Willbender Need NERF in Pvp

[Flowki.7194]

50 minutes ago, whooot.5784 said:

No problematic? Bruh, I still have ptsd from the previous scepter condi cata (when it was trully busted), it was one of the most brocken and easy build to play that I've ever seen in my gw2 life. I don't think we have the same definition of  "problematic" here =D.

A class that could facetanking you for eternity and condi bombimg you to death just by spammig AA with zero effort put into it .. IS problematic. At least it was, thanks to CMC for that 

Completely proving my point. All you think about when the word condi, or cata is mentioned, is condi cata, not power cata... or the multiple condi scepter specs across core, tempest or weaver, just condi cata. Did you even know there was a small but avid playerbase of hybrid tempests pre-signet change in both sPVP and WvW? Then came CMC with his brainded changes to signets, giving cata free stab while camping fire stance. Instead of removing catas ability to proc stab from signets, they nerfed the signet trait into the ground, and nerfed scepter condi into the ground. Tempest, weaver, and core, could not camp fire even with the signet trait, no stab = CC'd = you take dmg = you have to go into other attunements to mitigate = your damage dropped significantly, ontop of it being easily cleansed, as mostly fire/bleed. It took 1.5 year from that nerf to even see condi eles being used with any impaact on games, and power eles are border line meme now.

 

Also, "condi bomb" and ele should never be used in the same sentence, not even for condi cata.

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Myror.7521 said:

Please nerf all these bunker cheese out off the game that is not using a defensive amulet anet ^^

Not to say I told you so, but I told you so. The systematic nerfing of high skill floor/punishing specs, and the direct/indirect buffing of low risk/effort alternatives.. to the point multiple specs are effectively bunker status while using zerker, or comparable. GG.

Edited August 17 by Flowki.7194

[Myror.7521]

@Flowki.7194 its less the low effort and more the fact that u use complete Defence weapon on an full offensive stat comb ^^ infact they should maybe nerf the base healing from skills and buff the scaling by using the right stats^^

Edited August 17 by Myror.7521

[Flowki.7194]

26 minutes ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Flowki.7194 its less the low effort and more the fact that u use complete Defence weapon on an full offensive stat comb ^^ infact they should maybe nerf the base healing from skills and buff the scaling by using the right stats^^

I see that, but specs with moderate to low effort+high sustain+moderate and above damage, kills off the insentive to play specs that have genuine risk/fast death for error. Why wouldnt it?

Edited August 17 by Flowki.7194

[vilesoldier.9826]

1 hour ago, Flowki.7194 said:

I see that, but specs with moderate to low effort+high sustain+moderate and above damage, kills off the insentive to play specs that have genuine risk/fast death for error. Why wouldnt it?

 

"Why wouldn't it?" So close yet so far, every time 😞 

 

This is why ppl tell new players to stay away from ele in your first time. High skill floor aside, you can get so obsessed with everyone else's powerlevel that you forget to cultivate your own skill as a player. This has followed him through each spec he's picked up and discusses here, the goalposts are forever shifting. Overly-forgiving specs are a somber & inescapable fact of GW2; point out their strengths, rally for reasonable nerfs (also against bad nerfs), but don't forget that the responsibility to beat bad players fall mostly to you, the player.

 

Learning to beat bad players on forgiving specs is like half the fun, it feels so rewarding. A shame that Flowki never had the chance/skill/desire/discipline to get there, and I get the feeling in a "perfectly balanced" GW2 that he envisions, he would still find a way to complain about losing to the caliber of players he does now...

 

I lower my head in quiet prayer for you, Balance Saint 🙏

Edited August 17 by vilesoldier.9826

[Arheundel.6451]

5 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

 

That isn't entirely true. I stopped playing beacuse firstly, CMC destroyed non-problomatic scepter condi builds. Second, there were multiple other direct nerfs to ele, and indirect buffs to other specs (relics, weapons, hp reductions etc) the effort/risk/punishment no longer felt worth while on power. Despite the fact power scepter/hammer cata were meta, they were rarely played even then, people only seem to remember condi cata. Other sepcs that were not as difficult/risky to play, were becoming just as rewarding (lets say something like condi zerker).  The difficulty/risk/punishment is also the same reason why you don't see many heralds, holos, and vindis in current game.. they are not carry specs. Yet, you see on average, 2-4 reapers, 2-4 spbs per game, and more virts also, and certainly more WB than vindi/herald. I have seen this trend hold steady from S3 to p1. I am not trying to knock these specs out of existence, I am simply stating objective facts that the representations back up. It demonstrates that specs with lower difficulty, or risk, that are near/as effective as specs with higher difficulty, or risk, will dominate sPVP representation, regardless of meta status. This was true back in power cata meta, it was true during holo meta, and it is AGAIN true during vindi meta. The issue I have with this, is that the impact is now clear. Specs with higher risk/skill floor or underplayed, if they go meta, only a very small amount of players get good at them. Then, all the copers on B-class specs complain, the meta specs get nerfed, and the brainded specs get an indirect buff. Brainded meta inc.

 

My view is simple, if people want a spec to be more impactful (lets use reaper here) then expect to be taking more risk, or putting in more mechanical effort. But that isn't how the game works.. and spec diversity from a risk point of view has plumeted. Look at the main specs in use, put meta aside, and what you will see is an over abundence of specs that minimise effort, minismise risk, and maximise impact. Take condi thief on that part, giving them rediculous amounts of condi-pison on 2 fking buttons.. on a class that is alrealdy the lowest risk +1? Nothing at all toxic about that.

 

Btw, power vindi isnt really meta anymore (hot take for confusions). The game is shifting into bunker/condi.. and power vindi will do nothing with that unless p2. That is not a meta spec for 99% of the sPVP population. If you don't beleive me, play it for a week. Put aside the games you get blessed with noobs who never focus you, and youll see.

-Power heralds would teleport on target with sword 5 through walls doing massive damage, then infuse light or block/dash with staff.....you forget the meta where teams won tournaments with double/triple heralds

-Holo would CC aoe the target to hell while superspeed shooting around or running away, anything fails Elixir S and throw grenades behind you....again you forget when holo was meta, owning  every duel

- Vindicators need no introduction.

All the specs you mentioned were never high risk/high reward as you want others to believe, on the contrary, they were what you call "cheese meta" when they were at their prime, then they got nerfed and other builds took their place. You need to tell me when in the entire existence of this game: specs where you would die after 1-2 mistakes were ever ever meta as I assume that's what you call "high risk/high reward", but what you do now is to take obsolete specs and hold them on the high ground as paramount of balance...when those same specs in their time, they were exactly what you like to complain about now.

Power herald may be high risk/high reward in your mind now...it surely wasn't in 2015 where you'd get 2-3 power heralds per game and actually at that time, power herald was using shield on top of staff for even more bunkering mayhem

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, vilesoldier.9826 said:

 

"Why wouldn't it?" So close yet so far, every time 😞 

 

This is why ppl tell new players to stay away from ele in your first time. High skill floor aside, you can get so obsessed with everyone else's powerlevel that you forget to cultivate your own skill as a player. This has followed him through each spec he's picked up and discusses here, the goalposts are forever shifting. Overly-forgiving specs are a somber & inescapable fact of GW2; point out their strengths, rally for reasonable nerfs (also against bad nerfs), but don't forget that the responsibility to beat bad players fall mostly to you, the player.

 

Learning to beat bad players on forgiving specs is like half the fun, it feels so rewarding. A shame that Flowki never had the chance/skill/desire/discipline to get there, and I get the feeling in a "perfectly balanced" GW2 that he envisions, he would still find a way to complain about losing to the caliber of players he does now...

 

I lower my head in quiet prayer for you, Balance Saint 🙏

Oh I had you on ignore, can't imagine why.

 

In games like this there are two main elements, skill floor+effectiveness+risk/punishment, and skill ceiling+effectiveness+risk/punishment.

 

Spec A has a low skill floor, which lowers risk/punishment, increasing effectiveness at lower skill levels. It has a moderate skill ceiling, which limits effectiveness at higher skill levels, and can lead to more risk/punishment on a mechanical level. WB F3 jumps would be a good example of that.

 

Spec B has a higher skill floor, which increases risk/punishment, and reduces effectiveness at lower skill levels due to that. It has a higher skill ceiling, which can increase effectiveness at higher skill levels, reducing risk/punishment (less hard mechanical counter if played well). Holo I'll use as an example of that.

 

So run with that exmaple, At lower level, WB f3>renew>f3 will kitten on holo due to skill floor differences. At higher level, holo will kitten on WB due to skill ceiling cap <kite the f3>. That is not good for the lower skilled holo who may never have the time to get good enough, so will lose most fights to similar level WBs, just for picking WB. On the flip side, a high level WB gets farmed by a high level holo becuase of mechanical limitations. No matter what the WB does, skill cannot bridge that mechanical skill ceiling cap, which sucks for the WB. So within this example, raise the skill floor on WB through changes to F3 and resolotion applications, which can also raise the skill ceiling. Lower level holos get a more fair engagement vs WB, high level WBs get a more fair engagement vs holos.

 

This is just a loose example, but tell me why the ethos of it is so bad? People say themselves "just kite f3", which people do at higher level. Yet we see WB is an oppressive spec at lower level, where people don't kite, or are not playing specs that can kite it. WB is being hard capped by F3, which is a low skill floor jump ability. Thats why I see the need to also focus on skill floors, im not here just saying "nerf WB into the ground" or any spec for that matter. Read the posts, it is always from the position of "increase its skill floor if you want high skill ceiling rewards".

[Flowki.7194]

19 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

-Power heralds would teleport on target with sword 5 through walls doing massive damage, then infuse light or block/dash with staff.....you forget the meta where teams won tournaments with double/triple heralds

-Holo would CC aoe the target to hell while superspeed shooting around or running away, anything fails Elixir S and throw grenades behind you....again you forget when holo was meta, owning  every duel

- Vindicators need no introduction.

All the specs you mentioned were never high risk/high reward as you want others to believe, on the contrary, they were what you call "cheese meta" when they were at their prime, then they got nerfed and other builds took their place. You need to tell me when in the entire existence of this game: specs where you would die after 1-2 mistakes were ever ever meta as I assume that's what you call "high risk/high reward", but what you do now is to take obsolete specs and hold them on the high ground as paramount of balance...when those same specs in their time, they were exactly what you like to complain about now.

Power herald may be high risk/high reward in your mind now...it surely wasn't in 2015 where you'd get 2-3 power heralds per game and actually at that time, power herald was using shield on top of staff for even more bunkering mayhem

Why on earth would you use past examples to talk about the balance of a spec in the present? That is absolutely rediculous. Power herald in its current state, has a healthy dose of risk on it. Even vindi, despite its overperformance in damage, has a high enough skill floor/punishment rate, that you genuinely don't see vindis having an impact on games unless they are solid p1/2 players. Holo, can't remember the last time I seen a holo, anybody else? Power eles are none existant, hammer catas are litterally a mythical creature at this point, older power untamed with lb/gs.. even power chrono, where are all these specs? and what do they all have in common.

 

I honestly think most players that were on higher floor specs have just left the game. The playerbase remaining, are in an echo chamber of cope.. playing increasingly degen, power/sustain crept builds to chase plat badges that nobody who cares about real compitition, take seriously. I mean WP, you got a plat badge farming low golds on virt/spb/reaper/wb/druid. Well fking played.

 

 

Edited August 17 by Flowki.7194

[Arheundel.6451]

5 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Why on earth would you use past examples to talk about the balance of a spec in the present? That is absolutely rediculous. Power herald in its current state, has a healthy dose of risk on it. Even vindi, despite its overperformance in damage, has a high enough skill floor/punishment rate, that you genuinely don't see vindis having an impact on games unless they are solid p1/2 players. Holo, can't remember the last time I seen a holo, anybody else?

 

 

Just because they are specs now that can withstand the teleporting burst, that doesn't make power herald a bastion of supa skill like you think. I can run power herald with 'Charged Mists', staff and a shield with a tanky amulet, maybe add Jarlis instead than shiro and there we go, less dmg but "easier" to play and your point would be now? You are not a champion just because you want to run a marathon with both legs in a sack, if you want to compete in a sack...good for you but do not expect others or the whole game to be bended to your will.

My point is that you are not better than other simply because you want to kitten yourself, no build where you kitten yourself has ever be meta anywhere

[Sereath.1428]

@Flowki.7194

Even in 2020-2021 people like them were still fuming about Power Heralds, even if there were 1 for every 100 DHs. 😂 Popular forum ranger main was one of them too.
"For kittens sake. Power Herald is so braindead. Please nerf it into the ground, thats why the "best players play revenant, tend to win, etc" meme is real! I hate that Phase Traversal and Deathstrike combos keep farming me, since I love to tunnel vision other random people in the mean time. Fight on node!"

From 2022 to 2024, even after Vindicator gained access to shortbow, no one was playing it (and no, that doesnt mean that I considered it bad either). Hammer simply broke the whole class, it brought in similar braindead gameplay from other classes; DH moment.
"Nah, Herald is finally balanced. You are just bad. Now WB, thats a very interesting and elegant spec, and it should be buffed!"
"Two whole seconds of Infuse Light every 30 seconds is awesome mate! What kittening else do you want???"

Edited August 17 by Sereath.1428

[Flowki.7194]

5 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Just because they are specs now that can withstand the teleporting burst, that doesn't make power herald a bastion of supa skill like you think. I can run power herald with 'Charged Mists', staff and a shield with a tanky amulet, maybe add Jarlis instead than shiro and there we go, less dmg but "easier" to play and your point would be now? You are not a champion just because you want to run a marathon with both legs in a sack, if you want to compete in a sack...good for you but do not expect others or the whole game to be bended to your will.

My point is that you are not better than other simply because you want to kitten yourself, no build where you kitten yourself has ever be meta anywhere

 

Hang on wtf are you on about? I said RISK.. I did not say at any point that herald IS THE HARDEST SPEC IN THE GAME. If you expect any more responses from me then fking read and comprehend my posts before responding. Any spec that you take sustain/bunker stats on will get less risky to play.. but not neccerserilly easier to play on a mechanical level, please don't hit me with strawmans again.

Edited August 17 by Flowki.7194

[Arheundel.6451]

7 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

 

Hang on wtf are you on about? I said RISK.. I did not say at any point that herald IS THE HARDEST SPEC IN THE GAME. If you expect any more responses from me then fking read and comprehend my posts before responding. Any spec that you take sustain/bunker stats on will get less risky to play.. but not neccerserilly easier to play on a mechanical level, please don't hit me with any more strawmans.

I don't know how to make it easier for you to understand...your bias doesn't make you see the forest from the trees

[Flowki.7194]

8 minutes ago, Sereath.1428 said:

@Flowki.7194

Even in 2020-2021 people like them were still fuming about Power Heralds, even if there were 1 for every 100 DHs. 😂 Popular forum ranger main was one of them too.
"For kittens sake. Power Herald is so braindead. Please nerf it into the ground, thats why the "best players play revenant, tend to win, etc" meme is real! I hate that Phase Traversal and Deathstrike combos keep farming me, since I love to tunnel vision other random people in the mean time. Fight on node!"

From 2022 to 2024, even after Vindicator gained access to shortbow, no one was playing it. Hammer simply broke the whole class, it brought in similar braindead gameplay from other classes.
"Nah, Herald is finally balanced. You are just bad. Now WB, thats a very interesting and elegant spec, and it should be buffed!"
"Two whole seconds of Infuse Light every 30 seconds is awesome bro! What kittening else do you want???"

 

Youre singing to the quire. This trend is true of all the punishing specs, they are rarely seen, becuase they are rarely played.. yet the copers around here make out like every game has 3x of them (like vindi), which is ironic, becuase in reality, every game has 3x specs of what the person complaining is actually playing (like reaper). It really is an echo chamber of copers.

 

[coro.3176]

Here. you can all tell me I'm bad and my class is bad and my build is bad or whatever. It's true, but it's good to have video examples of fights.

I correctly anticipate the opener, block it. Try and get my elite down and take ~13k damage in the 1s it costs to do that. Dodge the next gap closer, desperately try and get a heal off before I just kittening die to an autoattack or something. Try and punch back a bit, but my attacks are hitting  for like 500-1k damage, and the WB is hitting me back 5x as hard. I get a couple condi to stick but I lost the trade and try to kite and not die while they tick.

In WvW, I win this fight easy because I can build tankier and take less from the bursts, which means I'm not in danger of getting 1-shot by literally anything they do. In PvP, I just get rekt and I feel like there's not much I can do here.

[Flowki.7194]

2 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

I don't know how to make it easier for you to understand...your bias doesn't make you see the forest from the trees

Please try, I promise you I will admit to any biases I have, if you can prove to me they are. Read that post below, and tell me what is bias about that, it is littearlly trying to demonstrate a fair play ethos at all skill levels, for all specs. Anet have shown they will make some mechanical changes as they did with DH trap mechanics (bad changes mind you).. so its not like they can't look at F3 and the spewing  out of crit cap resolotion.

 

37 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Oh I had you on ignore, can't imagine why.

 

In games like this there are two main elements, skill floor+effectiveness+risk/punishment, and skill ceiling+effectiveness+risk/punishment.

 

Spec A has a low skill floor, which lowers risk/punishment, increasing effectiveness at lower skill levels. It has a moderate skill ceiling, which limits effectiveness at higher skill levels, and can lead to more risk/punishment on a mechanical level. WB F3 jumps would be a good example of that.

 

Spec B has a higher skill floor, which increases risk/punishment, and reduces effectiveness at lower skill levels due to that. It has a higher skill ceiling, which can increase effectiveness at higher skill levels, reducing risk/punishment (less hard mechanical counter if played well). Holo I'll use as an example of that.

 

So run with that exmaple, At lower level, WB f3>renew>f3 will kitten on holo due to skill floor differences. At higher level, holo will kitten on WB due to skill ceiling cap <kite the f3>. That is not good for the lower skilled holo who may never have the time to get good enough, so will lose most fights to similar level WBs, just for picking WB. On the flip side, a high level WB gets farmed by a high level holo becuase of mechanical limitations. No matter what the WB does, skill cannot bridge that mechanical skill ceiling cap, which sucks for the WB. So within this example, raise the skill floor on WB through changes to F3 and resolotion applications, which can also raise the skill ceiling. Lower level holos get a more fair engagement vs WB, high level WBs get a more fair engagement vs holos.

 

This is just a loose example, but tell me why the ethos of it is so bad? People say themselves "just kite f3", which people do at higher level. Yet we see WB is an oppressive spec at lower level, where people don't kite, or are not playing specs that can kite it. WB is being hard capped by F3, which is a low skill floor jump ability. Thats why I see the need to also focus on skill floors, im not here just saying "nerf WB into the ground" or any spec for that matter. Read the posts, it is always from the position of "increase its skill floor if you want high skill ceiling rewards".

 

[vilesoldier.9826]

4 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Oh I had you on ignore, can't imagine why.

 

In games like this there are two main elements, skill floor+effectiveness+risk/punishment, and skill ceiling+effectiveness+risk/punishment.

 

Spec A has a low skill floor, which lowers risk/punishment, increasing effectiveness at lower skill levels. It has a moderate skill ceiling, which limits effectiveness at higher skill levels, and can lead to more risk/punishment on a mechanical level. WB F3 jumps would be a good example of that.

 

Spec B has a higher skill floor, which increases risk/punishment, and reduces effectiveness at lower skill levels due to that. It has a higher skill ceiling, which can increase effectiveness at higher skill levels, reducing risk/punishment (less hard mechanical counter if played well). Holo I'll use as an example of that.

 

So run with that exmaple, At lower level, WB f3>renew>f3 will kitten on holo due to skill floor differences. At higher level, holo will kitten on WB due to skill ceiling cap <kite the f3>. That is not good for the lower skilled holo who may never have the time to get good enough, so will lose most fights to similar level WBs, just for picking WB. On the flip side, a high level WB gets farmed by a high level holo becuase of mechanical limitations. No matter what the WB does, skill cannot bridge that mechanical skill ceiling cap, which sucks for the WB. So within this example, raise the skill floor on WB through changes to F3 and resolotion applications, which can also raise the skill ceiling. Lower level holos get a more fair engagement vs WB, high level WBs get a more fair engagement vs holos.

 

This is just a loose example, but tell me why the ethos of it is so bad? People say themselves "just kite f3", which people do at higher level. Yet we see WB is an oppressive spec at lower level, where people don't kite, or are not playing specs that can kite it. WB is being hard capped by F3, which is a low skill floor jump ability. Thats why I see the need to also focus on skill floors, im not here just saying "nerf WB into the ground" or any spec for that matter. Read the posts, it is always from the position of "increase its skill floor if you want high skill ceiling rewards".

 

Your ethos is bad because it's embarrassingly surface-level. "Two main elements", bruh you missed the secret third one: player skill 😂. A low level WB kitten on a low level Holo has less to do with "skill floor differences" and more to do with the Holo not understanding what f3 is functioning as. When low level players die to WB f3, they are very often full-unga trading. That is not a skill floor difference between classes, the Holo has poor decision-making. When people say "kite the f3", the important subtext is to develop a start>finish gameplan for what WBs want to do before you two meet. When you come across a WB in the wild, what key skills are you looking for Flowki? Can you anticipate that the WB wants to use f3 even if they haven't used it yet? Are you even aware what weapons they are holding? 

 

You acknowledge that the Holo hasn't had enough time to understand developing a gameplan for WB f3, so you must concede that the remedy should be time and careful consideration of decision-making. If I develop a strategy to effectively negate WB f3, has WB's skill floor suddenly changed? Is it now high skill floor because I can easily punish?

 

4 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

On the flip side, a high level WB gets farmed by a high level holo becuase of mechanical limitations. No matter what the WB does, skill cannot bridge that mechanical skill ceiling cap, which sucks for the WB.

 

Personal skill can bridge a lot of gaps, you clearly don't give it enough credit. I remember you once dismissed someone's advice to stow your weapon into a SpB full counter, because the SpB wasn't trying to dodge your abilities. SpB sustain and strengths aside, I can't tell you how cringe it is to let yourself make bad decisions just because your opponent does. The idea is to improve, Flowki. Not even for the tangible rewards, but for yourself and confidence as a competitor.

Edited August 17 by vilesoldier.9826

[vilesoldier.9826]

1 hour ago, coro.3176 said:

Here. you can all tell me I'm bad and my class is bad and my build is bad or whatever. It's true, but it's good to have video examples of fights.

I correctly anticipate the opener, block it. Try and get my elite down and take ~13k damage in the 1s it costs to do that. Dodge the next gap closer, desperately try and get a heal off before I just kittening die to an autoattack or something. Try and punch back a bit, but my attacks are hitting  for like 500-1k damage, and the WB is hitting me back 5x as hard. I get a couple condi to stick but I lost the trade and try to kite and not die while they tick.

In WvW, I win this fight easy because I can build tankier and take less from the bursts, which means I'm not in danger of getting 1-shot by literally anything they do. In PvP, I just get rekt and I feel like there's not much I can do here.

 

I think the biggest thing for you is learning what skills are crucial to dodge and which aren't. Good job blocking the opener, but every GS3 and F1 was directly tanked, even while you had dodges/mobility on hand. The dodge on Sw2 port looked cool, but ultimately is not a priority skill to dodge (likley better to just quick auto to clear blind). Panic is a real thing and takes practice, I could see it in a few of your wasted dodges and leaving your kits early. I don't think it's easy, but even in this short clip there's clues to improve your gameplay.

Edited August 17 by vilesoldier.9826

[coro.3176]

16 minutes ago, vilesoldier.9826 said:

 

I think the biggest thing for you is learning what skills are crucial to dodge and which aren't. Good job blocking the opener, but every GS3 and F1 was directly tanked, even while you had dodges/mobility on hand. The dodge on Sw2 port looked cool, but ultimately is not a priority skill to dodge (likley better to just quick auto to clear blind). Panic is a real thing and takes practice, I could see it in a few of your wasted dodges and leaving your kits early. I don't think it's easy, but even in this short clip there's clues to improve your gameplay.

For sure, and I appreciate the tips, but it still feels like they are threatening me about 10x as much as I am threatening them, for not even close to the same amount of effort. It's not like if I play that 100% perfectly I'm going to easily thrash them. Like, my skills just don't work, and theirs work way too well. Is that not the definition of OP and needs nerf?

Usually a glass cannon can hit that hard, but also is very vulnterable to counterattack. WB hits that hard while still being defensive.

[vilesoldier.9826]

6 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

For sure, and I appreciate the tips, but it still feels like they are threatening me about 10x as much as I am threatening them, for not even close to the same amount of effort. It's not like if I play that 100% perfectly I'm going to easily thrash them. Like, my skills just don't work, and theirs work way too well. Is that not the definition of OP and needs nerf?

Usually a glass cannon can hit that hard, but also is very vulnterable to counterattack. WB hits that hard while still being defensive.

 

I understand the sentiment really (fighting WB without a block is dark!), but even if you resign to calling out WB for being 'OP', you still have to contend with them daily until Anet decides its worth taking a look (if they even do it + do it correctly). Figuring out timing/decision-making solutions for these small interactions will a) get your better equipped to beat bad WBs today and b) make you familiar with WB mechanics so you don't get meme'd even if they get nerfed.

 

I'd definitely advise against the easy road of thinking "If I just switched to a stronger build with more stats, I'd destroy". It's short-sighted and leaves you vulnerable to players who actually took the time to learn your build. Learn the matchup first, then switch to a stronger build 😉 Also winning is overrated, learning is more important

 

tldr; complaining is healthy & fine, just do a little homework on the side too for the wb peepos 

Edited August 18 by vilesoldier.9826

[Saiyan.1704]

6 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

Here. you can all tell me I'm bad and my class is bad and my build is bad or whatever. It's true, but it's good to have video examples of fights.

I correctly anticipate the opener, block it. Try and get my elite down and take ~13k damage in the 1s it costs to do that. Dodge the next gap closer, desperately try and get a heal off before I just kittening die to an autoattack or something. Try and punch back a bit, but my attacks are hitting  for like 500-1k damage, and the WB is hitting me back 5x as hard. I get a couple condi to stick but I lost the trade and try to kite and not die while they tick.

In WvW, I win this fight easy because I can build tankier and take less from the bursts, which means I'm not in danger of getting 1-shot by literally anything they do. In PvP, I just get rekt and I feel like there's not much I can do here.

I have to give you props for posting a video though... at least we have a reference (and a bar) of what players are doing wrong when they engage a WB.

• Don't ever walk backwards, especially when you know a burst class is engaging you and actively pursuing you. You may be able to facetank what ever you want in WvW but there's mechanical plays that you absolutely need to practice when in PvP.
• Get off of that condi spec. WB (guards in general) can have a lot of cleanses... unless you are on a condi spec that can consistently beat Wb's or something-- I've seen Mechs be tankish on a condi build but no clue what they run.

Like others have said, you took a lot of damage to the face when you should have been kiting. Break out of the habit of walking backwards and it is perfectly OK to leave the node completely if it means you're not going to die.

 

5 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

For sure, and I appreciate the tips, but it still feels like they are threatening me about 10x as much as I am threatening them, for not even close to the same amount of effort.

Your pvp build is glass with 0 damage. The WB you fought is glass but deals a LOT of damage if you let it happen. I highly recommend you picking up Scrapper or Holo. You can pressure a WB back and even counter play them in the same manner as what happened to you in that video. Playing power scrapper/holo is more effort but it's far more rewarding in PvP.

If you absolutely want to be tank + condi, go Mech. There's a tanky condi build running around that's capable of hitting Plat.

[arazoth.7290]

7 hours ago, Sereath.1428 said:

@Flowki.7194


From 2022 to 2024, even after Vindicator gained access to shortbow, no one was playing it 

butttttttt, I am 🥲 unless spear becomes better 😂. I wonder full ranged condi build 🤔 ohwell that's for Tuesday 

Edited August 18 by arazoth.7290

[arazoth.7290]

7 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

Here. you can all tell me I'm bad and my class is bad and my build is bad or whatever. It's true, but it's good to have video examples of fights.

I correctly anticipate the opener, block it. Try and get my elite down and take ~13k damage in the 1s it costs to do that. Dodge the next gap closer, desperately try and get a heal off before I just kittening die to an autoattack or something. Try and punch back a bit, but my attacks are hitting  for like 500-1k damage, and the WB is hitting me back 5x as hard. I get a couple condi to stick but I lost the trade and try to kite and not die while they tick.

In WvW, I win this fight easy because I can build tankier and take less from the bursts, which means I'm not in danger of getting 1-shot by literally anything they do. In PvP, I just get rekt and I feel like there's not much I can do here.

You didn't use your rocket boots to kite. Try to see if he follows and wastes some mobility damage attack teles/charge while you kite some pressure from ranged when close blocks dodges some bigger aoe pressure ect. If he then choses to cap some node, ranged on him so that he has to get out, chase or stay hiding, don't get caught in him trying to lure you :).

Oh yea if I recognize weapon offhand skill right, you're not using shield for little more defense sustain/cc in ur build

For the rest I haven't played engi enough to give further advice 😂

Edited August 18 by arazoth.7290

[Arheundel.6451]

11 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

Here. you can all tell me I'm bad and my class is bad and my build is bad or whatever. It's true, but it's good to have video examples of fights.

I correctly anticipate the opener, block it. Try and get my elite down and take ~13k damage in the 1s it costs to do that. Dodge the next gap closer, desperately try and get a heal off before I just kittening die to an autoattack or something. Try and punch back a bit, but my attacks are hitting  for like 500-1k damage, and the WB is hitting me back 5x as hard. I get a couple condi to stick but I lost the trade and try to kite and not die while they tick.

In WvW, I win this fight easy because I can build tankier and take less from the bursts, which means I'm not in danger of getting 1-shot by literally anything they do. In PvP, I just get rekt and I feel like there's not much I can do here.

The fact that you post a video, open to criticism already makes you a far better player than the majority. Dodging WB consistently is no easy feat and you did a good job overall, the WB was overly aggressive and you would have won if using tankier stats

[KrHome.1920]

On 8/17/2024 at 8:58 PM, coro.3176 said:

Here. you can all tell me I'm bad and my class is bad and my build is bad or whatever. It's true, but it's good to have video examples of fights.

I correctly anticipate the opener, block it. Try and get my elite down and take ~13k damage in the 1s it costs to do that. Dodge the next gap closer, desperately try and get a heal off before I just kittening die to an autoattack or something. Try and punch back a bit, but my attacks are hitting  for like 500-1k damage, and the WB is hitting me back 5x as hard. I get a couple condi to stick but I lost the trade and try to kite and not die while they tick.

In WvW, I win this fight easy because I can build tankier and take less from the bursts, which means I'm not in danger of getting 1-shot by literally anything they do. In PvP, I just get rekt and I feel like there's not much I can do here.

Since no one got really specific, here comes a specific comment to the situation in that video:

1. You just kite him until his stability is gone, which is at second 16 in the video. Up to this point all you do is avoid his damage by wasting as less of your ressources as possible, which is why running in circles is the best strategy. You should have left that node for a moment.

2. At second 17 in the video you should have used a cc and burst combo.

3. When he then pops his defense (elite skill etc.) you run in circles again. Don't waste your skills at this point.

4. When he is vulnerable again => cc and burst

Every single willbender fight looks like this.

Edited August 19 by KrHome.1920

[WingSwipe.3084]

"Just kite the WB and just run away during the 10 seconds burst window" with:

• 20 seconds of swiftness.
• Three shadowsteps
• Two rushes from virtues.
• A leap on their greatsword 3.
• A pull on greatsword 5.
• Two shadowsteps on swords.

"Hope you brought enough evades/blocks/barrier/immunity/distortion for the 10 second stat check, lmao."