Mirage needs changes!

[Millian.9730]

I didn't come to present ideas, I came to present what needs to change.

• Imaginary Axes: This trait doesn't make much sense, why have a trait that only works with a specific weapon?
• Self-Deception: We already have so many ways to generate clones and this is the worst.
• Riddle of Sand: This trait is a joke, especially when you realize that your clones don't apply it. If it worked for clones, MAYBE it would be good on Condi Mirage in PvP/WvW.
• Mirage Mirror: It's not really a trait, but it's kind of sad to have something like this, don't we already have to worry about so many things during a fight? Having to go looking for Mirrors becomes almost an obstacle.
• Mirage Mantle: It's great in most cases, but the improvement for Scepter and Rifle is horrible.
• Phantasmal Seeking Axe: Again, a skill that only works for one weapon, why?
• Dune Cloak: In practice it's horrible, why would anyone use it?
• Nomad's Endurance: You get a condition buff, but not every build for Mirage is conditional, it should give some buff that works for all builds.
• Speed of Sand: This is a bad joke. If it lasted 1 second, MAYBE it would help in some way.

[Millian.9730]

Oh, I almost forgot. Mirage Advance (Utility) has a very high cast time for what it does.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

After the dagger, I want them to STOP making changes to Mirage. Entirely. Forever. It NEVER goes in our favor when they change Mirage.

[Curunen.8729]

48 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

After the dagger, I want them to STOP making changes to Mirage. Entirely. Forever. It NEVER goes in our favor when they change Mirage.

Coming right up, mirage F skills to get cast times and root you. Because tradeoffs 😄

/s

[Panda.1967]

On 8/28/2024 at 6:30 PM, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

After the dagger, I want them to STOP making changes to Mirage. Entirely. Forever. It NEVER goes in our favor when they change Mirage.

All the more reason for us to push for them to properly address the issues with the espec.

[Mell.4873]

7 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

All the more reason for us to push for them to properly address the issues with the espec.

I kind of agree mirage is in a great spot at the moment why change a good thing. Mesmer in general is the one stop shop for any game mode it is best is slot for alot of roles so why mess with that. 

Mirage in particular can easily take on multiple people in WvW and come out on top or retreat. 

[Gaiawolf.8261]

3 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I kind of agree mirage is in a great spot at the moment why change a good thing. Mesmer in general is the one stop shop for any game mode it is best is slot for alot of roles so why mess with that. 

Mirage in particular can easily take on multiple people in WvW and come out on top or retreat. 

It's not the best for zergs but serviceable if you watch your targets. It's pretty good for roaming and not too shabby in open world either. I'm kinda surprised people hate on it so much, except in instanced pve maybe, but it's fine in most of the game.

Edited September 1 by Gaiawolf.8261

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

Because all of the people who complain are all the people who don't PvP/WvW where Mirage truly shines and is actually a monster to fight against. Literally 9 out of 10 Mesmers you meet in these places are Mirage. In open world it absolutely still is the undisputed king of roaming. I can bet with money that some people don't even play anything other than the open world, and is so godawful even Mirage's survivability can't carry them, yet they keep echoing what the instanced PvE content crowd is spewing and Confuse react anyone who thinks otherwise. Mirage has problems, but weak is not 1 of them.

7 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I kind of agree mirage is in a great spot at the moment why change a good thing. Mesmer in general is the one stop shop for any game mode it is best is slot for alot of roles so why mess with that. 

Mirage in particular can easily take on multiple people in WvW and come out on top or retreat. 

To be fair, Mesmer in instanced content is mostly represented by Virtuoso or Chronomancer. But I see your point. 

I wish people stop seeing especs as stand alone classes, but rather additional tools the base class has access to. Mirage still offers monstrous survivability and roaming to the base Mesmer toolkit, and is an invaluable piece to the overall toolkit. It has its strengths, and is fine in most of the game. The only area where it doesn't is instanced PvE content where the design goes directly against a Mirage's strengths, but for that then an Alac Mirage is still a passable choice. 

Edited September 1 by ZephidelGRS.9520

[Gaiawolf.8261]

5 hours ago, ZephidelGRS.9520 said:

I wish people stop seeing especs as stand alone classes, but rather additional tools the base class has access to.

I kinda get what they are saying, and I agree with them. Many especs play much differently from each other that they might as well be different classes. I know several players, including myself that only ever play one espec in some professions, because the others feel so different. It's kind of like in other games, if professions are base classes, and then at a certain level you pick an advanced class.

Personally, I play mirage and virtuoso, but their playstyles are so different, I treat them as different classes and use them for different roles. I'm not even sure I can play chrono. It's even worse for guardians. I only play firebrand, except the very rare occasion I get the itch to try a dh or wb again, because they are so different. Kitten, I play my engineer more than the other guardians specs, and it feels closer to my fb than anything wb can do for me.

Edited September 1 by Gaiawolf.8261

[Mell.4873]

On 9/1/2024 at 2:33 PM, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

It's not the best for zergs but serviceable if you watch your targets. It's pretty good for roaming and not too shabby in open world either. I'm kinda surprised people hate on it so much, except in instanced pve maybe, but it's fine in most of the game.

I see alot of high damage Chronomancer plays in WvW especially during clashes. Mirage and Virtuoso can't keep up normally due to lack of AoE and projectile denials but the new spear skills are helping in that regard.

Mesmer in general is such as odd duck if you take the class as a whole into any game mode you will be fine it's more if you try and pick an elite you like that you will suffer.

Edited September 2 by Mell.4873

[Panda.1967]

On 9/1/2024 at 1:46 AM, ZephidelGRS.9520 said:

Because all of the people who complain are all the people who don't PvP/WvW where Mirage truly shines and is actually a monster to fight against. Literally 9 out of 10 Mesmers you meet in these places are Mirage. In open world it absolutely still is the undisputed king of roaming. I can bet with money that some people don't even play anything other than the open world, and is so godawful even Mirage's survivability can't carry them, yet they keep echoing what the instanced PvE content crowd is spewing and Confuse react anyone who thinks otherwise. Mirage has problems, but weak is not 1 of them.

To be fair, Mesmer in instanced content is mostly represented by Virtuoso or Chronomancer. But I see your point. 

I wish people stop seeing especs as stand alone classes, but rather additional tools the base class has access to. Mirage still offers monstrous survivability and roaming to the base Mesmer toolkit, and is an invaluable piece to the overall toolkit. It has its strengths, and is fine in most of the game. The only area where it doesn't is instanced PvE content where the design goes directly against a Mirage's strengths, but for that then an Alac Mirage is still a passable choice. 

You are so blinded by it performing well in PvP/WvW that you don't actually even recognize the blatant issues with the eSpec. These issues also exist EVEN IN PvP/WvW. Mirage has some of the worst designed traits in the entire game when it comes to eSpecs.

Self-Deception - Generating a clone when using a Deception skill would be good, but the trait has the restriction of "if you have another clone already" which drastically reduces it's usefulness. It would legitimately be better if the restriction was inverted, only working if you have no clone... though the restriction truthfully shouldn't even be there to begin with.

Riddle of Sand - Only applies to your FIRST ambush upon entering combat... sure it refreshes if you use a shatter skill... but this is MIRAGE. Mirage gets more mileage out of NOT shattering their clones than they do out of shattering them... ESPECIALLY Condi Mirage, and Riddle of Sand is a trait designed FOR CONDI MIRAGE. To make matters worse, the trait doesn't synergize with Infinite Horizons, only YOUR ambushes inflict confusion, not your clones... just yours.

Nomad's Endurance - A minor trait that enforces Mirage being a Condi spec... Vigor is great for Mirage with how much they use their dodge skill compared to everyone else. However, once again the trait is tied to shatters, which Condi Mirage wants to avoid doing too often... and yet Mirage wants Vigor at every chance they can get... which puts this trait in direct opposition to how Mirage functions.

Speed of Sand - in PvP this trait may be fine as is... but it's completely worthless in PvE and literally doesn't do what it was intended to do anymore, all because IT WAS NERFED FOR PvP!

Dune Cloak - Shattering 2+ clones gives Mirage Cloak... if you're playing a Power Mirage this might be good since it means you can ambush every time you have 2+ clones... but this yet again works counter to the gameplay loop that Mirage was designed with. This might be good for PvP, but Elusive Mind is probably better for PvP in all honesty... honestly, even Power Mirage would be better served with Infinite Horizon's so their ambushes stack Vulnerability faster.

The abilities of Mirage and many of its traits are in direct opposition to eachother. It's like the traits and abilities were designed completely separate from eachother with zero communication between teams. The design works in PvP because both abilities and traits have a heavy focus on Condition damage and survivability... but they don't actually work together to create a completley cohesive whole. Nearly every mirage build uses the same 3 Major traits for the simple reason that they are the only ones that don't conflict with how the eSpec is designed to function.

Would fixing the issues make Mirage stronger in PvP/WvW? Probably... but if it does then the issues specific to those game modes that arise can be addressed at that time. There will ALWAYS be new issues that come about from fixing other issues... that is simply the nature of how attempting to fix issues with and balance a dynamic skill system works.

Edited September 2 by Panda.1967

[Mell.4873]

3 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

You are so blinded by it performing well in PvP/WvW that you don't actually even recognize the blatant issues with the eSpec. These issues also exist EVEN IN PvP/WvW. Mirage has some of the worst designed traits in the entire game when it comes to eSpecs.

Self-Deception - Generating a clone when using a Deception skill would be good, but the trait has the restriction of "if you have another clone already" which drastically reduces it's usefulness. It would legitimately be better if the restriction was inverted, only working if you have no clone... though the restriction truthfully shouldn't even be there to begin with.

Riddle of Sand - Only applies to your FIRST ambush upon entering combat... sure it refreshes if you use a shatter skill... but this is MIRAGE. Mirage gets more mileage out of NOT shattering their clones than they do out of shattering them... ESPECIALLY Condi Mirage, and Riddle of Sand is a trait designed FOR CONDI MIRAGE. To make matters worse, the trait doesn't synergize with Infinite Horizons, only YOUR ambushes inflict confusion, not your clones... just yours.

Nomad's Endurance - A minor trait that enforces Mirage being a Condi spec... Vigor is great for Mirage with how much they use their dodge skill compared to everyone else. However, once again the trait is tied to shatters, which Condi Mirage wants to avoid doing too often... and yet Mirage wants Vigor at every chance they can get... which puts this trait in direct opposition to how Mirage functions.

Speed of Sand - in PvP this trait may be fine as is... but it's completely worthless in PvE and literally doesn't do what it was intended to do anymore, all because IT WAS NERFED FOR PvP!

Dune Cloak - Shattering 2+ clones gives Mirage Cloak... if you're playing a Power Mirage this might be good since it means you can ambush every time you have 2+ clones... but this yet again works counter to the gameplay loop that Mirage was designed with. This might be good for PvP, but Elusive Mind is probably better for PvP in all honesty... honestly, even Power Mirage would be better served with Infinite Horizon's so their ambushes stack Vulnerability faster.

The abilities of Mirage and many of its traits are in direct opposition to eachother. It's like the traits and abilities were designed completely separate from eachother with zero communication between teams. The design works in PvP because both abilities and traits have a heavy focus on Condition damage and survivability... but they don't actually work together to create a completley cohesive whole. Nearly every mirage build uses the same 3 Major traits for the simple reason that they are the only ones that don't conflict with how the eSpec is designed to function.

Would fixing the issues make Mirage stronger in PvP/WvW? Probably... but if it does then the issues specific to those game modes that arise can be addressed at that time. There will ALWAYS be new issues that come about from fixing other issues... that is simply the nature of how attempting to fix issues with and balance a dynamic skill system works.

People bring up Mirage is not ment for shatting all the time? Who said they are not ment for shattering, Snowcrow benchmarks? 

The only real reason to leave clones alive would be for certain traits like Infinite Horizon. They are not exactly tanking anything and it is pretty easy to find the human amongst them.

When I see decent PvP Mirages they shatter all the time. 

[draxynnic.3719]

6 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

People bring up Mirage is not ment for shatting all the time? Who said they are not ment for shattering, Snowcrow benchmarks? 

The only real reason to leave clones alive would be for certain traits like Infinite Horizon. They are not exactly tanking anything and it is pretty easy to find the human amongst them.

When I see decent PvP Mirages they shatter all the time. 

Snowcrows condimirage rotation shatters.

The perception is that with mirage you want to have all your clones up at all times. That's not strictly wrong, but there are usually points in a rotation where you know that you're about to refresh your clones, so you might as well shatter.

[Panda.1967]

6 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

People bring up Mirage is not ment for shatting all the time? Who said they are not ment for shattering, Snowcrow benchmarks? 

The only real reason to leave clones alive would be for certain traits like Infinite Horizon. They are not exactly tanking anything and it is pretty easy to find the human amongst them.

When I see decent PvP Mirages they shatter all the time. 

As Draxynnic pointed out, its not that mirage is strictly no shatter, but that Mirage benefits from maintaining clones for longer periods. A well played mirage will only shatter when they can immediately replenish their clones right after. Anyone who’s actually played a Mirage for any extended length of time in PvE will tell you that you don’t shatter your clones if you can avoid it.

Also PvP Mirages may shatter far more often because of the nature of PvP.

Edited September 3 by Panda.1967

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

As Draxynnic pointed out, its not that mirage is strictly no shatter, but that Mirage benefits from maintaining clones for longer periods. A well played mirage will only shatter when they can immediately replenish their clones right after. Anyone who’s actually played a Mirage for any extended length of time in PvE will tell you that you don’t shatter your clones if you can avoid it.

Also PvP Mirages may shatter far more often because of the nature of PvP.

 

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Snowcrows condimirage rotation shatters.

The perception is that with mirage you want to have all your clones up at all times. That's not strictly wrong, but there are usually points in a rotation where you know that you're about to refresh your clones, so you might as well shatter.

I agree with PvE, I more ment PvP. Saying that keeping clones alive just to maximise traits is also not healthy gameplay either. 

When I play Mirage I try shatter before I switch targets or phase. With that in mind Self deception is your best friend in PvE due the 3 Jaunt charges. 

Basically stop following Snowcrows and use your shatters. Not everything you fight is a golem. 

Edited September 3 by Mell.4873

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

Reminder that Mirage works extremely well with Desperate Evasion. The trait makes a Mirage generate so many Clones that Shattering a few wouldn't even matter. Even more Clones if you use Self-Deception.

And if we're talking dead traits and trait monopoly, Chrono has it way worse. Unless the Chrono is healing, in which case All's Well That Ends Well is obviously a better choice, all Chrono builds use the exact same 2 Adept and Master traits: Time Catches Up and Improved Alacrity. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone uses Delayed Reactions or Danger Time, and Illusionary Reversion is simply no match versus Improved Alacrity. In other word, there's exactly 1 way to pick Chrono traits lmao.

While Mirage does suffer from Mirage Mantle holding the monopoly on Master trait, there's still a choice between the defensive Renewing Oasis and offensive Self-Deception, and arguably even defensive Desert Distortion versus offensive Mirage Mantle. And Dune Cloak is a welcome change, Infinite Horizon has been holding the monopoly for the Grandmaster slot for so long that having a semi-counterpart to it is a healthy thing. My only gripe is that it only works well with the Sword Ambush at the moment.

[Kulvar.1239]

On 8/28/2024 at 3:15 AM, Millian.9730 said:

• Imaginary Axes: This trait doesn't make much sense, why have a trait that only works with a specific weapon?

There are many more, but most of them don't work as intended.
The only supposed use is to make a weapon the center piece of a build. That doesn't work.
It only means weapons are nerfed and useless unless you pick their trait to get it in line with other weapons.

Fencer's Finesse
Should no longer reduce sword and underwater skills recharge time by 20%.
The ferocity bonus should be given when a phantasm deal damage instead.

Chaotic Potency
Should no longer reduce staff and trident skills recharge time by 20%.
The extra condition damage should occur while having Chaos Aura instead.

Sword
Blurred Frenzy: 8s cooldown.
Illusionary Leap: 10s cooldown.
Illusionary Riposte: 10s cooldown.
Phantasmal Swordsman: 12s cooldown.

Staff
Phase Retreat: 8s cooldown.
Phantasmal Warlock: 12s cooldown.
Chaos Armor: 16s cooldown.
Chaos Storm: 20s cooldown.

Underwater Spear
Feigned Surge: 6s cooldown.
Phantasmal Mariner: 8s cooldown.
Slipstream: 20s cooldown.
Vortex: 32s cooldown.

Trident
Siren's Call: 3s bleeding instead of 1s. (because it's the worst underwater weapon it need at least that too)
Blinding Tide: 6s cooldown.
Imminent Voyage: 10s cooldown.
Phantasmal Whaler: 12s count recharge.
Illusion of Drowning: 20s cooldown.

Similar changes to other traits could be done.

[draxynnic.3719]

14 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

 

I agree with PvE, I more ment PvP. Saying that keeping clones alive just to maximise traits is also not healthy gameplay either. 

When I play Mirage I try shatter before I switch targets or phase. With that in mind Self deception is your best friend in PvE due the 3 Jaunt charges. 

Basically stop following Snowcrows and use your shatters. Not everything you fight is a golem. 

No need for the hostility there - I was just pointing out that even the snowcrows rotation shatters. In open world PvE, it's also good to shatter in situations where you know you're going to lose your clones anyway, such as when a target is about to die (and that's what you're really doing in an "about to refresh your clones" situation anyway, since replacing clones effectively means you're losing your old clones, might as well shatter them). Heck, when running in open world I'm usually running Deceptive Evasion and I'm often blocked from shattering due to the shatters all being on cooldown rather than due to not having enough clones. 

[Mungrul.9358]

I returned after taking a year off, and was immediately disappointed with the change made to one of my favourite Mirage utility skills, Sand through Glass.

It no longer leaves behind a mirage mirror, instead immediately applying Mirage Cloak after the initial evade. Which makes it completely irrelevant.
Before, it served as a double-duty skill. A panic button evade, with a nice tactical mirror left behind that you could pick up when you needed it for some more evasion/ambush.

Bah! Put it back the way it was, I say.

Edited September 4 by Mungrul.9358

[Nemhy.5230]

The only changes Anet will give Mirage are nerfs