PvE transfusion nerfs bad.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

19 hours ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

It does when they have a post history of 13k posts and not a single topic presented themselves, that implies they have 0 suggestions for improvement to the game. After 13k posts!

You've gone through all 13k?

[Sjentra.3409]

This nerf reminds of the Signets of suffering nerf that basically took it from niche to garbage tier.

If they think being able to save downed state people is too overpowered, maybe they should remove one shots from the game instead.

I liked it better when clearing trash was actually difficult and when your tank pulled one too many groups and everyone had to breakout the cc for the dangerous mobs while the tank, healer, and dps fought over argo and killing order mattered. Now we just have some Dance Dance Revolution knockoff to try and handle the holy trinity knockoff they tried to shoehorn into the game.

[Hesione.9412]

11 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Read again...
Their group without hscourge cleared considerably slower despite having the tryhard players. It was never about speedclear. It was about clearing without knowing how mechanics work.

Either mechanics skip downstate completely or a hscourge negates them.

Read again - I am not talking about skilled, experienced players. I am talking about learners, people with disabilities, and people with high ping. For the last two groups, you can still get walloped by mechanics even knowing they exist and when they will occur. It's pretty hard to avoid something that hasn't rendered on your screen.

You are either spectacularly missing the point, or trolling.

Edited Monday at 11:07 PM by Hesione.9412

[Sjentra.3409]

51 minutes ago, Hesione.9412 said:

Read again - I am not talking about skilled, experienced players. I am talking about learners, people with disabilities, and people with high ping. For the last two groups, you can still get walloped by mechanics even knowing they exist and when they will occur. It's pretty hard to avoid something that hasn't rendered on your screen.

You are either spectacularly missing the point, or trolling.

I'd say he's probably like 1 of the 17 people that care about "world" firsts; which with DNets lack of quality control is basically more about who gets the least amount of crippling bugs in their runs.

Removing any sort of clutch will just dwindle the already micro population that does instanced content because unless you're in a guild thats doing training, you'll get kicked from groups after the first couple of wipes. And there's a huge difference between watching someone else vs actually doing it.

[Captain Bofa.5981]

On 9/14/2024 at 6:26 PM, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

yah right like nerfing pve scourge is a learning moment for us all lol.  Nobody wants this.

I mean. I want this. I'm sorry but lets go back to the example of boneskinner. The number of pugs you see in daily ibs5 that literally can't do boneskinner and wipe to the first puddle, the third puddle, the 5th puddle, so on and so forth. Literally Every other puddle. Ultimately - HS is dragging people through content they aren't experienced in, or in some cases just don't care enough to learn. HS actively supports what I could best describe as "learned helplessness" Ultimately, this is going to lead to more people getting upset, which will lead to one of two outcomes in most cases.  People refuse to learn, get mad, stop doing strikes. Honestly a sad thing, but, it is honestly better than the alternative of those nightmare pugs that literally can not clear content, and people wonder why and start to get toxic. Then the other, more favorable outcome: people learn, actively get better, and, in some cases even start to question wow what else can I improve?

Another good example. A *LOT* of heal scourges are terrible at healing, for example failure to heal the damage over time mechanic on boneskinner, and rely on the rez instead of just healing through it like they should be. (IT *IS* capable of doing such.) So, for the bad healscourges that can't do it having pull to rely on is actively teaching them to not heal enough. rather than actually helping them learn. It isn't punishing the healscourge in this case but the players being healed by the healscourge, and it rewards the healscourge by letting them keep the team alive even though this is a case of "healer failed the healcheck" to skip a mechanic.

Ultimately - Healscourge in its current state actively rewards bad gameplay, both for the healer themselves and the dps players in the squad. Oh I downed to a mechanic? Cool HS can save. OR Oh, I didn't heal enough for them to tank that? Oh well I can rez them! Both of these are terrible examples of how to play the game, yet commonplace currently, largely because of healscourge. While yes some other classes have rez options, most don't have pulls which pull players out of bad. Pulling players out of a bad situation teaches them nothing other than that it wasn't actually that bad.

HOWEVER. I do believe that some sort of compensation, ex: a buff to the actual rez(not pull, rez) of transfusion should be given. OR stability/aegis source as HS is currently severely lacking in both of those.

Main sources for this take: weekly full clear raids from pugs, daily if not more than daily ibs5 clears in pugs and helping out friends' guild groups for both raids & strikes, its a repeated issue.

Edited Tuesday at 03:47 AM by Captain Bofa.5981

[Captain Bofa.5981]

On 9/15/2024 at 6:46 PM, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

Well enjoy playing your inferior nerfed class, certainly hope you don't encounter exclusionary elitist toxicity for playing a non meta class lol. Good luck with that 💩 🤡 

I do gotta ask, where are you finding these "exclusionary elitist toxicity for playing a non meta class lol" players? The only place I have *EVER* seen that cares what class you play to that level is speedclears. And if you are doing those you know what you are getting into. Or some specific pugs asking for a specific thing, of course you would get kicked for not being that specific thing. But, otherwise, I have never seen that be an issue? Genuinely curious where I can find some of that.

[ZephyrusSpring.5728]

I haven't read all the comments so forgive me for jumping in out of turn.  I've always thought Transfusion was too strong for a trait and would fit better in the balance of the game as Necro's elite corruption, with Plaguelands being reclassified as a well.  The healing can stay as a trait but the teleporting aspect really should have been on a skill from the start.  It is an incredibly strong tool to have at the ready and yet it is something Necromancers should excel at more than other classes, and so putting an enhanced teleport for downed players on an elite skill is the obvious place for it.

[Celeste.9135]

3 hours ago, Captain Bofa.5981 said:

I do gotta ask, where are you finding these "exclusionary elitist toxicity for playing a non meta class lol" players? The only place I have *EVER* seen that cares what class you play to that level is speedclears. And if you are doing those you know what you are getting into. Or some specific pugs asking for a specific thing, of course you would get kicked for not being that specific thing. But, otherwise, I have never seen that be an issue? Genuinely curious where I can find some of that.

You are quite lucky if you have never encountered this before. I and friends in my guild have been kicked from squads just doing simple things like ibs 5 or t4 fractals, no kp requirements, no specific class asked for other than the specific roles. Personally I have joined as heal Herald, got mocked in chat for trying to play something the commander considered a bad build and then kicked for not being HFB or heal Chrono. I've seen the same thing happen to my guildie in another strike group and multiple times in fractals for the same class and left another strike group myself while playing Druid after watching another commander kick a heal Herald.

Unsure why so many people seem to dislike it tbh but that's my experience in groups looking for heal boon or heal quick.  I've also been kicked for trying to play alac Mirage before which is maybe more "understandable". Group requirements are either met, or non existent, the content is not CMs or even particularly difficult and the elite spec itself has been called out as the reason. I only ever raid with my static so I cannot speak for that pugging experience but I am sure if it happens in the ez ibs+ds strike squads from time to time, it will also happen there.

It is perfectly feasible that heal Scourge with no transfusion, that tends to rely on its quickdps to cover key boons like stability and swiftness, or waste a relic spot on swiftness while offering much less value than things like Chrono, Druid, Mech and even the Herald I keep seeing getting kicked will be treated this way in both casual and hardcore endgame content. As someone who plays every meta healer and some off meta except for Warrior. I'd rather not see this happen.

Personally I do see myself struggling to justify ever playing my Scourge again without transfusion when I could just have a much easier time being more effective on Chrono, or be better at reviving people than a Necromancer as my Druid, or put less effort in playing Mech, etc. People have called it out both here and in other threads before but every other healer provides much better healing, better access to things like stab and aegis, better CC, better general utility like projectile denial/reflect etc. Even where Scourge excels outside of ressing, barrier spam is done just as well by Mech and condi cleanse spam is done just as well by Chrono. For better or for worse revive capacity is their niche selling point and the removal of it leaves a lacklustre shell that is outcompeted by healers who are even today with transfusion not gutted yet, much more powerful than it. 

[Nephalem.8921]

12 hours ago, Hesione.9412 said:

Read again - I am not talking about skilled, experienced players. I am talking about learners, people with disabilities, and people with high ping. For the last two groups, you can still get walloped by mechanics even knowing they exist and when they will occur. It's pretty hard to avoid something that hasn't rendered on your screen.

You are either spectacularly missing the point, or trolling.

I know people who solo'd dungeons with a 400+ ping when the game came out. you need a 1k+ ping to be unable to dodge attacks in pve in this game. No strike boss has an attack with less than 1s reaction time.

Learners have to learn mechanics like IN EVERY OTHER MMO. There are plenty of disabled people who can raid without constant revives.

If you balance the entire game for the lowest floor then normal players are just bored and oneshot bosses on release since they can also use mass revive on a 10s cd. Hscourge isn't limited to disabled players. Everyone can exploit it. 

Raid training groups had hscourge banned from their trainings btw because it just carries players through encounters without teaching mechanics. So much to your "learners need it" argument. No, they are the group which should never play with one because they wont learn mechanics at all. 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

i am an experienced long-term raider, and i've been a fractal goddess for years at this point. my opinion is the complete opposite of other experienced players; i recognise that healscourge does carry the game sometimes, however, i don't want to wipe on boneskinner for an hour just so players can learn.

 

i want to clear the content and move on, because i have a life to live. its the same with raid training runs, and so on.

 

i find this really strange because most of the players speaking out in favor of the transfusion change, claim to be experienced, hardcore, etc. yet..don't seem to understand that what an experienced player values the most is their time and being rewarded for that time. in theory it will raise the skill floor (eventually), however for the short-term it will also become a huge waste of time and events that i run daily or weekly will turn into horrible slogs when inexperienced pugs are involved.

 

i think this is a bad change, simply put. the game already has a very low carry potential, and has a very high personal responsibility compared to other mmos, due to its low party size. if you remove all carry potential, your party falls to the whims of every random to join it.

 

honestly, if you feel like you are being carried here then you should try to play a game that has 40~ player raids and see the difference! also, in most of them you can be repeatedly resurrected from full death in the middle of a battle (sometimes even the entire party!) which is far worse than our downstate will ever be; we're really not as spoiled as so many seem to imagine us as being, there's just a bias there due to lack of alternative experiences i think.

Edited Tuesday at 02:46 PM by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Astralporing.1957]

7 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

i find this really strange because most of the players speaking out in favor of the transfusion change, claim to be experienced, hardcore, etc. yet..don't seem to understand that what an experienced player values the most is their time and being rewarded for that time

I'm quite sure most of those people either run statics, or join primarily high req groups, so they think they won't directly be affected by the issue. In which they're probably right. I also think that they (alongside Anet) severely underestimate the indirect negative consequences of the change, but i might be wrong about that.

[Astralporing.1957]

On 9/16/2024 at 2:48 AM, Nephalem.8921 said:

EVERY SINGLE BOSS had a hscourge on release day in most groups to fix mistakes and enable clears without understanding mechanics.

That's literally untrue. I mean, scourge didn't even exist for first 4 wings, and hscg didn't become popular until well after wing 5 launch. I understand the point you are trying to make, but there's no reason for such extreme exagerration.

[Nephalem.8921]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That's literally untrue. I mean, scourge didn't even exist for first 4 wings, and hscg didn't become popular until well after wing 5 launch. I understand the point you are trying to make, but there's no reason for such extreme exagerration.

Obviously only applies to bosses after pof release... You cant play a spec before it exists. Downstate teleport on reaper shroud 4 is far worse. the build itself doesn't even heal. W5 released just 6 weeks after pof release. There was 60k dps fb, 47k weaver and a couple other broken builds. Took a couple months until people figured it out. I had a hscourge in w6 prog and onwards though.
W5 was special since a lot of the wipe causing mechanics skipped downstate. one of the reasons why its still hard to pug sometimes.

[Pinkeh.4207]

Transfusion is useful in pug convergences when a lot of downs (failed cc/merchanic) and you need to get them up fast with heal wells + relic of mercy.

Edited yesterday at 08:56 AM by Pinkeh.4207