to band wagon under the old system turned me off of WvW.

[Mabi black.1824]

1 hour ago, Spiral.3724 said:

Just ask yourself, honestly, if Anet reversed this "beta" on Friday, and we all suddenly went back to servers, would you be happy, sad, or indifferent?

Too easy my friend. At this point I do not want one thing or the other. I want something new that unites all this. keeping this game, a team game. I would immediately throw this story of rebuilding teams every 4 weeks in the trash. and I will use WR 1 time a year to get a seasonal team/server format. If you ended up in the team you don't like, transfer. but with a new form of transfer. Transfer only by reservation when someone on the other side has booked a transfer. And then I also want a new points system, not this clockwork clown. Each server expresses a certain amount of hours of weekly gameplay. If we can really count them, let's use them, to get a believable competitive score for real. 

Honestly ask yourself which server won a weekly match. A server with 350 VPs and 100,000 hours of gameplay, or a server with 300 VPs and 50,000 hours of gameplay? ops sorry I forgot, it is certainly the server that won more frequently from 20.00 to 22.00 while they had twice as many players online. what a fool I am.😉

Edited August 2 by Mabi black.1824

[Cameirus.8407]

13 hours ago, Spiral.3724 said:

Just ask yourself, honestly, if Anet reversed this "beta" on Friday, and we all suddenly went back to servers, would you be happy, sad, or indifferent?

I would freaking CHEER! Like, "What a relief! It's over!"

I understand change is hard and most people don't like it, but I've tried giving this a chance and it just feels bad.

I'd be so happy.

[Kamsin.8541]

The old one too.

We need a real guilds alliance preselection that would cover 75% of the mcm population, instead we have one or two organized squads with lots of ffa lost on the maps. And the ffa population changes all the time, without attachment to a server, so it's worse.

[devious.4605]

Game mode is in a bad place right now.

[Veeber.3192]

On 8/2/2024 at 7:33 AM, Spiral.3724 said:

Just ask yourself, honestly, if Anet reversed this "beta" on Friday, and we all suddenly went back to servers, would you be happy, sad, or indifferent?

Be indifferent, I know how bad my server was. It would be back to 20 enemy ducks quacking their way around the maps while your groups try and cap a southern paper tower, fail and go to another maps to fail there too. No support.