About the evolution of celestial equipment in WvW.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

16 hours ago, Reyhan.1208 said:

1. This will kill celestial zergs and bring us back to a meta in which every zerg is the same, from what I saw, power-based zergs and celestial zergs are on par and brought variety to the WvW experience.

Here's the thing...and this is high level knowledge : Celestial was never really a thing with zergs. its just noob coms that think this kitten was bussin' because they saw numbers on their screen.

This is knowledge passed down from true gamers alright : Expertise is not a useful stat in zerg, because conditions are cleansed almost immediately in this setting. In PVE, you max expertise because the enemy does not cleanse the condis. In zerg play it is the opposite : You want to stack as much condition damage as possible so that you are front ending damage before it gets cleansed, which will be within 1 - 3 seconds.

That is IF you are playing conditions...which most people don't because conditions are by and large hard countered by healers, and especially scrapper which converts those conditions into boons with POP. Antitoxin came back into the picture so condi's are even harder countered. the meta atm due to poor information entropy is a joke : People don't die because people suck at the game and do no damage. People die when they stand in bombs and are 50 miles from the tag, afk autoing the lord in smc 😆 "Is this cele meta?" when half the zerg gets wiped in lord room off tag is peak skibidi brainrot.

Only thing that changed about celestials is public perception, because people lack game knowledge. People see a nerf to stuff people didn't even play...and people think a problem got solved when in fact nothing of true significance got changed.

Total stats is what changed right...but total stats doesn't mean much because stat contribution to builds is nontrivial. Again noob players don't understand game mechanics or math to even understand this.

Anyway im impartial to this change, which ive stated before a number of times. i dont care if this stat got nerfed cause it wasn't even in my rearview or on the dash. This kitten was in the trunk, under the stained rug. Only thing that irks me is the changed happened based off of complainers and false math. Means Anet is just throwing darts at the wall they probably dont have a proper model for game design or anything...If you understand this game, changes like this should make you worried.

Edited September 15 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Shadow.2097]

15 hours ago, Reyhan.1208 said:

This will kill celestial zergs

Good - Celestial zergs are unhealthy for the game. 

15 hours ago, Reyhan.1208 said:

Elementalists are designed for celestial stats

Absolutely not true and Celestial will continue to be viable on Ele following the nerf, there are many options for supplementing boon duration outside of equipment stats. 

15 hours ago, Reyhan.1208 said:

power-based builds are outperforming celestial.

Give me some of whatever you've been smoking.

15 hours ago, Reyhan.1208 said:

balanced approach is part of Guild Wars 2's DNA

Celestial wasn't balanced.

 

15 hours ago, Reyhan.1208 said:

what kind of compensation will I get

lol

[Dean Calaway.9718]

13 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Here's the thing...and this is high level knowledge

How about you don't using the quote function and write something in there in my name WHICH I NEVER WROTE?!

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 minute ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

How about you don't using the quote function and write something in there in my name WHICH I NEVER WROTE?!

huh thats wierd. my comment is not aimed at you its aimed at OP. i don't know why it decided to pick your name i dont even know what you wrote in this thread

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

3 minutes ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

How about you don't using the quote function and write something in there in my name WHICH I NEVER WROTE?!

i fixed it.

Now i remember, i was gonna respond to your comment with a "ya i agree" or something like that, and then i decided to go on a rant based off the first line from the OP, and i never changed the name.

[Solo.6873]

10 hours ago, MercurialKuroSludge.8974 said:

Diviners is garbage even in PvE lmao, its a crutch to PBoon builds that want more BD, but MASSIVELY lowers their dmg.
And its funny "WB gets access to everything" except Quick (Superspeed, CC, and a lot of tools a roamer wud want), 1 of THE most important boons for burst builds, and yet its still able to function like this, clearly something is VERY, VERY wrong with it, but Anet wud rather not rework it to something that feels better to play AND better to play against.

Except the meta power build uses sigil of rage on swords. Or celerity with spear. They most definitely do have quickness.

[Fruit.7624]

10 hours ago, MercurialKuroSludge.8974 said:

Diviners is garbage even in PvE lmao, its a crutch to PBoon builds that want more BD, but MASSIVELY lowers their dmg.
And its funny "WB gets access to everything" except Quick (Superspeed, CC, and a lot of tools a roamer wud want), 1 of THE most important boons for burst builds, and yet its still able to function like this, clearly something is VERY, VERY wrong with it, but Anet wud rather not rework it to something that feels better to play AND better to play against.

Lots of roamers that actually think about how to make their build better slot in diviners or boon duration runes without tanking their damage or survivability  if they can abuse it on a certain build.
Diviners focuses on power and concentration, while ferocity and percision are minor stats - WB doesnt care, it already had ferocity and percision modifiers to make up for it..
And an overloaded class like willy benefits tons from extra boon duration, considering most of them run the alac grandmaster.
"WB gets access to everything" except Quick ( Superspeed, CC, and a lot of tools a roamer wud want) "
1) Quickness -  90% of benders run either rage or celerity. The 3 or 4 second quickness ( not counting boon duration) is more than enough for them to secure an opening burst that will either down you or make you waste a ton of your defensives. 
2) Superspeed - WB doesnt need superspeed, its literally one of, if not the fastest class in the game in terms of mobility without superspeed. If WB had superspeed on their kit it would be absolutely depressing trying to fight them, as currently one of the few ways to beat benders is for YOU to abuse superspeed and somehow dodge the 10 teleports and get some distance away from the willy.
3) CC - WB is so busted that playing literally any weapon on it works, that includes weapons with good CC, like longbow/hammer/shield offhand/spear. Also sword 5 is so strong that you can get hit for an 8k immobilze that puts slow on you - if you don't have an instant cast cleanse you are effectively CC'ed. You can also include Rolling Light/Quick Retribution utility that recently got buffed. You know there are classes that would KILL to have a stunbreak like that? Only for it to have a flip skill with 3 second daze and leap?
And lets get something straight about CC as well, CC in pretty much any game ever is a tool used for you to control your oponent so you can get damage in that you would otherwise have a harder time landing. Most other classes play like this:
 - the elementalist will land their gale, so they can burst you with scepter
 - the herald will knock you back with glint elite so they can land their damage combo
 - the thief will steal on you, so they can get an easy backstab
- the warrior will shield 4 you, or staff 4 you to get a safe arcing slice. or they will hammer combo you, to get the hammer 2's in
- the ranger will hilt bash you so they can get a safe maul, or will longbow 4 you so they can get a safe rapid fire
 - the dragon hunter will pull you with f1 into his traps, then bonk you with shield 5 to trigger the trap again
- the chrono will gravity well you so he can shatter combo you more effectively
i can go on and on really, of course there are some exceptions to this rule, but this is how it generally is supposed to play out
But willbender? They just stick on you like glue and pump their damage regardless, they dont really need CC to do their damage when half of their skills are leaps/movement abilities/shadowsteps that also deal damage and provide boons/cleanses.
The MOST dangerous willbender players are those who realize the above points and rather than go monkey mode and hold W, actually CC you with the above mentioned weapons ONTOP of their already overloaded kit.

Edited September 15 by Fruit.7624

[MercurialKuroSludge.8974]

46 minutes ago, Solo.6873 said:

Except the meta power build uses sigil of rage on swords. Or celerity with spear. They most definitely do have quickness.

If one needs an outside source like Sigils/Relics to get a boon, it most certainly doesn't fit the "Guard can upkeep every boon forever" narrative ppl like to spit out.
Thats as disingenuous as claiming other builds get "easy access to every boon in the game" by showing Sigils/Relics/changing utilities, it doesn't and never works like that.
 

12 minutes ago, Fruit.7624 said:

Lots of roamers that actually think about how to make their build better slot in diviners or boon duration runes if they can abuse it.
Diviners focuses on power and concentration, while ferocity and percision are minor stats - WB doesnt care, it already had ferocity and percision modifiers to make up for it..
And an overloaded class like willy benefits tons from extra boon duration, considering most of them run the alac grandmaster.
"WB gets access tp everything" except Quick ( Superspeed, CC, and a lot of tools a roamer wud want) "
1) Quickness -  90% of benders run either rage or celerity. The 3 or 4 second quickness ( not counting boon duration) is more than enough for them to secure an opening burst that will either down you or make you waste a ton of your defensives. 
2) Superspeed - WB doesnt need superspeed, its literally one of, if not the fastest class in the game in terms of mobility without superspeed. If WB had superspeed on their kit it would be absolutely depressing trying to fight them, as currently one of the few ways to beat benders is for YOU to abuse superspeed and somehow dodge the 10 teleports and get some distance away from the willy.
3) CC - WB is so busted that playing literally any weapon on it works, that includes weapons with good CC, like longbow/hammer/shield offhand/spear. Also sword 5 is so strong that you can get hit for an 8k immobilze that puts slow on you - if you don't have an instant cast cleanse you are effectively CC'ed. You can also include Rolling Light/Quick Retribution utility that recently got buffed. You know there are classes that would KILL to have a stunbreak like that? Only for it to have a flip skill with 3 second daze and leap?
And lets get something straight about CC as well, CC in pretty much any game ever is a tool used for you to control your oponent so you can get damage in that you would otherwise have a harder time landing. Most other classes play like this:
 - the elementalist will land their gale, so they can burst you with scepter
 - the herald will knock you back with glint elite so they can land their damage combo
 - the thief will steal on you, so they can get an easy backstab
- the warrior will shield 4 you, or staff 4 you to get a safe arcing slice. or they will hammer combo you, to get the hammer 2's in
- the ranger will hilt bash you so they can get a safe maul, or will longbow 4 you so they can get a safe rapid fire
 - the dragon hunter will pull you with f1 into his traps, then bonk you with shield 5 to trigger the trap again
- the chrono will gravity well you so he can shatter combo you more effectively
i can go on and on really, of course there are some exceptions to this rule, but this is how it generally is supposed to play out
But willbender? They just stick on you like glue and pump their damage regardless, they dont really need CC to do their damage when half of their skills are leaps/movement abilities/shadowsteps that also deal damage and provide boons/cleanses.
The MOST dangerous willbender players are those who realize the above points and rather than go monkey mode and hold W, actually CC you with the above mentioned weapons ONTOP of their already overloaded kit.

There are Runes that give BD Without completely dragging your dmg down, like Leadership/Fireworks.
Also, you and everyone else turned a Cele thread into whining about WB, claiming WB gets to abuse Concentration, then turn around AND claim that it doesn't need BD because its so busted like Marauder/Dragon, THEN turn around and claim it should/can use Diviner's for BD, what is going on with these statements going back and forth against themselves?

On top of that...Roiling Light? really? it doesn't even do the full 450 listed in the tooltip, did you even account for the part that rolls backward and thus even if you detarget, you are NOT moving towards on the first part of the skill, so the 2nd short hop of the skill ppl can literally press S away from (doesn't even need W), and what slot are you sacrificing to slot in this C tier skill?
I would at least take you more seriously if you said Flash Combo. which is yet ANOTHER chasing/disengage tool WBs get, but all you know is Whirling Light.
These responses, are like PvE map chat trying to tell raid doers how to make/play raid builds.
The only reason ppl find a lot of WBs manageable now, is becuz of bandwagoners absolutely tanking the performance of WBs across the board, you might want to think about why.

[Fruit.7624]

2 hours ago, MercurialKuroSludge.8974 said:

If one needs an outside source like Sigils/Relics to get a boon, it most certainly doesn't fit the "Guard can upkeep every boon forever" narrative ppl like to spit out.
Thats as disingenuous as claiming other builds get "easy access to every boon in the game" by showing Sigils/Relics/changing utilities, it doesn't and never works like that.
 

There are Runes that give BD Without completely dragging your dmg down, like Leadership/Fireworks.
Also, you and everyone else turned a Cele thread into whining about WB, claiming WB gets to abuse Concentration, then turn around AND claim that it doesn't need BD because its so busted like Marauder/Dragon, THEN turn around and claim it should/can use Diviner's for BD, what is going on with these statements going back and forth against themselves?

On top of that...Roiling Light? really? it doesn't even do the full 450 listed in the tooltip, did you even account for the part that rolls backward and thus even if you detarget, you are NOT moving towards on the first part of the skill, so the 2nd short hop of the skill ppl can literally press S away from (doesn't even need W), and what slot are you sacrificing to slot in this C tier skill?
I would at least take you more seriously if you said Flash Combo. which is yet ANOTHER chasing/disengage tool WBs get, but all you know is Whirling Light.
These responses, are like PvE map chat trying to tell raid doers how to make/play raid builds.
The only reason ppl find a lot of WBs manageable now, is becuz of bandwagoners absolutely tanking the performance of WBs across the board, you might want to think about why.

Sigils are absolutely a part of your build, a WB proccing a 3 second quickness is enough for them to unload half of their skills in your face, because most willbender spells have low cast time anyways.

Fireworks drags your damage down? The rune that gives 25% BD and 175 power? Maybe you did not read the part where i said WB already gets ton of extra %chance and damage from traits, therefore making up for losing those stats by picking a BD relic or Diviners.
But of course! A Willy can easily just as well play full mara or dragon and still poop out boons like its no tomorrow! When your F3 is a stunbreak that does 5-6k damage, a shadowstep and gives you 7 boons that by default last a decent amount of time, you dont neccesarily need BD to make that much better.
It's the players choice, but either way, you CANT go wrong! Cele, diviner, marauder, dragon...its still good! WB will still pump hard, will still spam boons etc..
From your comments it just seems like you are trying to say WB boons kinda suck, so why bother playing Diviner/BD gear and tanking your damage, when it is absolutely obvious that is not the case!

Roling Light/Quick Retri is just one more CC to the bunch of CC's i already listed after you said "WB's lack CC". And you can easily use the Quick Retribution few seconds after, and combo it with other shadowsteps like sword2/5/Intervention.

People whine about WB and rightfully so, after Cele it is the next big thing that needs to get nerfed, that hasnt for years. YEARS. Im not sure you understand that WB has literally been either not nerfed, or buffed every single patch since EoD.

[Solo.6873]

4 hours ago, MercurialKuroSludge.8974 said:

If one needs an outside source like Sigils/Relics to get a boon, it most certainly doesn't fit the "Guard can upkeep every boon forever" narrative ppl like to spit out.
Thats as disingenuous as claiming other builds get "easy access to every boon in the game" by showing Sigils/Relics/changing utilities, it doesn't and never works like that.

1. I don't care about uptime. That is not what I argued and honestly don't care about. Uptime for most power builds is not a focus when you have sources that renew those boons that you need quickly. So the uptime argument for me is moot. 

2. When we are talking about ACCESS to boons or effects.  Sigils (and now Relics )with  absolute certainty do count, because those things both add and/or dictate skills, rotations, or builds. Same as rune choice used to dictate certain builds you would run before relics. 

The only place WB has currently where people find it oppressive is roaming, and a lot of the time it is simply because of renewed focus. I guarantee, when that one skill no longer fully recharges virtues, a lot of complaints people have will either disappear, because the mobility will directly be affected, or continue and we will find out, very quickly, who failed dodging 101. 

To be realistic, if thieves haven't had builds in roaming nerfed ( especially when the complaints are similar). What makes people think willbenders will suddenly change too?

[One more for the road.8950]

23 hours ago, Reyhan.1208 said:

It came as a shock when my viewers told me on stream today about the incoming changes to celestial stats in WvW (the removal of concentration and expertise on October 8).

1. This will kill celestial zergs and bring us back to a meta in which every zerg is the same, from what I saw, power-based zergs and celestial zergs are on par and brought variety to the WvW experience.

2. Elementalists are designed for celestial stats. They are currently good for roaming but not used in meta zergs. The only top tier function that would be left for them is scepter roamers with ritualist stats, all other current builds will become low tier.

3. In many cases, power-based builds are outperforming celestial. The power willbender is incredibly superior to the celestial willbender. Same goes for pretty much any kind of warrior, or thief. It really feels like trying to repair something that's not broken.

4. Having a balanced approach is part of Guild Wars 2's DNA, and celestial stats reflect that well.

5. If this goes through, what kind of compensation will I get ? Such a change would mean :
    - spliting builds that work in both pve and wvw into two different equipment slots. Do I get free equipment slots ?
    - over 9 characters, I have 15 equipment slots using celestial stats either fully or as a base, that will need to be revamped. Do I get back the hundreds of gold I spent for these, the runes on them, materials for the ones I crafted, the thousands of Memory of Battle, and the many very real-life hours spent acquiring these soon to be useless because underperforming items ? 

6. If you sincerely do think that celestial should be nerfed, why not do it with a decrease on stats ? Why not simply tone it down, instead of breaking it with a hammer ? A -45 on all stats, which would basically cancel out the celestial food, would be a balanced option, satisfying both those who want celestial stats to be nerfed and those who would otherwise lose so many builds and equipment that goes with it ?

How to tell you didn't know Celestial got expertise and concentration added in 2021 on top of the other stats without removing or nerfing any of the existing without saying you didn't know.

Basically, new WvW Celestial is just reverting back to the original Celestial.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

11 hours ago, Byaku.8273 said:

• 3 stat gear total stats: 609
• 4 stat gear total stats: 666 (+9.36%)
• cele gear total stats: 1062 (+74.34%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
• cele after nerf total stats: 826 (+35%)

So what you're telling me is that 4-stat gear is to blame for all of this, because they do the Devil's work!  I KNEW IT!

[MercurialKuroSludge.8974]

4 hours ago, Solo.6873 said:

1. I don't care about uptime. That is not what I argued and honestly don't care about. Uptime for most power builds is not a focus when you have sources that renew those boons that you need quickly. So the uptime argument for me is moot. 

2. When we are talking about ACCESS to boons or effects.  Sigils (and now Relics )with  absolute certainty do count, because those things both add and/or dictate skills, rotations, or builds. Same as rune choice used to dictate certain builds you would run before relics. 

The only place WB has currently where people find it oppressive is roaming, and a lot of the time it is simply because of renewed focus. I guarantee, when that one skill no longer fully recharges virtues, a lot of complaints people have will either disappear, because the mobility will directly be affected, or continue and we will find out, very quickly, who failed dodging 101. 

To be realistic, if thieves haven't had builds in roaming nerfed ( especially when the complaints are similar). What makes people think willbenders will suddenly change too?

Ah, my apologies, Im too used to ppl exaggerating with random bull.
You have fair points, and yes RF nerf probably will make a lot of complaints go away.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Having played with Cele prior to the original buff, and afterwards on Warrior of all things, at least from my experience it was never OP. It was just people who didn't build glassy enough to instagib them complaining. That will remain the case.

FWIW, though I firmly believe Cele was being scapegoated when it was the EOD specs to blame for all the heartburn post EOD, I still believe that all the stat combinations should give the same stat TOTALS, either by buffing the 3 stat gear to the 4 stat total, and nerfing Cele down, or by nerfing both the 4 stat and Cele gear down to the 3 stat gear total.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

When I saw the nerf to Cele, I knew I would get some good content here. 

 

[joneirikb.7506]

3 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

When I saw the nerf to Cele, I knew I would get some good content here. 

 

I'm not going to lie, the moment guildies mentioned it, I rushed to the forums to watch the fireworks.