Stop Treating WvW like a GvG environment

[Gotejjeken.1267]

39 minutes ago, One more for the road.8950 said:

I linked to API endpoints because someone claimed nobody had any numbers because they don't work in Anet. Which is wrong considering Anet gives both matches and teams info to pull. That is not me "going on", that is me neutrally offering a fact and a link to the wiki for someone.

Which ironically, helped lead to definite proof that WvW is dying off because of WR and anet treating it like a GvG environment.

Your initial post was 'this is a forums thing' and you have yet to say, 'oh my bad, maybe it isn't just a forums thing'.  

You can keep relying, but the copium grows deeper with you. 

Edited September 4 by Gotejjeken.1267

[One more for the road.8950]

3 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Which ironically, helped lead to definite proof that WvW is dying off because of WR and anet treating it like a GvG environment.

Your initial post was 'this is a forums thing' and you have yet to say, 'oh my bad, maybe it isn't just a forums thing'.  

You can keep relying, but the copium grows deeper with you. 

 

Of course I am not saying my bad, the forums are still talking about things in another way and more negatively than what the people I meet and game with do in game. That is not copium. It needs no counter proof. No "evidence" can change that.

You are on a crusade that doesn't exist.  

[Arete.7019]

12 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Which ironically, helped lead to definite proof that WvW is dying off because of WR and anet treating it like a GvG environment.

Your initial post was 'this is a forums thing' and you have yet to say, 'oh my bad, maybe it isn't just a forums thing'.  

You can keep relying, but the copium grows deeper with you. 

Just to be clear, the numbers don't really support that very strongly. I added another month to the sheet to make this more obvious. 2024 is pretty average across 4 years and 2023 is higher than average.

[urd.8306]

On 9/3/2024 at 12:01 AM, thatNEWguy.8192 said:

The game is called guild wars so ughhh hmm

It's called Guild Wars 2.
And the Guild Wars are over for a while now.

The Guild Wars were three major conflicts that took place mostly between the nations of Kryta and Ascalon, the first two Guild Wars lasted for an unknown period of time, but the third lasted for ~57 years and only ended due to the Searing taking place on 1070 AE with the humans needing to divert all possible resources to fighting off the charr. The third guild war was also the first and only time that the nation of Orr was involved. Unlike what we would know as wars between nation states, this was instead a bloody conflict between massive guilds and was a very messy affair without clearly distinct battle lines drawn.

[Silinsar.6298]

6 minutes ago, One more for the road.8950 said:

Of course I am not saying my bad, the forums are still talking about things in another way and more negatively than what the people I meet and game with do in game. That is not copium. It needs no counter proof. No "evidence" can change that.

You are on a crusade that doesn't exist.  

It's no surprise that people ingame are leaning towards a more positive view because those who do not like the current state of things are less likely to be playing (as much) right now. People going to a concert probably like the band playing it.

[One more for the road.8950]

5 minutes ago, Silinsar.6298 said:

It's no surprise that people ingame are leaning towards a more positive view because those who do not like the current state of things are less likely to be playing (as much) right now. People going to a concert probably like the band playing it.

Sure, I have pointed out before that people that are negative to something are more likely to go to forums to complain and people that are fine with something doesn't really go to post "I am fine with this". It's the nature of forums.

But for some reason the poster in question expect me to "revise" or "change" or say "I am sorry, I was wrong" about the difference I am experiencing between forums and in game because.... something?

[Silinsar.6298]

9 minutes ago, One more for the road.8950 said:

But for some reason the poster in question expect me to "revise" or "change" or say "I am sorry, I was wrong" about the difference I am experiencing between forums and in game because.... something?

Just saying that players ingame aren't the "objective" truth or accurate reference either. At least people coming to the forums are still interested & invested in the game enough to take the time to voice their concerns. The ones most disappointed and non-approving aren't the ones you're gonna see anywhere, because they left quietly.

Edited September 4 by Silinsar.6298

[One more for the road.8950]

8 minutes ago, Silinsar.6298 said:

Just saying that players ingame aren't the "objective" truth or accurate reference either. At least people coming to the forums are still interested & invested in the game enough to take the time to voice their concerns. The ones most disappointed and non-approving aren't the ones you're gonna see anywhere, because they left quietly.

Yes.. The same way the posters on the forums aren't the "objective" truth or accurate reference. No matter how invested or interested.

Doesn't change what I experience.

I never tried to use it as evidence or counter for anything, I just wrote about the difference I experience. Your point?

Edited September 4 by One more for the road.8950

[joneirikb.7506]

To add some more anecdotal evidence: My own guild seems to be enjoying the WR, they like having more randomness in enemies to fight against. (Personally I've been playing so little lately that I don't really notice much difference as long as I'm with my guild.)

I haven't looked closely at the stats as it hasn't interested me that much, but it would be interesting if we actually had the stats all the way back from launch, so we could have seen just how much the game-mode declined over the years. (Hint: Queue's on 8x3 servers on reset to barely queues on 4x3 servers on reset in NA)

[Silinsar.6298]

9 minutes ago, One more for the road.8950 said:

Yes.. The same way the posters on the forums aren't the "objective" truth or accurate reference. No matter how invested or interested.

Doesn't change what I experience.

I never tried to use it as evidence or counter for anything, I just wrote about the difference I experience. Your point?

That the ingame experience is biased as well - and the forums are probably closer to a "middle" (or at least somewhere inbetween) ground when it comes to the reception of the world restructuring.
Your previous comments made it seem like you think of the ingame feedback as the more accurate one.

Spoiler

On 9/3/2024 at 1:21 AM, One more for the road.8950 said:

What I see in the forums and the complaining and utter belief that this is the worst thing that happened to WvW and bring servers back yesterday... doesn't at all line up with my experience in game. It's a forum thing. It's like people are playing two different games.

People are complaining about things. But WR being the core of all WvW trouble is not one of them. WR is more of a relief.

 

[Chaba.5410]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Which ironically, helped lead to definite proof that WvW is dying off because of WR and anet treating it like a GvG

Only the "proof" identified wasn't proof of WR impact!!!!!!! You are fooling yourself now because you didn't understand the methodology.

If you want to know how WR made an impact, you have to make a comparison of pre and post implementation matches.

For longer term trends, you need more post WR data and chart the data so you aren't falling into a cherry picking trap.

 

Edited September 4 by Chaba.5410

[Cyninja.2954]

8 minutes ago, Silinsar.6298 said:

That the ingame experience is biased as well - and the forums are probably closer to a "middle" (or at least somewhere inbetween) ground when it comes to the reception of the world restructuring.
Your previous comments made it seem like you think of the ingame feedback as the more accurate one.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Neither are free of bias. The forums are in no way closer to a middle. Forums often devolve into echo chambers on issues, positive and negative.

Having the same 10-20 forum posters circle jerk themselves on an issue in no way makes this issue more important. Why would any poster of differing opinion intervene? Just to get shouted down and told his opinion is incorrect? I applaud the few that even dare mention they are having fun with the new system.

Then you also have the "rage" component. Players which are angered and need to vent, coming to the forums.

Hence why I was referring to the limited activity data we have access to. Activity which the developers are far better to judge, given they have better data on what is going on first hand, which lead to the huge discrepancies between subjective experience of individuals and actual numbers given by the developers during beta weeks.

Edited September 4 by Cyninja.2954

[Silinsar.6298]

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Neither are free of bias. The forums are in no way closer to a middle. Forums often devolve into echo chambers on issues, positive and negative.

That's what I was saying and why I put "middle" in parenthesis and specified "at least somewhere inbetween". The forums represent the people who feel the need to share that they (dis)like something who are still invested in the game. Yes, that can be negative-leaning, but at least they still care.

 

The game is full of people rather playing it.

The people who were turned away don't show up anywhere anymore.

I do think the forums sit inbetween those two.

[One more for the road.8950]

20 minutes ago, Silinsar.6298 said:

That the ingame experience is biased as well - and the forums are probably closer to a "middle" (or at least somewhere inbetween) ground when it comes to the reception of the world restructuring.
Your previous comments made it seem like you think of the ingame feedback as the more accurate one.

  Hide contents

 

 

Of course it's biased. Both are biased. You don't play a game if you don't like the game. And forums being closer to a "middle" is just coherently flawed considering the amount of people in game that isn't on the forums. It's just a fragment of the WvW population. To be fair, without trying to be mean, the WvW forums are used as a source of memes for the most part as far as I know.

I never state what is more accurate. I state that for me it is clearly a difference, and that for me it's a forum thing that people are so negative. And no matter what it "seemed" like, I have literally spent several posts explaining the poster in question that it was a neutral statement and did not imply anything. Without that changing a thing in their communication towards me.

At least you aren't trying to tell me I write about echo chambers, numbers, evidence, calendars (whatever that was about), or the other things, but people need to be able to read posts neutrally and not jump to conclusions. Or at least be able to reasses when someone tells them it's neither what's written nor the meaning behind it. If someone decides that "What you wrote means this exact thing and now you have to defend it even if that's not what you wrote/meant or change your opinion that you never had" our communication as a species is doomed.

Edited September 4 by One more for the road.8950
trying to make "reasses" not turn into "kitten"

[Cyninja.2954]

Just now, Silinsar.6298 said:

That's what I was saying and why I put "middle" in parenthesis and specified "at least somewhere inbetween". The forums represent the people who feel the need to share that they (dis)like something who are still invested in the game. Yes, that can be negative-leaning, but at least they still care.

 

The game is full of people rather playing it.

The people who were turned away don't show up anywhere anymore.

I do think the forums sit inbetween those two.

From an aspect of communication, sure, as you mentioned, a player which leaves is gone and does not leave a message. Though I;'d argue that a lot of forum readers never actually post, especially not in divisive threads.

From a point of neutrality or balanced discussion, I'd disagree. Forums also have disgruntled previous players which simply can't let go. I could name a few, one of which is a live long passionate thief hater and has managed to make any thread he talks about how thiefs and stealth needs to be nerfed, even if it's about cooking.

The issue here is that most "discussion" on a forum is not intended as a discussion. It's often just fishing for like minded opinions, which as mentioned then devolve into confirmation biased agreements.

Look at any class forum. You'd immediately imagine every class is completely inferior and unplayable, unless of course you read about that class on one of the other class forums.

Forums are good in capturing what is currently on the mind of players, and WR no matter how one stands on its implementation certainly is on players minds. That's it though.

[Mike.3196]

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

From an aspect of communication, sure, as you mentioned, a player which leaves is gone and does not leave a message. Though I;'d argue that a lot of forum readers never actually post, especially not in divisive threads.

From a point of neutrality or balanced discussion, I'd disagree. Forums also have disgruntled previous players which simply can't let go. I could name a few, one of which is a live long passionate thief hater and has managed to make any thread he talks about how thiefs and stealth needs to be nerfed, even if it's about cooking.

The issue here is that most "discussion" on a forum is not intended as a discussion. It's often just fishing for like minded opinions, which as mentioned then devolve into confirmation biased agreements.

Look at any class forum. You'd immediately imagine every class is completely inferior and unplayable, unless of course you read about that class on one of the other class forums.

Forums are good in capturing what is currently on the mind of players, and WR no matter how one stands on its implementation certainly is on players minds. That's it though.

You mentioning their as your argument isn't valid cause  SA is overturned soo.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

6 hours ago, Silinsar.6298 said:

Just saying that players ingame aren't the "objective" truth or accurate reference either. At least people coming to the forums are still interested & invested in the game enough to take the time to voice their concerns. The ones most disappointed and non-approving aren't the ones you're gonna see anywhere, because they left quietly.

Just FWIW, they will run you in circles with fence sitting.  

6 hours ago, One more for the road.8950 said:

At least you aren't trying to tell me I write about echo chambers, numbers, evidence, calendars (whatever that was about), or the other things

As a sort of last with you:

On 9/3/2024 at 1:15 PM, One more for the road.8950 said:

I don't know which are holiday months where you live, but here people essentially stop having any proper uni or school and start having exams in May and into the beginning of June. Children's schools with no exams last until early to mid-June. Schools and uni start back up as close as possible or on August 15th, usually. The big holiday months are June, July and one week into August or so.

So August having more activity than June just proves the point for me where I live.

You seem to write things and then immediately forget them, going with a line of reasoning that you put opinions on forums that don't mean anything, they are just your feelings.  

Since forums are inherently debate oriented (thus the name), it makes it very difficult to debate when you for instance go 'oh, negativity is a forums thing' then 'oh, well no, negativity is just my vibe of a forums thing'. 

This extends to every other interaction we've had--while I'm initially game for it, it does get tiring to wait for my notifications to blow up only to read 'you can't control my feelings!' or something of that nature.

Which is why I'll agree to a ceasefire as we're just going down the road of me violating a safe space or something, which is a dubious proposition.

6 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Only the "proof" identified wasn't proof of WR impact!!!!!!! You are fooling yourself now because you didn't understand the methodology.

If you want to know how WR made an impact, you have to make a comparison of pre and post implementation matches.

For longer term trends, you need more post WR data and chart the data so you aren't falling into a cherry picking trap.

How can you even do that when we've had on and off betas for five years? Betas where they ran events each and every time which skews numbers? 

Would we need to look into community discord activity too? Essentially, are people really getting more hyped now that it's a GvG enviro vs. server pride days? 

[One more for the road.8950]

2 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Just FWIW, they will run you in circles with fence sitting.  

As a sort of last with you:

You seem to write things and then immediately forget them, going with a line of reasoning that you put opinions on forums that don't mean anything, they are just your feelings.  

Since forums are inherently debate oriented (thus the name), it makes it very difficult to debate when you for instance go 'oh, negativity is a forums thing' then 'oh, well no, negativity is just my vibe of a forums thing'. 

This extends to every other interaction we've had--while I'm initially game for it, it does get tiring to wait for my notifications to blow up only to read 'you can't control my feelings!' or something of that nature.

Which is why I'll agree to a ceasefire as we're just going down the road of me violating a safe space or something, which is a dubious proposition.

How can you even do that when we've had on and off betas for five years? Betas where they ran events each and every time which skews numbers? 

Would we need to look into community discord activity too? Essentially, are people really getting more hyped now that it's a GvG enviro vs. server pride days? 

Bruh.

Vibe? Control feelings? What?

Where in that post that you just quoted from me do you see an opinion?

On 9/3/2024 at 7:15 PM, One more for the road.8950 said:

I don't know which are holiday months where you live, but here people essentially stop having any proper uni or school and start having exams in May and into the beginning of June. Children's schools with no exams last until early to mid-June. Schools and uni start back up as close as possible or on August 15th, usually. The big holiday months are June, July and one week into August or so.

So August having more activity than June just proves the point for me where I live.

I write what the holiday months are here. Not an opinion. Neutral fact.  Since the poster I quoted seems to have August as a holiday month rather than June. Also not an opinion. Neutral fact.

Then I say that therefore the numbers fit with holidays that we have here, apparently unlike them. Not an opinion. Neutral fact.

What is this chip on your shoulder? Please stop.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

24 minutes ago, One more for the road.8950 said:

Where in that post that you just quoted from me do you see an opinion?

I don't know where 'here' is, but Holiday month's where I live are winter (the US), meaning Thanksgiving-Christmas. 

Why does that matter? To me it doesn't, but it's what we're reduced to with posting 'neutral facts'.    

🙃

[Dinas Dragonbane.2978]

Since the announcement of WR going permanent beta, the forums have had some pretty good statements which end up as pretty good jokes. The one from this thread is the WvW forum being an echo chamber. The Gw2 WvW forum community disagrees  with itself and each other more than any other part of the gw2 fanbase, possibly combined! The threads here go back and forth as often as a well balanced matchup in EBG. The only things the Gw2 WvW community actually all agree on are as follows:Anet tries SEEMS to ignore the forums(at least they make no efforts to acknowledge them), Anet tags are only seen in large groups, and lastly Boonblobs are too strong(okay there are still some that say they aren't so ALMOST this one is unanimous).

There you have it, anything else is NOT an echo chamber here.

[Charall.4710]

On 9/4/2024 at 1:38 AM, Cyninja.2954 said:

The complaint threads of the few weeks especially do not reflect thebin game situation.

Um ackshually *Pushes glasses up the bridge of her nose*

Pretty sure they do fam.

[Cyninja.2954]

2 minutes ago, Charall.4710 said:

Um ackshually *Pushes glasses up the bridge of her nose*

Pretty sure they do fam.

Not if we go by the fact that activity numbers have been growing 3 weeks in a row. 🤷‍♂️

[Charall.4710]

4 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Not if we go by the fact that activity numbers have been growing 3 weeks in a row. 🤷‍♂️

Do you have actual player counts or just arbitrary kill counts still?

[Cyninja.2954]

3 minutes ago, Charall.4710 said:

Do you have actual player counts or just arbitrary kill counts still?

Arbitrary kill counts which given neither you nor I have actual player numbers (I am sure the developers have those), is more than you can provide statistically.

 

Edited September 6 by Cyninja.2954

[Charall.4710]

21 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Arbitrary kill counts which given neither you nor I have actual player numbers (I am sure the developers have those), is more than you can provide statistically.

Given the kill counts change with each meta they are arbitrary cause one month the meta could encourage high spike damage while the next it could be boonballs, it's not a reliable source of content popularity.