Improving spear while maintaining its current identity

[Tempest.8479]

After finally getting around to Janthir Wilds this week and getting to try out the spear in the live game, I've come away with the opposite impression of using a pistol. While I found pistol to be a thematically bland weapon that ended up being effective from a numbers perspective in several cases, I found spear to be thematically interesting while its mechanics and effectiveness felt somewhat lacking. While I won't get into every point of criticism that makes spear feel weaker than it should, I do think there are ways to improve its overall gameplay while retaining the current identity of charging up to empower and unleash devastating attacks from range.

 

Rework Etchings

In order to smooth out and improve the gameplay of etchings, several reworks should be made:

• Unify etchings and their detonations into a single, ground-targeted, flip-over skill that can be charged for greater effect
• Rework the animations/radii of all detonation skills to account for the new unified mechanics
• Replace the self-boon components of the etchings with pulsing conditions

As it stands, the game considers etchings and their respective detonations to be funtionally separate skills, one cast as a pbAoE and the other at 1200 range. In order to smooth out and improve gameplay, etchings should become ground-targeted, 1200 range abilities that always cast their detonation effects within the total radius of the etchings themselves. They would still need to be charged up with 3 skills, but any skills cast into or out of their radii would count as a charge. This would allow eles to charge up their etchings by firing spells into them at 1200 range, but detonations could not longer be cast in different locations. This would shift the burden of positioning from the elementalist to the etchings themselves, as they would be free to move wherever they wanted but would now need to keep their targets within their etchings long enough to detonate them in a fully charged state. At the same time, an ele could cast an etching and quickly double-tap to detonate the lesser version if an enemy proved too mobile.

In order for the detonation effects to work with the new mechanics, their animations and effects would need to be adjusted or reworked. Volcano would need the least adjustment, as its animations would remain the same. The diminishing returns on damage should be removed to account for a larger, more inconsistent radius, and each projectile's radius would need to be increased to retain some of the lost consistency. As for the other 3, their animations should be reworked into ring AoE effects that would start at the center and expand to the edges of the etchings. This would also make them much more reliable to use, as the current line effects can often fail to hit anything too often. All damage numbers for the other three should also be increased to account for the limits to positioning.

Because etchings would now be fully ranged abilities, it would make little sense for them to apply self-boons within their radii without creating negative synergy with the rest of the spear skills. Therefore, their boon components should be replaced with pulsing conditions: burning for fire, chilled for water, vulnerability for air, and bleeding for earth. The self-boons should instead be shifted to a rework of the 3 skills.

 

Introduce a New Effect to 3 Skills: Etched Empowerment 

In order to create new synergies while incorporating the self-boons lost from etchings, a new effect should be added to all spear 3 skills: Etched Empowerment. This new effect would come in 4 forms, one for each attunement, but only 2 could be active at once. Gaining a third would replace the oldest one of the 2 active effects. Each of these effects would provide a pulsing boon for the ele, and an active effect that would synergize with etchings. These active effects could be applied in 2 ways: one more broadly applicable but less powerful, or one that applies only to the the area within an etching but is stronger as a result. Let's take a look at a proposed version of the fire effect as an example:

Version 1:

• Etched Empowerment: Fire (effect): Periodically gain might. Successful attacks while an etching is active deal 7% increased strike damage to burning foes.

Version 2:

• Etched Empowerment: Fire (effect): Periodically gain might. Successful attacks within an active etching deal 15% increased strike damage to burning foes.

An argument could be made for either of these implementations, but I would be comfortable with whichever seems more balanced and healthy for the game. Proposed effects for the other 3 elements would be as follows:

• Etched Empowerment: Water (effect): Periodically gain regeneration. Successful attacks on chilled foes heal for a fixed amount.
• Etched Empowerment: Air (effect): Periodically gain fury. Successful attacks on vulnerable foes apply Fulgor.
• Etched Empowerment: Earth (effect): Periodically gain stability. Successful attacks on bleeding foes apply cripple. Crippled foes are immobilized instead.

These new effects would create opportunities to synergize with the conditions now being applied by the reworked etchings, as well as boosting the power of the spear toolkit as a whole.

As much as I would like to see the Weaver dual skills reworked into proper attacks, an easy way to improve them using Etched Empowerment would be for them to grant the effects of both attunements, but at a reduced duration. Then Superior Elements could be changed to allow the weakness to apply while under 2 Etched Empowerment effects.

When taken as a whole, I feel like these reworks could increase the flexibility, reliably, and damage potential of spear skills, while retaining the current theme of using the skills to charge up and unleash massive elemental effects.

 

Tl;dr: I think that spear can be improved while retaining its current identity by reworking etchings and their respective detonations into ranged flip-over skills that can be charged for greater effect and adding a new effect to all spear 3 skills that could increase synergies and even smooth out Weaver gameplay.

 

Edit: See this post for additional clarification on Etched Empowerment, as well as additional solutions to mitigate the amount of time an ele would need to hold enemies inside the radius of a fully ranged etching.

Edited Sunday at 10:08 PM by Tempest.8479

[Markus.6415]

On 9/5/2024 at 3:48 AM, Tempest.8479 said:

In order to smooth out and improve gameplay, etchings should become ground-targeted, 1200 range abilities that always cast their detonation effects within the total radius of the etchings themselves. They would still need to be charged up with 3 skills, but any skills cast into or out of their radii would count as a charge. This would allow eles to charge up their etchings by firing spells into them at 1200 range, but detonations could not longer be cast in different locations.

Unfortunately I gotta say this sounds horrible and will only work on stationary golems. Putting down the etching at the target -> having to charge it up 3 times -> casting the final skill = around 5-6 seconds where we'd have to pray to god the enemy doesn't move out of it. It'll make it effectively worse.

What I really like though is your suggestions to make the etching finales all into bigger ground targets like the Vulcano (that needs a strong explosion damage at the start). I'd even be happy if they made only one of water, air or earth into an aoe, to make it at least a bit more even.

The suggestions with the changed 3 skills making them into damage addition passive buffs and only 2 active at the time, the 3rd overwriting the first... I don't like it. Those passives are always the burden of the weapons, with Anet feeling the need of balancing it completely with the benchmark players in mind that are able to upkeep the buffs nearly permanently. I believe that's another overcomplication that I definately don't need anymore of in my Ele playkit.

I'd say Anet has to redesign the Weaver spear skills and bring in some damage. But i know how unlikely it is, because that's a bunch of skills to design again and alot to animate also to not make it look half assed last minute additions.

Edited September 10 by Markus.6415

[Jski.6180]

At the very least the start or the first cast of etching needs to be on an 0 cast time. It should be something you can even put down when cced.

(Spears over all issues is cast times it is too slow and having quickness is too important for the spears over all that where added in.)

[Juniper.8197]

These kind of feedback would have been so much more useful during the beta testing period.

[Tempest.8479]

10 hours ago, Markus.6415 said:

Unfortunately I gotta say this sounds horrible and will only work on stationary golems. Putting down the etching at the target -> having to charge it up 3 times -> casting the final skill = around 5-6 seconds where we'd have to pray to god the enemy doesn't move out of it. It'll make it effectively worse.

I can see where this criticism is coming from. I initially envisioned this change to incentivize strategically using cripple, immob, and cc, but I can see how the timing of the skills could become worse. I think there's a few ways to get around that, however. I would propose adjusting the skills in 1 or more of the following ways:

• Increase the radius of the skills. Make them the largest radius weapon skills (something like 450) to account for how long they might be fixed in place.
• Reduce the number of skills needed to charge down to 2. Decrease duration back down to 5s to account for this.
• Dynamically adjust the cooldown depending on charge level (e.g. casting at 1 charge is a 10-15s cooldown, 2 is 15-20s, 3 is 20-25s).
• Add a direct damage component to the etchings themselves, increasing with charge level or how long the etching has been active, to make up for some lost damage if you are unable to cast at full charge.
• Making etchings instant cast like @Jski.6180 said.

One or more of these solutions could be implemented to allow for greater flexibility or to speed up the total time an ele would need to keep an enemy within a radius.

10 hours ago, Markus.6415 said:

The suggestions with the changed 3 skills making them into damage addition passive buffs and only 2 active at the time, the 3rd overwriting the first... I don't like it. Those passives are always the burden of the weapons, with Anet feeling the need of balancing it completely with the benchmark players in mind that are able to upkeep the buffs nearly permanently. I believe that's another overcomplication that I definately don't need anymore of in my Ele playkit.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my original post, but I intended for Etched Empowerment to replace the current effects that 3 skills grant on next skill use. Ideally the durations would be balanced so that only 1 would be active at a time. I only specified only 2 could be active at a time to account for Weaver, as well as preventing someone from spamming through attunements and just stacking all the bonuses while an etching is active. Therefore, these effects would work as a more broadly applicable bonus that synergizes with your etchings, rather than in only the next skill used.

It wasn't my intention for them to become a buff that always needs to be juggled. On the contrary, I would want them to be used strategically in conjunction with the etchings. Instead of being a bonus on just the next skill, however, they would be bonuses that apply to all skills so long as an etching is active.

As an example, assuming current etching durations, I would set the duration of an Etched Empowerment effect at 4-4.5s. Dual skills would grant 2 effects for 2.5s. That way you would only really be able to benefit from 1 at a time, or 2 for a short duration, assuming you wait to charge an etching at full power every time. I can see how it would become a somewhat predictable rotation per attunement, but I don't think it's any different than what exists now.

31 minutes ago, Juniper.8197 said:

These kind of feedback would have been so much more useful during the beta testing period.

I would encourage you to look back at the massive beta feedback thread on the spear. I didn't get a chance to fully test it in order to formulate a post with any kind of feedback on the etchings themselves, but I, along with plenty of others, pointed out the potential for negative synergy with Weaver and how a fully ranged playstyle interacts poorly with the other 2 specs. I stopped following closely after a while, but I'm sure posts like this weren't unique to after the spear came out. In fact, a lot of the changes they did make to damage and duration were frequent points of criticism on that post.

Unfortunately, I don't think that those changes are enough. Again, I'd like to reiterate that I found the spear to be really interesting from a thematic perspective, but it could still use improvements. In a live game, there's always enough time for a weapon, skill, trait, etc. to be reworked or adjusted to become better for the game as a whole. That's why I think feedback is always beneficial, even if it doesn't lead to immediate changes.

Edited September 10 by Tempest.8479

[RaveOnYou.2819]

spear current identity is broken, so as pistol. those suggestions dont work.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

If it "needs" to keep the spirit:
Spear already asks to hold many key (3 skills, including already small radius ground targeting skills) for its gimmick, and repeat for 1 or 2 more elements, and the grand final also asks you to ground target a tiny aoe for the big effect + it fails half the time because of the 3/4sec cast and tight radius. It's too frustrating.
I know you can snap auto-target into the settings, but come on I won't change setting everytime I change weapons or class, only to play this awful Spear.

Somehow the "final" etching should be instant without ground target and/or way larger : on foe with nice tracking, or without target into the etching for volcano /front of you like hammer #4.

But personaly, I don't like how it works. It's not as awful as pistol, but still too restrictive and demanding, with so few synergy with traits and utility skills, particulary e-specs.
I would make Like you have 2 modes : the mode "fast and cleave" with fast-cast, larger aoe, superspeed/dashs on #3 etc ; and the etching mode, the element "roots" you, if you stand into it you have less mobility but stronger damage, shorter radius may be, barriers etc.
As the gimmick on thief's riffle, but it's an etching.

Edited September 11 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[draxynnic.3719]

How to fix spear: Make an elementalist elite specialisation that actually synergises well with it. While some people are figuring out workarounds, a big part of the problem is that spear is basically fighting against the design of every elite specialisation.

[Bladestrom.6425]

On 9/11/2024 at 4:03 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

How to fix spear: Make an elementalist elite specialisation that actually synergises well with it. While some people are figuring out workarounds, a big part of the problem is that spear is basically fighting against the design of every elite specialisation.

This appears to have been the 'designers' thought process:

Q: How can we make spear synergise with Weaver and its core USP, duel skills?

A: 

    - Remove one of the big sources of ranged damage from skill 3(?!) and make superior elements useless...for a new ranged weapon. 

   -  Add a buff to skill 3 to promote not using duel skills

   -   Add yet more speed buffs and crit buffs despite the fact Weaver has ample access already along with the consumption of Woven stride.

 Q : how can we make spear effective on pvp?

A

 - Make the castor have to stand in a circle constantly at range

- make damage useless where there is movement.

- make weaver useless and ignore fact tempest and cata are melee.

What actually appears to have happened is that a designer who was not knowledgeable or skilled enough to understand the spec or capable of conducting Impact analysis made a bit of a dogs dinner of it, just like Hammer, just like pistol. (evidenced by lack of use)

Whoever is in control of Anets purse strings should really be asking what the hell are we doing throwing resource at features that no-one is using, what's going wrong. The frustrating thing now is as per previous weapons the next few balance passes will be wasted trying to fix spear without fixing the root causes, to the neglect of other specialisations and weapons.. just like hammer, just like pistol, just like cata, just like signets..it goes on and on!

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 12 by Bladestrom.6425

[Bleikopf.2491]

On 9/11/2024 at 5:03 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

How to fix spear: Make an elementalist elite specialisation that actually synergises well with it. While some people are figuring out workarounds, a big part of the problem is that spear is basically fighting against the design of every elite specialisation.

If it was only elite specs you would want to run core. 

Spear doesn't want to play nicely with the Fire trait line, despite having a Fire yet again be the damage attunement on the weapon. Only one skill gives burning, which you have to hit everytime to keep Pyromancer's Training up. They should probably give Cope some burning, too. 

No fire fields for Persisting Flames either.

Water auto is healing, if it were Vulnerability you would at least have synergy with Piercing Shards. I have only ever seen this trait actively used (swapped to Water for damage bonus) when Ice Bow was still meta, and since then every new weapon tries to ignore this trait as hard as it can. 

Barely any Fury on Spear, so no idea how Raging Storm couls be sustained Solo. Air Etching has too long cool down to keep Fury up. Both Catalyst and Tempest can give Fury, but both are mainly melee specs. 

Earth tends too strongly to Condi and/or melee. 

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

11 hours ago, Bleikopf.2491 said:

[...]

Yeah. E-spec are an issue, and even with core traitlanes it seems they read all traits (may be for the first time) and deliberately avoid all synergy : 1 skill to apply burning, no vulnerability on water, no regen, no immob, no aura.
And once again without boon duration or shenanigans with relics/sigils/...  it's too complicated to loop fury, but even maintain +10mights

[asket.5674]

Etchings should also be universal applicable, edge in earth, change to air and unload derecho. 

[TheGrimoire.4039]

5 hours ago, asket.5674 said:

Etchings should also be universal applicable, edge in earth, change to air and unload derecho. 

To be honest, I wouldn't like that approach, but I'd love it if it were an F5 mechanic.

 

[Shaman.2034]

On 9/12/2024 at 4:08 PM, Bleikopf.2491 said:

Barely any Fury on Spear, so no idea how Raging Storm couls be sustained Solo. Air Etching has too long cool down to keep Fury up.

If you run 0% boon duration solo (you should not do this, but if you do) then Air Etching + Seethe + Raging Storm = 100% Fury uptime solo.

• Raging Storm gives you 50% uptime passively
• Taking the Air trait line for Raging Storm reduces Air Etching to 20 seconds. It pulses 1s Fury 8 times, for 40% more uptime
• Seethe is 4s on 15s cooldown and now you've well exceeded 100% uptime

You should take 25-50% boon duration while playing most any power build solo, because the increased Might stacks are worth a lot more solo unless your build is one of the very few that passively generates 25 Might at 0 boon duration. You only need 12% boon duration to make Raging Storm + Air Etching give you 100% Fury uptime.

[Bleikopf.2491]

10 minutes ago, Shaman.2034 said:

[...]

I did miss Seethe giving Fury, thank you.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

i feel like less emphasis should be placed on the etching mechanic as it is horribly restrictive, predictable and punishing in its current form. the lesser skills are so inferior to their charged versions that allowing the option seems rather unnecessary and possibly more detrimental than beneficial

id consider making the lesser skills at least 70% as effective as their charged counterparts, making the option more worthwhile and playing with the mechanic less of a necessity. after all, the skills are still limited by a 25s cd, and the ability to get less than half the payout seems wholly unnecessary

part of spears identity does seem to be the fact how it involves quite a bit of precise ground targeting, therefore i think the line etching skills are actually fitting (vs area denial/huge aoes). however, i see no reason why they couldnt just hit the targeted area instantly instead of having to travel. this might actually allow the skills to hit intended targets at long range as the weapon was advertised

as satisfying as it is to land a good volcano, the skill could transfer some of the damage to an immediate/undelayed, big initial strike to significantly reduce disappointment in using the skill. imo fulgor is also strange compared to the rest of the skills and could have more of its damage (if not all?) moved to the first strike

as for dual skills, id argue that the consistency between #3 skills is already broken (ripple is much more than a fast-casting buffing skill), and that some of the dual skills could simply be turned into damaging ones. perhaps some skills could continue to synergize with the etching mechanic, while others could double down on the long range + precise ground targeting identity

[Terrorangel.1526]

What if the areas of the Etching skills would provide buffs to the Elementalist to compensate for the area you have to be standing. Similar to other trait effects the Etching symbols could be added to your bar to show the buff visually when many fields are overlapping. 

Earth could provide Toughness, Fire - Power, Air - Ferocity and Water - Healing Power / Vitality / Concentration; something like that.

For me it's not a problem to just throw down an Etching spell and cast some spells. Auto attacks count towards the count as well. Especially in combination with utility skills like Glyph of Elemental Power, "Feel the Burn!", Armor of Earth, Cleansing Fire, Arcane Shield or Arcane Blast. Throwing an Arcane Brilliance on top of it as blast finisher. 

But because activating an Etching skill and not using it afterwards is a waste, it feels like being forced to just press all your available buttons. Because if you don't the result is so underwhelming. Maybe the skill could "collapse" if it wasn't used again, having an effect in the area of the Etching field. 
Collapsing spells could be:
(Not reactivating this skill again will collapse the spell creating an effect in the area of its etching)

• Fire: The spell burns into the ground creating an area that burns enemies. 
• Water: The spell collapses creating an area of Healing Rain, heals and cleanses conditions (or chills enemies?).
• Air: The spell ripples into the air dazing enemies and blinding them while creating a Fulgor storm above them.
• Earth: The spell animates the earth to protect allies within pulsing barrier and defensive boons. Its final pulse dealing damage, applying bleed and cripple and being a blast finisher like Churning Earth.

Besides that should the Etching spells grant a respective Aura to allies within it regardless of whether the spell was finished or it collapsed- or at least the caster, who could share them via Powerful Aura.

What seems missing for me are more combo finishers. The Etching skills are basically combo fields which can't even combo with their respective flipped skills. The weapon offers 2 blast finishers, 1 leap and 1 projectile finisher. One finisher on each attunement. The weapon does not provide any Aura support which is another big part of Elementalists.

I like the spear very much, although the number of effects on my screen sometimes makes it difficult to track my cursor or see the circles of enemy attacks. That I am kind of "forced" to play around the powerful Etching spells makes the gameplay quite repetitive but not so much that I dislike playing with spear- yet. 

[Shaman.2034]

33 minutes ago, Terrorangel.1526 said:

But because activating an Etching skill and not using it afterwards is a waste, it feels like being forced to just press all your available buttons. Because if you don't the result is so underwhelming. Maybe the skill could "collapse" if it wasn't used again, having an effect in the area of the Etching field. 
Collapsing spells could be:
(Not reactivating this skill again will collapse the spell creating an effect in the area of its etching)

• Fire: The spell burns into the ground creating an area that burns enemies. 
• Water: The spell collapses creating an area of Healing Rain, heals and cleanses conditions (or chills enemies?).
• Air: The spell ripples into the air dazing enemies and blinding them while creating a Fulgor storm above them.
• Earth: The spell animates the earth to protect allies within pulsing barrier and defensive boons. Its final pulse dealing damage, applying bleed and cripple and being a blast finisher like Churning Earth.

I think it's a good idea for the Etchings to do something if you don't reactivate them, but they shouldn't do anything enemy-focused inside their radius. The spear was advertised as a ranged weapon and Etchings are point-blank AoE, short range fields. Enemies are not supposed to be in there if you're using the weapon as a ranged weapon.

A simpler idea would be to just have half the cooldown refunded if you never cast the big spell. I want to avoid creating any situation in which it's objectively better to let the Etching expire, so it shouldn't give any extra boons or anything if it expires. It should just let you try again sooner.

37 minutes ago, Terrorangel.1526 said:

Besides that should the Etching spells grant a respective Aura to allies within it regardless of whether the spell was finished or it collapsed- or at least the caster, who could share them via Powerful Aura.

What seems missing for me are more combo finishers. The Etching skills are basically combo fields which can't even combo with their respective flipped skills. The weapon offers 2 blast finishers, 1 leap and 1 projectile finisher. One finisher on each attunement. The weapon does not provide any Aura support which is another big part of Elementalists.

Spear is not supposed to be a support weapon. It's supposed to be a completely selfish weapon. It shouldn't get Aura support because it shouldn't get any kind of support at all. Instead, it just needs more damage and more tools to help it achieve higher damage as a trade-off for lacking any group support.

And I know you're about to bring up Catalyst needing auras to do selfish DPS. But Catalyst already offers ways to get Auras without the weapon itself giving you Auras. Spear is very good at leveraging that part of Catalyst in combination with the ranged Spheres, which are combo fields you can place anywhere for your convenience to combo with the weapon skills from each attunement.

[Tempest.8479]

1 hour ago, Shaman.2034 said:

I think it's a good idea for the Etchings to do something if you don't reactivate them, but they shouldn't do anything enemy-focused inside their radius. The spear was advertised as a ranged weapon and Etchings are point-blank AoE, short range fields. Enemies are not supposed to be in there if you're using the weapon as a ranged weapon.

A simpler idea would be to just have half the cooldown refunded if you never cast the big spell. I want to avoid creating any situation in which it's objectively better to let the Etching expire, so it shouldn't give any extra boons or anything if it expires. It should just let you try again sooner.

I pretty much agree with this, which is why the original post on this thread was a suggestion to rework etchings to be fully ranged skills. This would free up design space to add enemy-focused components without creating a situation where it would be better to let them expire. 

1 hour ago, Shaman.2034 said:

Spear is not supposed to be a support weapon. It's supposed to be a completely selfish weapon. It shouldn't get Aura support because it shouldn't get any kind of support at all. Instead, it just needs more damage and more tools to help it achieve higher damage as a trade-off for lacking any group support.

Pretty much this.

1 hour ago, Shaman.2034 said:

And I know you're about to bring up Catalyst needing auras to do selfish DPS. But Catalyst already offers ways to get Auras without the weapon itself giving you Auras. Spear is very good at leveraging that part of Catalyst in combination with the ranged Spheres, which are combo fields you can place anywhere for your convenience to combo with the weapon skills from each attunement.

While this is somewhat tangential to your point, I do think the lack of ranged combo fields on spear is a problem. I think reworking etchings to function at range would alleviate the lack of combo fields, so that other specs could benefit from the same advantages that Catalyst offers, while still maintaining the spear's identity as a ranged DPS weapon. It would also eliminate the need for Volcano, a skill that really has no business being a combo field on its own, to be an unlisted combo field because the etchings themselves could serve that function.

[Terrorangel.1526]

I understand that spear is not supposed to be a support weapon considering its range and damage potential. My suggestions for auras on the weapon aim to support the profession itself since ele has many traits that work around auras and not a specific specialization.

I didn't mean to make spear a support weapon for group support but rather increase the overall survivability using the weapon in open world PvE. I currently don't see a real place for it in other game modes besides open world because there are better options. 

To be able to choose to either use a "charged" Etching skill for damage or not use it for survival seems like a good trade to me. While the effects on the Etching skills seem strong, it's still a trade off with damage and you would have to wait for 7 seconds for them to take effect. That wouldn't be used in easy content areas or meta events with a lot of people where fights end quickly but would strengthen the sustain for solo content when doing events alone or playing the story. In competitive game modes it would be fairly predictable as well and if the ability had a damaging effect a change of color to a red before the effect occurs would make it easier to play around it as an opponent.

If we compare the ability and its effects to something similar maybe it would be symbols from guardian. They deal damage give boons and can heal if you want to (trait). 

There are weapons that fulfill a pure damaging role for other professions which are offering little to none defense. But those professions can use a weapon swap to make up for that. Without that option I think giving the weapon set more defensive options is fair.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

5 hours ago, Tempest.8479 said:

I pretty much agree with this, which is why the original post on this thread was a suggestion to rework etchings to be fully ranged skills. This would free up design space to add enemy-focused components without creating a situation where it would be better to let them expire.

correct me if im wrong, but wouldnt the same issue occur if enemies simply move out of the etchings? unless etchings are invisible to enemies, an etching with nothing in it would be next to useless, while the current system still allows you to fire off something to some effect

5 hours ago, Tempest.8479 said:

While this is somewhat tangential to your point, I do think the lack of ranged combo fields on spear is a problem. I think reworking etchings to function at range would alleviate the lack of combo fields, so that other specs could benefit from the same advantages that Catalyst offers, while still maintaining the spear's identity as a ranged DPS weapon. It would also eliminate the need for Volcano, a skill that really has no business being a combo field on its own, to be an unlisted combo field because the etchings themselves could serve that function.

i dont see any real use for ranged combo fields outside of catalyst, maybe aside from coincedentally blasting might and heals on allies that happen to be in the area. post rework spear users may likely end up using etchings as pbaoes anyways to use these combos for themselves, which cancels both the orginal and intended ranged aspect

i think what shaman was trying to say is that catalyst already has the tools to make ranged combos happen, hence changing spear to do so would change very little

[Tempest.8479]

4 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

correct me if im wrong, but wouldnt the same issue occur if enemies simply move out of the etchings? unless etchings are invisible to enemies, an etching with nothing in it would be next to useless, while the current system still allows you to fire off something to some effect

What I was trying to say was that I after with that philosophy. I don't think that as they currently exist, etchings should have any enemy-focused components that would incentivize a ranged weapon to use a pbAoE offensively. That's why I suggested reworking etchings in the first place, so that they could be freed up to be used more offensively from range, rather than just as a limited source of self-boons. My suggestions included moving the boon generation onto the 3 skills, and instead replacing the boons with pulsing conditions.

Under my framework for a rework, etchings wouldn't just be empty fields. Rather, they would be ranged combo fields that could be charged up to fire off the flip-over skills, all while pulsing damaging or debilitating effects on enemies. As for enemies moving out of the etchings, see this post for additional suggestions on how to mitigate that problem.

4 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

i dont see any real use for ranged combo fields outside of catalyst, maybe aside from coincedentally blasting might and heals on allies that happen to be in the area. post rework spear users may likely end up using etchings as pbaoes anyways to use these combos for themselves, which cancels both the orginal and intended ranged aspect

i think what shaman was trying to say is that catalyst already has the tools to make ranged combos happen, hence changing spear to do so would change very little

Ranged combo fields provide underrated utility and offensive support, while also synergizing with several traits and relics that require fields or finishers. The easiest example is Persisting Flames, which can only be triggered by hitting a foe with Volcano on a spear. If offensive components like conditions and direct damage were placed on the etchings themselves, then you could ramp up the stacking damage buff before you cast Volcano. This increases its overall damage, as well as that of all other abilities, much quicker and more reliably, and can be maintained without wasting several hits from the least available skill to stack up the buff. There's other traits and relics that synergize with fields and finishers as well, so adding ranged combo fields increases the flexibility in buildcraft for spears as a whole.

This currently works well with Catalyst, as it offers ranged damage on fields (albeit at 600 range), but the weapon doesn't provide those benefits on its own. Taking a different spec significantly lowers the utility and trait synergy one can take advantage of, which is why I think it should be built into the weapon itself. One could argue that not every spec needs to be able to take advantage of a spear equally, but I would argue that Catalyst, a spec that isn't designed with damage or long range as a primary focus, shouldn't be the spec that can leverage a ranged, high damage weapon the best.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

i just feel like the rework doesnt really target the areas you supposedly wish to see improved

if hitting things with etching skills is hard because theyre given too much time to react at long range, change the line skills into ground targeted lazers. if its because the enemy always walks beside/behind you, extend the hitbox to include a pbaoe that hits around the ele. i think volcano doing an explosion at the start is something most people can agree on

i already think this should be baseline, but if charging is too difficult (because you get forced out of the etching or otherwise) then make the lesser skills more worthwhile. lesser skills being 70% as effective as charged skills will still make charged skills 40% better (vs current 100-300% difference) and worth pursuing if possible. letting the skill expire will then become more a fault of greed (or somehow getting chain cc'd for 7s)

im not sure why youd talk about utility and offensive support when it doesnt appear to be any part of spears given identity. instead, id rather talk about improving spears ability to actually hit things with its big skills. add a immob to first target hit with earth #2. change twister into a hitscan attack that always centers on the current target. slip in an extra hit on ice beam to increase chill duration

weaver needs ideas for actual dual skills? lets go further: air/earth pulls enemies into a line to be blasted with derecho/haboob. fire/earth locks enemies in place to be followed up with fire #4 or earth #4. fire/air can simply be a big damage skill that leaves a fire field(s) to interact with persisting flames

if you really want ranged combo fields, then we could just take your suggestion to make etchings ground targetable and that you can throw skills into to charge. on the other hand, changing all flipovers and #3 skills to facilitate this seems rather arbitrary and unecessary (unless i missed the memo that this was not a totally serious suggestion?)

[Papaj.9035]

I only glanced over the posts, and I only saw one thing about the complete worthlessness of the Spear in WvW other than it being slightly better damage dealing Staff that has maybe 25% of the support capability. The whole Etching thing forces you to be a sitting duck in any type of skirmish or solo play and flip skills are all massively telegraphed and have a huge delay on animation versus actually doing damage. I felt like hitting people with staff skills or even the 130 range Weaver sword skills was easier and more consistent. As OP said, the etchings really need to not only benefit the caster if they plant in them (as required by the charges) but also be enough of a deterrent to keep people out of them - or at a minimum at least weigh the option of backing off versus stating in to try and burst down the Ele.

Maybe give the etchings a larger effect range? I feel like 1200 range is fair, or 600 if it pulses conditions...after all, the other classes get access to two weapons (other than Engi - and they have plenty of other things they can use). If they choose to go double melee sets, sounds like a personal problem in WvW. It sounds broken but is it really broken when it has no deterrent for an enemy to stand right in the middle of it? Literally every other Revenant/Guardian/*insert any group play class in WvW* that does fields and area denial just as large have some boon to the caster for standing in them and a deterrent to enemies to just leisurely walking through them to face smack the caster of said field. Also, it's not like the pulsing boons from the etchings affect other players, it's literally only the Ele getting the boon for being a turret.

And as many others have already said, the speed of the spear is lacking...a common theme amongst all Ele weapons compared to most of the counterparts of other classes. Quickness is pretty much mandatory to even keep up with the auto attack chains of non-Q buffed classes. Which is why Scepter is probably the best damage throughput in the game for us (and thats really only accounting for PvE as it's WvW/PvP damage coefficients are still under 0.2/0.3). It's effective attack speed is about 0.375 between the strike damage and the double burning applied - mind you this is also a relatively recent change looking back through the skill note updates on Wiki. The best part about Scepter before I left for 10 years right after HoT dropped was the burst damage from D. Tooth and Phoenix...both of which have had damage output nerfed substantially in WvW/PvP modes since then.

[Tempest.8479]

7 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

if hitting things with etching skills is hard because theyre given too much time to react at long range, change the line skills into ground targeted lazers. if its because the enemy always walks beside/behind you, extend the hitbox to include a pbaoe that hits around the ele. i think volcano doing an explosion at the start is something most people can agree on

i already think this should be baseline, but if charging is too difficult (because you get forced out of the etching or otherwise) then make the lesser skills more worthwhile. lesser skills being 70% as effective as charged skills will still make charged skills 40% better (vs current 100-300% difference) and worth pursuing if possible. letting the skill expire will then become more a fault of greed (or somehow getting chain cc'd for 7s)

I agree that the etching skills should be made more reliable, which is why I suggested in my original post that the three line AoE skills should be reworked into expanding ring AoE skills that expand to cover the entire radius of a ranged etching. The biggest problem with etchings as they exist right now is that the mobility restrictions they create aren't worth the payoff. That's why I would be in favor of shifting the burden of positioning from the ele to the skills themselves. This would allow an ele to move away from AoE effects when needed and quickly reposition to avoid incoming attacks, while still maintaining the spear's thematic identity of creating large spell circles that can be charged up for massive damage.

As it stands right now, etchings create a negative synergy with the weapon's intended playstyle. They serve as large combo fields that don't work with anything other than a projectile finisher cast from inside their radii at range. The boons they provide aren't worth the restrictions they create to get the most out of the damaging skills, making it unnecessarily difficult to deal with multiple enemies, or particularly mobile ones. They also incentivize an ele to stay in one place for several seconds at a time, without doing anything to punish enemies for entering the space. Adding damaging components to them, however, would create a scenario where an ele would be incentivized to stay in melee range to get the most damage out of the weapon, so that should be out of the question.

Making them ranged allows for them to contribute to the spear's overall DPS without ruining the concept of a long range, high damage weapon. The tradeoff for this damage would now come in the form of needing to keep enemies within a radius long enough to unleash it, rather than keeping yourself within said radius. That way, an ele could still take advantage of the biggest defensive tool the spear offers, staying at range, without worrying about a damage loss. Instead the weapon would better reward the proper positioning of AoE skills, use of cc and mobility-impairing conditions, and anticipation of enemy movement and attack patterns.

It would also allow the 3 skills, as well as Weaver dual skills, to absorb the self-boons in order to become more potent, unique skills that better synergize with etchings through Etched Empowerment.

8 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

im not sure why youd talk about utility and offensive support when it doesnt appear to be any part of spears given identity. instead, id rather talk about improving spears ability to actually hit things with its big skills. add a immob to first target hit with earth #2. change twister into a hitscan attack that always centers on the current target. slip in an extra hit on ice beam to increase chill duration

The kind of indirect utility and offensive support ranged combo fields provide would be the exact kind of bonus/ribbon feature that would help a spear function as a weapon. The combo field aspect is really secondary to the idea that a spear would be getting ranged AoE skills that pulse conditions and/or direct damage.

I've made several suggestions on how to improve the reliability of etchings (reworking the flip-over skills, dynamically adjusting the cooldown based on charge level, increasing their radius, etc.) in my original post, as well as a second post that I now direct to on this thread. I also think that etchings pulsing conditions like chilled, and Etched Empowerment granting attacks the ability to apply cripple/immobilized would also help make spear much more reliable.

7 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

weaver needs ideas for actual dual skills? lets go further: air/earth pulls enemies into a line to be blasted with derecho/haboob. fire/earth locks enemies in place to be followed up with fire #4 or earth #4. fire/air can simply be a big damage skill that leaves a fire field(s) to interact with persisting flames

I would love for Weaver to get proper dual skills, but I suggested using multiple forms of a buff in order to create a solution that doesn't require reworking all the skills' animations outright.

7 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

if you really want ranged combo fields, then we could just take your suggestion to make etchings ground targetable and that you can throw skills into to charge. on the other hand, changing all flipovers and #3 skills to facilitate this seems rather arbitrary and unecessary (unless i missed the memo that this was not a totally serious suggestion?)

A spear having access to ranged combo fields is only a small part of why I think they should be reworked, which is why I didn't even mention this as a potential positive in my original suggestions, and didn't even point it out until someone else mentioned combo fields in a separate, somewhat tangential point. Etchings, and 3 skills by extension, shouldn't be reworked to arbitrarily provide ranged combo fields. I think they should should be reworked, however, to create better synergy with the weapon's mechanical identity, while still retaining its thematic identity.