Classic Anet with overnerfs.

[Shao.7236]

Energy Expulsion should be 40, not 50. Have you not learned anything from the old?

Purifying Essence should be 8 seconds, not 10 seconds. Revenant by default has almost no clears, don't make it's best option trash because some busted spec benefits from it.

If Vindicator is causing issues, fix Vindicator. Don't nerf the whole class. Thanks.

[Jobber.6348]

It's misguided nerfing. And yea they will never nerf Vindicator until it's too late, then nerf Vindicator to the dirt and leave the entire class in shambles. This will be the 2nd time this has happened. 

Anet is clearly biased toward their favourite Blue class and Clone spammer, so everyone else has to pay the price to keep them on top. 

Edited October 9 by Jobber.6348

[vilesoldier.9826]

why are 50 energy cost skills still in the game btw

 

[Jobber.6348]

8 minutes ago, vilesoldier.9826 said:

why are 50 energy cost skills still in the game btw

 

Because Anet devs do not play Revenant and don't understand how Energy, pip based generation and weapon skills work. So they think everything is a numbers game and they can balance accordingly, unknowingly destroying gameplay flow because there are huge ramifications for an unchangable utility set that needs to budget its resource. Kalla rework is a clear example they do not understand how Energy works, taking for granted that Charged Mists's 75 energy is an omnipresent factor and thus designed a skill-chain mechanic.

[vilesoldier.9826]

9 minutes ago, Jobber.6348 said:

Because Anet devs do not play Revenant and don't understand how Energy, pip based generation and weapon skills work. So they think everything is a numbers game and they can balance accordingly, unknowingly destroying gameplay flow because there are huge ramifications for an unchangable utility set that needs to budget its resource. Kalla rework is a clear example they do not understand how Energy works, taking for granted that Charged Mists's 75 energy is an omnipresent factor and thus designed a skill-chain mechanic.

 

Creating reworks that require more energy spent for your legend to function 🤝 Increasing energy costs so you can’t press two utilities 🤝 Not improving the newly expensive skills in any way

[UncreativeGreen.2019]

I just like how it went from, "we'd like to buff ventari to see more of it as a healing role in spvp"

... and an increase to the outgoing healing bonuses in the Salvation trait line for potential support builds in PvP.

• Invoking Harmony: Increased the outgoing healing bonus from 10% to 15% in PvP only.
• Serene Rejuvenation: Increased the outgoing healing bonus from 15% to 20% in PvP only.

To the MAT happening and the viable support build showing what they could do before these buffs even went into effect and decided to nerf almost every aspect of it all at once. All within a span of a month. It's just extremely obvious that they don't know what the class is capable of and have a very narrow idea of how it should be played.

Also I love how both versions of Energy Expulsion are over-nerfed in Spvp and WvW but in like opposite directions. One is 2s cooldown with a 50e cost and the other is a 15s cooldown with a 35e cost. Like they couldn't even agree on how it should be nerfed in the competitive modes. 

 

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Those nerfs are just straight up nasty. Christ I cannot stand the way they choose to balance some Rev stuff. It feels like they are trying to fit a square peg into a triangle shaped hole. Really sad to see. 

[Jobber.6348]

3 hours ago, UncreativeGreen.2019 said:

I just like how it went from, "we'd like to buff ventari to see more of it as a healing role in spvp"

... and an increase to the outgoing healing bonuses in the Salvation trait line for potential support builds in PvP.

• Invoking Harmony: Increased the outgoing healing bonus from 10% to 15% in PvP only.
• Serene Rejuvenation: Increased the outgoing healing bonus from 15% to 20% in PvP only.

To the MAT happening and the viable support build showing what they could do before these buffs even went into effect and decided to nerf almost every aspect of it all at once. All within a span of a month. It's just extremely obvious that they don't know what the class is capable of and have a very narrow idea of how it should be played.

Also I love how both versions of Energy Expulsion are over-nerfed in Spvp and WvW but in like opposite directions. One is 2s cooldown with a 50e cost and the other is a 15s cooldown with a 35e cost. Like they couldn't even agree on how it should be nerfed in the competitive modes. 

 

 

More reason to suspect that the real balance team are the PvP players. That's why their mode hasn't been closed down years ago. 

[Aeolus.3615]

just wait till anet finds a build on revenant where will benders cant kill easily  and need to put effort.

Edited October 9 by Aeolus.3615

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

just wait till anet finds a build on revenant where will benders cant kill easily  and need to put effort.

The irony when you can still win 1v1's with centaur stance on renegade and even more fun winning 1v2's willbenders 😅

[Jobber.6348]

3 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

just wait till anet finds a build on revenant where will benders cant kill easily  and need to put effort.

 

59 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

The irony when you can still win 1v1's with centaur stance on renegade and even more fun winning 1v2's willbenders 😅

 

Many builds can survive Benders and even bury them if played well in PvP where Anet actually cares to balance the coefficients and have amulet limiting stats. Willbenders are really much more of a WvW epidemic along with a whole handful of EoD specs. 

[Tammuz.7361]

On 10/8/2024 at 9:07 PM, Jobber.6348 said:

It's misguided nerfing. And yea they will never nerf Vindicator until it's too late, then nerf Vindicator to the dirt and leave the entire class in shambles. This will be the 2nd time this has happened. 

Anet is clearly biased toward their favourite Blue class and Clone spammer, so everyone else has to pay the price to keep them on top. 

agree, at this point play guardian, play mesmer, or dont play the game at all

[Flowki.7194]

On 10/8/2024 at 11:42 PM, Shao.7236 said:

Energy Expulsion should be 40, not 50. Have you not learned anything from the old?

Purifying Essence should be 8 seconds, not 10 seconds. Revenant by default has almost no clears, don't make it's best option trash because some busted spec benefits from it.

If Vindicator is causing issues, fix Vindicator. Don't nerf the whole class. Thanks.

There was no need to change expultion energy cost at all. The reason ventari was so functional (despite popular belief) was the energy costs allowed it to be functional. Just take right of dwarf/jade winds.. on paper they look amazing if traited, -50% condi and physical + aoe CC. In practice, the energy cost is too much to utilise it as a mitigation/cc play style (as in chaining them). I even tested builds with replenishing dispair, which can keep you in combat to build full energy between fights.. it isn't worth it. Expultion stood out becuase of the lower cost but more importantly, its multi function. If the enemy had stab-block-invuln, you could not CC, but you still gave team stab+resistance+healing (vital support boons to escape a gank), and the energy cost did not kitten you, so you could still use some defensives, even a cleanse right after.

 

Now, you have to pick, if you want stab, thats all you get, and then there is an awkward 2-3 seconds of being able to do absolutely nothing meaningful, as soon as you can use something, you are instantly back to 0 energy, and if you get jumped in that moment, no choice but to legend swap, even if the jump is not high threat, you just have to swap. I mean kitten.. imagin if when every class poped their stab, they had to satand there doing nothing for 2 seconds? Its fking rediculous. I have tried playing it some more since the nerfs, and now, you basically have to start with ventari, use expultion on team to give stab before fight start, then legend swap instantly.. you can't wait around for energy or else team mates start dropping. That is not worth a full legeld, it would be like playing shiro, and phase trans is a 50 energy cost, TP in.. then no energy to do fk all after that, Whats the point?

 

Now all I can think to do is abuse the dome cleanse combos with hammer autos/3/5, and mostly ignore expultion use. Ventari serves 0 other dependable purpose aside from than that now. It is not quite as useless as dwarf stance, but that aint saying much. The nerf to ventari is directly related to spear, and some kitten streamer who lost a fight to a ventari rev. Imagine that is how Anet balance things?.. due to single streamers, and the desire to not nerf their new content. Fking monkeys.

 

Don't be pandering to this bs that ventari energy costs were the problem, they were not.. they were litterally what kept it remotely viable as a group fight/support/utility build. Any other problems, if there were any, came from duration/stacks of boons, perhaps healing amount across ventari, but more importantly.. spear. Nobody said kitten about ventari until spear. Ontop of that, we all know herald condi is the most brainded virsion of rev condi.. and it is currently spear heralds running around as the only viable rev condi build left. Nobody wins here, not the revs on other condi builds, not the players having to vs spear herald.

 

Oh and I should add. With no ventari or HUGE delay between expultions, this is a massive buff to reapers, who were already doing very well in group fights. Ventari was litterally one of the few gate keepers of reaper (not that anybody knew it). Now, not at all.. no group support rev build can deal with reapers on point, not one. Too much condi, too much CC.. Did I mention Anet are monkeys?

Edited October 14 by Flowki.7194

[vilesoldier.9826]

1 hour ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Ontop of that, we all know herald condi is the most brainded virsion of rev condi.. and it is currently spear heralds running around as the only viable rev condi build left. Nobody wins here, not the revs on other condi builds, not the players having to vs spear herald.

 

Pot calling the kettle black 💀

Edited October 14 by vilesoldier.9826

[Shao.7236]

4 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

There was no need to change expultion energy cost at all. The reason ventari was so functional (despite popular belief) was the energy costs allowed it to be functional. Just take right of dwarf/jade winds.. on paper they look amazing if traited, -50% condi and physical + aoe CC. In practice, the energy cost is too much to utilise it as a mitigation/cc play style (as in chaining them). I even tested builds with replenishing dispair, which can keep you in combat to build full energy between fights.. it isn't worth it. Expultion stood out becuase of the lower cost but more importantly, its multi function. If the enemy had stab-block-invuln, you could not CC, but you still gave team stab+resistance+healing (vital support boons to escape a gank), and the energy cost did not kitten you, so you could still use some defensives, even a cleanse right after.

 

Now, you have to pick, if you want stab, thats all you get, and then there is an awkward 2-3 seconds of being able to do absolutely nothing meaningful, as soon as you can use something, you are instantly back to 0 energy, and if you get jumped in that moment, no choice but to legend swap, even if the jump is not high threat, you just have to swap. I mean kitten.. imagin if when every class poped their stab, they had to satand there doing nothing for 2 seconds? Its fking rediculous. I have tried playing it some more since the nerfs, and now, you basically have to start with ventari, use expultion on team to give stab before fight start, then legend swap instantly.. you can't wait around for energy or else team mates start dropping. That is not worth a full legeld, it would be like playing shiro, and phase trans is a 50 energy cost, TP in.. then no energy to do fk all after that, Whats the point?

 

Now all I can think to do is abuse the dome cleanse combos with hammer autos/3/5, and mostly ignore expultion use. Ventari serves 0 other dependable purpose aside from than that now. It is not quite as useless as dwarf stance, but that aint saying much. The nerf to ventari is directly related to spear, and some kitten streamer who lost a fight to a ventari rev. Imagine that is how Anet balance things?.. due to single streamers, and the desire to not nerf their new content. Fking monkeys.

 

Don't be pandering to this bs that ventari energy costs were the problem, they were not.. they were litterally what kept it remotely viable as a group fight/support/utility build. Any other problems, if there were any, came from duration/stacks of boons, perhaps healing amount across ventari, but more importantly.. spear. Nobody said kitten about ventari until spear. Ontop of that, we all know herald condi is the most brainded virsion of rev condi.. and it is currently spear heralds running around as the only viable rev condi build left. Nobody wins here, not the revs on other condi builds, not the players having to vs spear herald.

 

Oh and I should add. With no ventari or HUGE delay between expultions, this is a massive buff to reapers, who were already doing very well in group fights. Ventari was litterally one of the few gate keepers of reaper (not that anybody knew it). Now, not at all.. no group support rev build can deal with reapers on point, not one. Too much condi, too much CC.. Did I mention Anet are monkeys?

I can mostly agree on what you say, but the fact that I could back to back use Energy Expulsion so easily at least 3 times in a row is a cause for concern.

Let's not forget that energy is a constant, by the time you use something, you already have 5% energy back on average. Tweaking overperforming skills at the bare minimum of 5% should be the way to go.

I play as Core mostly so it's easy to say that I had the most fun with EE with the extra energy that gives choice in utility.

Herald gets to be more passive with a large AoE cleanse and one of the best heal skill for self sustain.

Renegade "can" be good for node fights if your team understand the elite of both legends but it definitely sits as the least supportive of elites in terms of buffs. Kalla still needs cleanses too, the legend is just too vulnerable and relies too much on building up to it.

Vindicator has Shiro/Ventari all-in-one variation on top of the better evades.

Edited October 14 by Shao.7236

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Shao.7236 said:

I can mostly agree on what you say, but the fact that I could back to back use Energy Expulsion so easily at least 3 times in a row is a cause for concern.

Let's not forget that energy is a constant, by the time you use something, you already have 5% energy back on average. Tweaking overperforming skills at the bare minimum of 5% should be the way to go.

I play as Core mostly so it's easy to say that I had the most fun with EE with the extra energy that gives choice in utility.

Herald gets to be more passive with a large AoE cleanse and one of the best heal skill for self sustain.

Renegade "can" be good for node fights if your team understand the elite of both legends but it definitely sits as the least supportive of elites in terms of buffs. Kalla still needs cleanses too, the legend is just too vulnerable and relies too much on building up to it.

Vindicator has Shiro/Ventari all-in-one variation on top of the better evades.

Go into a group fight with ventari when they have reaper+support, and then tell me you didn't need the stab. The cleanse/overall healing nerfs to ventari alone were enough to make that fight a loss.

Edited October 14 by Flowki.7194

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Wth happened to " Rev is a class favored by the best players and the best players tend to win more"?

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Wth happened to " Rev is a class favored by the best players and the best players tend to win more"?

The best players left the game, and now the betas are running around on WB/Virt/SPB/Reaper.

[Shao.7236]

3 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Go into a group fight with ventari when they have reaper+support, and then tell me you didn't need the stab. The cleanse/overall healing nerfs to ventari alone were enough to make that fight a loss.

Not saying we don't need it, I'm saying 35 feels a bit low for all the benefits while 40 is a known baseline for strong utility.

[Flowki.7194]

24 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Not saying we don't need it, I'm saying 35 feels a bit low for all the benefits while 40 is a known baseline for strong utility.

And again I point toward ventris function, a support legend with no stunbreaks. I think balancing everything to match a "baseline" is not a very good idea.. becuase ventari is the only legend with no stunbreak, it should not be treat the same. It would have been better if they removed the CC from ventari.. becuase the boon uptime is a must in group fights, you know that.

 

I would also argue mally stunbreak really needs a stack of stab by defualt, and inspiring on dwarf should be the stunbreak, not the elite. Anet need to update this kitten to be usable, rev is way behind on pre-stab access, in a very heavy CC game. On the power side of things, it requires revs to be intolerably better/more consistant at the game than most other specs.. becuase it relys a lot more on dodge, positioning, timing, and the very few blocks/poor condi cleanse across all power specs. Condi specs are now in the same boat with no ventari, very poor stab, very poor condi cleanse, poor resistance.. and doesnt even have spike burst as the upside.

 

All rev builds condi or power, are now forced into a hit and run roam playstyle, while any type of support/utility role is now unplayable. That is fking shockingly bad from Anet. Vindi "was" a decent support, but the rediculous nerfs to Urn, and now to ventari have utterly killed it. For urn they could have removed the dmg reduction/speed element if their intention was to nerf power vindi (even though the deathdrop nerf was all that was really needed.. and maybe hammer 4).. but they butchered urn, just like they butchered ventari.. and people are trying to damage control and justify all this? Support/utility roles were so under played to begin with, now they are absolutely dead on rev.

 

I mean, I guess axe thieves spamming 3 buttons, didnt like having to press one extra button (weapon swap) to deal with dome? Or I dunno, I guess SPBs/reapers didn't like the fact they might actually have to boon check and time currupt/rips? Rather than just spamming CC? Who knows. What spec what that kitten streamer playing?

Edited October 14 by Flowki.7194

[arazoth.7290]

22 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Not saying we don't need it, I'm saying 35 feels a bit low for all the benefits while 40 is a known baseline for strong utility.

Energy Management on revenant isn't balanced for core revenant, it's balanced around elite specs. They don't care about core rev having more energy, otherwise this was already nerfed too. 

35 energy was perfectly balanced for elite specs, bur if they want to increase it should be maximum 40 energy and not 50.

 

Don't look at core revenant for it, because the F skill makes it easier to use, and this is not present on elites. So leave that stupid argument behind

 

[Flowki.7194]

Just now, arazoth.7290 said:

Energy Management on revenant isn't balanced for core revenant, it's balanced around elite specs. They don't care about core rev having more energy, otherwise this was already nerfed too. 

35 energy was perfectly balanced for elite specs, bur if they want to increase it should be maximum 40 energy and not 50.

 

Don't look at core revenant for it, because the F skill makes it easier to use, and this is not present on elites. So leave that stupid argument behind

 

Yes I agree with that also, half of the reason I played core was to refresh the empowerment, which offered more flexibility in team support. I also just really like mallyx.. and if they are not going to revert venteri nerfs they really gotte fix the stab/stunbreak issues in mallyx/dwarf.

[arazoth.7290]

Just now, Flowki.7194 said:

Yes I agree with that also, half of the reason I played core was to refresh the empowerment, which offered more flexibility in team support. I also just really like mallyx.. and if they are not going to revert venteri nerfs they really gotte fix the stab/stunbreak issues in mallyx/dwarf.

50 energy costs on revenant just does not work, should never been done and yet...

[Jobber.6348]

6 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Wth happened to " Rev is a class favored by the best players and the best players tend to win more"?

Rev is no longer favored by the dev team and the classes favored by the dev team wins more. 

[Shao.7236]

3 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

And again I point toward ventris function, a support legend with no stunbreaks. I think balancing everything to match a "baseline" is not a very good idea.. becuase ventari is the only legend with no stunbreak, it should not be treat the same. It would have been better if they removed the CC from ventari.. becuase the boon uptime is a must in group fights, you know that.

The point is to test that baseline, it would be better than the 50 we have currently.

There are ways to alleviate most weaknesses of Ventari, case in point. Being stunned with my build had no consequences most of the time because if I swap to Ventari fresh I have resistance by default and can just stun my enemy, otherwise I never get stunned because I know how to manage the stability and if I did get stunned it was proper counter play despite the possible CC spam I could provide.

It took a very specific kind of build to deal with that high uptime Stability on ventari which is not good, now it obviously doesn't but thats not because players got better, they just made it unplayable rather than changing for player to use their brain figuring it out.

Think about it in real time for any elites and not just core, if I EE fresh, I have 5 sec stab and 20% that will be 35% in 3 seconds, then I can have 7 sec of stab which in real time will be enough to get another 5 seconds of stab at 35% because it takes 7 seconds to reach 35%. That's 3 stuns with more than 10 seconds stab that I can just safely switch back to my other legend if need be.

To alleviate that they would need to put a CD on EE which is a big no no, changing the boons duration is definitely a big nono, adding 5% energy to 40 however would allow for some counter play without leaving the player useless.

So Stunbreak or not, you can do really strong things with the Tablet and not having one is not a valid way to ignore the possible scenario above, because that was without ancient echo, with ancient echo you could do soooo much more EE it's not fun to play against.