Jump to content
  • Sign Up

I understand now...why Core players were upset with HoT.

Taltevus.3289

By Taltevus.3289
in Player vs. Player

Recommended Posts

Swagg.9236

Swagg.9236

Posted
Posted

@Vayne.8563 said:

@"Sharen Graves.1276" said:And now you see why it's GG for the game as a whole. They will never balance the core with HoT, and never balance HoT with PoF. Next Expack PoF will be knocked down a tier and core will be nothing but a myth. So they are right when they said that "GW2 dont have a gear treadmill." They just have a spec treadmill.

Some treadmill. Most of my characters had the new elite spec unlocked the moment they got into PoF, because I had enough points to unlock them....before even playing the expansion. Yes, new specs are better than core specs, but PoF specs aren't necessarily better than HoT specs. And they are mutually exclusive. You never have to learn druid to become a soul beast.

It's a completely different situation.

Well...you don't need to unlock specs in PVP mode. I am not addressing PVE where you do have to unlock them. I skipped this expansion...and man I am glad I did but it's definitely enjoyable. PoF Specs from my observation are better than Core and HoT Specs. Just from watching what people are running. And what they are capable of doing. I am just saying I get it now why people were so upset with HoT and now here I am upset with PoF.

I don't know I still see plenty of HoT specs when I go into PvP, but honestly, this is the case for every MMO on the planet. You buy expansions to remain relevant. No one is going to give you a game you can play forever, without spending a penny because that's how games go out of business. You either like the game, pay for expansions (every two years is nothing for a game like this) or you don't. Other MMOs pretty much universally raise the level cap and introduce new tiers of gear. If anything this game is fairer for PvP than other MMOs.

In other words, storm in a teacup.
  • Masteries are a level cap increase which is just called something else.
  • HoT gear stats are objectively better than core sets due to condi creep, and are obscenely more tedious to acquire than the same process in core.
  • The cosmetic end-game was pathetic in HoT and hardly any better in PoF.
  • The specs were (and still are) direct upgrades to core rather than the proclaimed "alternative playstyles" touted by the devs.

You never saw Distracting Shot leave the bars of GW1 Rangers because an expac suddenly added a better d-shot, and there were many more skills in the same category rather than exceptions. GW2, on the other hand, is embodied by its willingness to repeatedly destroy and abandon pre-established ideas and developmental direction on a whim. This game and its dev team made fundamental promises on content design which were broken out a mere 3 months after launch. Relevancy is one thing, but the only thing that the GW2 expansions have consistently created is bloat: either the new class specs outright supplant old options (which then effectively never see use again despite still existing) or the new specs enter into the game already rotting in a state of dis-use (because the old specs are still numerically better).

Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • Replies 56
  • Created
  • Last Reply
Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Posted
Posted

@Rodzynald.5897 said:

@"Sharen Graves.1276" said:And now you see why it's GG for the game as a whole. They will never balance the core with HoT, and never balance HoT with PoF. Next Expack PoF will be knocked down a tier and core will be nothing but a myth. So they are right when they said that "GW2 dont have a gear treadmill." They just have a spec treadmill.

Some treadmill. Most of my characters had the new elite spec unlocked the moment they got into PoF, because I had enough points to unlock them....before even playing the expansion. Yes, new specs are better than core specs, but PoF specs aren't necessarily better than HoT specs. And they are mutually exclusive. You never have to learn druid to become a soul beast.

It's a completely different situation.

Well...you don't need to unlock specs in PVP mode. I am not addressing PVE where you do have to unlock them. I skipped this expansion...and man I am glad I did but it's definitely enjoyable. PoF Specs from my observation are better than Core and HoT Specs. Just from watching what people are running. And what they are capable of doing. I am just saying I get it now why people were so upset with HoT and now here I am upset with PoF.

I don't know I still see plenty of HoT specs when I go into PvP, but honestly, this is the case for every MMO on the planet. You buy expansions to remain relevant. No one is going to give you a game you can play forever, without spending a penny because that's how games go out of business. You either like the game, pay for expansions (every two years is nothing for a game like this) or you don't. Other MMOs pretty much universally raise the level cap and introduce new tiers of gear. If anything this game is fairer for PvP than other MMOs.

In other words, storm in a teacup.

Actually I don't see much of HoT specs, maybe that's because they melt most of the time once they start to fight with PoF specs.And I still cannot understand how people say that pvp may be "fairer for PvP than other MMOs". I am currently playing Tera and the pvp there is way better, I get the same feeling, the same good vibes coming from it as back at GW2 vanilla. Mostly just because I know that most classes are not capable of gimmicks and shenanigans or passive savings procs like in here. Once you screw up, you die, just how it should be. I really wish they made at least ONE weekend or week of turned off elite specs for pvp between seasons, so that we can roll with core on unranked and get crazy with creativity. See how that works out, it might be a good learning experience.

Oh look what I found, a link from the Tera forums. This guy would disagree with you:

You give me one thread with just a handful of players discussing on it? Sorry, an exception is not a status quo, besides, it smells like l2p issue. I would rather pick a heck strong class in one thing than something that has an access to multiple means of fighting at the same time. I've noticed what is happening, but at least I rest assured that what I fight won't suddenly go passively invulnerable the moment I am about to land a killing blow, or use some skill that gives you mobility, can't be hit while doing it and heals at the end-sort of thing. Also I don't mind 1 shots as long as they can be 1 shotted themselves.This would straighten things up a bit, to build classes around one specific thing and branch out around them, instead of slapping everything on it. As I've stated many times before, vanilla GW2 had more risk and reward to it. There was no rinse and repeat for eternity (except cele ele, that was a mistake).

I gave you one thread out of the first 1 second I did a search on it. If you're denying that's the only thread, then I don't know what to tell you. It takes a minimum amount of effort on anyone's part to find complaints about balance in games of any kind.

More to the point, with the whole 2 upvotes you've gotten in this thread it doesn't really look like you have wide scale community support for what you're actually saying. A couple of people agree with you. I wonder how this post would fair on reddit, or if downvotes were accepted.

To put it bluntly, I can't think of any MMO that doesn't add some power creep of some kind in an expansion and expansions never made a game pay to win. Pay to win has always referred to the cash shop, and micro transactions, not buying the next installment of a game. By that definition every single MMO would be pay to win, and the word itself would lose all meaning.

Pay to win, as a term, exists to let people know what's a legit MMO and which MMO you can buy power in the cash shop. In BDO for example, the person with the most healing potion wins, which can be bought in the cash shop, making BDO a pay to win game. You have to keep paying to buy more pots. In Guild Wars 2, you have to buy an expansion to stay current, same with every MMO on the planet.

People say I'm a white knight, but this post doesn't seem to have a lot of support behind it.

I've just searched Tera discussion forum for more threads with "PvP" words in it. There are only 4 pages with about 3 or 4 threads directly complaining about something, only one or two of them are of any significance and that is... hardly convincing. I don't post as much as you so of course I won't get as many thumbs, but I don't care if I get them or if anyone else gets them, I'll speak my mind anyway, this is why forums exist.

As much as HoT and PoF may appear to be p2w, as you stated, there is pretty much no good mmorpg without at least a tiny bit of p2w in it, but that is not the main point that I tried to explain, which was about jack of all trades (or more trades than they should) that are better with more power creep introduced into the game.But anyway, no matter what you say, you cannot change nor deny the fact of what this mode was and how it is now. The gradual decline in playerbase, it already happened and it happened due to powercreep as one of the main reasons. A simple comparison between different well known titles is enough to leave GW2 PvP somewhere in a dark corner. Maybe now it stays on a "stable" level, but it is just a shadow of what it once was.

On the bright note, unranked pvp is quite enjoyable during pvp season. People don't tryhard so much and it's easier to goof around :D

P.S.White knight is a term used to describe men who defend women online and expect some action in return.

Just commenting on your definition of White Knight, which I found online after looking it up. Here's the Webster dictionary definition (or one of them anyway)

"One that champions a cause."

When people use White Knight on a forum this is the usage that best fits. And while slang dictionaries do have value in certain cases, it's not the only definition of the word, and isn't the one that's generally meant. In context on a game forum, it usually means someone who champions the game or it's developers, blindly and without thought. Since I have my complaints, and don't reply to every negative thread, I would say my defense of certain aspects of the game are not blind.

I'm not going to comment on the rest of your post for fear of getting infracted. I'll stick to posting on reddit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Les.4872

Les.4872

Posted
Posted

@Swagg.9236 said:

@"Sharen Graves.1276" said:And now you see why it's GG for the game as a whole. They will never balance the core with HoT, and never balance HoT with PoF. Next Expack PoF will be knocked down a tier and core will be nothing but a myth. So they are right when they said that "GW2 dont have a gear treadmill." They just have a spec treadmill.

Some treadmill. Most of my characters had the new elite spec unlocked the moment they got into PoF, because I had enough points to unlock them....before even playing the expansion. Yes, new specs are better than core specs, but PoF specs aren't necessarily better than HoT specs. And they are mutually exclusive. You never have to learn druid to become a soul beast.

It's a completely different situation.

Well...you don't need to unlock specs in PVP mode. I am not addressing PVE where you do have to unlock them. I skipped this expansion...and man I am glad I did but it's definitely enjoyable. PoF Specs from my observation are better than Core and HoT Specs. Just from watching what people are running. And what they are capable of doing. I am just saying I get it now why people were so upset with HoT and now here I am upset with PoF.

I don't know I still see plenty of HoT specs when I go into PvP, but honestly, this is the case for every MMO on the planet. You buy expansions to remain relevant. No one is going to give you a game you can play forever, without spending a penny because that's how games go out of business. You either like the game, pay for expansions (every two years is nothing for a game like this) or you don't. Other MMOs pretty much universally raise the level cap and introduce new tiers of gear. If anything this game is fairer for PvP than other MMOs.

In other words, storm in a teacup.
  • Masteries are a level cap increased which is just called something else.
  • HoT gear stats are objectively better than core sets due to condi creep, and are obscenely more tedious to acquire than the same process in core.
  • The cosmetic end-game was pathetic in HoT and hardly any better in PoF.
  • The specs were (and still are) direct upgrades to core rather than the proclaimed "alternative playstyles" touted by the devs.

You never saw Distracting Shot leave the bars of GW1 Rangers because an expac suddenly added a better d-shot, and there were many more skills in the same category rather than exceptions. GW2, on the other hand, is embodied by its willingness to repeatedly destroy and abandon pre-established ideas and developmental direction on a whim. This game and its dev team made fundamental promises on content design which were broken out a mere 3 months after launch. Relevancy is one thing, but the only thing that the GW2 expansions have consistently created is bloat: either the new class specs outright supplant old options (which then effectively never see use again despite still existing) or the new specs enter into the game already rotting in a state of dis-use (because the old specs are still numerically better).

Sometimes I feel people like yourself like talking out of your ass. The new elite specs are supposed to improve the pre-existing classes and to a certain extent, change the gameplay of the classes which, i feel, anet succeeded in doing with most classes. And "effectively never see use again?" Like what are you even saying? The meta changes with each balance patch and some specs become more relevant than others. You're only being like this because your "favourite" is performing so poorly compared to others. The most recent update at the start of the season made core thief relevant again and we can expect changes like that in the future but sure if you want to die down in that pessimistic mindset be my guest. All people like you do is complain instead of contribute to productive discussion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Swagg.9236

Swagg.9236

Posted
Posted

@Les.4872 said:

@"Sharen Graves.1276" said:And now you see why it's GG for the game as a whole. They will never balance the core with HoT, and never balance HoT with PoF. Next Expack PoF will be knocked down a tier and core will be nothing but a myth. So they are right when they said that "GW2 dont have a gear treadmill." They just have a spec treadmill.

Some treadmill. Most of my characters had the new elite spec unlocked the moment they got into PoF, because I had enough points to unlock them....before even playing the expansion. Yes, new specs are better than core specs, but PoF specs aren't necessarily better than HoT specs. And they are mutually exclusive. You never have to learn druid to become a soul beast.

It's a completely different situation.

Well...you don't need to unlock specs in PVP mode. I am not addressing PVE where you do have to unlock them. I skipped this expansion...and man I am glad I did but it's definitely enjoyable. PoF Specs from my observation are better than Core and HoT Specs. Just from watching what people are running. And what they are capable of doing. I am just saying I get it now why people were so upset with HoT and now here I am upset with PoF.

I don't know I still see plenty of HoT specs when I go into PvP, but honestly, this is the case for every MMO on the planet. You buy expansions to remain relevant. No one is going to give you a game you can play forever, without spending a penny because that's how games go out of business. You either like the game, pay for expansions (every two years is nothing for a game like this) or you don't. Other MMOs pretty much universally raise the level cap and introduce new tiers of gear. If anything this game is fairer for PvP than other MMOs.

In other words, storm in a teacup.
  • Masteries are a level cap increased which is just called something else.
  • HoT gear stats are objectively better than core sets due to condi creep, and are obscenely more tedious to acquire than the same process in core.
  • The cosmetic end-game was pathetic in HoT and hardly any better in PoF.
  • The specs were (and still are) direct upgrades to core rather than the proclaimed "alternative playstyles" touted by the devs.

You never saw Distracting Shot leave the bars of GW1 Rangers because an expac suddenly added a better d-shot, and there were many more skills in the same category rather than exceptions. GW2, on the other hand, is embodied by its willingness to repeatedly destroy and abandon pre-established ideas and developmental direction on a whim. This game and its dev team made fundamental promises on content design which were broken out a mere 3 months after launch. Relevancy is one thing, but the only thing that the GW2 expansions have consistently created is bloat: either the new class specs outright supplant old options (which then effectively never see use again despite still existing) or the new specs enter into the game already rotting in a state of dis-use (because the old specs are still numerically better).

Sometimes I feel people like yourself like talking out of your kitten. The new elite specs are supposed to improve the pre-existing classes and to a certain extent, change the gameplay of the classes which, i feel, anet succeeded in doing with most classes. And "effectively never see use again?" Like what are you even saying? The meta changes with each balance patch and some specs become more relevant than others. You're only being like this because your "favourite" is performing so poorly compared to others. The most recent update at the start of the season made core thief relevant again and we can expect changes like that in the future but sure if you want to die down in that pessimistic mindset be my guest. All people like you do is complain instead of contribute to productive discussion.

Just because you have no real counterpoints doesn't mean that I'm just a big bag of humbug that everyone needs to ignore. In fact, you're no different than the people promoting the idea of "wrongthink" by demonizing opposition with name-calling.

  • Slapping a shiny new button onto a class/build which has already been played to death for 3-5 years is not a new gameplay style, no matter how overpowered that button is.
  • All of the new things that classes get are just arbitrarily better or worse versions of things that other classes already do. Nothing fundamental has changed about GW2 combat since beta.

The only reason you hear so much out of "we people" is because anet should have admitted their dreadful design mistakes long ago and now most players are just fed up of waiting for them to say it on their own.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
KrHome.1920

KrHome.1920

Posted
Posted

Mesmer and its elite specs are a very bad example to show power creep. Mirage is currently broken and so logically it's stronger than Chrono.

If you look at every other class you won't come to this conclusion.

Guardian: viable builds in all specsWarrior: viable builds in all specsThief: PoF spec is even the weakest (besides the oneshot one-trick-pony-build)Necromancer: Core is trash, Power Reaper and Condi Scourge are equally viable (but both have some balancing issues that need to be adressed)Revenant: does anyone even play the PoF spec?Elementalist: I've duelled crazy strong Tempest and Weaver builds - it's like with necro, 1 out of 100 players can handle the full potential of the classEngineer: Core condi, Scrapper sustain and Holo burst are strongRanger: Core is pretty weak, but Druid and Soubeast are viable

I see the elite traitlines like the elite skills in GW1. You can create a build without them, but this build will be relatively weak. To me core specs are just placeholders now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Posted
Posted

@Swagg.9236 said:

@Les.4872 said:

@"Sharen Graves.1276" said:And now you see why it's GG for the game as a whole. They will never balance the core with HoT, and never balance HoT with PoF. Next Expack PoF will be knocked down a tier and core will be nothing but a myth. So they are right when they said that "GW2 dont have a gear treadmill." They just have a spec treadmill.

Some treadmill. Most of my characters had the new elite spec unlocked the moment they got into PoF, because I had enough points to unlock them....before even playing the expansion. Yes, new specs are better than core specs, but PoF specs aren't necessarily better than HoT specs. And they are mutually exclusive. You never have to learn druid to become a soul beast.

It's a completely different situation.

Well...you don't need to unlock specs in PVP mode. I am not addressing PVE where you do have to unlock them. I skipped this expansion...and man I am glad I did but it's definitely enjoyable. PoF Specs from my observation are better than Core and HoT Specs. Just from watching what people are running. And what they are capable of doing. I am just saying I get it now why people were so upset with HoT and now here I am upset with PoF.

I don't know I still see plenty of HoT specs when I go into PvP, but honestly, this is the case for every MMO on the planet. You buy expansions to remain relevant. No one is going to give you a game you can play forever, without spending a penny because that's how games go out of business. You either like the game, pay for expansions (every two years is nothing for a game like this) or you don't. Other MMOs pretty much universally raise the level cap and introduce new tiers of gear. If anything this game is fairer for PvP than other MMOs.

In other words, storm in a teacup.
  • Masteries are a level cap increased which is just called something else.
  • HoT gear stats are objectively better than core sets due to condi creep, and are obscenely more tedious to acquire than the same process in core.
  • The cosmetic end-game was pathetic in HoT and hardly any better in PoF.
  • The specs were (and still are) direct upgrades to core rather than the proclaimed "alternative playstyles" touted by the devs.

You never saw Distracting Shot leave the bars of GW1 Rangers because an expac suddenly added a better d-shot, and there were many more skills in the same category rather than exceptions. GW2, on the other hand, is embodied by its willingness to repeatedly destroy and abandon pre-established ideas and developmental direction on a whim. This game and its dev team made fundamental promises on content design which were broken out a mere 3 months after launch. Relevancy is one thing, but the only thing that the GW2 expansions have consistently created is bloat: either the new class specs outright supplant old options (which then effectively never see use again despite still existing) or the new specs enter into the game already rotting in a state of dis-use (because the old specs are still numerically better).

Sometimes I feel people like yourself like talking out of your kitten. The new elite specs are supposed to improve the pre-existing classes and to a certain extent, change the gameplay of the classes which, i feel, anet succeeded in doing with most classes. And "effectively never see use again?" Like what are you even saying? The meta changes with each balance patch and some specs become more relevant than others. You're only being like this because your "favourite" is performing so poorly compared to others. The most recent update at the start of the season made core thief relevant again and we can expect changes like that in the future but sure if you want to die down in that pessimistic mindset be my guest. All people like you do is complain instead of contribute to productive discussion.

Just because you have no real counterpoints doesn't mean that I'm just a big bag of humbug that everyone needs to ignore. In fact, you're no different than the people promoting the idea of "wrongthink" by demonizing opposition with name-calling.
  • Slapping a shiny new button onto a class/build which has already been played to death for 3-5 years is not a new gameplay style, no matter how overpowered that button is.
  • All of the new things that classes get are just arbitrarily better or worse versions of things that other classes already do. Nothing fundamental has changed about GW2 combat since beta.

The only reason you hear so much out of "we people" is because anet should have admitted their dreadful design mistakes long ago and now most players are just fed up of waiting for them to say it on their own.

I'm always concerned when people use the term most players. No one, and I do mean no one, can say what most players feel. We don't have that information. You can say what you feel. You can say what players like you feel. But that's all you can say with any certainty.

Because no one has a monopoly on the majority. In my opinion most players don't PvP and are coming from this game from a completely different angle than people who focus on PvP. Anet has in fact given numbers to which people predominantly play PvP over other game modes, and PvE as well. 60% of the playerbase predominantly PvE, which means most players are unlikely to be thinking the way you are.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Majirah.5089

Majirah.5089

Posted
Posted

@Vayne.8563 said:

@"Sharen Graves.1276" said:And now you see why it's GG for the game as a whole. They will never balance the core with HoT, and never balance HoT with PoF. Next Expack PoF will be knocked down a tier and core will be nothing but a myth. So they are right when they said that "GW2 dont have a gear treadmill." They just have a spec treadmill.

Some treadmill. Most of my characters had the new elite spec unlocked the moment they got into PoF, because I had enough points to unlock them....before even playing the expansion. Yes, new specs are better than core specs, but PoF specs aren't necessarily better than HoT specs. And they are mutually exclusive. You never have to learn druid to become a soul beast.

It's a completely different situation.

Well...you don't need to unlock specs in PVP mode. I am not addressing PVE where you do have to unlock them. I skipped this expansion...and man I am glad I did but it's definitely enjoyable. PoF Specs from my observation are better than Core and HoT Specs. Just from watching what people are running. And what they are capable of doing. I am just saying I get it now why people were so upset with HoT and now here I am upset with PoF.

I don't know I still see plenty of HoT specs when I go into PvP, but honestly, this is the case for every MMO on the planet. You buy expansions to remain relevant. No one is going to give you a game you can play forever, without spending a penny because that's how games go out of business. You either like the game, pay for expansions (every two years is nothing for a game like this) or you don't. Other MMOs pretty much universally raise the level cap and introduce new tiers of gear. If anything this game is fairer for PvP than other MMOs.

In other words, storm in a teacup.

This. I don’t see how people think that a game like this can just stay as is and never be updated to create additional revenue. I agree that the pvp in this game is much more fair than others I have played.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rodzynald.5897

Rodzynald.5897

Posted
Posted

@Vayne.8563 said:

@"Sharen Graves.1276" said:And now you see why it's GG for the game as a whole. They will never balance the core with HoT, and never balance HoT with PoF. Next Expack PoF will be knocked down a tier and core will be nothing but a myth. So they are right when they said that "GW2 dont have a gear treadmill." They just have a spec treadmill.

Some treadmill. Most of my characters had the new elite spec unlocked the moment they got into PoF, because I had enough points to unlock them....before even playing the expansion. Yes, new specs are better than core specs, but PoF specs aren't necessarily better than HoT specs. And they are mutually exclusive. You never have to learn druid to become a soul beast.

It's a completely different situation.

Well...you don't need to unlock specs in PVP mode. I am not addressing PVE where you do have to unlock them. I skipped this expansion...and man I am glad I did but it's definitely enjoyable. PoF Specs from my observation are better than Core and HoT Specs. Just from watching what people are running. And what they are capable of doing. I am just saying I get it now why people were so upset with HoT and now here I am upset with PoF.

I don't know I still see plenty of HoT specs when I go into PvP, but honestly, this is the case for every MMO on the planet. You buy expansions to remain relevant. No one is going to give you a game you can play forever, without spending a penny because that's how games go out of business. You either like the game, pay for expansions (every two years is nothing for a game like this) or you don't. Other MMOs pretty much universally raise the level cap and introduce new tiers of gear. If anything this game is fairer for PvP than other MMOs.

In other words, storm in a teacup.

Actually I don't see much of HoT specs, maybe that's because they melt most of the time once they start to fight with PoF specs.And I still cannot understand how people say that pvp may be "fairer for PvP than other MMOs". I am currently playing Tera and the pvp there is way better, I get the same feeling, the same good vibes coming from it as back at GW2 vanilla. Mostly just because I know that most classes are not capable of gimmicks and shenanigans or passive savings procs like in here. Once you screw up, you die, just how it should be. I really wish they made at least ONE weekend or week of turned off elite specs for pvp between seasons, so that we can roll with core on unranked and get crazy with creativity. See how that works out, it might be a good learning experience.

Oh look what I found, a link from the Tera forums. This guy would disagree with you:

You give me one thread with just a handful of players discussing on it? Sorry, an exception is not a status quo, besides, it smells like l2p issue. I would rather pick a heck strong class in one thing than something that has an access to multiple means of fighting at the same time. I've noticed what is happening, but at least I rest assured that what I fight won't suddenly go passively invulnerable the moment I am about to land a killing blow, or use some skill that gives you mobility, can't be hit while doing it and heals at the end-sort of thing. Also I don't mind 1 shots as long as they can be 1 shotted themselves.This would straighten things up a bit, to build classes around one specific thing and branch out around them, instead of slapping everything on it. As I've stated many times before, vanilla GW2 had more risk and reward to it. There was no rinse and repeat for eternity (except cele ele, that was a mistake).

I gave you one thread out of the first 1 second I did a search on it. If you're denying that's the only thread, then I don't know what to tell you. It takes a minimum amount of effort on anyone's part to find complaints about balance in games of any kind.

More to the point, with the whole 2 upvotes you've gotten in this thread it doesn't really look like you have wide scale community support for what you're actually saying. A couple of people agree with you. I wonder how this post would fair on reddit, or if downvotes were accepted.

To put it bluntly, I can't think of any MMO that doesn't add some power creep of some kind in an expansion and expansions never made a game pay to win. Pay to win has always referred to the cash shop, and micro transactions, not buying the next installment of a game. By that definition every single MMO would be pay to win, and the word itself would lose all meaning.

Pay to win, as a term, exists to let people know what's a legit MMO and which MMO you can buy power in the cash shop. In BDO for example, the person with the most healing potion wins, which can be bought in the cash shop, making BDO a pay to win game. You have to keep paying to buy more pots. In Guild Wars 2, you have to buy an expansion to stay current, same with every MMO on the planet.

People say I'm a white knight, but this post doesn't seem to have a lot of support behind it.

I've just searched Tera discussion forum for more threads with "PvP" words in it. There are only 4 pages with about 3 or 4 threads directly complaining about something, only one or two of them are of any significance and that is... hardly convincing. I don't post as much as you so of course I won't get as many thumbs, but I don't care if I get them or if anyone else gets them, I'll speak my mind anyway, this is why forums exist.

As much as HoT and PoF may appear to be p2w, as you stated, there is pretty much no good mmorpg without at least a tiny bit of p2w in it, but that is not the main point that I tried to explain, which was about jack of all trades (or more trades than they should) that are better with more power creep introduced into the game.But anyway, no matter what you say, you cannot change nor deny the fact of what this mode was and how it is now. The gradual decline in playerbase, it already happened and it happened due to powercreep as one of the main reasons. A simple comparison between different well known titles is enough to leave GW2 PvP somewhere in a dark corner. Maybe now it stays on a "stable" level, but it is just a shadow of what it once was.

On the bright note, unranked pvp is quite enjoyable during pvp season. People don't tryhard so much and it's easier to goof around :D

P.S.White knight is a term used to describe men who defend women online and expect some action in return.

Just commenting on your definition of White Knight, which I found online after looking it up. Here's the Webster dictionary definition (or one of them anyway)

"One that champions a cause."

When people use White Knight on a forum this is the usage that best fits. And while slang dictionaries do have value in certain cases, it's not the only definition of the word, and isn't the one that's generally meant. In context on a game forum, it usually means someone who champions the game or it's developers, blindly and without thought. Since I have my complaints, and don't reply to every negative thread, I would say my defense of certain aspects of the game are not blind.

I'm not going to comment on the rest of your post for fear of getting infracted. I'll stick to posting on reddit.

Very well, that is one of the possible definitions that I didn't know. As for commenting, you may send an inbox message if I am not mistaken. If you wish to do so, I'd be glad to see what you want to tell, unless you think there is no need to further go into this topic, I am okay with that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Swagg.9236

Swagg.9236

Posted
Posted

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Les.4872 said:

@"Sharen Graves.1276" said:And now you see why it's GG for the game as a whole. They will never balance the core with HoT, and never balance HoT with PoF. Next Expack PoF will be knocked down a tier and core will be nothing but a myth. So they are right when they said that "GW2 dont have a gear treadmill." They just have a spec treadmill.

Some treadmill. Most of my characters had the new elite spec unlocked the moment they got into PoF, because I had enough points to unlock them....before even playing the expansion. Yes, new specs are better than core specs, but PoF specs aren't necessarily better than HoT specs. And they are mutually exclusive. You never have to learn druid to become a soul beast.

It's a completely different situation.

Well...you don't need to unlock specs in PVP mode. I am not addressing PVE where you do have to unlock them. I skipped this expansion...and man I am glad I did but it's definitely enjoyable. PoF Specs from my observation are better than Core and HoT Specs. Just from watching what people are running. And what they are capable of doing. I am just saying I get it now why people were so upset with HoT and now here I am upset with PoF.

I don't know I still see plenty of HoT specs when I go into PvP, but honestly, this is the case for every MMO on the planet. You buy expansions to remain relevant. No one is going to give you a game you can play forever, without spending a penny because that's how games go out of business. You either like the game, pay for expansions (every two years is nothing for a game like this) or you don't. Other MMOs pretty much universally raise the level cap and introduce new tiers of gear. If anything this game is fairer for PvP than other MMOs.

In other words, storm in a teacup.
  • Masteries are a level cap increased which is just called something else.
  • HoT gear stats are objectively better than core sets due to condi creep, and are obscenely more tedious to acquire than the same process in core.
  • The cosmetic end-game was pathetic in HoT and hardly any better in PoF.
  • The specs were (and still are) direct upgrades to core rather than the proclaimed "alternative playstyles" touted by the devs.

You never saw Distracting Shot leave the bars of GW1 Rangers because an expac suddenly added a better d-shot, and there were many more skills in the same category rather than exceptions. GW2, on the other hand, is embodied by its willingness to repeatedly destroy and abandon pre-established ideas and developmental direction on a whim. This game and its dev team made fundamental promises on content design which were broken out a mere 3 months after launch. Relevancy is one thing, but the only thing that the GW2 expansions have consistently created is bloat: either the new class specs outright supplant old options (which then effectively never see use again despite still existing) or the new specs enter into the game already rotting in a state of dis-use (because the old specs are still numerically better).

Sometimes I feel people like yourself like talking out of your kitten. The new elite specs are supposed to improve the pre-existing classes and to a certain extent, change the gameplay of the classes which, i feel, anet succeeded in doing with most classes. And "effectively never see use again?" Like what are you even saying? The meta changes with each balance patch and some specs become more relevant than others. You're only being like this because your "favourite" is performing so poorly compared to others. The most recent update at the start of the season made core thief relevant again and we can expect changes like that in the future but sure if you want to die down in that pessimistic mindset be my guest. All people like you do is complain instead of contribute to productive discussion.

Just because you have no real counterpoints doesn't mean that I'm just a big bag of humbug that everyone needs to ignore. In fact, you're no different than the people promoting the idea of "wrongthink" by demonizing opposition with name-calling.
  • Slapping a shiny new button onto a class/build which has already been played to death for 3-5 years is not a new gameplay style, no matter how overpowered that button is.
  • All of the new things that classes get are just arbitrarily better or worse versions of things that other classes already do. Nothing fundamental has changed about GW2 combat since beta.

The only reason you hear so much out of "we people" is because anet should have admitted their dreadful design mistakes long ago and now most players are just fed up of waiting for them to say it on their own.

I'm always concerned when people use the term most players. No one, and I do mean no one, can say what most players feel. We don't have that information. You can say what you feel. You can say what players like you feel. But that's all you can say with any certainty.

Because no one has a monopoly on the majority. In my opinion most players don't PvP and are coming from this game from a completely different angle than people who focus on PvP. Anet has in fact given numbers to which people predominantly play PvP over other game modes, and PvE as well. 60% of the playerbase predominantly PvE, which means most players are unlikely to be thinking the way you are.

And yet if you look at this forum, it might imply that "most players" here on the PvP forum would agree that GW2 PvP is a mess. How would you explain the contemptuous threads, bewildered dispositions on balance or combat or vapid attempts to cheer people up or defend anet's decision making? Don't try to undermine my points by pretending that I'm somehow not specifically talking about PvP and its playerbase here on the PvP forum. Are you joking?

While I agree that no one person speaks for any group of people, look around you here. Moreover, your opinion isn't an argument, and it's very true that most GW2 players find grievous fault with its PvP designs given how much the game has died since launch. If you really want to talk about the true majority of GW2 players throughout the game's historical continuity since 2012, THEY'VE LEFT because GW2 is a shallow, disjointed mire of braindead designs which never receive any meaningful updates.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Posted
Posted

@Swagg.9236 said:

@Les.4872 said:

@"Sharen Graves.1276" said:And now you see why it's GG for the game as a whole. They will never balance the core with HoT, and never balance HoT with PoF. Next Expack PoF will be knocked down a tier and core will be nothing but a myth. So they are right when they said that "GW2 dont have a gear treadmill." They just have a spec treadmill.

Some treadmill. Most of my characters had the new elite spec unlocked the moment they got into PoF, because I had enough points to unlock them....before even playing the expansion. Yes, new specs are better than core specs, but PoF specs aren't necessarily better than HoT specs. And they are mutually exclusive. You never have to learn druid to become a soul beast.

It's a completely different situation.

Well...you don't need to unlock specs in PVP mode. I am not addressing PVE where you do have to unlock them. I skipped this expansion...and man I am glad I did but it's definitely enjoyable. PoF Specs from my observation are better than Core and HoT Specs. Just from watching what people are running. And what they are capable of doing. I am just saying I get it now why people were so upset with HoT and now here I am upset with PoF.

I don't know I still see plenty of HoT specs when I go into PvP, but honestly, this is the case for every MMO on the planet. You buy expansions to remain relevant. No one is going to give you a game you can play forever, without spending a penny because that's how games go out of business. You either like the game, pay for expansions (every two years is nothing for a game like this) or you don't. Other MMOs pretty much universally raise the level cap and introduce new tiers of gear. If anything this game is fairer for PvP than other MMOs.

In other words, storm in a teacup.
  • Masteries are a level cap increased which is just called something else.
  • HoT gear stats are objectively better than core sets due to condi creep, and are obscenely more tedious to acquire than the same process in core.
  • The cosmetic end-game was pathetic in HoT and hardly any better in PoF.
  • The specs were (and still are) direct upgrades to core rather than the proclaimed "alternative playstyles" touted by the devs.

You never saw Distracting Shot leave the bars of GW1 Rangers because an expac suddenly added a better d-shot, and there were many more skills in the same category rather than exceptions. GW2, on the other hand, is embodied by its willingness to repeatedly destroy and abandon pre-established ideas and developmental direction on a whim. This game and its dev team made fundamental promises on content design which were broken out a mere 3 months after launch. Relevancy is one thing, but the only thing that the GW2 expansions have consistently created is bloat: either the new class specs outright supplant old options (which then effectively never see use again despite still existing) or the new specs enter into the game already rotting in a state of dis-use (because the old specs are still numerically better).

Sometimes I feel people like yourself like talking out of your kitten. The new elite specs are supposed to improve the pre-existing classes and to a certain extent, change the gameplay of the classes which, i feel, anet succeeded in doing with most classes. And "effectively never see use again?" Like what are you even saying? The meta changes with each balance patch and some specs become more relevant than others. You're only being like this because your "favourite" is performing so poorly compared to others. The most recent update at the start of the season made core thief relevant again and we can expect changes like that in the future but sure if you want to die down in that pessimistic mindset be my guest. All people like you do is complain instead of contribute to productive discussion.

Just because you have no real counterpoints doesn't mean that I'm just a big bag of humbug that everyone needs to ignore. In fact, you're no different than the people promoting the idea of "wrongthink" by demonizing opposition with name-calling.
  • Slapping a shiny new button onto a class/build which has already been played to death for 3-5 years is not a new gameplay style, no matter how overpowered that button is.
  • All of the new things that classes get are just arbitrarily better or worse versions of things that other classes already do. Nothing fundamental has changed about GW2 combat since beta.

The only reason you hear so much out of "we people" is because anet should have admitted their dreadful design mistakes long ago and now most players are just fed up of waiting for them to say it on their own.

I'm always concerned when people use the term most players. No one, and I do mean no one, can say what most players feel. We don't have that information. You can say what you feel. You can say what players like you feel. But that's all you can say with any certainty.

Because no one has a monopoly on the majority. In my opinion most players don't PvP and are coming from this game from a completely different angle than people who focus on PvP. Anet has in fact given numbers to which people predominantly play PvP over other game modes, and PvE as well. 60% of the playerbase predominantly PvE, which means most players are unlikely to be thinking the way you are.

And yet if you look at this forum, it might imply that "most players" here on the PvP forum would agree that GW2 PvP is a mess. How would you explain the contemptuous threads, bewildered dispositions on balance or combat or vapid attempts to cheer people up or defend anet's decision making? Don't try to undermine my points by pretending that I'm somehow not specifically talking about PvP and its playerbase here on the PvP forum. Are you joking?

While I agree that no one person speaks for any group of people, look around you here. Moreover, your opinion isn't an argument, and it's very true that most GW2 players find grievous fault with its PvP designs given how much the game has died since launch. If you really want to talk about the true majority of GW2 players throughout the game's historical continuity since 2012, THEY'VE LEFT because GW2 is a shallow, disjointed mire of braindead designs which never receive any meaningful updates.

If you read the forums, you'd have come to the conclusion that most people wanted hard challenging content, and when HoT came out, suddenly most posters didn't want hard content after all. If you went by the forums most people didn't want mounts and yet suddenly mounts are the toast of the town. There was a dev from Lotro who left the company and afterwards said that only 10% of the population in that game ever raided or PvPed in the history of the game, yet those people accounted for 50% of the forum posts. Unfortunately, people only tend to post when they want to complain. You're seeing people posting that are unhappy. It's very very dangerous to see that as some sort of majority....because at least 75% of the games population will never post on a forum. They'll never know what's being said or not said, and they'll often have a completely different opinion.

The people who post on forums are the most vested and probably the most jaded people in the game. But that doesn't make them a majority even if they're a majority of forum posters, because forum posters are always a vast minority in any game.

You'll get a decent amount of posts and videos about raiding and PvP on Twitch and in reddit, enough so that if you only looked at that, you'd think the playerbase was mostly made up of raiders and PvPers, but this isn't even close to the case.

As for the true majority of this game's population having left, that's true of every single MMO in existence including WoW. I'm not, however, sure of what that proves. Some people leave because they get sick or injured. Because their internet connection sucks. Because they get married and have no time. People leave games for all sorts of reasons. This is like confirmation bias.

More people have left WOW that have ever played Guild Wars 2. That doesn't say anything at all. Some people bounce from game to game habitually and those people were always going to leave. No one can tell you what percentage of the population they are.

You have a strong opinion and so you deeply believe that more people share that opinion than don't. That's something we see over and over again in every single aspect of the game. It's just not usually the case. MMO player bases are very fragmented and seldom agree in anything. There's almost never a majority for anything. But there are many loud vocal minorities....including the demographic that I find myself in.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rodzynald.5897

Rodzynald.5897

Posted
Posted

Swagg is actually right. The majority of PvP playerbase that posts on forum are not very pleased and I don't remember the forum being so cluttered with complaints before HoT. But what there is to expect if PvE balances PvP and only power creep is introduced? At least the condition change was a good step forward. If this is not enough, it is not hard to enter HoTM and talk with people there, almost everyone will say more or less the same, that pvp is in a derelict state.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Killthehealersffs.8940

Killthehealersffs.8940

Posted
Posted

@Rodzynald.5897 said:Swagg is actually right. The majority of PvP playerbase that posts on forum are not very pleased and I don't remember the forum being so cluttered with complaints before HoT.

You should be carefull with that selective memory :PWhat if i started posting left and right :''Whoever have problems with Necros they should L2P and get a more defensive Spec or even change class .You should learn to avoid the F5 + Ulti that does the majority of the damage ''

And what you would normaly would say to counter my argument ?''I dont want to change my classI dont want to play bunker , because theres problematic class that has extremly low Attack AnimationsI dont want to change class , beacause.................I dont want to change class, because the Blanace team do a sucky workIf the majority used Bunkers , then we will have aBunkers Wars again ?''

These are so much 2013 casual respanses , i would say :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rodzynald.5897

Rodzynald.5897

Posted
Posted

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

@Rodzynald.5897 said:Swagg is actually right. The majority of PvP playerbase that posts on forum are not very pleased and I don't remember the forum being so cluttered with complaints before HoT.

You should be carefull with that selective memory :PWhat if i started posting left and right :''Whoever have problems with Necros they should L2P and get a more defensive Spec or even change class .You should learn to avoid the F5 + Ulti that does the majority of the damage ''

And what you would normaly would say to counter my argument ?''I dont want to change my classI dont want to play bunker , because theres problematic class that has extremly low Attack AnimationsI dont want to change class , beacause.................I dont want to change class, because the Blanace team do a sucky workIf the majority used Bunkers , then we will have aBunkers Wars again ?''

These are so much 2013 casual respanses , i would say :P

But I don't have problems with scourges.... what are you trying to say? Of course there were complaints before HoT, there always are, most of them were about cele ele. But compared to the issues then and the issues now, what was years ago is a piece of cake.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Killthehealersffs.8940

Killthehealersffs.8940

Posted
Posted

@Rodzynald.5897 said:

@Rodzynald.5897 said:Swagg is actually right. The majority of PvP playerbase that posts on forum are not very pleased and I don't remember the forum being so cluttered with complaints before HoT.

You should be carefull with that selective memory :PWhat if i started posting left and right :''Whoever have problems with Necros they should L2P and get a more defensive Spec or even change class .You should learn to avoid the F5 + Ulti that does the majority of the damage ''

And what you would normaly would say to counter my argument ?''I dont want to change my classI dont want to play bunker , because theres problematic class that has extremly low Attack AnimationsI dont want to change class , beacause.................I dont want to change class, because the Blanace team do a sucky workIf the majority used Bunkers , then we will have aBunkers Wars again ?''

These are so much 2013 casual respanses , i would say :P

But I don't have problems with scourges.... what are you trying to say? Of course there were complaints before HoT, there always are, most of them were about cele ele. But compared to the issues then and the issues now, what was years ago is a piece of cake.

You mean thiefs 1-shots (or for the 4 months of 2013 , Heartseeker didnt have a restriction and could crit for 4,5k for whatever your % hp was ? Just ask Drybear that made a video and then wen to some other silly casual game:P )Or 3300 crit spamm Dancing Dagger

Mesmer's Berseker Illution could crit for 8k , while them Mage-1 that apply comfusion could do 4k crit .Mesmers that could stack 15 might , when when used F1 (almost 1-shot spec)

Bomb/Granade Condition with Rapid gear (sasha)

Trapper Condition Rangers ( the pet did 17-22% more dps , but they had 8k hp)

Stunlock mace+shield/Hammer warrios+ 50% increased damage to stuned targets Trait (september-octomber 2013)

The only properly risk vs rewards 1-shot specs , where the Ele with the Dragontooh combo and the septer+focus/Hammer Radiance specs .But noooo , the thiefs where the ones mostly to whine thatRide of the Lighting was on 20 sec cd ...

This is only the 2012-2013 era , and ppl whined too .Its not something new ... just ppl went from defending their class and labeling L2P to others , to be the ones left behind to whine about balance

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rodzynald.5897

Rodzynald.5897

Posted
Posted

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

@Rodzynald.5897 said:Swagg is actually right. The majority of PvP playerbase that posts on forum are not very pleased and I don't remember the forum being so cluttered with complaints before HoT.

You should be carefull with that selective memory :PWhat if i started posting left and right :''Whoever have problems with Necros they should L2P and get a more defensive Spec or even change class .You should learn to avoid the F5 + Ulti that does the majority of the damage ''

And what you would normaly would say to counter my argument ?''I dont want to change my classI dont want to play bunker , because theres problematic class that has extremly low Attack AnimationsI dont want to change class , beacause.................I dont want to change class, because the Blanace team do a sucky workIf the majority used Bunkers , then we will have aBunkers Wars again ?''

These are so much 2013 casual respanses , i would say :P

But I don't have problems with scourges.... what are you trying to say? Of course there were complaints before HoT, there always are, most of them were about cele ele. But compared to the issues then and the issues now, what was years ago is a piece of cake.

You mean thiefs 1-shots (or for the 4 months of 2013 , Heartseeker didnt have a restriction and could crit for 4,5k for whatever your % hp was ? Just ask Drybear that made a video and then wen to some other silly casual game:P )Or 3300 crit spamm Dancing Dagger

Mesmer's Berseker Illution could crit for 8k , while them Mage-1 that apply comfusion could do 4k crit .Mesmers that could stack 15 might , when when used F1 (almost 1-shot spec)

Bomb/Granade Condition with Rapid gear (sasha)

Trapper Condition Rangers ( the pet did 17-22% more dps , but they had 8k hp)

Stunlock mace+shield/Hammer warrios+ 50% increased damage to stuned targets Trait (september-octomber 2013)

The only properly risk vs rewards 1-shot specs , where the Ele with the Dragontooh combo and the septer+focus/Hammer Radiance specs .But noooo , the thiefs where the ones mostly to whine thatRide of the Lighting was on 20 sec cd ...

This is only the 2012-2013 era , and ppl whined too .Its not something new ... just ppl went from defending their class and labeling L2P to others , to be the ones left behind to whine about balance

I wonder why I've never had any significant problems with any of those issues that you described. However, the thing I found challenging were necros and sometimes rangers, thieves could bite hard indeed, but they were amusingly squishy as well, mesmers too, of course they were able to smack down when I made a mistake or two, just as it should be, but when they made a bad choice, it was their turn to hit the ground, fast and simple, no gimmicks attached... at least not so many as nowadays. What you describe was indeed strong, but it could be countered reasonably, baited so that the enemy wastes their initial bursts, this is how I played back then.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Killthehealersffs.8940

Killthehealersffs.8940

Posted
Posted

The current meta is simply too :You try to kill Necros and Warriors from farTry to Kill , before you get killed by the Sniper thief or Holo EnginnerElementalist are the 2013 Swap-kit enginnersYou try to slow-kite the illutions of the MesmersRevenant is a a a a a offensive team buffer or buffe (somthing tellsmethat the community wants strong fighters to be introduced in each x-pack , rather than something to be used in teamfights)

Why all the crying from the current community ? PGetting old ? :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Killthehealersffs.8940

Killthehealersffs.8940

Posted
Posted

@Rodzynald.5897 said:Okay... whatever you say. So then what is the true reason in the decline of pvp community over all these pvp seasons? Is it something else then?

So lets get in straightPPl whined in the past , but lets dismiss it because they are casualsPPl whine now , lets create a Riot or Smoten by MauiPpl having their favoretime class outshined by other , blame the Company

Some whiners (20) leaving the game is no biggy :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rodzynald.5897

Rodzynald.5897

Posted
Posted

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

@"Rodzynald.5897" said:Okay... whatever you say. So then what is the true reason in the decline of pvp community over all these pvp seasons? Is it something else then?

So lets get in straightPPl whined in the past , but lets dismiss it because they are casualsPPl whine now , lets create a Riot or Smoten by MauiPpl having their favoretime class outshined by other , blame the Company

Some whiners (20) leaving the game is no biggy :P

Hmm... since when PvP streamers are whiners? A lot of them left and even if some of them still stream, like Sindrener, is there anyone else who stays as relevant as in the past? So you say that only the best players stay in the game now, right? By the way, those "whiners" made up a huge chunk of pvp community in the past. I highly doubt they were all scrubs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Killthehealersffs.8940

Killthehealersffs.8940

Posted
Posted

@Rodzynald.5897 said:

@Rodzynald.5897 said:Okay... whatever you say. So then what is the true reason in the decline of pvp community over all these pvp seasons? Is it something else then?

So lets get in straightPPl whined in the past , but lets dismiss it because they are casualsPPl whine now , lets create a Riot or Smoten by MauiPpl having their favoretime class outshined by other , blame the Company

Some whiners (20) leaving the game is no biggy :P

Hmm... since when PvP streamers are whiners? A lot of them left and even if some of them still stream, like Sindrener, is there anyone else who stays as relevant as in the past? So you say that only the best players stay in the game now, right? By the way, those "whiners" made up a huge chunk of pvp community in the past. I highly doubt they were all scrubs.

War Mach.....ete (2010 movie) the top guild from GW1 , whinned that the game was too anti-meele and quitted 7 months later .(when the WvWvW trains where mainly Warrior +SpeedBoonbots Guardians with reflections and area denial) .Pro comes and go :P

Puff , who cares about casuals .They should focus on infrastructure + replay bottun+ pause bottun

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Aplethoraof.2643

Aplethoraof.2643

Posted
Posted

Core specs still work well, even now.

Core Warrior is still fine.Core Mesmer is still fine.Core Guardian is still fine.Core Engineer is still fine.Core Ranger is still fine.Core Elementalist is still fine.

HoT specs are still relevant too.

Dare Devil is still fine.Tempest is still fine.Chronomancer is still fine.Scrapper is still fine.Reaper is still fine.Druid is still fine.Herald is still fine.Berserker is still fine.

I'd say build diversity is at an all time high, despite the perceived power creep. There was a time where there was one build. "Berserker or GTFO", was the old meta. The condition patch (which brought conditions in line with power) gave us more diversity, without taking away from the old power builds. HoT did the same thing, introducing more builds.

I'd say the only real exception are Dare Devil and Reaper. Core Necromancer and Core Thief pale in comparison to their HoT/PoF specs, something that should be fixed by revisiting the more useless core trees. But, I doubt that'll happen. (I can hooope though!)

Link to comment
Share on other sites
reddie.5861

reddie.5861

Posted
Posted

@Vayne.8563 said:

@"Sharen Graves.1276" said:And now you see why it's GG for the game as a whole. They will never balance the core with HoT, and never balance HoT with PoF. Next Expack PoF will be knocked down a tier and core will be nothing but a myth. So they are right when they said that "GW2 dont have a gear treadmill." They just have a spec treadmill.

Some treadmill. Most of my characters had the new elite spec unlocked the moment they got into PoF, because I had enough points to unlock them....before even playing the expansion. Yes, new specs are better than core specs, but PoF specs aren't necessarily better than HoT specs. And they are mutually exclusive. You never have to learn druid to become a soul beast.

It's a completely different situation.

ofcourse the new elites are better..hey guys we have new expansion, u dont have to buy it in order to play sPvP but we did secretly make the new classes OP at something so ull be tempted to buy it :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rodzynald.5897

Rodzynald.5897

Posted
Posted

@"Aplethoraof.2643" said:Core specs still work well, even now.

Core Warrior is still fine.Core Mesmer is still fine.Core Guardian is still fine.Core Engineer is still fine.Core Ranger is still fine.Core Elementalist is still fine.

HoT specs are still relevant too.

Dare Devil is still fine.Tempest is still fine.Chronomancer is still fine.Scrapper is still fine.Reaper is still fine.Druid is still fine.Herald is still fine.Berserker is still fine.

I'd say build diversity is at an all time high, despite the perceived power creep. There was a time where there was one build. "Berserker or GTFO", was the old meta. The condition patch (which brought conditions in line with power) gave us more diversity, without taking away from the old power builds. HoT did the same thing, introducing more builds.

I'd say the only real exception are Dare Devil and Reaper. Core Necromancer and Core Thief pale in comparison to their HoT/PoF specs, something that should be fixed by revisiting the more useless core trees. But, I doubt that'll happen. (I can hooope though!)

It is what you find on metabattle, but that is just on paper, isn't it? How many of those you really see in PvP? And even when you see them a few times, are they good enough to stand toe to toe with S tiers? Just because something is told somewhere, doesn't mean it is still relevant. You can use those builds, but it's just a handicap compared to what S tier offers. During ranked matches I have not met enough examples out of 8 of those builds, to take them as relevant statistic (there were like 1 or 2 players every few dozens of matches). Two of them are seldom (reaper, scrapper) and herald can be seen from time to time, as well as the one that you forgot, dragonhunter (mostly symbolic variant). Only druid and daredevil are the ones who are truly relevant out of all those you mentioned. So no, not every HoT spec is relevant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Go to topic listing
GuildWars2.com
ArenaNet

©2020 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. All trademarks are the property of their respective owners.

ESRB - Teen
×
×
  • Create New...