Why no stories about Playable Races in new expansions?

[wolfof.1842]

6 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

The driving individuals of the centaur war are dead. Caudecus sabotaging the Seraph and fueling Centaur hate, and the war chief Ugolth who was forcing the other tribes to partake in the war.

The war may not "Be over" officially, but it is very much a far cry from what it was at the start of the personal story.

Ok, like I say humans had lot of story in past expansions anyway so then just focus on other races.

Look at this:

• Charr. Ascalon. Sohothin. Magdaer:
  "It is said that if either Magdaer or Sohothin returns to Ascalon City in the hands of the rightful king of Ascalon, then the Ascalonian spirits will finally be put to rest."
  In 1325 AE, Eir Stegalkin retrieved Magdaer from the Ascalonian Catacombs, intending to have it reforged for Logan Thackeray. The sword has not been seen since.

Like... what?! This is major history of human and Charr right in the capital of playable race. 

Save Ascalon, reverse the foefire curse. If this is not enough for a mini expansion I don't know what is. 

So why we deal with random wizards and monsters or White Mantle again in middle of nowhere, instead of major story of a playable race in their capital region?

[Imba.9451]

57 minutes ago, wolfof.1842 said:

Ok, like I say humans had lot of story in past expansions anyway so then just focus on other races.

Look at this:

• Charr. Ascalon. Sohothin. Magdaer:
  "It is said that if either Magdaer or Sohothin returns to Ascalon City in the hands of the rightful king of Ascalon, then the Ascalonian spirits will finally be put to rest."
  In 1325 AE, Eir Stegalkin retrieved Magdaer from the Ascalonian Catacombs, intending to have it reforged for Logan Thackeray. The sword has not been seen since.

Like... what?! This is major history of human and Charr right in the capital of playable race. 

Save Ascalon, reverse the foefire curse. If this is not enough for a mini expansion I don't know what is. 

So why we deal with random wizards and monsters or White Mantle again in middle of nowhere, instead of major story of a playable race in their capital region?

I get where you are coming from. I would like this storythread be picked up again as well. But not because it's tied to a race, but because it's interesting.

And even then, considering the Titans and Mursaat are a HUGE factor in human and charr history, you kinda got your wish.

[wolfof.1842]

1 hour ago, Imba.9451 said:

I get where you are coming from. I would like this storythread be picked up again as well. But not because it's tied to a race, but because it's interesting.

And even then, considering the Titans and Mursaat are a HUGE factor in human and charr history, you kinda got your wish.

only in theory... because Titans had 0 mention and relevance in GW2 anymore. They were gone, it's in the past.

Don't need to bring everything back another time... or what's next: undead prince Rurik coming back for 3rd time just so he appear in GW2 too?

• Season 3 returned White Mantle, Livia, revive the last Mursaat Lazarus and defeated it again. 
• SotO: another Mursaat! more Livia!
• Janthir: White Mantle! Mursaat! Livia! Titans?

Let dead be dead and continue one of many active GW2 stories instead.
there is so much else to write about, no need to revive/return/repeat old things over and over again.

One theme each expansion. Finish and move on to next one.
Like that you have variety of races, characters, plot. 

Edited August 27 by wolfof.1842

[EdwinLi.1284]

12 hours ago, wolfof.1842 said:

It has something to do with the races but it's not the main story active right now in GW2.
Titans were gone already, only little side note in Charr tutorial:

"With engines of destruction, we have killed our gods."

Done, over, no need to revive White Mantle, Mursaat, Caudecus, Lazarus again and again... like Season 3 did already. 

 

I think you have a misconception with this quote.

This a figuratively, not literally. The Charr removed the Titan's influence on their society with only the Flame Legion worshipping them. As a religion, they are dead but as actual beings they were never wiped out as a species. 

The only ones wiped out was the Titans that served Abaddon and kept in check from being made again by Kormir when she became a God by preventing the Foundry of Failed Creation from being used again.

Forgotten recorded documents stating that the Titans are Mist origin beings from deep in the Mists just like them with the Ancient Titans being just as old or older than their race as stated back in GW1. A small little lore that many people tend to forget or miss due to how it was never expanded on.

So while the Titans loyal and created to Abaddon are eliminated, the Ancient Titans from deep in the Mists that never joined Abaddon remained. However, with Kormir and the other Gods gone, they have also left everything without any guards to prevent them from being used for dangerous reasons.

I suspect the return of the Titans in this expansion is either the Ancient Titans finally arriving into Tyria because of how now it is a literal magnet for everything in the Mist as was mentioned in the Prologue or with Kormir gone someone or something has started up the Foundry of Failed Creation to create Titans for his or her grand plans.

However, considering how it was mentioned beings from deep in the Mists are being attracted to Tyria, I am more on the side that the Titans we are facing now are the Ancient Titans from their actual home deep in the Mist which would explain why they are smarter than the Titans that were created by The Foundry of Failed Creations. 

Edited August 27 by EdwinLi.1284

[draxynnic.3719]

I'm not sure these titans are actually smarter. The story always relied on Abaddon's titans being able to communicate, including teaching the Flame Legion shamans how to copy the Cauldrons of Cataclysm and manipulating them into attacking all of the human kingdoms focusing on Orr. We didn't see them communicating in-game, but (particularly in Prophecies) we also didn't get much communication from other enemies that we knew to be sapient either. The titans referring to themselves as "godspawn" also implies that they are still somehow connected to the gods.

Regarding the centaur war: That would pretty much just be a mopup. The centaurs only had the success they did on release because Caudecus had riled them up and then sabotaged Kryta's defences as part of his Palpatine ploy. It was pretty heavily telegraphed even on release that the centaurs were only a credible threat as a result of internal intrigue, including having a centaur NPC pointing out that if a charr-human alliance was formalised (and we've seen strong evidence of that having occurred in practice even before the treaty was formalised) that the centaur war effort was just about done and suing for peace and finding a liveable compromise would be their only viable option. There's not really anything left in that arc to be worth the PC's time unless the centaurs found some powerful sponsor that allowed them to reverse the trend. And it's clearly completely impossible that a class of beings that previously reversed a balance of power between humans and charr where the humans were inexorably pushing the charr further and further away from Ascalon's borders could possibly be of concern for humans when they suddenly appear again in a region close to centaur territory.

[Kalavier.1097]

6 hours ago, wolfof.1842 said:

Ok, like I say humans had lot of story in past expansions anyway so then just focus on other races.

Look at this:

• Charr. Ascalon. Sohothin. Magdaer:
  "It is said that if either Magdaer or Sohothin returns to Ascalon City in the hands of the rightful king of Ascalon, then the Ascalonian spirits will finally be put to rest."
  In 1325 AE, Eir Stegalkin retrieved Magdaer from the Ascalonian Catacombs, intending to have it reforged for Logan Thackeray. The sword has not been seen since.

Like... what?! This is major history of human and Charr right in the capital of playable race. 

Save Ascalon, reverse the foefire curse. If this is not enough for a mini expansion I don't know what is. 

So why we deal with random wizards and monsters or White Mantle again in middle of nowhere, instead of major story of a playable race in their capital region?

As said, Anet is very, very much loath to go do what happened to Kessex Hills/LA again where they have several different "versions" of the map active at once or are directly changing a core map.

Banishing the foefire is a huge story beat that would affect basically the entire Ascalon map, besides Fields of Ruin and Fireheart Rise. Anet does not what to do a "Guild wars 2, cataclysm" and make a release that either rebuilds an entire region in GW2, or split the population with a huge chunk of the playerbase on "Old, ghost ascalon" or "New, cleansed ascalon" and unable to help each other.

[EdwinLi.1284]

57 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

As said, Anet is very, very much loath to go do what happened to Kessex Hills/LA again where they have several different "versions" of the map active at once or are directly changing a core map.

Banishing the foefire is a huge story beat that would affect basically the entire Ascalon map, besides Fields of Ruin and Fireheart Rise. Anet does not what to do a "Guild wars 2, cataclysm" and make a release that either rebuilds an entire region in GW2, or split the population with a huge chunk of the playerbase on "Old, ghost ascalon" or "New, cleansed ascalon" and unable to help each other.

I will not say Foefire may not be out of the question at some level for the future Charr expansion they set up. 

My best guess is that part of the Charr expansion may involve reducing the influence of the FoeFire but not completely removing it. Most likely like the Kryptis situation, they mostly resolve the FoeFire issue by maybe freeing the Ghosts from the brainwashing the Foefire has on them but certain small groups still remain hostile to the Charr and continue their war while most are at peace and move on or unable to move on but remain in Ascalon creating a new issue about what to do with the Ascalonian Ghosts that are seeking to move on with their "after"life as Ghost now free to find new life in the world. They will be completely leaderless unless one of them steps up to lead if the Ghosts are free from the Foefire brainwashing.

Magdaer plot still remain in a big cliffhanger and Rytlock still has not figure out how to get Magdaer and Sohothin to work so they can resolve the Foefire issue.

However, the interesting little detail I think most people may have forgotten is what happened when Rytlock last time tried to resolve the Foefire issue being it went into the Mist instead of ending the Foefire threat.

There is maybe a connection to the current situation with the Mist or some kind of involvement that may tie in the Foefire to the current growing issue with the Mist in this new story arc. I suspect Rytlock may know something related to the Foefire and the Mist but he never told anyone.

 

Edited August 27 by EdwinLi.1284

[Imba.9451]

7 hours ago, wolfof.1842 said:

only in theory... because Titans had 0 mention and relevance in GW2 anymore. They were gone, it's in the past.

Don't need to bring everything back another time... or what's next: undead prince Rurik coming back for 3rd time just so he appear in GW2 too?

• Season 3 returned White Mantle, Livia, revive the last Mursaat Lazarus and defeated it again. 
• SotO: another Mursaat! more Livia!
• Janthir: White Mantle! Mursaat! Livia! Titans?

Let dead be dead and continue one of many active GW2 stories instead.
there is so much else to write about, no need to revive/return/repeat old things over and over again.

One theme each expansion. Finish and move on to next one.
Like that you have variety of races, characters, plot. 

First: I dunno really like the idea of "one theme each expansion". GW2 is a live service with a developing world. Simply telling one off stories would hurt the integrity and believability of that world.

Also: I always defended the hill that Lazarus was the Last Mursaat in Tyria, as thats why the Eye vanished. Also, from a storytelling perspective, having a whole race just be bloodthirstiy, genocidal psychopaths would, once again, just be incredibly tropey.

 

You may not like the current story. Thats fine. I know how that feels, as I have been on the complaining side for MANY storybeats in this game. Guess thats just the way it goes. But as for JW: I like it. It's a nice setup. It has tons of interesting lore, that made me WANT to explore. A feeling I have missed in this game for a long time.

Edited August 27 by Imba.9451

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

6 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

As said, Anet is very, very much loath to go do what happened to Kessex Hills/LA again where they have several different "versions" of the map active at once or are directly changing a core map.

Banishing the foefire is a huge story beat that would affect basically the entire Ascalon map, besides Fields of Ruin and Fireheart Rise. Anet does not what to do a "Guild wars 2, cataclysm" and make a release that either rebuilds an entire region in GW2, or split the population with a huge chunk of the playerbase on "Old, ghost ascalon" or "New, cleansed ascalon" and unable to help each other.

Getting rid of the effects of the Foefire wouldn't mess with anything in past maps because all the maps are time locked to whatever release they first came out in. No one questions why the White Mantel are still warring in Lake Doric despite later releases saying they were completely wiped out etc. etc.

[Kalavier.1097]

3 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Getting rid of the effects of the Foefire wouldn't mess with anything in past maps because all the maps are time locked to whatever release they first came out in. No one questions why the White Mantel are still warring in Lake Doric despite later releases saying they were completely wiped out etc. etc.

This is completely misinterpreting what I'm saying though.

Having an expac or major storyline about totally ending the foefire would involve the core Ascalon maps, as that is where foefire ghosts are. Unless one wants them to go "Oh yeah, we finished the anti-foefire ritual off-screen, the ghosts are totally gone" which nobody would enjoy.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

This is completely misinterpreting what I'm saying though.

Having an expac or major storyline about totally ending the foefire would involve the core Ascalon maps, as that is where foefire ghosts are. Unless one wants them to go "Oh yeah, we finished the anti-foefire ritual off-screen, the ghosts are totally gone" which nobody would enjoy.

Except the ghosts cover almost all of Ascalon, and there's parts of Ascalon, such as those in the Blazeridge Mountains, that we've never seen. Like Drascir, the original capital of Ascalon, it off the map, and could have ghosts also.

You could easily do an expansion focused on the Charr, dealing with Bangar, the remnants of the Renegades/Separatists/Dominion, and getting rid of the ghosts, with the final map being around Drascir, and using the ritual to clean up the ghosts there.

[Kalavier.1097]

44 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Except the ghosts cover almost all of Ascalon, and there's parts of Ascalon, such as those in the Blazeridge Mountains, that we've never seen. Like Drascir, the original capital of Ascalon, it off the map, and could have ghosts also.

You could easily do an expansion focused on the Charr, dealing with Bangar, the remnants of the Renegades/Separatists/Dominion, and getting rid of the ghosts, with the final map being around Drascir, and using the ritual to clean up the ghosts there.

Drascir is just off iron marches. Ghosts cover most of ascalon but are highly concentrated around the great wall.

The ritual to cleanse the foefire (as it's known) entirely requires it to be in Ascalon city, so they'd have to go there for it. 

It's far more likely any Charr focused expansions would be entirely in the Ash legion lands which are totally unexplored, or the rest of the blood legion lands up north (or both) and dealing with the Khan-Ur elections. Rather then a drastic event that would take place almost entirely in the core regions of GW2 and rewrite the map there. Yes, they could do like they do for the brand and have it be entirely cleansed but we don't see it, but we weren't involved in cleansing the brand, that was purely Aurene.

[wolfof.1842]

2 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Drascir is just off iron marches. Ghosts cover most of ascalon but are highly concentrated around the great wall.

The ritual to cleanse the foefire (as it's known) entirely requires it to be in Ascalon city, so they'd have to go there for it. 

It's far more likely any Charr focused expansions would be entirely in the Ash legion lands which are totally unexplored, or the rest of the blood legion lands up north (or both) and dealing with the Khan-Ur elections. Rather then a drastic event that would take place almost entirely in the core regions of GW2 and rewrite the map there. Yes, they could do like they do for the brand and have it be entirely cleansed but we don't see it, but we weren't involved in cleansing the brand, that was purely Aurene.

So we just forget Ascalon, Foefire, Magdaer, human ghosts... throw it all in the trash?

They can write the story any way they want without changing maps, f. example:

• First try of ritual fails, only made it worse:
  Ghosts even stronger, higher numbers, spread out and conquer more, far regions of Ascalon. 
  • new Ascalon maps: Regent Valley, Drascir Hinterlands,...
  • Final story instance: Ascalon City
    (like Dragonstorm Arena, instanced)

Like that you can have instanced story finale in Ascalon City with 10-50 player squad without change of old map.
now Anet can combine, expand and finish Foefire story. 

Professional writers, devs can do this better than amateur like me...

Edited August 27 by wolfof.1842

[Kalavier.1097]

29 minutes ago, wolfof.1842 said:

So we just forget Ascalon, Foefire, Magdaer, human ghosts... throw it all in the trash?

They can write the story any way they want without changing maps, f. example:

• First try of ritual fails, only made it worse:
  Ghosts even stronger, higher numbers, spread out and conquer more, far regions of Ascalon. 
  • new Ascalon maps: Regent Valley, Drascir Hinterlands,...
  • Final story instance: Ascalon City
    (like Dragonstorm Arena, instanced)

Like that you can have instanced story finale in Ascalon City with 10-50 player squad without change of old map.
now Anet can combine, expand and finish Foefire story. 

Professional writers, devs can do this better than amateur like me...

Nobody has said anything about throwing it in the trash. I'm simply pointing out that Anet, post season 1, has expressed a desire that they'd rather introduce a new map then to rebuild another, since they don't phase maps to split populations. We are more likely to explore Ash legion/Blood legion lands and the Khan-ur stuff first.

Also technically, first try of the ritual succeeded, but sucked Rytlock into the mists and depowered his sword. 

 

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

2 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

The ritual to cleanse the foefire (as it's known) entirely requires it to be in Ascalon city, so they'd have to go there for it.

I'm honestly not sure where you got this idea but its completely, and utterly, incorrect. All that is said in LWS2 is that the ritual needs to be done in a place of power. Rytlok did it in the old duke's cellars, which are far outside what was Ascalon city, and the ritual was working.

At no point do they say Ascalon City is involved.

[EdwinLi.1284]

1 hour ago, wolfof.1842 said:

So we just forget Ascalon, Foefire, Magdaer, human ghosts... throw it all in the trash?

They can write the story any way they want without changing maps, f. example:

• First try of ritual fails, only made it worse:
  Ghosts even stronger, higher numbers, spread out and conquer more, far regions of Ascalon. 
  • new Ascalon maps: Regent Valley, Drascir Hinterlands,...
  • Final story instance: Ascalon City
    (like Dragonstorm Arena, instanced)

Like that you can have instanced story finale in Ascalon City with 10-50 player squad without change of old map.
now Anet can combine, expand and finish Foefire story. 

Professional writers, devs can do this better than amateur like me...

There are other ways they can continue the Foefire storyline without needing to affect old maps or make a separate instance of a old map. 

Anet always have GW2 maps set in a time lock in the timeline but they manage to show progress through creating new Maps and through Main story instances.

Right now the Foefire story been at a very big cliffhanger since Rytlock's last attempt to deal with it.

A cliffhanger that left a lot of questions involving what did Rytlock see in the Mist and why did Sohothin go to the Mist.

I suspect we may get the answer to this and conclusion to the Foefire storyline in this Mist Saga in one of the Expansion involving what Rytlock saw and found in the Mists due to Sohothin and the mysterious powers of Sohothin and Magdaer have that Balthazar used to create them from the Mist.

With the Foefire being Mist related, it maybe involved in the future expansions but most likely the Charr expansion. I won't be surprised if they make up a lore stating that the rise in Magic has also increased the Foefire's influence to the point that the Ascalonian Ghost can now invade the Charr Homeland so they set up the Ascalonian Ghosts as one of the antagonists for the Charr expansion. Along with having the Charr expansion also focus on exploring the nature of the Foefire due to its Mist origin.

 

18 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

I'm honestly not sure where you got this idea but its completely, and utterly, incorrect. All that is said in LWS2 is that the ritual needs to be done in a place of power. Rytlok did it in the old duke's cellars, which are far outside what was Ascalon city, and the ritual was working.

At no point do they say Ascalon City is involved.

I think he is confusing the old lore about how Sohothin and Magdaer need to be return to Ascalon City to break the curse. A old lore I think most have forgotten about considering it was the established ingame rumor for NPCs who believed that was the way to break the curse of the Foefire before GW2. It was never follow up on of course since Rytlock went on to attempt ending the Foefire with Sohothin alone and we never seen Magdaer after Eir took it to be repaired.

Magdaer was originally meant to go to Logan as Eir way to reforge Logan and Rytlock's friendship but they never follow up on it.

If this rumor end up being true ingame then the only way the Foefire can be reduced (though obviously not completely removed) to a point most Ascalonian Ghosts are gone but some remain due to their personal hatred, then we may see the Charr expansion also involve Logan obtaining Magdaer finally to help Rytlock resolve the Foefire Crisis.

Not to mention with it being a gift from Balthazar to Ascalonians, I won't be surprised if Sohothin and Magdaer play a important role later in the Mist Saga storyline. We never did learn how Balthazar had these sword created. 

Edited August 27 by EdwinLi.1284

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

I'm honestly not sure where you got this idea but its completely, and utterly, incorrect. All that is said in LWS2 is that the ritual needs to be done in a place of power. Rytlok did it in the old duke's cellars, which are far outside what was Ascalon city, and the ritual was working.

At no point do they say Ascalon City is involved.

Rytlock did a TEST of the ritual at Barridan's crypts, to see if they were on the right track. The test worked, but sucked the blade into the mists. It only reduced the ghostly presence near Black citadel, thus providing the Charr city with an easier time defending itself and more openings for them to come and go without issue. 

The actual legend is that it requires a human of Doric's lineage, with the crown, and with a specific, or either one of the blades. Ascalon city is literally the epicenter of the foefire, so it makes sense that an actual full cleansing would have to be there. Nothing says it has to be "Any place of power", it has to be specifically in a place of power related to the foefire ghosts. Guess where the single largest place of power is? oh my god, Ascalon city, the epicenter, where the king cast it!

1 hour ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

I think he is confusing the old lore about how Sohothin and Magdaer need to be return to Ascalon City to break the curse. A old lore I think most have forgotten about considering it was the established ingame rumor for NPCs who believed that was the way to break the curse of the Foefire before GW2. It was never follow up on of course since Rytlock went on to attempt ending the Foefire with Sohothin alone and we never seen Magdaer after Eir took it to be repaired.

Magdaer was originally meant to go to Logan as Eir way to reforge Logan and Rytlock's friendship but they never follow up on it.
 

There isn't any old lore that has been removed here. The legend is that it has to be a descendant of Doric, using one of the blades (specific one or either or isn't clarified) and having the complete crown of Ascalon. Only that can truly banish the foefire, is the legend.

 

edit: In general I'm approaching this from both a storytelling angle as well as a realistic angle for what Anet can do with the game. We know they are talking about Khan-Ur, not ghosts.

Edited August 27 by Kalavier.1097

[EdwinLi.1284]

2 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

 

 

edit: In general I'm approaching this from both a storytelling angle as well as a realistic angle for what Anet can do with the game. We know they are talking about Khan-Ur, not ghosts.

We know the Trial for the Khan-ur selection is going to happen but the condition still remain unclear. Situation wise, I think resolving the Foefire may end up becoming part of the Khan-Ur selection trials or atleast a event that unintentionally becomes a part of it due to some unpredicted situation caused by Tyria becoming very condense in Magic now. 

I suspect there are maybe other unforseen consequences that is involved with the rise in Magic and considering how Mist beings are so sensitive to it that it is attracting them from deep in the Mist, other things that have Mist origin that already exists in Tyria may also be affected in unforseen ways such as maybe the Foefire influence getting enhanced to a point the Ghosts of Ascalon can now attack the Charr homeland right when the trial for the next Khan-Ur is happening. Resulting in events needing them to resolve the Foefire issue but first need to learn more about Mist origins for it. 

Edited August 27 by EdwinLi.1284

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 8/25/2024 at 8:11 AM, wolfof.1842 said:

hello,

after the Dragons I thought the game expand the story of our playable races like Asura, Charr... but the last 2 expansions were:

1: Wizard, kryptis, mists
2: Kodan, titans...

I wonder they don't write about for example:

• origin of Asura in depths
• Charr defeat ghosts of Ascalon
• Sylvari discover Malyck tree

Why they don't make new expansions about main races and plot of GW2? instead of unknown wizards, brown kodan bears... 

hope you understand what I talk about

IBS seems to treat the ghost problem as a historical thing even though it was never solved, even mentioned being solved off-screen. That said, it's not a very viable plot for an expansion because there's no room for maps surrounding it.

Same with the Depths, really. Most of that was underneath maps already on the world map, and unless they've gotten the tech, overlapping world maps is tricky - or to use dev wording "makes our programmers cry", which is why the original Lake Doric, which wrapped around Divinity's Reach, was scrapped before release.

That said, the current overarching storyline is very clearly focused around old GW1 mysteries - the Wizard's Tower and Janthir in particular so far - as well as an overarching "threat from the Mists" concept. We might get more racially grounded plotlines after, like the frequently foreshadowed charr Khan-Ur situation, but I imagine it'll either play subplot to, or come after, the Mists / Astral Ward storyline ends.

On 8/25/2024 at 12:05 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think it kinda is about humans and charr - we're essentially getting further development of the White Mantle, mursaat, and titans that are fairly intimately tied into the human and charr story. The bearkin just happen to be the local inhabitants. It might also turn out that there's a reason Caithe is one of the main NPCs for this expansion. The story for the expansion still hasn't fully played out yet - in fact, it felt fairly anticlimactic compared to SotO.

It's also worth noting that the bearkin also seem to have debunked one of the theories about where the norn came from. That's progress in the form of pruning one theory without actually confirming the competing theory, but it's still progress.

While this expansion does have some strong human and charr lore to it, such is definitely a backdrop for the main plot of Mists, Titans, Kodan, and the Tyrian Alliance in Janthir Wilds.

I do find it kind of funny (in a sad way) that ArenaNet's writers keep going back and forth about the norn origin - one set of writers all but confirm they're devolved kodan, the other debunks that outright making it a mystery again. What's weird about this debunking is that IBS essentially had it established as so common a belief that even charr and Bjora Marches kodan would insult norn as "furless bears", and even had the Commander insinuate that kodan are just norn stuck in bear form, but in Janthir Wilds, people have known about the lowland kodan - including other kodan - for decades or even centuries. If it was such common knowledge that these lowland kodan existed, why did the kodan believe the Voiceless tribe became norn? 🤔

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 8/26/2024 at 4:30 PM, Kalavier.1097 said:

The driving individuals of the centaur war are dead. Caudecus sabotaging the Seraph and fueling Centaur hate, and the war chief Ugolth who was forcing the other tribes to partake in the war.

The war may not "Be over" officially, but it is very much a far cry from what it was at the start of the personal story.

The is very much untrue. The Centaur War has been going on since 300 AE. Do you really think that Ulgoth and Caudecus are the only things that kept the war going for 1,000 years, when they weren't even a century old?

The centaurs have been off-and-on warring because Krytans slowly took the land they were living on (and not all entirely to their own fault - Zhaitan, for example, forced Krytans northward; other situations harming relations were insane kings like Oswald Thorn who also soiled relations with the Caromi tengu). And in GW2's time, thanks to Zhaitan and Jormag, the centaurs were extremely limited in the available land they could live in; Ulgoth's hatred over the near genocide during the Modniir's failed instigated assault on the Eye of the North and Caudecus' machinations aside, there would be many motivators to keep the millennia long war going - racism runs deep, and many were hurt by the war. There's bound to be others on both sides who want to see the war continue.

Of course, in ArenaNet's modern writing, all such things are just the fault of specific conservative villains like Li and Bangar, so simply killing the last of them will surely solve all problems, somehow, I'm certain. Even though such doesn't address the key point of the Tamini's suffering - the lack of land in northern Kryta / southern Woodland Cascades. Modniir's land issues is taken care of by Jormag's death, more or less. Harathi still have their lack of lands from the Maguuma Jungle drying into the Maguuma Wastes, too, though.

On 8/27/2024 at 12:09 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Regarding the centaur war: That would pretty much just be a mopup. The centaurs only had the success they did on release because Caudecus had riled them up and then sabotaged Kryta's defences as part of his Palpatine ploy. It was pretty heavily telegraphed even on release that the centaurs were only a credible threat as a result of internal intrigue, including having a centaur NPC pointing out that if a charr-human alliance was formalised (and we've seen strong evidence of that having occurred in practice even before the treaty was formalised) that the centaur war effort was just about done and suing for peace and finding a liveable compromise would be their only viable option. There's not really anything left in that arc to be worth the PC's time unless the centaurs found some powerful sponsor that allowed them to reverse the trend. And it's clearly completely impossible that a class of beings that previously reversed a balance of power between humans and charr where the humans were inexorably pushing the charr further and further away from Ascalon's borders could possibly be of concern for humans when they suddenly appear again in a region close to centaur territory.

I would argue it is certainly possible for the Centaur War to be more than mere mop-up, though given the power creep of things, it would definitely serve as more of a backdrop to something larger. The best it'd get is the level of charr civil war during original-scope IBS, which means less than half the main focus time.

Given the last we saw it, the centaurs had learned how to harness and utilize Bloodstone magic thanks to the White Mantle, that knowledge wouldn't necessarily simply vanish, and who knows what additional benefits (or harm) they might have gotten since Mists shenanigans popped up. They do live pretty close to some confirmed mursaat / Wizard architecture, and there are still unaccounted Bloodstones to take note of. Not to mention the idea of remnant villain groups forming an alliance wouldn't be out of the possibility either - not in a Scarlet's Alliances sort of way of mixing two groups that shouldn't mix to get advancements in tech, but more of a Sinister Triad route where you got separate groups working together for mutual benefits of survival. Dominion, centaurs, and remnant Nightmare Court would make an interesting alliance; add in Inquest to the mix if it feels they need a magitech bonus to level the playing field.

But the Tyrian Alliance - assuming it doesn't fall apart - does feel like it'd be capable of quickly squashing any local territorial threat, truth be told. Kind of makes the smaller plotlines of Centaur War or Foefire ghosts seem... implausible to be a viable issue not quickly dealt with.

So it might be better to put the Centaur War and Foefire plotlines on the backburner for a hypothetical GW3.

Edited August 28 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[wolfof.1842]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

But the Tyrian Alliance - assuming it doesn't fall apart - does feel like it'd be capable of quickly squashing any local territorial threat, truth be told. Kind of makes the smaller plotlines of Centaur War or Foefire ghosts seem... implausible to be a viable issue not quickly dealt with.

So it might be better to put the Centaur War and Foefire plotlines on the backburner for a hypothetical GW3.

That sounds sad to me..

I remember after whole decade of world ending (Dragons) they want to turn intensity down and continue smaller stories?
But they just started world ending again, Kryptis, Titans, super-power Wizards, United Tyria! 

No place for cultural plots of Charr, humans, Asura, Sylvari anymore.
Centaurs no more threat, Ascalon stays destroyed haunted forever maybe. 

what a great end of development for major GW2 playable races story...

[draxynnic.3719]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The is very much untrue. The Centaur War has been going on since 300 AE. Do you really think that Ulgoth and Caudecus are the only things that kept the war going for 1,000 years, when they weren't even a century old?

The centaurs have been off-and-on warring because Krytans slowly took the land they were living on (and not all entirely to their own fault - Zhaitan, for example, forced Krytans northward; other situations harming relations were insane kings like Oswald Thorn who also soiled relations with the Caromi tengu). And in GW2's time, thanks to Zhaitan and Jormag, the centaurs were extremely limited in the available land they could live in; Ulgoth's hatred over the near genocide during the Modniir's failed instigated assault on the Eye of the North and Caudecus' machinations aside, there would be many motivators to keep the millennia long war going - racism runs deep, and many were hurt by the war. There's bound to be others on both sides who want to see the war continue.

Of course, in ArenaNet's modern writing, all such things are just the fault of specific conservative villains like Li and Bangar, so simply killing the last of them will surely solve all problems, somehow, I'm certain. Even though such doesn't address the key point of the Tamini's suffering - the lack of land in northern Kryta / southern Woodland Cascades. Modniir's land issues is taken care of by Jormag's death, more or less. Harathi still have their lack of lands from the Maguuma Jungle drying into the Maguuma Wastes, too, though.

I would argue it is certainly possible for the Centaur War to be more than mere mop-up, though given the power creep of things, it would definitely serve as more of a backdrop to something larger. The best it'd get is the level of charr civil war during original-scope IBS, which means less than half the main focus time.

Given the last we saw it, the centaurs had learned how to harness and utilize Bloodstone magic thanks to the White Mantle, that knowledge wouldn't necessarily simply vanish, and who knows what additional benefits (or harm) they might have gotten since Mists shenanigans popped up. They do live pretty close to some confirmed mursaat / Wizard architecture, and there are still unaccounted Bloodstones to take note of. Not to mention the idea of remnant villain groups forming an alliance wouldn't be out of the possibility either - not in a Scarlet's Alliances sort of way of mixing two groups that shouldn't mix to get advancements in tech, but more of a Sinister Triad route where you got separate groups working together for mutual benefits of survival. Dominion, centaurs, and remnant Nightmare Court would make an interesting alliance; add in Inquest to the mix if it feels they need a magitech bonus to level the playing field.

But the Tyrian Alliance - assuming it doesn't fall apart - does feel like it'd be capable of quickly squashing any local territorial threat, truth be told. Kind of makes the smaller plotlines of Centaur War or Foefire ghosts seem... implausible to be a viable issue not quickly dealt with.

So it might be better to put the Centaur War and Foefire plotlines on the backburner for a hypothetical GW3.

The thing is that the centaurs have been hostile to Kryta pretty much for as long as Kryta existed, because the centaurs think of Kryta as stolen centaur land... but for the overwhelming majority of Krytan history, they've been an irritant at best. Centaurs rampaging all across Kryta happened due to a combination of factors - additional tribes joining the conflict due to having to leave their own territories, Caudecus stirring them up, and then Caudecus fifth-columning Kryta to give the centaurs openings that they wouldn't have had otherwise. Now, Caudecus is gone, Kryta is arguably in a stronger position than before Caudecus started plotting due to new allies, some enemies becoming allies, and many of those that didn't being defeated. Given that centaurs have been minor irritants for most of the past thousand years, and the conditions that allowed the centaur invasion to happen have been removed while Kryta now has access to new weapons such as watchknights and airships, then outside of some gamechanger on the centaur side that either substantially boosts their power or causes them to pursue peace, they're probably going to go back to being a minor irritant at the border.

Doesn't mean that there can't be such a gamechanger, but in the meantime it's probably reasonable to view the centaurs as being similar to, say, naga for Cantha. They're there. They occasionally raid whatever they think they can get away with. But they're not an existential threat and, as a rule, they're mostly the responsibility of regular soldiers rather than dragonslayers.

Regarding the Foefire plotline: I could see that being resolved in GW2. ArenaNet have occasionally sent us back to old maps for story, I could see them making a story instance in Ascalon City or even the catacombs to represent completing the Foefire ritual. Doesn't need to be RFN though.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

47 minutes ago, wolfof.1842 said:

That sounds sad to me..

I remember after whole decade of world ending (Dragons) they want to turn intensity down and continue smaller stories?
But they just started world ending again, Kryptis, Titans, super-power Wizards, United Tyria! 

No place for cultural plots of Charr, humans, Asura, Sylvari anymore.
Centaurs no more threat, Ascalon stays destroyed haunted forever maybe. 

what a great end of development for major GW2 playable races story...

In a bit of fairness to ANet, the Kryptis and Titans aren't exactly world-ending. Unfortunately, having spent 10 years dealing with world-ending threats and conquering them, means that any threat that isn't world-ending either cannot receive the full scope of our resources (SotO handled this well with it being a "secret war"; Janthir... kind of but less so with it's "allies are divisive due to touchy topic"), or will be dealt with readily.

This means that any small time plot that gets picked up will either be deemed too small for the Alliance / Pact/ Ward to bother dealing with, or will serve as a backdrop to a larger threat - just as the Tyrian Alliance is a bit of a backdrop to the Titan threat.

What's worse to me is that the Tyrian Alliance is simply... not very realistic. Of course open hostilities wouldn't be an immediate thing, but outside of the leadership literally given their seats by the Commander (or defended their seats thanks to the Commander), the agendas and desires of each leader should be fundamentally different that makes an actual alliance hard to come by.

And to note I'm not saying "there's no room for racial focused plots", just that for them to be the sole or primary focus seems unlikely without upping the stakes beyond the reason of their scope. That said, it would match the ending of GW1 which was very bittersweet. The day was saved with Abaddon's death and Primordus going back to sleep, but Ascalon was still on fire, Kryta was still unresting, Cantha was falling to despotic rule, and Joko was still around waiting to strike.

51 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The thing is that the centaurs have been hostile to Kryta pretty much for as long as Kryta existed, because the centaurs think of Kryta as stolen centaur land... but for the overwhelming majority of Krytan history, they've been an irritant at best. Centaurs rampaging all across Kryta happened due to a combination of factors - additional tribes joining the conflict due to having to leave their own territories, Caudecus stirring them up, and then Caudecus fifth-columning Kryta to give the centaurs openings that they wouldn't have had otherwise. Now, Caudecus is gone, Kryta is arguably in a stronger position than before Caudecus started plotting due to new allies, some enemies becoming allies, and many of those that didn't being defeated. Given that centaurs have been minor irritants for most of the past thousand years, and the conditions that allowed the centaur invasion to happen have been removed while Kryta now has access to new weapons such as watchknights and airships, then outside of some gamechanger on the centaur side that either substantially boosts their power or causes them to pursue peace, they're probably going to go back to being a minor irritant at the border.

Doesn't mean that there can't be such a gamechanger, but in the meantime it's probably reasonable to view the centaurs as being similar to, say, naga for Cantha. They're there. They occasionally raid whatever they think they can get away with. But they're not an existential threat and, as a rule, they're mostly the responsibility of regular soldiers rather than dragonslayers.

Regarding the Foefire plotline: I could see that being resolved in GW2. ArenaNet have occasionally sent us back to old maps for story, I could see them making a story instance in Ascalon City or even the catacombs to represent completing the Foefire ritual. Doesn't need to be RFN though.

Like I said, the centaurs already got a game-changer back in Season 3. ANet just didn't go anywhere with it because the Kryta side of the plot ended in that very same episode without the centaurs handled.

And minor correction: Kryta was established 300+ years before the Centaur War began, technically speaking, via Mazdak, son of King Doric.

[draxynnic.3719]

12 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

What's worse to me is that the Tyrian Alliance is simply... not very realistic. Of course open hostilities wouldn't be an immediate thing, but outside of the leadership literally given their seats by the Commander (or defended their seats thanks to the Commander), the agendas and desires of each leader should be fundamentally different that makes an actual alliance hard to come by.

Eh, there's a degree to which this is true of any alliance, and yet sometimes they succeed. It's also possible for members of an alliance to agree to cooperate on matters of security while still competing on economic matters - something that we actually see between Ludo and Ihn.

12 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Like I said, the centaurs already got a game-changer back in Season 3. ANet just didn't go anywhere with it because the Kryta side of the plot ended in that very same episode without the centaurs handled.

The White Mantle had bloodstone enhancement and still lost. I think it's reasonable to say that whatever boosts they had from the bloodstone they received is probably not going to make up for humans having airships, watchknights, and possibly more (it's implied that jade tech production is kicking back up now they know dragonjade can be charged through ley lines). And while the fighting capabilities of the centaurs were augmented by bloodstone, from memory they also had the 'crazed' quality - while inflicting bloodstone madness on the centaurs suited the White Mantle who had contempt for them as anything other than cannon fodder (remember Caudecus' riddles?), widespread use of bloodstone as a combat drug would probably make the centaurs weaker as a threat in the long run rather than stronger.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

I wasn't thinking the centaurs would continue using the Bloodstone as a combatant drug, but rather more in ransacking nearby mursaat ruins for weapons to use in the same light as White Mantle. And while they didn't succeed in the long run (thanks to the Commander assassinating Caudecus), the White Mantle did have the upper hand for quite a while - including against airships and watchknights.

But yes, in of itself it wouldn't be enough of a game changer - which is where the idea of a return of the Sinister Triad situation comes in. But as said, the idea of the Centaur War being a focal point is... slim, to say the least. I'm half surprised we didn't get a report on an invitation to the alliance for the centaurs littered about in the Alliance meetings, like we did for the Largos, quaggans, and some other groups.